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This page allows you to examine the variables generated by the Edit Filter for an individual change.
Variables generated for this change
Variable | Value |
---|---|
Edit count of the user (user_editcount ) | 20043 |
Name of the user account (user_name ) | 'Newimpartial' |
Age of the user account (user_age ) | 447365486 |
Groups (including implicit) the user is in (user_groups ) | [
0 => 'extendedconfirmed',
1 => '*',
2 => 'user',
3 => 'autoconfirmed'
] |
Rights that the user has (user_rights ) | [
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1 => 'createaccount',
2 => 'read',
3 => 'edit',
4 => 'createtalk',
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29 => 'mwoauthmanagemygrants',
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34 => 'editsemiprotected',
35 => 'skipcaptcha',
36 => 'ipinfo',
37 => 'ipinfo-view-basic',
38 => 'transcode-reset',
39 => 'transcode-status',
40 => 'createpagemainns',
41 => 'movestable',
42 => 'autoreview'
] |
Whether the user is blocked (user_blocked ) | false |
Whether the user is editing from mobile app (user_app ) | false |
Whether or not a user is editing through the mobile interface (user_mobile ) | false |
Page ID (page_id ) | 68171989 |
Page namespace (page_namespace ) | 3 |
Page title without namespace (page_title ) | 'Gitz6666' |
Full page title (page_prefixedtitle ) | 'User talk:Gitz6666' |
Edit protection level of the page (page_restrictions_edit ) | [] |
Page age in seconds (page_age ) | 39636075 |
Action (action ) | 'edit' |
Edit summary/reason (summary ) | '/* Standard ArbCom discretionary sanctions notice */ new section' |
Old content model (old_content_model ) | 'wikitext' |
New content model (new_content_model ) | 'wikitext' |
Old page wikitext, before the edit (old_wikitext ) | '{{Ds/aware|e-e}}
{{Ds/aware|ipa}}
{{Ds/aware|tpm}}
== A belated welcome! ==
[[File:Chocolate chip cookies.jpg|thumb|The welcome may be belated, but the cookies are still warm! {{smiley}}]]
Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, Gitz6666! I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|your contributions]]. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may still benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Again, welcome! '''[[User:AngryHarpy|<span style="color:#6363ed">Angry</span><span style="color:#a863ed">Harpy</span>]]'''<span style="visibility:hidden; color:transparent; padding-left:2px">{{zero width joiner}}</span><sup><small>[[User talk:AngryHarpy|<span style="color:#63a8ed">talk</span>]]</small></sup> 16:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)<!-- Template:Welcome-belated -->
==Arrivederci altrove==
Caro {{Reply to|Pequod76}} ti rispondo qui, anziché sulla tua talk, perché mi sono accorto che questa risposta, anche se è per te, non è solo per te. Preferisco quindi questo spazio. <br>
Su una cosa voglio rassicurarti subito. Non ho rinunciato affatto alla “battaglia di principio” più importante, scrivere l'enciclopedia. Semplicemente, penso di poterla portare avanti altrove, in modo più proficuo e meno stressante: qui su en.wiki, spero, e in altri luoghi di ricerca. La mia risposta a Gianfranco è stata ben ponderata, era pronta da tempo e sono fiducioso che mi porterà più felicità e lavoro produttivo. L'adesione al progetto quindi non è cessata, si è solo trasferita di sede.<br>
La verità è che collaborare con voi è troppo faticoso, almeno per me. Non mi riferisco a te personalmente: tu sei prezioso, Pequod, sai quanto ti stimo. E come per te, ho stima per molti altri: '''[[:it:Utente:Frognall|Frognall]], [[:it:Utente:Carmela Angela|Carmela Angela]], [[:it:Utente:LarManLor|LarManLor]], [[:it:Utente:Giannidice|Giannidice]], [[:it:Utente:Cloj|Cloj]], [[:it:Utente:Mαρκος|Mαρκος]], [[:it:Utente:Parma1983|Parma1983]], [[:it:Utente:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]], [[:it:Utente:WalrusMichele|WalrusMichele]], [[:it:Utente:Etienne|Etienne]], [[:it:Utente:Sakretsu|Sakretsu]], [[:it:Utente:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]]''' e chissà quanti ne dimentico (ho ovviamente perso le mie pagine di discussione). Posso collaborare benissimo anche con persone con cui sono spesso in disaccordo, come '''Kirk39, TrinacrianGolem o Tommasucci'''. Persino '''Ignis''' ho molto rivalutato col tempo: penso che la colpa di quel che è successo tra noi sia soprattutto nella patologica insufficienza dei meccanismi di soluzione dei conflitti su it.wiki. E non mi riferisco alla mancanza dell'ArbCom, ma al fatto che gli admin di regola si astengono, se possibile, dalle discussioni tra un collega e un utente sconosciuto, sospetto "problematico", e quando partecipano evitano di prendere apertamente posizione a favore di quest'ultimo. Altro che ArbCom, su it.wiki non ci sono nemmeno la mediazione e la RdP! Come possono funzionare bene le cose così?<br>
Ho fatto questo elenco (incompleto) di utenti perché mi dispiace non averli potuti salutare e in alcuni casi nemmeno conoscere, cioè non abbiamo quasi interagito. Mi piacerebbe trovare un modo per far loro arrivare il mio congedo e ringraziamento (puoi aiutarmi in questo?). Avete utenti preziosi su it.wiki ma l’ambiente – soprattutto l’adminship e alcune utenze storiche – è spesso inospitale. Potrei sbagliare su questo, ma sono convinto che la ragione sia che, non essendovi mai dati delle procedure, non siete nemmeno riusciti a sviluppare una cultura interna della ''fairness'': nessun tipo di equanimità e distacco. In mancanza di procedure, qualsiasi tipo di autorità – anche quella che si basa sul prestigio, sull’esperienza e dedizione al progetto – prima o poi è condannata ad essere “cricca”, cioè potere arbitrario personale. Lo è agli occhi degli outsider, che facilmente si sentono umiliati e trattati ingiustamente, e lo è nei fatti. <br>
L’ultimo episodio non voglio commentarlo, tanto è chiaro e lampante. Dopo quel che è successo su quella pagina, che è sotto gli occhi di tutti, il cartellino giallo me lo becco io? Anzi, due cartellini gialli, se consideriamo la vicenda del Manuale di stile. Come è possibile giustificare quel genere di aggressioni? Rispondimi Pequod, per favore: ti sembrano conformi alle linee-guida del progetto o sono abusi? Se pensi che quei cartellini gialli e tutta la dinamica che li ha prodotti siano giustificabili, allora ha pienamente ragione Gianfranco: ''incompatibilità con il Progetto'' (non però ''violazione irredimibile della WikiQuette'', quella no: io sono sempre stato testardo, ma educato e rispettoso con tutti). <br>
Comunque in quell’ambiente non posso lavorare sereno, e non riesco a pensare una ragione per restare. Da tempo le persone che mi vogliono bene si stupiscono e mi chiedono chi me lo faccia fare: perché accettare quelle dinamiche degradanti, avendo del resto io altre cose importanti di cui occuparmi (due figlie, una moglie e un lavoro)? Alla fine a questa domanda non sono più riuscito a trovare una risposta sensata, di qui la decisione di andarmene. Ma, ti ripeto, non ho nessuna intenzione di rinunciare alla “battaglia”: il mio andarmene è un “arrivederci altrove”. Ti auguro buon tutto, spero che prima o poi riusciate a risolvere i problemi che vi travagliano e che, temo, non coincidono con la mia contribuzione (quella ve la siete tolta), problemi che potrebbero tormentare altri utenti in futuro come lo hanno fatto in passato. Ma se tu avessi bisogno di qualcosa, wikipidianamente parlando, mi trovi qui. Non ho nessun rancore verso di te e spero che ci potremo incontrare ancora.<br>
P.S. e fate qualcosa per la storia dei concetti, su! Il mio STUB fa schifo e non è pubblicabile, IMHO, ma il tema merita il lavoro di qualcuno, prima o poi. --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:Ti ringrazio per la tua risposta. Mi spiace che tu abbia vissuto così male il tuo tempo su it.wiki. sono lontano dal pensare che gli amministratori di it.wiki siano perfetti o infallibili. Solo ritengo che una convivenza poteva essere cercata e trovata, sviluppando una fiducia reciproca. Ora non posso dilungarmi. Intanto un caro saluto. [[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]] ([[User talk:Pequod76|talk-ita.esp.eng]]) 10:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]] Volevo chiederti: ci sarebbe modo di avere (ovviamente via email) un copia-e-incolla della mia user page su it.wiki? Stupidamente non ho pensato di farla, anche se Gianfranco mi ha lasciato il tempo, credo proprio per questa ragione (o forse per recuperare la sandbox). Come sai, usavo la mia user page come "diario di viaggio", con appunti sulle cose che via via facevo o su cui intervenivo. Ho una pessima memoria e devo usare supporti esterni. Sarebbe possibile riaverla, ad uso di archivio personale? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 11:29, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:::Mi dispiace molto, davero molto per quello che è successo. E mi fa ritornare in mente un altro utente prezioso che abbiamo perso, come Xinstalker. Mi sono permessa di inserire i link alle persone che dicevi che avresti voluto salutare (in questo modo arrivano a loro le notifiche), ti ringrazio per la stima, la stessa che ho nei tuoi confronti. Trovi la tua pagina utente [https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Utente:Gitz6666&oldid=125092344 qui], così te la puoi salvare. Un abbraccio, ci vediamo in giro, non ti perderò di vista, stai certo. --[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia]] ([[User talk:Camelia.boban|talk]]) 20:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
::::Ciao Gitz, volevo solo dirti che mi dispiace per quanto successo : quando un utente vive male la sua contribuzione all'enciclopedia, tanto da pensare di non poter cercare e raggiungere una convivenza e che andarsene sia la scelta migliore, sicuramente qualcosa non ha funzionato. E ogni utente che se ne va è una perdita per it.wiki. Spero che ti sentirai più a tuo agio nel continuare a contribuire qui. Un saluto! --[[User:Postcrosser|Postcrosser]] ([[User talk:Postcrosser|talk]]) 23:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:::::Cara @[[User:Postcrosser| Postcrosser]], grazie. Ti confesso una cosa: in una prima stesura del messaggio qui sopra, ti avevo indicata tra le utenze che volevo ringraziare e salutare. Poi ho tolto il nome perché ho pensato che mi avresti considerato pazzo: a parte una volta, in cui mi hai dato un’indicazione per la questione degli interlink di Sofistica (se non sbaglio), non abbiamo mai avuto occasione di collaborare. Ma io “da lontano” ho apprezzato il tuo stile (senza contare che sei genovese come me) e quindi questo tuo messaggio mi fa piacere – grazie. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:38, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::::Ti ringrazio @[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]] per la pagina utente! Mi hai consentito di ritrovare anche le pagine di discussione (non sapevo che fosse possibile) e quindi le tracce di alcune utenze che avevo dimenticato nei ringraziamenti: '''Dapifer''' e '''Bologai''', di cui ho molta stima, '''Gambo7''', '''Threecharlie''', '''Bultro''' e '''Lorenzo Longo''', che sono stati utili e gentili, '''Popop''', con cui ho potuto interagire in modo civile anche quando in disaccordo, e soprattutto la cara '''Geoide''', che mi aveva dato qualche consiglio tempo fa, e le cui vecchie conversazioni ho potuto leggere per iniziare a conoscere il modo wikipediano. Che peccato che si sia allontanata dal progetto – anche lei, temo, amareggiata. Quanto al confronto che fai tra me e Xinstalker, è ovviamente sbagliato e troppo generoso: lui ha contribuito alla vita e ai contenuti di it.wiki 100 volte più di me, nessun paragone è possibile. Ma il confronto è calzante in questo: l’UP con la quale è stato infinitato è il segnale di un problema. Mi aveva colpito e, assieme ad altri materiali letti nel tempo e alle mie esperienze personali, aveva contribuito a formare la mia cattiva opinione delle modalità di soluzione dei conflitti di it.wiki. Leggendo quell’UP una cosa è chiara come il sole: una decisone presa in quel modo non è tale da poter essere accettata come legittima da chi non ne condiva già il contenuto. Ma le procedure non servono (solo) a prendere meno decisioni sbagliate, servono anche a far accettare le decisioni (giuste o sbagliate che siano) a chi non le condivide nel merito. Le cose non possono funzionare così e da questo punto di vista, e solo da questo, il confronto tra me e Xinstalker, tra i miei due cartellini gialli e la sua UP, è convincente. Ma soprattutto, cara Camelia, grazie di cuore per il tuo lavoro su it.wiki, di cui ho capito bene l’importanza per molte/i. La tua stima mi onora. Un abbraccio, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
== Messaggio per te ==
Ciao Gitz6666, non ho pratica di questa wiki, ma ti voglio esprimere la mia vicinanza e il rammarico di aver ricevuto la segnalazione della discussione sull'arbitrato troppo tardi. Io non credo di contare gran che in it.wiki, ma il tuo lavoro sul Protestantesimo ha fatto nascere in me la speranza che si potesse collaborare, tu su quel versante, io su quello cattolico. Ti stimo per la caratura delle tue capacità e per aver sognato una realtà più concreta, umana, tollerante. Ti abbraccio e mi auguro che si facciano avanti anche altri: grazie di tutto. --[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]] ([[User talk:AmaliaMM|talk]]) 17:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]] Ti ringrazio per il messaggio affettuoso. Ho apprezzato le nostre discussioni e soprattutto la qualità eccellente del tuo lavoro: it.wiki è davvero fortunata ad averti. Mi rammarico che là non sarà più possibile cooperare, ma ogni tanto verrò a vedere come procede il vostro lavoro (silenziosamente - ca va sans dire). Se in futuro avrai bisogno della mia cooperazione wikipediana, mi trovi qui e sarò sempre disponibile per te! Un caro saluto, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:17, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
::Hai anche la stima di un atea, ho apprezzato molto i tuoi commenti sulle ultime voci sulle quali ha lavorato {{ping|LorManLor}} e che sono state poi dichiarate di qualità. La misura con le queli lo hai fatto, l'approfondimento e la citazione colta. A presto 🤗. --[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia]] ([[User talk:Camelia.boban|talk]]) 20:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:::<small>In realtà @[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]], @[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]], @[[:it:Utente:LorManLor|LorManLor]], anch’io sono ateo come Camelia. Sono finito a occuparmi di Lutero e di luterani su it.wiki quasi per puro caso, perché mi interessa l’età moderna e la costruzione dello stato. Di nuovo grazie per tutto, un abbraccio e buon lavoro su it.wiki!</small> [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:::::Ciao Gitz, sono molto molto dispiaciuta per quello che è successo, sia dal punto di vista umano che per la perdita per it.wiki della collaborazione di un utente così prezioso come te, ritengo sia uno spreco terribile che doveva essere evitato in tutti i modi. Grazie per la tua competenza, gentilezza, e anche sì, testardaggine nel sostenere il tuo punto di vista, che ritengo legittimo e motivato. Spero possiamo incrociarci ancora, auguri per tutto, un fortissimo abbraccio.[[User:LorManLor|LorManLor]] ([[User talk:LorManLor|talk]]) 12:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::::Grazie @[[User:LorManLor|LorManLor]] per il messaggio gentile e per le tre belle voci di cui ho potuto discutere con te. Complimenti per il bel lavoro e per i riconoscimenti meritatissimi! Un abbraccio, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Mi unisco anche io, dato che ora è toccato a me un blocco che trovo eccessivo.--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 11:23, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
:Tre mesi di blocco per aver fatto gli auguri di buona Pasqua? Mi spiace, @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], non ti amareggiare e lasciali perdere. --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:05, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
::Ti ringrazio. Un saluto anche ad [[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]], qui sopra di me, sperando porti avanti il suo lavoro che avevo già notato in molte occasioni.--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 12:08, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
:::Caro @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], toglimi una curiosità. Che cosa avevi scritto di così intollerabile nella pagina "Controversie legate a Wikipedia" poco prima di essere bloccato per 3 mesi per aver fatto gli auguri di Pasqua? Mi riferisco alla "Modifica decisamente fuori luogo", che è stata addirittura oscurata. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:21, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
== Mi spiace... ==
... di essermi accorto di quanto stava accadendo quando ormai la frittata era fatta. Forse (e sottolineo <u>forse</u>!) avrei potuto provare a darti qualche umile consiglio su come porti in certi frangenti, ossia astenersi dal rimbeccare a caldo, contare fino a mille e magari cambiare pagina e passare a occuparsi d'altro. In parte scherzo, e in parte no. Normale che ci siano vedute diverse tra gli utenti di una wiki, come pure tra wiki diverse. Se in tante wiki l'arbitrato è già una realtà, questo non significa che debba essere presente anche su it.wiki. Forse, banalmente, i tempi non sono maturi, inutile incaponirsi per accelerarli, ammesso pure che un giorno ci arriveremo, inutile un muro contro muro che ha spesso conseguenze spiacevoli, molto spiacevoli. Ci sono cose che io non condivido, ma <u>'''SE'''</u> l'obiettivo primario è collaborare al Progetto, tutto il resto deve passare in secondo piano, accettiamo serenamente anche le regole che meno ci piacciono e ''tiremm innanz''. Pensa che giusto ieri sera t'avevo mandato un ping per Caravaggio, sperando così di risolvere un aspetto che avevi segnalato, e quando Tommasucci mi ha fatto notare quello che era successo sono rimasto senza parole. Ti esprimo il mio sincero apprezzamento per come ti ho visto operare nella rubrica e ti saluto cordialmente. --[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] ([[User talk:Er Cicero|talk]]) 09:18, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
P.S.: peccato, davvero peccato per come è andata, ma lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile.
: Caro {{Reply to|Er Cicero}}, grazie per il messaggio. Non dubito che tu abbia ragione: in molte occasioni avrei potuto evitare di replicare. Si è trattato di botta e risposta in cui a replicare eravamo in due, e credo che i miei toni fossero meno aggressivi e inappropriati di quelli del mio interlocutore, ma è certo che <u>'''SE'''</u> avessi avuto una più forte spinta a rimanere su it.wiki, mi sarei dovuto comportare diversamente. E anche sull'arbitrato è probabile che tu abbia ragione. Più che proporre una soluzione determinata (l'arbitrato), forse non utile né attuabile, io intendevo richiamare l'attenzione su un problema secondo me reale; ma chissà che certi comportamenti prevaricatori, contrari alle linee guida, non possano essere affrontati senza bisogno di nuove regole, con la collaborazione di tutti, prima di "escalare" in conflitti distruttivi, che fanno male a tutti. Unica cosa, non capisco a che cosa ti riferisci con ''lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile''; se ti riferisci alla mia risposta a Gianfranco, forse è stata imperdonabile ma - come spiegavo qui sopra a Pequod - ti assicuro che non è stata uno sbrocco. A parte questo, sono felice di potermi congratulare con te per l'ottimo lavoro che ti ho visto fare in questi mesi nelle procedure di qualità. Non è un lavoro facile e si regge in gran parte sulle tue spalle. Complimenti! --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::Beh, secondo me "non mi interessa collaborare con dei prepotenti (o meglio, sotto il dominio dei prepotenti,...)" te lo potevi risparmiare, così come la chiosa ironica "Buon divertimento nel piccolo mondo virtuale che vi siete inventati, spero che siate contenti del vostro lavoro". E' stato un modo per chiedere tu stesso di chiudere la tua esperienza su it.wiki (almeno a me così pare). E non posso che rammaricarmene. Buon tutto. --[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] ([[User talk:Er Cicero|talk]]) 10:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:::In effetti ammetto che avrei voluto correggere quel messaggio in questo modo: "piccolo/grande mondo virtuale" (perché è una piccola comunità, è vero, ma si affaccia su un grande mondo ed è impegnata in un lavoro grande) e "vi auguro di essere soddisfatti del vostro lavoro" (anziché "spero che siate contenti", che è sarcastico, mentre l'augurio può essere sincero). Avrei invece lasciato la parte sui "prepotenti" perché, al di là delle buone intenzioni dei singoli, la credo vera. Ho provato a correggere il testo in questo modo, ma era già troppo tardi - per quel che vale, lo faccio ora. Grazie di nuovo e saluti, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::scusami, avevo dimenticato di pingarti @[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 11:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Hospes tantum nequeo Franca decisa reprehendere ac nolo, sed tu, ὦ [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D473 νεῖκος ἄριστε] Gitz, ignosces mihi. --[[User:Frognall|Frognall]] ([[User talk:Frognall|talk]]) 21:00, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Frognall|Frognall]], [[:it:Aiace_Oileo|Touché]]. Ti risponderei, per continuare il gioco, [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0185%3Acard%3D872 κράτος δ᾽ ὅτῳ κράτος μέλει παραβατὸν οὐδαμᾷ πέλει: σὲ δ᾽ αὐτόγνωτος ὤλεσ᾽ ὀργά]. Guarda però che io sono persona mitissima, solo con poca attitudine a farmi maltrattare per nessuna ragione. Non sono un attaccabrighe, ma la massima a cui cerco di attenermi sempre è: se un lavoro non dà gioia, tientene lontano. Per il resto, come ho detto a Pequod, "collige quae [[:it:Bozza:Storia_dei_concetti|superaverunt fragmenta]] ne pereant". Lui però nemmeno su questo si è mostrato molto sollecito… cioè non si è voluto far rifilare la patacca! Vedi tu. Un caro saluto, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
::Traduco, in caso ci fosse un amico che ci legge: "il potere, per chi ha caro il potere, non ammette trasgressione. La tua ira, che decide da sé, ti ha perduta" (Antigone) e "Raccogli le briciole avanzate, perché niente si perda" (da Giovanni 6:12). [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:34, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
== Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield ==
Good day Gitz6666. Thank you very much for your attention to the article [[Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield]]. Few editors seem to add citations and your contribution is therefore especially precious and welcome. Unluckily, you seem to have the wrong lady. The description of a beautiful lady on page 141, which you cite, is that of Miss Hamilton. Lady Chesterfield is described on p 167. Besides, you cite the book as <nowiki>{{Cite book|last=Hamilton|first=Anthony|url=https://archive.org/details/memoirscountgram00hamimiss/page/n175/mode/2up|title=Memoirs of Count Grammont|publisher=E.L. Carey & A. Hart|year=1836|location=Philadelphia|pages=141|author-link=Antoine Hamilton}}</nowiki> I do not find a publication date on this edition and the title page indicates that the publisher is David McKay and not E.L. Carey & A. Hart as you say. Where did you get the information from? I edited the article and corrected the page citing from the Gebbie edition of 1888, which is better documented but identical for the rest. How did you get to [[Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield]]? Do you have a special interest in her or in [[Antoine Hamilton]] and his book? Best regards, [[User:Johannes Schade|Johannes Schade]] ([[User talk:Johannes Schade|talk]]) 15:59, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Hugo Krabbe]] has been accepted ==
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 1.5em; width: 90%;">[[File:AFC-Logo.svg|50px|left]] '''[[Hugo Krabbe]], which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.'''<br />
Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions. <br />
The article has been assessed as '''Start-Class''', which is recorded on its [[Talk:Hugo Krabbe|talk page]]. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they [[Wikipedia:Article development|develop]] over time. You may like to take a look at the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Grading scheme|grading scheme]] to see how you can improve the article.
<div class="autoconfirmed-show">Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now [[Wikipedia:Your first article|create articles yourself]] without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]] if you prefer.</div>
If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the '''<span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit§ion=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Hugo_Krabbe help desk]</span>'''.<span class="unconfirmed-show"> Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to [[Wikipedia:Your first article|create articles yourself]] without posting a request to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]].</span>
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Thanks again, and happy editing!
[[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:02, 6 March 2022 (UTC)</div><!--Template:Afc talk-->
== Re:peggio della politica ==
Thanks! I replied to you by e-mail. --[[User:Conviene|Conviene]] ([[User talk:Conviene|talk]]) 19:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
==Commenting about other users on article talk pages==
Please keep in mind that article talk pages exist only for discussing improvement of the corresponding page. Your comments on my talk page were fine, even if poorly substantiated, but [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1079792010&oldid=1079791162 that] was not. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:34, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for removing your comment. But you constantly accuse me of bias. Yes, I certainly have personal views about it (everyone has). But I am trying to follow all rules including NPOV in main space. For example, would not you agree with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1079845024 this]? [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 23:06, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
::Honestly I thought you might be biased, but even if it were so, that wouldn't be a problem. As you rightly say, we all have views. It's impossible to establish who, if any, is "truly neutral" here. The only way of achieving a certain acceptable degree of neutrality is through discussion and consensus. I objected to having all those poorly sourced (even posts on telegram!) "attacks on civilians" that do not qualify as war crimes, and I'll try to make the case for splitting the article; but I haven't started to remove them from the article, because it's only my view, maybe people from Ukraine or elsewhere are sending those contents to us, we should be respectful and take time and care. With regard to the criterion for the lead you ask me about: to me it looks overly complicated. The lead should change and will change but as a starting point, it seems to me that it should briefly announce the various areas touched upon in the article, as a sort of summary for the reader. Honestly, if one reads the lead now, it is clear that the Russian army are behaving horribly, and I don’t think we are underplaying their responsibility. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
:::I did watch YouTube records mentioned [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Footage_of_captured_Russian_soldiers here] with great interest. Obviously, these Russian pilots (those who bombed children in Ukrainian cities) and others were under a psychological pressure, and I am not sure they apologized sincerely to Ukrainian people. So, it did look to me as a doubtful excercize, unless that was needed to improve the spirits of Ukrainian people and reveal a few interesting details about these pilots being misinformed by their commanders. Still, I can not compare that "torture" (certainly, these pilots felt ashamed, exactly as they should be) with the death, incapacitation and injury of peaceful people they have bombed. These pilots should be tried for their war crimes if you ask me. But in terms of WP coverage, I think my comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1079845024] explains it. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 00:57, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
::::I agree with you: the videos of the Russian PoW calling their mum, crying and expressing regret, etc., do not amount to torture. "Abuse" is a reasonable word, I guess, or maybe "exploiting for propaganda purposes". However, deliberatly shooting 3 PoWs in the legs and let them bleeding is torture, if that's what's happened. By the way, I've just read this in the report by Bogner: "Since the invasion by the Russian Federation, people believed to be thieves, bootleggers, pro-Russian supporters or curfew violators have been beaten in territory controlled by the Government of Ukraine. We have received credible allegations of more than 40 such cases of ill-treatment by police officers, volunteer defence force members and others". I think you'll agree: this doesn't qualify as war crime, or at least RS doesn't say so explicitly, so let's leave it out. With regard to the lead, I personally have nothing against you or anyone else adding text to it - now is too poor - provided that we keep it fairly balanced and not emphatic or in any way apologetic. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:17, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
:::::Only 40 cases of ill-treatment by police officers? I am sure there are many more such cases in the USA. As about Russia, the entire police force works for the [[Mafia state]]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:33, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
::::::I am afraid you're right! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
== Do not remove other people's comments ==
as you did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1081051484] here. That's a pretty quick way to earn yourself a block.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:04, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:I'm afraid you'll get blocked if you keep on disrupting the talk in this way. It's not a place for venting anger. We discuss on the contents there, and you're making a mess out of it. Plus that OP is a [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attack]] against a fellow editor, User:Dunutubble (''For fuck's sake, this also restores the idiotic notion that ... Gimme a break. There's absolutely no source for such a claim (probably because it's patently ridiculous). The given source certainly doesn't say anything so stupid. But it's also frankly offensive ... I am very tempted to report this fairly transparent violation...'''). It's unacceptable. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
::That is not a personal attack. The comment discusses the content not a person. I am not "venting anger". Now THAT is discussing a person not content, so THAT could qualify as a personal attack.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small>
::Regardless, it's not YOUR job to police the talk page and remove other people's comments. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_others'_comments WP:TALK]<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] With regard to the DS alert here below, note that it says "To opt out of receiving messages like this one, place {{tlx|Ds/aware}} on your user talk page and specify in the template the topic areas that you would like to opt out of alerts about". I have placed that template on my talk page, so you should avoid doing this. Don't you see that the way you behave is disruptive? I have other staff to do here and you are wasting my time, and other editors' time, for no reason. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:35, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
== Talk typo? ==
I think you may have meant {{tq|I will open a ''thread''...}} in your recent comment at [[Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#PossibleTypo]] but it currently says something quite different. --[[User talk:N8wilson|N8<sub>wilson</sub>]] 01:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
== Infobox ==
Ciao, perdonami, ma qui non abbiamo le categorie automatiche dei template sinottici?--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 17:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
:Ciao @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], mi hai colto in castagna! Ti confesso che a leggere "categorie automatiche dei template sinottici" sono rimasto basito: per me è aramaico, non ho idea di che cosa tu stia parlando. Allora mi sono messo a studiare e posso dirti questo:
:1. Alla tua domanda non so rispondere.
:2. Questa è la linea guida del manuale di stile sulle infoboxes (template sinottici): [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]], questa è la linea guida sulla categorizzazione: [[Wikipedia:Categorization]], questa è la pagina di aiuto sulle categorie: [[Help:Category]], questo è un "saggio" su quando non fare un infobox perché è inutile: [[Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes]] (su it.wiki non esistono i saggi; si tratta di opinioni e consigli non vincolanti, spesso confutati da altri saggi di segno contrario, come questo "inclusionista" sugli infoboxes, [[Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes can be useful]]),.
:3. Qui trovi una pagina di aiuto molto generale su come iniziare a collaborare con en.wiki: [[Help:Getting started]] e qui trovi una pagina di aiuto su come fare domande, richieste di informazioni e di aiuto, ecc.: [[Wikipedia:Questions]]. Come vedi, sulla destra c'è "Personal help on your talk page": formuli una domanda e un editor ti risponde sulla tua pagina discussioni utente (user talk page).
:P.S. Su en.wiki puoi cancellare tutto quello che vuoi dalla tua talk page, quindi se la tua domanda è sbagliata o la risposta non è utile, la puoi cancellare tranquillamente.
:Ciao, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
== Warcrimes page ==
thanks for taking the time to prepare the post on the Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine page. Lets see if we get any other Editors participating. Like you I am starting to think their are better things to do in my life than endless arguements over these issues. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 21:48, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] thank you for the good work. I think I'm going to take a break from that article, as I'm disappointed by the lack of support from other editors. I hate seeing war crimes discourse being hijacked for petty political goals: if there are more war crimes against my party, that means that I'm (on the side of) the True Victim, which in turn means that... we're going to win the war? NATO will enter the war and war crimes will cease? Russian people will be ashamed and they'll ask their soldiers to behave nicely? I don't even understand the point of playing this ridiculous game of POV pushing on an article as that one, it shows disrespect for the real victims and it's utterly useless. Plus, I resent the way Anonimu was provoked and excluded: they brought it upon themselves, but it wasn't fair and it caused damage to our work. Or maybe what's happening is not [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] and [[WP:DISRUPTIVE]] and what I perceive as fair balance is out of touch with the prevailing views in the community. Either way it' better if I take a break and move to other projects. But thank you again for the nice work, I enjoyed collaborating with you. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:47, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
== Outstanding article ==
Hi, I'm GizzyCatBella. I came across an article [[Hugo Krabbe]] you created, and I've read it with great interest. I believe this is an excellent article, well sourced, flawlessly formatted, immaculate. Thank you very much. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 10:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you so much @[[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] for your kind message! This truly means a lot to me. I have spent a good deal of time on that article, I hadn't received any feedback so far and I was a bit disappointed about that. I had also asked a peer review but none has answered my call and the review is still deserted: [[Wikipedia:Peer_review#Hugo_Krabbe]] and [[Wikipedia:Peer_review/Hugo_Krabbe/archive1]]. You cheered my up! Thank you. Any help in improving the article (starting from the quality of the English, which is not my mother tongue) is more than welcome. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
== May 2022 ==
[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Hello! Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your contributions. At least one of your edits, while it may have been in good faith, was difficult to distinguish from [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. To help other editors understand the reason for the changes, you can use an [[Help:Edit summary|edit summary]] for your contributions. You can also take a look at the [[Wikipedia:Introduction|welcome page]] to learn more about contributing to [[Wikipedia|this encyclopedia]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-subtle1 --> [[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 13:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:What a coincidence, I have just written to you. Which edit are you referring to? I see that you undid my edit here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088855205&oldid=1088854875&diffmode=source] with the surprising object "misleading edit summary". My summary was exceptionally detailed! I had literally described each and every changed I had made: "Added sources (Guardian + Le Monde), reference to "torture" (which cannot be disputed), reference to the results of the investigations by Le Monde and others + fixed mistake in the spelling of the village where this happened". If you don't agree, you should at least explain why, and that edit summary of yours unfortunately doesn't help. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 13:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
::So basically @[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] if you don't explain why my (detailed and thorough) edit summary is "misleading", one is left with no reason at all for your revert. You should either write: "misleading edit summary: POWs had not been tortured" (and I could open a discussion on this), or "misleading edit summary: Le Monde has been misrepresented" (and I could open a discussion), or "it happened in Malaya Rohan, not in Mala Rohan" (again, we could discuss about that). But if you just say "misleading summary", what should we be discussing about? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 14:05, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:::You made subsection name changes and removed content without indicating such in the summary. [[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 14:08, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
::::So, first of all I see that you are now admitting that your summary "misleading edit summary" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088855205&oldid=1088854875&diffmode=source] is indeed misleading. The edit you reverted had a good summary. So I suggest you self-revert that edit of yours. You can undo my edit but you should explain your reason.
::::Secondly, as you can see, I indicated everything in the summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088831172&oldid=1088797956&diffmode=source]: "There's no reason for believing that both sources are about same issue: one refers to Borodyanka, the other took place in Kharkiv. The intercepted conversation with sadistic mum fails WP:V, heading must be compliant with MOS:HEAD. See talk and don't restore until consensus is reached". So what are you talking about? "heading must be compliant with MOS:HEAD" obviously refers to a change in the heading, don't you think so? Plus I had already explained everything on the talk page (that you desert) so this is really ludicrous. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 14:19, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] I was trying to make sense of what happened and I noticed that in fact [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088854875&oldid=1088852269&diffmode=source this edit of mine] also changed the heading plus removed some contents. After all, your "misleading edit summary" was not... entirely misleading! I did it inadvertently (probably I thought I had already published those early changes). I apologise for that.
:::::However, please note the following:
:::::- A discussion has been going on on the talk page since the 18 May. I pinged you but you didn't join.
:::::- In that discussion 4 editors apart from myself expressed their views, and at 10:00, 20 May 2022 I made a proposition which ''perhaps'' might have enjoyed a consensus, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088828327&oldid=1088810407&diffmode=source here]; I then modified the article accordingly and explained everything in the summary: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088831172&oldid=1088797956&diffmode=source].
:::::- Obviously if you don't agree you can revert, but then please explain your reasons by joining the discussion. These reverts are not helpful if the goal is to reach a consensus: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=next&oldid=1088848134&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=next&oldid=1088848291&diffmode=source].
:::::I think we can't reach a consensus through editing here and we should avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates over contents ([[WP:REVTALK]]); we should rather use the talk page.
:::::Anyway, sorry again about my sloppy summary. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:51, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
== I reverted you ==
I might have let it stand if you had allowed me to disagree with M. Bitton, as he did quickly move to personal attacks, but as it is, you were wrong to not allow me to answer him. I mean, who he?
Meanwhile, I did at one point split your comment and tried to fix that; possibly we overwrote each other, and I see you may have done something about this in the same edit. For the record, I have no objection to you moving the second part of your comment above my reply if this is still an issue after my revert. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 17:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
:thanks for the message, my comment and your replies to me as they are now are OK. With regard to the template:hidden, I had the impression that that discussion between you and M.Bitton was off topic and made it more difficult for others to join the discussion. If you want that discussion back to full visibility, I've nothing to object but let me suggest you to disengage: clearly there's a history of hostility between you two, and in these cases leaving a couple of days to "cool down" is always advisable. By the way, as a third uninvolved party let me tell you that you were the first one to escalate ("I've explained to you a few times now that other languages exist and see no reason to punish my carpals to go through this with you again"). Maybe you've been a bit too harsh without intending it? In that case, apologies always clean the air. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard]]==
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{{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read [[WP:Your first article|the guide to writing your first article]].</p><p>You may want to consider using the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}}
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard]] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[WP:CSD#A3|section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|help]] or [[Wikipedia:Reference desk|reference]] desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see [[Wikipedia:Stub#Essential information about stubs|Wikipedia:Stub]] for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on [[Wikipedia:Notability|notable]] subjects and should provide references to [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the {{Querylink|Special:Log|qs=type=delete&page=Edwin+Montefiore+Borchard|deleting administrator}}, or if you have already done so, you can place a request [[WP:RFUD|here]]. <!-- Template:Db-nocontent-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 00:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
:Hello @[[User:Mhawk10|Mhawk10]], I've made a mistake. I intended to create a redirect, so I should have written <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[Edwin Borchard]]</nowiki>; instead I wrote <nowiki>{{Redirect|Edwin Borchard}}</nowiki>. I've made the same mistake with [[Edwin M. Borchard]] and now I've corrected it. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
::Hi! I've turned [[Edwin Montefiore Borchard]] into a redirect per your comment above and I've removed the speedy deletion tag. — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 00:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
== Lyudmyla Denisova ==
In the end, it was the Ukrainian parliamentarians themselves, together with 140 public figures, activists and professionals, who also accused her of making unverifiable statements about alleged sexual crimes by Russian troops.[https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-05-31/card/ukraine-s-parliament-dismisses-human-rights-chief-1kQWT7i0GHXyeqh6spRe][https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmila-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920]--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 19:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
:Grazie, @[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]], ero a conoscenza di questo. Forse si potrebbe mettere l'informazione nel punto appropriato della voce War Crimes. La discussione a RS/N ha preso una piega surreale quando la notizia si è diffusa e alcuni utenti hanno continuato a dire che l'informazione era comunque sufficientemente verificabile! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
::A giudicare da quello che sta succedendo alla voce sui crimini di guerra e sulla sua voce personale, sembra ci sia l'intenzione di evitare di parlare dell'accaduto. [[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
== 3RR warning ==
[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|left|alt=Stop icon]] Your recent editing history at [[:War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]] shows that you are currently engaged in an [[Wikipedia:Edit warring|edit war]]; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|talk page]] to work toward making a version that represents [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle|the bold, revert, discuss cycle]] for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant [[Wikipedia:Noticeboards|noticeboard]] or seek [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]]. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary [[Wikipedia:Protection policy|page protection]].
'''Being involved in an edit war can result in you being [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]'''—especially if you violate the [[Wikipedia:Edit warring#The three-revert rule|three-revert rule]], which states that an editor must not perform more than three [[Help:Reverting|reverts]] on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—'''even if you do not violate the three-revert rule'''—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.<!-- Template:uw-3rr -->
:I made three and no more than three reverts in a 24-hour period: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094473817&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094477121&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094498261&diffmode=source]. Therefore, as far as I understand, I complied with [[WP:3RR]]. The editor who applied the template:3RR and who forgot to sign it is {{Ping|Volunteer Marek}}. They themselves performed three reverts in that page: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094135458&oldid=1094125345&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094476007&oldid=1094473817&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094477430&oldid=1094477121&diffmode=source]. As an involved editor who is engaged in the very same behaviour they are complaining about, they are not in the position to use the 3RR template. I think they just got nervous because they have [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Volunteer_Marek's_incivility_and_POV-pushing|a pending case]] at WP:ANI, which I initiated. The fact that they forgot to sign also suggests the template was applied out of spite. They should be reminded that one needs to {{tq|Be careful about issuing templated messages to editors you're currently involved in a dispute with}}, as per [[WP:CIV]]. I strongly recommend Volunteer Marek to careful read (possibly a couple of times and taking notes) the whole policy one finds at WP:CIV. They would benefit enormously from doing so. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 06:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::Notification is required prior to a report. You made 3 reverts within FOUR hours. ANI at discussion is pretty much telling you that you should be mindful of [[WP:BOOMERANG]] and most commentators (except a couple usual suspects from the War Crimes article) are telling you that you are indeed in the wrong as to the substance. You should pay heed.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 15:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
:::I don't agree with your reading of the discussion at ANI. I think your incivility and relentless pov-pushing are being exposed there. Anyway, re edit warring I think you should just stick to the WP:BRD cycle and don't revert when you're being reverted. Just seek consensus on the talk page and if you don’t get it (as on this occasion), just let things be: we are not playing a war game here, let alone fighting a war on account of the Ukrainian people. We're just writing an encyclopedia, and your editing style is blocking us. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::::You made three reverts in less than four hours so please don't try to lecture me about BRD. Here are some comments from ANI that you might find relevant:
::::''"I will not be suprised if this report ends up in a WP:BOOMERANG (against Gitz6666)"''
::::''"I'm definitely concerned by Gitz's clear attempt to slide in content with weasel word caveats while sliding out reliably sourced content in Wikivoice"''
::::''"while they (Volunteer Marek) might be forthright in their opinions, their contributions could not be considered exceptional wrt civility or POV. I have found them to be generally acceptive of broader consensus."''
::::''"Yeh, Gitz666 has a POV here."''
::::''"I am of the general opinion that that Gitz6666 is POV-pushing problematically here "''
::::''"Gitz purpose (in this area) is to edit in and promote Russian propaganda and excuse/deny war crimes, that is clear from their editing. Just broadly topic ban them from the Russian invasion of Ukraine"''
::::These are all from six DIFFERENT editors. Offering this piece of advice in 100% good faith: read the room.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 19:17, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::the thing is, @[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]], I ''know'' that I'm not a Russian pov-pusher. If someone says otherwise, that's relatively indifferent to me. It means that either they're pov-pushers themselves or that they're not well-informed. Moreover, I ''know'' that you're a pov-pusher: the exclusive or prevailing reason why you're here is pursuing a political agenda. If you were honest you'd admit it yourself: you're not at all interested in writing a collective encyclopaedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality. What I really don't know, however, is which standard of (in)civility this community deems intolerable. The way you behave is clearly exceptional in that regard, but I don't know if it's something that the community is ready to accept. We'll see it. I've done my best to expose the way you behave and will continue to ask the community to uphold its policies. If in the process I get topic banned or blocked, be it: nobody really gets hurt. I'll work on other projects and I'll be content with myself. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::Well, I tried to give you good faithed advice. It's really all I can do and rest is up to you.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 00:00, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::::[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]], Gitz is doing the difficult thing here, which is trying to keep an article neutral in a situation like this where not only almost everyone in Wikipedia, but also a lot of press, are not neutral. And not without a reason, after all there is a war going on. Your contributions, Marek, are great many times, but I also believe that they often fail NPOV. And this is not a critique, it is hard to keep a NPOV on a subject like War Crimes. <span id="AdrianHObradors:1656327007877:User_talkFTTCLNGitz6666" class="FTTCmt">[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]] ([[User talk:AdrianHObradors|talk]]) 10:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)</span>
::::::::You need to read [[WP:3rr]] carefully. It’s not an allowance. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 18:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
==RfC==
Since you asked for comments... You should not be doing [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gitz6666/sandbox2&oldid=1096504148 this] because you misrepresent comments by other contributors. My main argument was never false balance. I am simply telling that an event should be significant enough for inclusion ''as follows from its coverage in RS'', no matter what "side" of the conflict. For example, if an event was covered only in few RS when it had happen, but not covered later, it probably has no "lasting significance". If it was just mentioned somewhere over the comma (",...,"), then again, it is not notable enough to be included to an already very long page. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 12:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
:Hello @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]], it was [[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] the one who argued that their reason for remopving the section was WP:UNDUE/false balance: see their opening post on the talk page at 23:00, 18 June 2022, {{tq|But we absolutely must have an article and text in this article about THAT ONE maybe-Ukrainian missile!!!!!! Because "balance" or some shit. I'm sorry but that kind of approach is just sick. And it's the quintessence of violating WP:UNDUE to push a POV ("both sides do it!!!!")}}. So I basically tried to summarise also their view, and while in the process I had to drop a few exclamation marks, I dont' think I misrepresented anything substantial. However, if you don't want to be associated with that argument, I think we could drop any reference to the 6 or 7 editors who joined the discussion instead of removing arguments which were actually made. Don't you agree? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] I've just changed the text as described here above. Please chek it and tell me if it's now OK for you or if you think that there's anything that needs to be added or removed from the summary of your arguments. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:38, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
:::If you want to post an RfC, please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Statement_should_be_neutral_and_brief this] and check how other people do it. I think you should not mention any specific contributors at all (just make a link to relevant discussion/section on article talk page). If people want to say something, they will comment at the RfC. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 15:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
[[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested  at [[Talk:Greased piglet#rfc_B4662CC|'''Talk:Greased piglet'''  on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) | Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. | Sent at 14:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
==AE report==
I made a report about your editing here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Gitz6666 here]. You are welcome to reply. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 04:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:This is ridiculous - what an appalling waste of time! Anyway I'll be travelling today and tomorrow, and I'll do my best to reply as soon as I can. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::::Re to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=prev&oldid=1099022443 this]. Sure thing, everyone has an opinion, admitted, and it is difficult to remain neutral. But one should just follow all our editing policies. That is what I am trying to do. In this case, you are saying that one should be "mitigating the responsibilities of the Russian army or documenting allegations of war crimes by the Ukrainian side". I do agree this is something you are trying to do, but I think you crossed the line in a number of cases, for example, by systematically removing well sourced content that contradicts your personal bias - as illustrated by diffs in my request. This is contrary to the policies, as me and other contributors tried to explain to you in a number of discussions we had. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::Please @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]], may I suggest you answer my question at AE and share a few diffs showing that you comply with our policies and guidelines such as NPOV, DISRUPTIVE and TENDENTIOUS? otherwise the boomerang effect might be resounding. You see, you're right in saying that everyone has an opinion, but you're also neglecting a fundamental difference between you and me. I don't edit War crimes in Ukraine for advancing my personal political views, I work on that article because I truly believe that building an encyclopedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality is an excellent effort in a time of war: it promotes knowledge, understanding, sympathy for the victims and accountabity for the perpetrators. Plus, I literally don't give a fuck about the Ukrainian/Russian divide; I see only victims and perpetrators. You, on the contrary, you are there just because you oppose the Russian regime, I guess. Therefore you're a liability, you make it more difficult to do our job (which is basically WP:E, WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:RS) and you waste lots of time. I respect your political views and your motivations, but I also believe that if dispute resolution works well you'll get at least topic banned. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::Oh no, based on the diffs provided, I think you are clearly editing on the side of the Russian state if there is such "side". I can not speculate about your motivation. And you are wrong about my motivation. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:52, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:But to answer your AE question, no, I hardly made any really substantial contributions in this subject area. I have time only to fix a few minor things, occasionally participate in discussions, or file an AE request if I believe that someone does something really detrimental to the project. Indeed, I believe that even your [[WP:BLUDGEON]] of talk pages on this subject could warrant such request... [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 14:51, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Thank you for answering @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]]. I understand that your answer is basically "No": you cannot provide any diff showing that you, at least on one occasion, have removed a fishy, ill-sourced allegation against the Russian army or have included a sound, well-sourced allegation against the Ukrainian army. Nor have you made any comment on the talk page that couldn't be possibly construed as "relentless anti-Russian POV pushing".
::The first reason for this is - you say - that you {{TQ|hardly made any really substantial contributions in this subject area.}} But you are way too modest! You have made no less than 95 edits to [[War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]] [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=]. See? a nice 4.35% of the total edits made to the page. Truth be told, you are only at number 41 in terms of authorship. You've added only 766 characters to the article, a disappointing 0.3% of the text (I've added 74,240 characters, 29.2% of the text). And why is that, MVBW? The reason for this mismatch is that almost all your edits are reverts: you're basically disrupting other editors' work, that's what you do. You don't actually engage in building an encyclopedia, you have other stuff to do here.
::Please, have another look at this [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=], and tell me if you think that a community of editors should tolerate this kind of behaviour; please compare with this [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=Gitz6666&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&max=500&server=enwiki].
::Secondly, you say that you {{TQ|occasionally participate in discussions}}. Again, you are way too modest: 219 edits to the talk page, 10.66% of the total edits made to the page [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=Talk%3AWar_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=]. Authorship statistics are not available for talk pages, but I'm be ready to bet that you are the second contributor to our discussions. We've spent hours discussing together and believe me: not on one occasion have you ever made anything but pushing an anti-Russian POV. Am I wrong? No, I'm not, you know I'm not. Everybody already knows in advance on what side your arguments are going to fall, which basically makes them useless. And the same applies to Volunteer Marek.
::Finally, you summarise your third contribution to War crimes in Ukraine as follows: {{TQ|occasionally [I] file an AE request if I believe that someone does something really detrimental to the project}}. You don't specify what project are you referring to - do you mean the Ukrainian military effort? It is true that you filed an AE request against Mhorg, [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive307#Mhorg|here]], and most of it was about BLP and how to account for Denisova's dismissal; and yet in the article on Denisova you inserted factually wrong information, as I demonstrated to you in [[Talk:Lyudmyla Denisova#"An open letter from 140 activists ... opposed her removal."|this thread]] to which you never replied. Now you file another request against me - well done. I'm wondering if they'll understand that you are a blatant case of [[Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing|civil POV-pushing]].
::There's only one thing that I really don't know. What the hell did you mean when you said that {{tq|you are wrong about my motivation}}? Isn't the point of all your being here just opposing the Russian government? What did I miss? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:40, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
:::Well, even this brief discussion shows what is the problem with your editing. You grossly misinterpreted my comment. I only said I am a low-key contributor in this area, nothing else. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:47, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::"Low-key contributor in this area" is not accurate. You are as much a contributor to War crimes in Ukraine as a chicken bone stuck in your throat is a contribution to the dinner. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::As about "have another look at this [...], please compare with this [...]", no, such comparison tells very little. One should look at individual edits. Yes, I frequently remove poorly sourced, misinterpreted and otherwise problematic content. This is all. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::I don't believe it's a good thing to have you here {{tq|frequently}} removing contents that you deem {{tq|poorly sourced, misinterpreted and otherwise problematic}}. But tell me, why are the contents you remove always and exclusively about war crimes allegedly committed by the Ukrainian army? Why have you NEVER encountered similarly poorly sourced, misinterpreted and problematic contents about a war crime allegedly committed by the Russian army? It's a genuine (as opposed to rhetoric) question: have you ever thought about it? do you have an answer [[ping|My very best wishes]]? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC); edited 23:39, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::::Why I NEVER removed content about war crimes by Russian army? No, of course I occasionally removed such content, for example, in the biggest removal I made on this page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1095028410]. Here I removed something that was presumably a false flag attack by ''Russian'' forces [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1093987907]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
== Indiscriminate attack(s) ==
The draft at [[User:Gitz6666/sandbox4]] for '''Indiscriminate attack(s)''' looks good and very likely to survive any notability challenges, IMHO, though I see it's still in draft stage. There might be a debate about how similar articles in Wikipedia are named - as singular or plural. Singular is more like a dictionary definition, and plural is more about "the thing in general" - that's my impression, at least for categories. But mainspace usage will count more than category style. This is an obviously important article. There are some fields of knowledge where en.Wikipedia is still missing many key articles. [[User:Boud|Boud]] ([[User talk:Boud|talk]]) 16:35, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for your message @[[User:Boud|Boud]]. Unfortunately I haven't worked on that draft for a while, but I'll do my best to finish it in the next few days. I'm sure the topic is notable enough and I'm happy to help filling a gap. Re singular/plural I haven't thought about it, I've now made a quick search on similar articles (e.g human shield, hostage) and singular seems prevailing but I don't have strong views on this - if you think plural is best, I'll follow your advice. I'll let you know when the article is published and I'd be grateful if you will edit it or add it to your watchlist. Best, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
::I don't have strong views on it either - so I suggest sticking to the singular when you have time to get back to it. [[User:Boud|Boud]] ([[User talk:Boud|talk]]) 22:07, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
:::Hello @[[User:Boud|Boud]], yesterday I published a first draft of the article [[Indiscriminate attack]], but I'm still working on a section on "history" and on the images. If you want to edit it or add it to your watchlist, that's great. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
== Indiscriminate attacks ==
I've just tweaked two of your recent edits re this; see the edit summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine%E2%80%93American_War&diff=next&oldid=1102768450 here], which mentions the other edit. What I've done here probably needs improvement in both articles edited. The [[Indiscriminate attack]] article might also need improvement, as suggested there. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 22:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
:Yes, @[[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]], you're right. I'm working on a section "History" in the article on Indiscriminate attack but it will probably be irrelevant to the articles on the Philippine–American War. They a contemporary terminology to refer to events that happened before the criminalisation of indiscriminate attacks and/or use a generic, non-legal sense of "indiscriminate attack". IN both cases a wikilink would not be useful. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
::Hi. Thanks for the response. This area is of some interest to me as it relates to the the U.S. military in the Philippines from 1898 to 1910ish, but it is not a focus area. Re the U.S., it seems to go back to Lieber, Lincoln, [https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lieber.asp General Order 100], and the [[Lieber code]]. c. 1863. Googling, I turned up some things which might or might not interest you. You've probably seen them, but I'll mantion a couple of them just in case: [https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.353.366&rep=rep1&type=pdf][https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul] (particularly Rules 11-14). Other items caught my eye, but I have not been able to quickly locate them again. Cheers. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 09:35, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
== 3RR report==
You are welcome to reply here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Gitz6666_reported_by_User:My_very_best_wishes_(Result:_)]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 02:53, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=prev&oldid=1103184046] - I did it by mistake, but you are more than welcome to restore. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:27, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
[[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested  at [[Talk:Likud#rfc_9580E4D|'''Talk:Likud'''  on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) | Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. | Sent at 07:40, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
==[[WP:NPA]]==
What you said here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=1103093401&oldid=1103057250],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=1103151829&oldid=1103151710] was a blatant personal attack. For the record, I am a cultural Russophile, meaning I am a fan of Russian poetry, songs and many other aspects of Russian culture. It does not mean that all aspects of Russian [[culture]] are great, but debating and criticizing them is normal in Russian politics and literature. I only said something that appears in the poetry cited on my talk page or in books, including even novels by famous [[Ivan Bunin]]. It does not mean that I support the current political regime in Russia and the suffering it brings to many nations including Russia itself. Quite the opposite. That's why I do not support [[Russian world]]. This is not really about culture, but a harmful propaganda that was used to justify the military aggression against other countries, and it defames all Russians around the world. So, you probably can count this as a political bias. But this is all. Please strike through or remove your comments. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:20, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] you don't understand the meaning of the word "culture" in "cultural racism". It has nothing to do with poetry, literature, etc. And the "slavish obedience and cruelty" of the Russian culture/character as an explanation for the invasion of Ukraine is paradigmatic of cultural racism. I won't strike through my comment but I suggest you remove your racist rant. Alternatively you can go around complaining about how deeply insulting it is that someone perceives Russian "slavish obedience and cruelty" as racist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
::Well, that was a summary of something well known from Russian literature. Consider [[Farewell, Unwashed Russia]], i.e. "...Land of slaves, land of masters...". Are you saying that [[Mikhail Lermontov]] was an anti-Russian cultural racist? Nonsense. Personally, I do not think that any culture is better than another, but they are very much different. However, I will note that you are refusing to apologize or remove your offensive and unjustified accusations. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Did Lermontov explain the war in Ukraine in terms of the "slavish obedience and cruelty" of the Russian people? In that case I'd say that, based on contemporary standards, he would qualify as a racist - yes. Attributing moral vices and virtues to peoples is always a tricky business: the cruel and slavish Russian, the cunning Jew, the lazy Italian, etc., are offensive, and are also extremely stupid. I won't pursue the matter further, but I strongly advise you to remove hateful contents from your talk page. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::No, that was not about any ethnic stereotypes ''at all''. What I cited was this:
<poem>
Ныне ль, даве ль?- все одно и то же:
Волчьи морды, машкеры и рожи,
Спертый дух и одичалый мозг,
Сыск и кухня Тайных Канцелярий,
Пьяный гик осатанелых тварей,
Жгучий свист шпицрутенов и розг,
Дикий сон военных поселений,
Фаланстер, парадов и равнений,
Павлов, Аракчеевых, Петров,
Жутких Гатчин, страшных Петербургов,
Замыслы неистовых хирургов
И размах заплечных мастеров.
Сотни лет тупых и зверских пыток,
И еще не весь развернут свиток,
И не замкнут список палачей...
([[Maximilian Voloshin|Voloshin]], 1920, Crimea)
</poem>
::::You would probably count even [[Lev Tolstoy]] as a "racist" for his criticism of Russian war in Caucasus [https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/arts/29iht-tolstoy.html] ("In “[[Hadji Murad]],” Tolstoy writes of a vicious circle of cruelty..." and so on). [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 10:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Saying that a war is cruel is not racist, saying that Putin is cruel is not racist, saying that a whole people is cruel may be racist; in this case, it was racist. Russia did not invade Ukraine because the Russians are cruel slaves. But I'm done with this conversation, which is very boring, and also pointless: I've never met anyone openly admitting to have said something racist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Whatever you think that was, you are missing the point. For example, if someone summarizes what sources say about [[racism]], that does not mean that he/she is a racist. I was asking "what in Russian culture/character made the atrocities [well-known through Russian history] possible?". This question has been debated many times in Russian literature (like in the novel by Tolstoy, etc.). That was my summary of these sources. If you disagree with Tolstoy or Voloshin, that's fine, but do not blame ''me'' of racism. Sure, there was some degree of WP:SYN in my comment, but I did not suggest including it on any pages. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 16:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Russian cruelty and servility is the wrong answer to the wrong question. You could ask that very same question about the Germans, Italians, British, Americans, etc., with the result of stereotyping national characters and always missing the truth. Atrocities always happen everywhere, and there's very little specific to national cultures to account for them. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I hope you are not going to deny that Russian and American cultures, for example, are very different, and that one can study these cultures and how they have affected the histories of the countries. Once again, I am not saying that one culture is better than another, but they very different. Would ''modern day'' US army commit [[Bucha massacre]] in Canada? Of course not. Why? There are many reasons, but one of them is the difference in culture. Of course the US army did bomb a number of wrong targets in Afghanistan, but the conduct of Soviet army in the same Afghanistan was still very much different, etc. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 21:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::what about the [[Mỹ Lai massacre]]? "Culture" doesn't explain anything: probably the culture of an American solider and that of a Russian soldier are much more similar than the culture of an American soldier and an American banker, journalist or HR activist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Sure thing, that was a terrible war crime by an unruly detachment. But did they do it with ''every'' Vietnamese village, or at least with every village close to which some activities by insurgents were found or suspected? Because that is what Soviet forces did in Afghanistan, Nazi forces did on the occupied Soviet territories, and yes, Russian forces do in Ukraine (and they do a lot more). That's the difference. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] I watched a few documentaries about modern-day US marines on YouTube and the dehumanisation modern US soldiers experience seems very similar to the depiction in [[Full Metal Jacket]]. There's nothing uniquely Russian about inhumane cruelty of soldiers Tolstoy writes about. Your interpretation of his works is rather peculiar. [[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] ([[User talk:PaulT2022|talk]]) 15:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::One can agree or disagree about it, but this is not a reason for making personal attacks like "racist rant" and so on. That was my point. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 18:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
== RfC on Amnesty and Stara Krasnianka ==
Hello @[[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]], @[[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] and @[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]], could you please have a look at [[User:Gitz6666/sandbox#Placement of military objectives near civilian objects|this sandbox]] and modify the text as you think best? Perhaps the text is too long - should we shorten it a bit? I'd like to publish it asap and, once it gets reverted, we can have an RfC using this text and the two questions formulated by Alaexis on the talk page, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1103623562&oldid=1103612493&diffmode=source here]. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz6666]] as I wrote on the article talk page, I think the official response about Ukraine military needing to be stationed near civilians and attempting to evacuate them must be mentioned. See the coverage of Maliar's briefing in [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/04/ukraine-civilians-army-bases-amnesty-russia-war this Guardian article]. [[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] ([[User talk:PaulT2022|talk]]) 15:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz6666]] Hmm. I think it is well written, but don't know if we should mention all of the sources and not just cite them. But we can ask that in the RfC as well. <span id="AdrianHObradors:1660148692307:User_talkFTTCLNGitz6666" class="FTTCmt">[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]] ([[User talk:AdrianHObradors|talk]]) 16:24, 10 August 2022 (UTC)</span>
::Yes, please change the text as you wish. Citing the sources instead of mentioning them could be a good way of shortening the text, we just need to avoid SYNTH. And we should strengthen the part on the criticisms and add the official response by the military, by all means. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:15, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::maybe also @[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] would like to help us improve the text. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:I am happy that you guys decided to make an RfC.[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:02, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:It looks very good, thanks for putting it together. I have just two comments
:# Maybe we should say in the beginning that "The international humanitarian law says that each party to the conflict must, to the extent feasible, avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas." [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule23]
:# In the RfC I would ask three questions:
:## Should the article have the section dealing with the placement of military objectives near civilian objects?
:## If the answer to Q1 is yes, should the version you've written be used? If the answer to Q2 is no, please explain what changes are needed.
:## Should the subsection on Stara Krasnyanka be included as proposed? [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]]<sub>[[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]]</sub> 20:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::Thank you for your suggestions @[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]]@[[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]]@[[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]].
::# I agree with the formulation of three questions by Aleaxis here above.
::# As suggested by Aleaxis, I added an introductory line on IHL. There's not only Rule 23 which is relevant here but also [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule24 Rule 24], so I quoted it.
::# I added the coverage of Maliar's briefing in the Guardian, as suggested by PaulT2022.
::# I slightly modified the text here and there - e.g. some info about the school in Yahidne, to make the section more balanced and informative.
::# If editors suggest us to shorten the text, then I'd follow AdrianHObradors's proposal - quoting the sources instead of mentioning them one by one. For the sake of simplicity I didn't change the text right now - if we loose the RfC it will be a waste of time anyway.
::If you want to do some editing in the sandbox, please help yourself. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:03, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::One minor change. Was also thinking whether we should change “emblematic” to “typical” or something similar, as “emblematic” is not a word I have seen in common use. However I see it is also quoted in the Times of Israel report, so I guess we should leave. Rest looks fine. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 23:00, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::::Thank you, Ilenart626. A mysterious word. Had the OHCHR clearly said "it might have been a case of using human shields", our work as editors would have been much simpler. Instead it said that it was "emblematic of its concerns", and one wonders - what the heck is the "emblem" (the symbol) of a "concern"?!? couldn't they just say what they want to say? Anyway... thank you for the editing! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:09, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Hi Gitz, wondering if it is worthwhile to request an uninvolved editor to [[Wikipedia:CLOSE|formally close the discussion]]. Might save a lot of arguements. I did this recently on another dispute and it worked well. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 04:53, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Thanks @[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]], good idea. As you have some experience with this, would you like to make the request? Otherwise I can do it myself but later on in the day or maybe tomorrow, thanks. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::ok, done refer [[Wikipedia:Closure requests#Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#RfC_on_military_objectives_near_civilians_and_Stara_Krasnianka_attack]] [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 09:33, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
==[[WP:Wikihounding]]==
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&type=revision&diff=1104942904&oldid=1104823457] - You never edited this page before. You followed my edits in a matter of hours only to revert them. You provided no explanation on article talk page, at least so far. Please do not do it again. Thanks. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 20:23, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
*:This is a poor reply to the helpful warning I gave you on your talk page: {{diff|prev|1104945479}}. I wasn't on [[Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis]] because of you. I was looking into the edit history of IP 187, whose recent block continues to surprise me: {{diff|prev|1103440965}}. Anyway, this message of yours prompted me to have a look at your recent edit history. The last edit you made, this one {{diff|prev|1104971932}}, is questionable: why do you remove the whole text if you can easily find the source? It's really not difficult as one only needs to search on google the text in the quotation marks. I hope you don't feel harassed by this {{diff|prev|1104990236}} and I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings, but we all are here to build an encyclopedia. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
:::I think it is clear from your reverts and personalized edit summaries [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1105014005&oldid=1105003398],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104979327&oldid=1104970597] that you do wikihounding. As about that another page were you followed my edits ''again'' (your diff), I removed unsourced contentious content that someone else already marked as unsourced. No, this is not my obligation to be looking for sources in such cases. This is an obligation of someone who included such materials. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 08:49, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
::::It's not a matter of {{tq|my obligation}}! This is a collaborative project, and if you stumble upon a "citation needed" tag before removing the text you should at least make an attempt at finding the missing source, which here was super easy - there was a verbatim quotation and you could have just made a search on google. Can't you see the difference between disruptive and productive editing? Re my edit summaries, there's nothing pointing at wikihounding. They invite you to do what you should do: refrain from edit warring and open a discussion, explain your edits on the talk page, build a consensus. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:08, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Will you please stop following my edits? Thanks. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 09:28, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::As I told you, I didn't follow your edit. But I should: I see that you're now meddling in [[Disinformation]] removing the sentence {{tq|[disinformatin] referred generally to lying and [[propaganda]]}} {{diff|prev|1105010718}}, which is a funny (not so funny) way of replying to the question I asked you on the talk page of [[Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis]]: {{tq|Could you please tell us, MVBW, what's the difference between "propaganda" and "disinformation"?}} I asked you that question because in your edit summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prev&diff=1104970119&oldid=] you claimed that propaganda {{tq|is not the same as disinformation}}. How do you answer my question? By modifying [[Disinformation]]!?! Too bad... [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
*As a reply to this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dennis_Brown&oldid=1105342415#Madiation_at_Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis], I think my edit summaries were sufficiently clear, for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104970597&oldid=1104970119]. However, your edit summary for revert of the same edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104979327&oldid=1104970597] did not really explain ''why'' did you revert. Something being for a long time on the page is NOT a valid reason to keep. Perhaps it did not properly summarize cited sources, did not belong to specific section of the page, etc. Now, you claimed in your edit summaries that some of my edit summaries were misleading. If so, you are very welcome to start the thread ''on article talk page'' (not on my talk page) and explain. Maybe I would agree with you? But you did not start such threads and did not explain. Instead, you did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gitz6666/sandbox&oldid=1105300543 this]. That does look like a [[WP:Battle]] to me. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 03:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
*:You had removed that text from the lead because [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104823457&oldid=1104822425] {{tqb|improper summary in the lead: the Ghost of Kyiv was only briefly mentioned on the page, and while apparently a myth and morale booster, is not generally described as disinformation or information warfare}} That reason was wrong because, as I explained to you when I revered you, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104942904&oldid=1104941924] {{tqb|The New York Times is not exclusively concerned with the Ghost of Kiev, which is quoted as paradigmatic of a more general concern: "some of the country’s official accounts have pushed stories with questionable veracity, spreading anecdotes". Therefore their assessment "Disinformation has also been part of Ukrainian online propaganda"}}
*:Did you read the New York Time piece? If so, why did you claim that the source was not about "disinformation or information warfare"? "Disinformation has also been part of Ukrainian online propaganda" is a verbatim quotation.
*:Anyway, when you removed the same text again offering a completely different rationale {{tqb|This is partly sourced [why partly?], but an improper/unbalanced summary of content in the body of the page. We can not dedicate 50% of the lead to something only briefly noted on the page}}
*:it was clear to me that you were adjusting your arguments strategically and that time for discussing via edit summaries was over. So I invited you to open a thread on the talk page, which was necessary also because you were making other massive removals of text and sources. Instead of disrupting other editors' work for no reason apart pushing an anti-Russian POV, you should try to build consensus on the talk. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:Re to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dennis_Brown&diff=prev&oldid=1105479774 this]. Removing poor quality content or something that does not belong to pages is almost as important as creating new content. On that particular page I did not hinder or stonewall anything. I will reply to content-related issues only on article talk page and only if I regard it as a productive discussion. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 14:03, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
== Notice Concerning Discretionary Sanctions ==
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You have shown interest in '''Eastern Europe or the Balkans.''' Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|discretionary sanctions]] is in effect. Any administrator may impose [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Sanctions|sanctions]] on editors who do not strictly follow [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies]], or the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Page restrictions|page-specific restrictions]], when making edits related to the topic.
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This notice is just a formality required by ACDS. No imputation of improper conduct is intended. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 16:24, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:Thanks @[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]]l. If you think I should revert this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=prev&oldid=1105506040&diffmode=source revert], please let me know. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:32, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
::If you are concerned that you have done more than one revert in the last24 hrs then yes, you should self-revert. Also, with 1RRin place I generally encourage discussion over reverts unless you believe the edit in question is really unhelpful. And of course, 1RR does not apply to naked vandalism, BLP and copyright violations. Best regards... -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 16:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:::yes, that revert of mine undoes four separate edits by MVBW, as I explained on the talk page, so I was in doubt whether it counts for one or not. But if I'm not wrong, it still counts as one single revert, because that's what it is. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:55, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
::::While I'd be inclined to let that go, I would encourage discussion to avoid any unpleasantness. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 17:35, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
== RfC clarity ==
This is not a nasty-gram, just a suggestion. I would have written your recent RfC more like this:
How should DPR and LPR be described?
# '''breakaway puppet quasi-state(s)'''
# '''Russian-supported breakaway state'''
I think the list of options makes it more clear than was the list of questions. But I wouldn't try changing it now. [[User:Adoring nanny|Adoring nanny]] ([[User talk:Adoring nanny|talk]]) 15:13, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for your suggestion @[[User:Adoring nanny|Adoring nanny]]. You're certainly right and next time I'll follow your suggestion. I copied this way of framing the question from the RfC now open in War crimes in Ukraine: if I'm not wrong, your comment is still missing there. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:44, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
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==Reply==
Re to your comment on my talk page. Since your previous version of the text has been rejected at the RfC, I think you could suggest new version of your text at article talk page that would be agreeable for ''everyone'' taking part in discussions on ''article'' talk page. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:50, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
== Hugo Krabbe ==
Hi Gitz, I've seen you created the article on Hugo Krabbe and wanted it to be reviewed. What I mention is just what I see as good on wikipedia, but I had rather good experiences with this. I tend to add a source for each phrase (except for the lead). The article seems to have solid sources and if you could add a source to the end of each phrase the article might catch more interest from a potential reviewer. I do not though offer myself as reviewer, this is just some advice as I wouldn't be encouraged to review in this state. But from my point of view the article sure has a potential for a GA and judging from the sources you are not far from it. [[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]] ([[User talk:Paradise Chronicle|talk]]) 19:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for the suggestion @[[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]], it's much appreciated. As soon as I can, I'll do my best to comply with it, although I might have lost a bit of touch with the sources I used when I wrote the article, which was a few months ago - I forget quickly. It's a pity though that you don't offer yourself as reviewer, as you've already given me a good advice. All the best, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
::{{done}} [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 21:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
== The dates that DPR and LPR declared independence ==
As far as I can tell, the DPR and LPR ''de facto'' declared independence several days before the status referendums were held. The status referendums were effectively the '''second''' time that independence was declared. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 18:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:Actually I don't know anything about this. Why do you tell me, @[[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]], is there any mistake that needs to be corrected? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:07, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:: In the article about DPR/LPR international recognition, it says that the declaration of independence occurred after/during (really quite vague) the status referendum. However, the two republics both "proclaimed" themselves to exist several days or weeks earlier, and then held the status referendums. After the referendums were successful, they declared independence for a second time. This is my understanding of the situation. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 19:26, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::Maybe you're right! Sources? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:56, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::: I don't have a source on me at the moment. I just remember being confused a few weeks ago, reading about it, and finding a news video of the DPR proclaiming its independence at a podium, several days earlier (according to the date of the video). The declaration after the referendum is more like the "reaffirmation" of independence. The DPR was created before the referendum took place... I think that's self-evident. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:05, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::The two status referendums both occurred on 11 May 2014. After the vote was successful, the DPR and LPR declared independence (at what day exactly? who knows... maybe a few days later). However, the DPR was initially proclaimed on 7 April 2014, whereas the LPR was initially proclaimed on 27 April 2014. The terms "proclaim" and "declare" are very similar in meaning. The only difference maybe is that "proclaim" is more revolutionary whereas "declare" is more official. The DPR and LPR were both initially created via a revolution (i.e. military force), and subsequently declared independence after a "democratic" (note: disputed) vote. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Okay, so what I can gather from the information I've found is that the DPR and LPR ''might not have'' technically "declared independence" back on 7 April and 27 April respectively. Instead, it can be ''possibly interpreted'' that they declared themselves to exist inside of Ukraine. So, it is ''possibly'' almost like they internally seceded within Ukraine, without actually seceding outside of the country altogether. It's ''possibly'' like they created a new province inside Ukraine. After the referendums were held, they seceded from the country entirely. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928] [https://www.rferl.org/a/separatists-declare-luhansk-peoples-republic/25364894.html] [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Quoting the second source ([https://www.rferl.org/a/separatists-declare-luhansk-peoples-republic/25364894.html]) - "We declare the establishment of a <u>sovereign state</u> - the Luhansk People's Republic... From now on, we are a free, independent Luhansk People's Republic." This is what the English translation says, and I can't speak Russian or Ukrainian, so I don't know what was actually said (but I'm presuming that the translation is accurate). The article was written on 28 April, and the video footage is from 27 April (not taking into account time zones). [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Quoting the first source ([https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928]) -- again, it might be lost in translation: "The congress... from Donetsk... proclaims a sovereign state, Donetsk People's Republic." This dates back to 7 April. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::That means that our articles are correct, am I right? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::: The articles are correct in the info-boxes, yes, but a lot of the prose (paragraphs) all around the topic on Wikipedia don't explicitly say that the declarations of independence occurred on 7 April and 27 April. Instead, many of the paragraphs refer to the status referendums as the date of independence, which is inaccurate. One such article that does this is "[[International recognition of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic]]". [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
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==Arrivederci altrove==
Caro {{Reply to|Pequod76}} ti rispondo qui, anziché sulla tua talk, perché mi sono accorto che questa risposta, anche se è per te, non è solo per te. Preferisco quindi questo spazio. <br>
Su una cosa voglio rassicurarti subito. Non ho rinunciato affatto alla “battaglia di principio” più importante, scrivere l'enciclopedia. Semplicemente, penso di poterla portare avanti altrove, in modo più proficuo e meno stressante: qui su en.wiki, spero, e in altri luoghi di ricerca. La mia risposta a Gianfranco è stata ben ponderata, era pronta da tempo e sono fiducioso che mi porterà più felicità e lavoro produttivo. L'adesione al progetto quindi non è cessata, si è solo trasferita di sede.<br>
La verità è che collaborare con voi è troppo faticoso, almeno per me. Non mi riferisco a te personalmente: tu sei prezioso, Pequod, sai quanto ti stimo. E come per te, ho stima per molti altri: '''[[:it:Utente:Frognall|Frognall]], [[:it:Utente:Carmela Angela|Carmela Angela]], [[:it:Utente:LarManLor|LarManLor]], [[:it:Utente:Giannidice|Giannidice]], [[:it:Utente:Cloj|Cloj]], [[:it:Utente:Mαρκος|Mαρκος]], [[:it:Utente:Parma1983|Parma1983]], [[:it:Utente:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]], [[:it:Utente:WalrusMichele|WalrusMichele]], [[:it:Utente:Etienne|Etienne]], [[:it:Utente:Sakretsu|Sakretsu]], [[:it:Utente:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]]''' e chissà quanti ne dimentico (ho ovviamente perso le mie pagine di discussione). Posso collaborare benissimo anche con persone con cui sono spesso in disaccordo, come '''Kirk39, TrinacrianGolem o Tommasucci'''. Persino '''Ignis''' ho molto rivalutato col tempo: penso che la colpa di quel che è successo tra noi sia soprattutto nella patologica insufficienza dei meccanismi di soluzione dei conflitti su it.wiki. E non mi riferisco alla mancanza dell'ArbCom, ma al fatto che gli admin di regola si astengono, se possibile, dalle discussioni tra un collega e un utente sconosciuto, sospetto "problematico", e quando partecipano evitano di prendere apertamente posizione a favore di quest'ultimo. Altro che ArbCom, su it.wiki non ci sono nemmeno la mediazione e la RdP! Come possono funzionare bene le cose così?<br>
Ho fatto questo elenco (incompleto) di utenti perché mi dispiace non averli potuti salutare e in alcuni casi nemmeno conoscere, cioè non abbiamo quasi interagito. Mi piacerebbe trovare un modo per far loro arrivare il mio congedo e ringraziamento (puoi aiutarmi in questo?). Avete utenti preziosi su it.wiki ma l’ambiente – soprattutto l’adminship e alcune utenze storiche – è spesso inospitale. Potrei sbagliare su questo, ma sono convinto che la ragione sia che, non essendovi mai dati delle procedure, non siete nemmeno riusciti a sviluppare una cultura interna della ''fairness'': nessun tipo di equanimità e distacco. In mancanza di procedure, qualsiasi tipo di autorità – anche quella che si basa sul prestigio, sull’esperienza e dedizione al progetto – prima o poi è condannata ad essere “cricca”, cioè potere arbitrario personale. Lo è agli occhi degli outsider, che facilmente si sentono umiliati e trattati ingiustamente, e lo è nei fatti. <br>
L’ultimo episodio non voglio commentarlo, tanto è chiaro e lampante. Dopo quel che è successo su quella pagina, che è sotto gli occhi di tutti, il cartellino giallo me lo becco io? Anzi, due cartellini gialli, se consideriamo la vicenda del Manuale di stile. Come è possibile giustificare quel genere di aggressioni? Rispondimi Pequod, per favore: ti sembrano conformi alle linee-guida del progetto o sono abusi? Se pensi che quei cartellini gialli e tutta la dinamica che li ha prodotti siano giustificabili, allora ha pienamente ragione Gianfranco: ''incompatibilità con il Progetto'' (non però ''violazione irredimibile della WikiQuette'', quella no: io sono sempre stato testardo, ma educato e rispettoso con tutti). <br>
Comunque in quell’ambiente non posso lavorare sereno, e non riesco a pensare una ragione per restare. Da tempo le persone che mi vogliono bene si stupiscono e mi chiedono chi me lo faccia fare: perché accettare quelle dinamiche degradanti, avendo del resto io altre cose importanti di cui occuparmi (due figlie, una moglie e un lavoro)? Alla fine a questa domanda non sono più riuscito a trovare una risposta sensata, di qui la decisione di andarmene. Ma, ti ripeto, non ho nessuna intenzione di rinunciare alla “battaglia”: il mio andarmene è un “arrivederci altrove”. Ti auguro buon tutto, spero che prima o poi riusciate a risolvere i problemi che vi travagliano e che, temo, non coincidono con la mia contribuzione (quella ve la siete tolta), problemi che potrebbero tormentare altri utenti in futuro come lo hanno fatto in passato. Ma se tu avessi bisogno di qualcosa, wikipidianamente parlando, mi trovi qui. Non ho nessun rancore verso di te e spero che ci potremo incontrare ancora.<br>
P.S. e fate qualcosa per la storia dei concetti, su! Il mio STUB fa schifo e non è pubblicabile, IMHO, ma il tema merita il lavoro di qualcuno, prima o poi. --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:Ti ringrazio per la tua risposta. Mi spiace che tu abbia vissuto così male il tuo tempo su it.wiki. sono lontano dal pensare che gli amministratori di it.wiki siano perfetti o infallibili. Solo ritengo che una convivenza poteva essere cercata e trovata, sviluppando una fiducia reciproca. Ora non posso dilungarmi. Intanto un caro saluto. [[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]] ([[User talk:Pequod76|talk-ita.esp.eng]]) 10:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]] Volevo chiederti: ci sarebbe modo di avere (ovviamente via email) un copia-e-incolla della mia user page su it.wiki? Stupidamente non ho pensato di farla, anche se Gianfranco mi ha lasciato il tempo, credo proprio per questa ragione (o forse per recuperare la sandbox). Come sai, usavo la mia user page come "diario di viaggio", con appunti sulle cose che via via facevo o su cui intervenivo. Ho una pessima memoria e devo usare supporti esterni. Sarebbe possibile riaverla, ad uso di archivio personale? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 11:29, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:::Mi dispiace molto, davero molto per quello che è successo. E mi fa ritornare in mente un altro utente prezioso che abbiamo perso, come Xinstalker. Mi sono permessa di inserire i link alle persone che dicevi che avresti voluto salutare (in questo modo arrivano a loro le notifiche), ti ringrazio per la stima, la stessa che ho nei tuoi confronti. Trovi la tua pagina utente [https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Utente:Gitz6666&oldid=125092344 qui], così te la puoi salvare. Un abbraccio, ci vediamo in giro, non ti perderò di vista, stai certo. --[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia]] ([[User talk:Camelia.boban|talk]]) 20:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
::::Ciao Gitz, volevo solo dirti che mi dispiace per quanto successo : quando un utente vive male la sua contribuzione all'enciclopedia, tanto da pensare di non poter cercare e raggiungere una convivenza e che andarsene sia la scelta migliore, sicuramente qualcosa non ha funzionato. E ogni utente che se ne va è una perdita per it.wiki. Spero che ti sentirai più a tuo agio nel continuare a contribuire qui. Un saluto! --[[User:Postcrosser|Postcrosser]] ([[User talk:Postcrosser|talk]]) 23:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:::::Cara @[[User:Postcrosser| Postcrosser]], grazie. Ti confesso una cosa: in una prima stesura del messaggio qui sopra, ti avevo indicata tra le utenze che volevo ringraziare e salutare. Poi ho tolto il nome perché ho pensato che mi avresti considerato pazzo: a parte una volta, in cui mi hai dato un’indicazione per la questione degli interlink di Sofistica (se non sbaglio), non abbiamo mai avuto occasione di collaborare. Ma io “da lontano” ho apprezzato il tuo stile (senza contare che sei genovese come me) e quindi questo tuo messaggio mi fa piacere – grazie. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:38, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::::Ti ringrazio @[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]] per la pagina utente! Mi hai consentito di ritrovare anche le pagine di discussione (non sapevo che fosse possibile) e quindi le tracce di alcune utenze che avevo dimenticato nei ringraziamenti: '''Dapifer''' e '''Bologai''', di cui ho molta stima, '''Gambo7''', '''Threecharlie''', '''Bultro''' e '''Lorenzo Longo''', che sono stati utili e gentili, '''Popop''', con cui ho potuto interagire in modo civile anche quando in disaccordo, e soprattutto la cara '''Geoide''', che mi aveva dato qualche consiglio tempo fa, e le cui vecchie conversazioni ho potuto leggere per iniziare a conoscere il modo wikipediano. Che peccato che si sia allontanata dal progetto – anche lei, temo, amareggiata. Quanto al confronto che fai tra me e Xinstalker, è ovviamente sbagliato e troppo generoso: lui ha contribuito alla vita e ai contenuti di it.wiki 100 volte più di me, nessun paragone è possibile. Ma il confronto è calzante in questo: l’UP con la quale è stato infinitato è il segnale di un problema. Mi aveva colpito e, assieme ad altri materiali letti nel tempo e alle mie esperienze personali, aveva contribuito a formare la mia cattiva opinione delle modalità di soluzione dei conflitti di it.wiki. Leggendo quell’UP una cosa è chiara come il sole: una decisone presa in quel modo non è tale da poter essere accettata come legittima da chi non ne condiva già il contenuto. Ma le procedure non servono (solo) a prendere meno decisioni sbagliate, servono anche a far accettare le decisioni (giuste o sbagliate che siano) a chi non le condivide nel merito. Le cose non possono funzionare così e da questo punto di vista, e solo da questo, il confronto tra me e Xinstalker, tra i miei due cartellini gialli e la sua UP, è convincente. Ma soprattutto, cara Camelia, grazie di cuore per il tuo lavoro su it.wiki, di cui ho capito bene l’importanza per molte/i. La tua stima mi onora. Un abbraccio, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
== Messaggio per te ==
Ciao Gitz6666, non ho pratica di questa wiki, ma ti voglio esprimere la mia vicinanza e il rammarico di aver ricevuto la segnalazione della discussione sull'arbitrato troppo tardi. Io non credo di contare gran che in it.wiki, ma il tuo lavoro sul Protestantesimo ha fatto nascere in me la speranza che si potesse collaborare, tu su quel versante, io su quello cattolico. Ti stimo per la caratura delle tue capacità e per aver sognato una realtà più concreta, umana, tollerante. Ti abbraccio e mi auguro che si facciano avanti anche altri: grazie di tutto. --[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]] ([[User talk:AmaliaMM|talk]]) 17:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]] Ti ringrazio per il messaggio affettuoso. Ho apprezzato le nostre discussioni e soprattutto la qualità eccellente del tuo lavoro: it.wiki è davvero fortunata ad averti. Mi rammarico che là non sarà più possibile cooperare, ma ogni tanto verrò a vedere come procede il vostro lavoro (silenziosamente - ca va sans dire). Se in futuro avrai bisogno della mia cooperazione wikipediana, mi trovi qui e sarò sempre disponibile per te! Un caro saluto, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:17, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
::Hai anche la stima di un atea, ho apprezzato molto i tuoi commenti sulle ultime voci sulle quali ha lavorato {{ping|LorManLor}} e che sono state poi dichiarate di qualità. La misura con le queli lo hai fatto, l'approfondimento e la citazione colta. A presto 🤗. --[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia]] ([[User talk:Camelia.boban|talk]]) 20:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:::<small>In realtà @[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]], @[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]], @[[:it:Utente:LorManLor|LorManLor]], anch’io sono ateo come Camelia. Sono finito a occuparmi di Lutero e di luterani su it.wiki quasi per puro caso, perché mi interessa l’età moderna e la costruzione dello stato. Di nuovo grazie per tutto, un abbraccio e buon lavoro su it.wiki!</small> [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:::::Ciao Gitz, sono molto molto dispiaciuta per quello che è successo, sia dal punto di vista umano che per la perdita per it.wiki della collaborazione di un utente così prezioso come te, ritengo sia uno spreco terribile che doveva essere evitato in tutti i modi. Grazie per la tua competenza, gentilezza, e anche sì, testardaggine nel sostenere il tuo punto di vista, che ritengo legittimo e motivato. Spero possiamo incrociarci ancora, auguri per tutto, un fortissimo abbraccio.[[User:LorManLor|LorManLor]] ([[User talk:LorManLor|talk]]) 12:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::::Grazie @[[User:LorManLor|LorManLor]] per il messaggio gentile e per le tre belle voci di cui ho potuto discutere con te. Complimenti per il bel lavoro e per i riconoscimenti meritatissimi! Un abbraccio, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Mi unisco anche io, dato che ora è toccato a me un blocco che trovo eccessivo.--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 11:23, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
:Tre mesi di blocco per aver fatto gli auguri di buona Pasqua? Mi spiace, @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], non ti amareggiare e lasciali perdere. --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:05, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
::Ti ringrazio. Un saluto anche ad [[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]], qui sopra di me, sperando porti avanti il suo lavoro che avevo già notato in molte occasioni.--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 12:08, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
:::Caro @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], toglimi una curiosità. Che cosa avevi scritto di così intollerabile nella pagina "Controversie legate a Wikipedia" poco prima di essere bloccato per 3 mesi per aver fatto gli auguri di Pasqua? Mi riferisco alla "Modifica decisamente fuori luogo", che è stata addirittura oscurata. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:21, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
== Mi spiace... ==
... di essermi accorto di quanto stava accadendo quando ormai la frittata era fatta. Forse (e sottolineo <u>forse</u>!) avrei potuto provare a darti qualche umile consiglio su come porti in certi frangenti, ossia astenersi dal rimbeccare a caldo, contare fino a mille e magari cambiare pagina e passare a occuparsi d'altro. In parte scherzo, e in parte no. Normale che ci siano vedute diverse tra gli utenti di una wiki, come pure tra wiki diverse. Se in tante wiki l'arbitrato è già una realtà, questo non significa che debba essere presente anche su it.wiki. Forse, banalmente, i tempi non sono maturi, inutile incaponirsi per accelerarli, ammesso pure che un giorno ci arriveremo, inutile un muro contro muro che ha spesso conseguenze spiacevoli, molto spiacevoli. Ci sono cose che io non condivido, ma <u>'''SE'''</u> l'obiettivo primario è collaborare al Progetto, tutto il resto deve passare in secondo piano, accettiamo serenamente anche le regole che meno ci piacciono e ''tiremm innanz''. Pensa che giusto ieri sera t'avevo mandato un ping per Caravaggio, sperando così di risolvere un aspetto che avevi segnalato, e quando Tommasucci mi ha fatto notare quello che era successo sono rimasto senza parole. Ti esprimo il mio sincero apprezzamento per come ti ho visto operare nella rubrica e ti saluto cordialmente. --[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] ([[User talk:Er Cicero|talk]]) 09:18, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
P.S.: peccato, davvero peccato per come è andata, ma lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile.
: Caro {{Reply to|Er Cicero}}, grazie per il messaggio. Non dubito che tu abbia ragione: in molte occasioni avrei potuto evitare di replicare. Si è trattato di botta e risposta in cui a replicare eravamo in due, e credo che i miei toni fossero meno aggressivi e inappropriati di quelli del mio interlocutore, ma è certo che <u>'''SE'''</u> avessi avuto una più forte spinta a rimanere su it.wiki, mi sarei dovuto comportare diversamente. E anche sull'arbitrato è probabile che tu abbia ragione. Più che proporre una soluzione determinata (l'arbitrato), forse non utile né attuabile, io intendevo richiamare l'attenzione su un problema secondo me reale; ma chissà che certi comportamenti prevaricatori, contrari alle linee guida, non possano essere affrontati senza bisogno di nuove regole, con la collaborazione di tutti, prima di "escalare" in conflitti distruttivi, che fanno male a tutti. Unica cosa, non capisco a che cosa ti riferisci con ''lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile''; se ti riferisci alla mia risposta a Gianfranco, forse è stata imperdonabile ma - come spiegavo qui sopra a Pequod - ti assicuro che non è stata uno sbrocco. A parte questo, sono felice di potermi congratulare con te per l'ottimo lavoro che ti ho visto fare in questi mesi nelle procedure di qualità. Non è un lavoro facile e si regge in gran parte sulle tue spalle. Complimenti! --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::Beh, secondo me "non mi interessa collaborare con dei prepotenti (o meglio, sotto il dominio dei prepotenti,...)" te lo potevi risparmiare, così come la chiosa ironica "Buon divertimento nel piccolo mondo virtuale che vi siete inventati, spero che siate contenti del vostro lavoro". E' stato un modo per chiedere tu stesso di chiudere la tua esperienza su it.wiki (almeno a me così pare). E non posso che rammaricarmene. Buon tutto. --[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] ([[User talk:Er Cicero|talk]]) 10:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:::In effetti ammetto che avrei voluto correggere quel messaggio in questo modo: "piccolo/grande mondo virtuale" (perché è una piccola comunità, è vero, ma si affaccia su un grande mondo ed è impegnata in un lavoro grande) e "vi auguro di essere soddisfatti del vostro lavoro" (anziché "spero che siate contenti", che è sarcastico, mentre l'augurio può essere sincero). Avrei invece lasciato la parte sui "prepotenti" perché, al di là delle buone intenzioni dei singoli, la credo vera. Ho provato a correggere il testo in questo modo, ma era già troppo tardi - per quel che vale, lo faccio ora. Grazie di nuovo e saluti, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::scusami, avevo dimenticato di pingarti @[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 11:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Hospes tantum nequeo Franca decisa reprehendere ac nolo, sed tu, ὦ [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D473 νεῖκος ἄριστε] Gitz, ignosces mihi. --[[User:Frognall|Frognall]] ([[User talk:Frognall|talk]]) 21:00, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Frognall|Frognall]], [[:it:Aiace_Oileo|Touché]]. Ti risponderei, per continuare il gioco, [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0185%3Acard%3D872 κράτος δ᾽ ὅτῳ κράτος μέλει παραβατὸν οὐδαμᾷ πέλει: σὲ δ᾽ αὐτόγνωτος ὤλεσ᾽ ὀργά]. Guarda però che io sono persona mitissima, solo con poca attitudine a farmi maltrattare per nessuna ragione. Non sono un attaccabrighe, ma la massima a cui cerco di attenermi sempre è: se un lavoro non dà gioia, tientene lontano. Per il resto, come ho detto a Pequod, "collige quae [[:it:Bozza:Storia_dei_concetti|superaverunt fragmenta]] ne pereant". Lui però nemmeno su questo si è mostrato molto sollecito… cioè non si è voluto far rifilare la patacca! Vedi tu. Un caro saluto, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
::Traduco, in caso ci fosse un amico che ci legge: "il potere, per chi ha caro il potere, non ammette trasgressione. La tua ira, che decide da sé, ti ha perduta" (Antigone) e "Raccogli le briciole avanzate, perché niente si perda" (da Giovanni 6:12). [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:34, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
== Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield ==
Good day Gitz6666. Thank you very much for your attention to the article [[Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield]]. Few editors seem to add citations and your contribution is therefore especially precious and welcome. Unluckily, you seem to have the wrong lady. The description of a beautiful lady on page 141, which you cite, is that of Miss Hamilton. Lady Chesterfield is described on p 167. Besides, you cite the book as <nowiki>{{Cite book|last=Hamilton|first=Anthony|url=https://archive.org/details/memoirscountgram00hamimiss/page/n175/mode/2up|title=Memoirs of Count Grammont|publisher=E.L. Carey & A. Hart|year=1836|location=Philadelphia|pages=141|author-link=Antoine Hamilton}}</nowiki> I do not find a publication date on this edition and the title page indicates that the publisher is David McKay and not E.L. Carey & A. Hart as you say. Where did you get the information from? I edited the article and corrected the page citing from the Gebbie edition of 1888, which is better documented but identical for the rest. How did you get to [[Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield]]? Do you have a special interest in her or in [[Antoine Hamilton]] and his book? Best regards, [[User:Johannes Schade|Johannes Schade]] ([[User talk:Johannes Schade|talk]]) 15:59, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Hugo Krabbe]] has been accepted ==
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 1.5em; width: 90%;">[[File:AFC-Logo.svg|50px|left]] '''[[Hugo Krabbe]], which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.'''<br />
Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions. <br />
The article has been assessed as '''Start-Class''', which is recorded on its [[Talk:Hugo Krabbe|talk page]]. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they [[Wikipedia:Article development|develop]] over time. You may like to take a look at the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Grading scheme|grading scheme]] to see how you can improve the article.
<div class="autoconfirmed-show">Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now [[Wikipedia:Your first article|create articles yourself]] without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]] if you prefer.</div>
If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the '''<span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit§ion=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Hugo_Krabbe help desk]</span>'''.<span class="unconfirmed-show"> Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to [[Wikipedia:Your first article|create articles yourself]] without posting a request to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]].</span>
If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider {{leave feedback/link|page=Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation|text=leaving us some feedback}}.
Thanks again, and happy editing!
[[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:02, 6 March 2022 (UTC)</div><!--Template:Afc talk-->
== Re:peggio della politica ==
Thanks! I replied to you by e-mail. --[[User:Conviene|Conviene]] ([[User talk:Conviene|talk]]) 19:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
==Commenting about other users on article talk pages==
Please keep in mind that article talk pages exist only for discussing improvement of the corresponding page. Your comments on my talk page were fine, even if poorly substantiated, but [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1079792010&oldid=1079791162 that] was not. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:34, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for removing your comment. But you constantly accuse me of bias. Yes, I certainly have personal views about it (everyone has). But I am trying to follow all rules including NPOV in main space. For example, would not you agree with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1079845024 this]? [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 23:06, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
::Honestly I thought you might be biased, but even if it were so, that wouldn't be a problem. As you rightly say, we all have views. It's impossible to establish who, if any, is "truly neutral" here. The only way of achieving a certain acceptable degree of neutrality is through discussion and consensus. I objected to having all those poorly sourced (even posts on telegram!) "attacks on civilians" that do not qualify as war crimes, and I'll try to make the case for splitting the article; but I haven't started to remove them from the article, because it's only my view, maybe people from Ukraine or elsewhere are sending those contents to us, we should be respectful and take time and care. With regard to the criterion for the lead you ask me about: to me it looks overly complicated. The lead should change and will change but as a starting point, it seems to me that it should briefly announce the various areas touched upon in the article, as a sort of summary for the reader. Honestly, if one reads the lead now, it is clear that the Russian army are behaving horribly, and I don’t think we are underplaying their responsibility. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
:::I did watch YouTube records mentioned [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Footage_of_captured_Russian_soldiers here] with great interest. Obviously, these Russian pilots (those who bombed children in Ukrainian cities) and others were under a psychological pressure, and I am not sure they apologized sincerely to Ukrainian people. So, it did look to me as a doubtful excercize, unless that was needed to improve the spirits of Ukrainian people and reveal a few interesting details about these pilots being misinformed by their commanders. Still, I can not compare that "torture" (certainly, these pilots felt ashamed, exactly as they should be) with the death, incapacitation and injury of peaceful people they have bombed. These pilots should be tried for their war crimes if you ask me. But in terms of WP coverage, I think my comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1079845024] explains it. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 00:57, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
::::I agree with you: the videos of the Russian PoW calling their mum, crying and expressing regret, etc., do not amount to torture. "Abuse" is a reasonable word, I guess, or maybe "exploiting for propaganda purposes". However, deliberatly shooting 3 PoWs in the legs and let them bleeding is torture, if that's what's happened. By the way, I've just read this in the report by Bogner: "Since the invasion by the Russian Federation, people believed to be thieves, bootleggers, pro-Russian supporters or curfew violators have been beaten in territory controlled by the Government of Ukraine. We have received credible allegations of more than 40 such cases of ill-treatment by police officers, volunteer defence force members and others". I think you'll agree: this doesn't qualify as war crime, or at least RS doesn't say so explicitly, so let's leave it out. With regard to the lead, I personally have nothing against you or anyone else adding text to it - now is too poor - provided that we keep it fairly balanced and not emphatic or in any way apologetic. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:17, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
:::::Only 40 cases of ill-treatment by police officers? I am sure there are many more such cases in the USA. As about Russia, the entire police force works for the [[Mafia state]]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:33, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
::::::I am afraid you're right! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
== Do not remove other people's comments ==
as you did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1081051484] here. That's a pretty quick way to earn yourself a block.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:04, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:I'm afraid you'll get blocked if you keep on disrupting the talk in this way. It's not a place for venting anger. We discuss on the contents there, and you're making a mess out of it. Plus that OP is a [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attack]] against a fellow editor, User:Dunutubble (''For fuck's sake, this also restores the idiotic notion that ... Gimme a break. There's absolutely no source for such a claim (probably because it's patently ridiculous). The given source certainly doesn't say anything so stupid. But it's also frankly offensive ... I am very tempted to report this fairly transparent violation...'''). It's unacceptable. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
::That is not a personal attack. The comment discusses the content not a person. I am not "venting anger". Now THAT is discussing a person not content, so THAT could qualify as a personal attack.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small>
::Regardless, it's not YOUR job to police the talk page and remove other people's comments. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_others'_comments WP:TALK]<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] With regard to the DS alert here below, note that it says "To opt out of receiving messages like this one, place {{tlx|Ds/aware}} on your user talk page and specify in the template the topic areas that you would like to opt out of alerts about". I have placed that template on my talk page, so you should avoid doing this. Don't you see that the way you behave is disruptive? I have other staff to do here and you are wasting my time, and other editors' time, for no reason. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:35, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
== Talk typo? ==
I think you may have meant {{tq|I will open a ''thread''...}} in your recent comment at [[Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#PossibleTypo]] but it currently says something quite different. --[[User talk:N8wilson|N8<sub>wilson</sub>]] 01:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
== Infobox ==
Ciao, perdonami, ma qui non abbiamo le categorie automatiche dei template sinottici?--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 17:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
:Ciao @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], mi hai colto in castagna! Ti confesso che a leggere "categorie automatiche dei template sinottici" sono rimasto basito: per me è aramaico, non ho idea di che cosa tu stia parlando. Allora mi sono messo a studiare e posso dirti questo:
:1. Alla tua domanda non so rispondere.
:2. Questa è la linea guida del manuale di stile sulle infoboxes (template sinottici): [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]], questa è la linea guida sulla categorizzazione: [[Wikipedia:Categorization]], questa è la pagina di aiuto sulle categorie: [[Help:Category]], questo è un "saggio" su quando non fare un infobox perché è inutile: [[Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes]] (su it.wiki non esistono i saggi; si tratta di opinioni e consigli non vincolanti, spesso confutati da altri saggi di segno contrario, come questo "inclusionista" sugli infoboxes, [[Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes can be useful]]),.
:3. Qui trovi una pagina di aiuto molto generale su come iniziare a collaborare con en.wiki: [[Help:Getting started]] e qui trovi una pagina di aiuto su come fare domande, richieste di informazioni e di aiuto, ecc.: [[Wikipedia:Questions]]. Come vedi, sulla destra c'è "Personal help on your talk page": formuli una domanda e un editor ti risponde sulla tua pagina discussioni utente (user talk page).
:P.S. Su en.wiki puoi cancellare tutto quello che vuoi dalla tua talk page, quindi se la tua domanda è sbagliata o la risposta non è utile, la puoi cancellare tranquillamente.
:Ciao, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
== Warcrimes page ==
thanks for taking the time to prepare the post on the Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine page. Lets see if we get any other Editors participating. Like you I am starting to think their are better things to do in my life than endless arguements over these issues. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 21:48, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] thank you for the good work. I think I'm going to take a break from that article, as I'm disappointed by the lack of support from other editors. I hate seeing war crimes discourse being hijacked for petty political goals: if there are more war crimes against my party, that means that I'm (on the side of) the True Victim, which in turn means that... we're going to win the war? NATO will enter the war and war crimes will cease? Russian people will be ashamed and they'll ask their soldiers to behave nicely? I don't even understand the point of playing this ridiculous game of POV pushing on an article as that one, it shows disrespect for the real victims and it's utterly useless. Plus, I resent the way Anonimu was provoked and excluded: they brought it upon themselves, but it wasn't fair and it caused damage to our work. Or maybe what's happening is not [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] and [[WP:DISRUPTIVE]] and what I perceive as fair balance is out of touch with the prevailing views in the community. Either way it' better if I take a break and move to other projects. But thank you again for the nice work, I enjoyed collaborating with you. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:47, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
== Outstanding article ==
Hi, I'm GizzyCatBella. I came across an article [[Hugo Krabbe]] you created, and I've read it with great interest. I believe this is an excellent article, well sourced, flawlessly formatted, immaculate. Thank you very much. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 10:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you so much @[[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] for your kind message! This truly means a lot to me. I have spent a good deal of time on that article, I hadn't received any feedback so far and I was a bit disappointed about that. I had also asked a peer review but none has answered my call and the review is still deserted: [[Wikipedia:Peer_review#Hugo_Krabbe]] and [[Wikipedia:Peer_review/Hugo_Krabbe/archive1]]. You cheered my up! Thank you. Any help in improving the article (starting from the quality of the English, which is not my mother tongue) is more than welcome. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
== May 2022 ==
[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Hello! Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your contributions. At least one of your edits, while it may have been in good faith, was difficult to distinguish from [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. To help other editors understand the reason for the changes, you can use an [[Help:Edit summary|edit summary]] for your contributions. You can also take a look at the [[Wikipedia:Introduction|welcome page]] to learn more about contributing to [[Wikipedia|this encyclopedia]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-subtle1 --> [[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 13:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:What a coincidence, I have just written to you. Which edit are you referring to? I see that you undid my edit here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088855205&oldid=1088854875&diffmode=source] with the surprising object "misleading edit summary". My summary was exceptionally detailed! I had literally described each and every changed I had made: "Added sources (Guardian + Le Monde), reference to "torture" (which cannot be disputed), reference to the results of the investigations by Le Monde and others + fixed mistake in the spelling of the village where this happened". If you don't agree, you should at least explain why, and that edit summary of yours unfortunately doesn't help. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 13:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
::So basically @[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] if you don't explain why my (detailed and thorough) edit summary is "misleading", one is left with no reason at all for your revert. You should either write: "misleading edit summary: POWs had not been tortured" (and I could open a discussion on this), or "misleading edit summary: Le Monde has been misrepresented" (and I could open a discussion), or "it happened in Malaya Rohan, not in Mala Rohan" (again, we could discuss about that). But if you just say "misleading summary", what should we be discussing about? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 14:05, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:::You made subsection name changes and removed content without indicating such in the summary. [[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 14:08, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
::::So, first of all I see that you are now admitting that your summary "misleading edit summary" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088855205&oldid=1088854875&diffmode=source] is indeed misleading. The edit you reverted had a good summary. So I suggest you self-revert that edit of yours. You can undo my edit but you should explain your reason.
::::Secondly, as you can see, I indicated everything in the summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088831172&oldid=1088797956&diffmode=source]: "There's no reason for believing that both sources are about same issue: one refers to Borodyanka, the other took place in Kharkiv. The intercepted conversation with sadistic mum fails WP:V, heading must be compliant with MOS:HEAD. See talk and don't restore until consensus is reached". So what are you talking about? "heading must be compliant with MOS:HEAD" obviously refers to a change in the heading, don't you think so? Plus I had already explained everything on the talk page (that you desert) so this is really ludicrous. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 14:19, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] I was trying to make sense of what happened and I noticed that in fact [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088854875&oldid=1088852269&diffmode=source this edit of mine] also changed the heading plus removed some contents. After all, your "misleading edit summary" was not... entirely misleading! I did it inadvertently (probably I thought I had already published those early changes). I apologise for that.
:::::However, please note the following:
:::::- A discussion has been going on on the talk page since the 18 May. I pinged you but you didn't join.
:::::- In that discussion 4 editors apart from myself expressed their views, and at 10:00, 20 May 2022 I made a proposition which ''perhaps'' might have enjoyed a consensus, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088828327&oldid=1088810407&diffmode=source here]; I then modified the article accordingly and explained everything in the summary: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088831172&oldid=1088797956&diffmode=source].
:::::- Obviously if you don't agree you can revert, but then please explain your reasons by joining the discussion. These reverts are not helpful if the goal is to reach a consensus: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=next&oldid=1088848134&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=next&oldid=1088848291&diffmode=source].
:::::I think we can't reach a consensus through editing here and we should avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates over contents ([[WP:REVTALK]]); we should rather use the talk page.
:::::Anyway, sorry again about my sloppy summary. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:51, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
== I reverted you ==
I might have let it stand if you had allowed me to disagree with M. Bitton, as he did quickly move to personal attacks, but as it is, you were wrong to not allow me to answer him. I mean, who he?
Meanwhile, I did at one point split your comment and tried to fix that; possibly we overwrote each other, and I see you may have done something about this in the same edit. For the record, I have no objection to you moving the second part of your comment above my reply if this is still an issue after my revert. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 17:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
:thanks for the message, my comment and your replies to me as they are now are OK. With regard to the template:hidden, I had the impression that that discussion between you and M.Bitton was off topic and made it more difficult for others to join the discussion. If you want that discussion back to full visibility, I've nothing to object but let me suggest you to disengage: clearly there's a history of hostility between you two, and in these cases leaving a couple of days to "cool down" is always advisable. By the way, as a third uninvolved party let me tell you that you were the first one to escalate ("I've explained to you a few times now that other languages exist and see no reason to punish my carpals to go through this with you again"). Maybe you've been a bit too harsh without intending it? In that case, apologies always clean the air. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard]]==
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Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard]] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[WP:CSD#A3|section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|help]] or [[Wikipedia:Reference desk|reference]] desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see [[Wikipedia:Stub#Essential information about stubs|Wikipedia:Stub]] for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on [[Wikipedia:Notability|notable]] subjects and should provide references to [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the {{Querylink|Special:Log|qs=type=delete&page=Edwin+Montefiore+Borchard|deleting administrator}}, or if you have already done so, you can place a request [[WP:RFUD|here]]. <!-- Template:Db-nocontent-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 00:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
:Hello @[[User:Mhawk10|Mhawk10]], I've made a mistake. I intended to create a redirect, so I should have written <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[Edwin Borchard]]</nowiki>; instead I wrote <nowiki>{{Redirect|Edwin Borchard}}</nowiki>. I've made the same mistake with [[Edwin M. Borchard]] and now I've corrected it. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
::Hi! I've turned [[Edwin Montefiore Borchard]] into a redirect per your comment above and I've removed the speedy deletion tag. — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 00:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
== Lyudmyla Denisova ==
In the end, it was the Ukrainian parliamentarians themselves, together with 140 public figures, activists and professionals, who also accused her of making unverifiable statements about alleged sexual crimes by Russian troops.[https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-05-31/card/ukraine-s-parliament-dismisses-human-rights-chief-1kQWT7i0GHXyeqh6spRe][https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmila-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920]--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 19:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
:Grazie, @[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]], ero a conoscenza di questo. Forse si potrebbe mettere l'informazione nel punto appropriato della voce War Crimes. La discussione a RS/N ha preso una piega surreale quando la notizia si è diffusa e alcuni utenti hanno continuato a dire che l'informazione era comunque sufficientemente verificabile! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
::A giudicare da quello che sta succedendo alla voce sui crimini di guerra e sulla sua voce personale, sembra ci sia l'intenzione di evitare di parlare dell'accaduto. [[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
== 3RR warning ==
[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|left|alt=Stop icon]] Your recent editing history at [[:War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]] shows that you are currently engaged in an [[Wikipedia:Edit warring|edit war]]; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|talk page]] to work toward making a version that represents [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle|the bold, revert, discuss cycle]] for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant [[Wikipedia:Noticeboards|noticeboard]] or seek [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]]. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary [[Wikipedia:Protection policy|page protection]].
'''Being involved in an edit war can result in you being [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]'''—especially if you violate the [[Wikipedia:Edit warring#The three-revert rule|three-revert rule]], which states that an editor must not perform more than three [[Help:Reverting|reverts]] on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—'''even if you do not violate the three-revert rule'''—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.<!-- Template:uw-3rr -->
:I made three and no more than three reverts in a 24-hour period: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094473817&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094477121&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094498261&diffmode=source]. Therefore, as far as I understand, I complied with [[WP:3RR]]. The editor who applied the template:3RR and who forgot to sign it is {{Ping|Volunteer Marek}}. They themselves performed three reverts in that page: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094135458&oldid=1094125345&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094476007&oldid=1094473817&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094477430&oldid=1094477121&diffmode=source]. As an involved editor who is engaged in the very same behaviour they are complaining about, they are not in the position to use the 3RR template. I think they just got nervous because they have [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Volunteer_Marek's_incivility_and_POV-pushing|a pending case]] at WP:ANI, which I initiated. The fact that they forgot to sign also suggests the template was applied out of spite. They should be reminded that one needs to {{tq|Be careful about issuing templated messages to editors you're currently involved in a dispute with}}, as per [[WP:CIV]]. I strongly recommend Volunteer Marek to careful read (possibly a couple of times and taking notes) the whole policy one finds at WP:CIV. They would benefit enormously from doing so. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 06:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::Notification is required prior to a report. You made 3 reverts within FOUR hours. ANI at discussion is pretty much telling you that you should be mindful of [[WP:BOOMERANG]] and most commentators (except a couple usual suspects from the War Crimes article) are telling you that you are indeed in the wrong as to the substance. You should pay heed.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 15:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
:::I don't agree with your reading of the discussion at ANI. I think your incivility and relentless pov-pushing are being exposed there. Anyway, re edit warring I think you should just stick to the WP:BRD cycle and don't revert when you're being reverted. Just seek consensus on the talk page and if you don’t get it (as on this occasion), just let things be: we are not playing a war game here, let alone fighting a war on account of the Ukrainian people. We're just writing an encyclopedia, and your editing style is blocking us. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::::You made three reverts in less than four hours so please don't try to lecture me about BRD. Here are some comments from ANI that you might find relevant:
::::''"I will not be suprised if this report ends up in a WP:BOOMERANG (against Gitz6666)"''
::::''"I'm definitely concerned by Gitz's clear attempt to slide in content with weasel word caveats while sliding out reliably sourced content in Wikivoice"''
::::''"while they (Volunteer Marek) might be forthright in their opinions, their contributions could not be considered exceptional wrt civility or POV. I have found them to be generally acceptive of broader consensus."''
::::''"Yeh, Gitz666 has a POV here."''
::::''"I am of the general opinion that that Gitz6666 is POV-pushing problematically here "''
::::''"Gitz purpose (in this area) is to edit in and promote Russian propaganda and excuse/deny war crimes, that is clear from their editing. Just broadly topic ban them from the Russian invasion of Ukraine"''
::::These are all from six DIFFERENT editors. Offering this piece of advice in 100% good faith: read the room.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 19:17, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::the thing is, @[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]], I ''know'' that I'm not a Russian pov-pusher. If someone says otherwise, that's relatively indifferent to me. It means that either they're pov-pushers themselves or that they're not well-informed. Moreover, I ''know'' that you're a pov-pusher: the exclusive or prevailing reason why you're here is pursuing a political agenda. If you were honest you'd admit it yourself: you're not at all interested in writing a collective encyclopaedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality. What I really don't know, however, is which standard of (in)civility this community deems intolerable. The way you behave is clearly exceptional in that regard, but I don't know if it's something that the community is ready to accept. We'll see it. I've done my best to expose the way you behave and will continue to ask the community to uphold its policies. If in the process I get topic banned or blocked, be it: nobody really gets hurt. I'll work on other projects and I'll be content with myself. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::Well, I tried to give you good faithed advice. It's really all I can do and rest is up to you.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 00:00, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::::[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]], Gitz is doing the difficult thing here, which is trying to keep an article neutral in a situation like this where not only almost everyone in Wikipedia, but also a lot of press, are not neutral. And not without a reason, after all there is a war going on. Your contributions, Marek, are great many times, but I also believe that they often fail NPOV. And this is not a critique, it is hard to keep a NPOV on a subject like War Crimes. <span id="AdrianHObradors:1656327007877:User_talkFTTCLNGitz6666" class="FTTCmt">[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]] ([[User talk:AdrianHObradors|talk]]) 10:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)</span>
::::::::You need to read [[WP:3rr]] carefully. It’s not an allowance. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 18:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
==RfC==
Since you asked for comments... You should not be doing [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gitz6666/sandbox2&oldid=1096504148 this] because you misrepresent comments by other contributors. My main argument was never false balance. I am simply telling that an event should be significant enough for inclusion ''as follows from its coverage in RS'', no matter what "side" of the conflict. For example, if an event was covered only in few RS when it had happen, but not covered later, it probably has no "lasting significance". If it was just mentioned somewhere over the comma (",...,"), then again, it is not notable enough to be included to an already very long page. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 12:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
:Hello @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]], it was [[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] the one who argued that their reason for remopving the section was WP:UNDUE/false balance: see their opening post on the talk page at 23:00, 18 June 2022, {{tq|But we absolutely must have an article and text in this article about THAT ONE maybe-Ukrainian missile!!!!!! Because "balance" or some shit. I'm sorry but that kind of approach is just sick. And it's the quintessence of violating WP:UNDUE to push a POV ("both sides do it!!!!")}}. So I basically tried to summarise also their view, and while in the process I had to drop a few exclamation marks, I dont' think I misrepresented anything substantial. However, if you don't want to be associated with that argument, I think we could drop any reference to the 6 or 7 editors who joined the discussion instead of removing arguments which were actually made. Don't you agree? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] I've just changed the text as described here above. Please chek it and tell me if it's now OK for you or if you think that there's anything that needs to be added or removed from the summary of your arguments. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:38, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
:::If you want to post an RfC, please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Statement_should_be_neutral_and_brief this] and check how other people do it. I think you should not mention any specific contributors at all (just make a link to relevant discussion/section on article talk page). If people want to say something, they will comment at the RfC. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 15:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
[[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested  at [[Talk:Greased piglet#rfc_B4662CC|'''Talk:Greased piglet'''  on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) | Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. | Sent at 14:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
==AE report==
I made a report about your editing here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Gitz6666 here]. You are welcome to reply. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 04:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:This is ridiculous - what an appalling waste of time! Anyway I'll be travelling today and tomorrow, and I'll do my best to reply as soon as I can. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::::Re to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=prev&oldid=1099022443 this]. Sure thing, everyone has an opinion, admitted, and it is difficult to remain neutral. But one should just follow all our editing policies. That is what I am trying to do. In this case, you are saying that one should be "mitigating the responsibilities of the Russian army or documenting allegations of war crimes by the Ukrainian side". I do agree this is something you are trying to do, but I think you crossed the line in a number of cases, for example, by systematically removing well sourced content that contradicts your personal bias - as illustrated by diffs in my request. This is contrary to the policies, as me and other contributors tried to explain to you in a number of discussions we had. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::Please @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]], may I suggest you answer my question at AE and share a few diffs showing that you comply with our policies and guidelines such as NPOV, DISRUPTIVE and TENDENTIOUS? otherwise the boomerang effect might be resounding. You see, you're right in saying that everyone has an opinion, but you're also neglecting a fundamental difference between you and me. I don't edit War crimes in Ukraine for advancing my personal political views, I work on that article because I truly believe that building an encyclopedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality is an excellent effort in a time of war: it promotes knowledge, understanding, sympathy for the victims and accountabity for the perpetrators. Plus, I literally don't give a fuck about the Ukrainian/Russian divide; I see only victims and perpetrators. You, on the contrary, you are there just because you oppose the Russian regime, I guess. Therefore you're a liability, you make it more difficult to do our job (which is basically WP:E, WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:RS) and you waste lots of time. I respect your political views and your motivations, but I also believe that if dispute resolution works well you'll get at least topic banned. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::Oh no, based on the diffs provided, I think you are clearly editing on the side of the Russian state if there is such "side". I can not speculate about your motivation. And you are wrong about my motivation. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:52, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:But to answer your AE question, no, I hardly made any really substantial contributions in this subject area. I have time only to fix a few minor things, occasionally participate in discussions, or file an AE request if I believe that someone does something really detrimental to the project. Indeed, I believe that even your [[WP:BLUDGEON]] of talk pages on this subject could warrant such request... [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 14:51, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Thank you for answering @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]]. I understand that your answer is basically "No": you cannot provide any diff showing that you, at least on one occasion, have removed a fishy, ill-sourced allegation against the Russian army or have included a sound, well-sourced allegation against the Ukrainian army. Nor have you made any comment on the talk page that couldn't be possibly construed as "relentless anti-Russian POV pushing".
::The first reason for this is - you say - that you {{TQ|hardly made any really substantial contributions in this subject area.}} But you are way too modest! You have made no less than 95 edits to [[War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]] [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=]. See? a nice 4.35% of the total edits made to the page. Truth be told, you are only at number 41 in terms of authorship. You've added only 766 characters to the article, a disappointing 0.3% of the text (I've added 74,240 characters, 29.2% of the text). And why is that, MVBW? The reason for this mismatch is that almost all your edits are reverts: you're basically disrupting other editors' work, that's what you do. You don't actually engage in building an encyclopedia, you have other stuff to do here.
::Please, have another look at this [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=], and tell me if you think that a community of editors should tolerate this kind of behaviour; please compare with this [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=Gitz6666&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&max=500&server=enwiki].
::Secondly, you say that you {{TQ|occasionally participate in discussions}}. Again, you are way too modest: 219 edits to the talk page, 10.66% of the total edits made to the page [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=Talk%3AWar_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=]. Authorship statistics are not available for talk pages, but I'm be ready to bet that you are the second contributor to our discussions. We've spent hours discussing together and believe me: not on one occasion have you ever made anything but pushing an anti-Russian POV. Am I wrong? No, I'm not, you know I'm not. Everybody already knows in advance on what side your arguments are going to fall, which basically makes them useless. And the same applies to Volunteer Marek.
::Finally, you summarise your third contribution to War crimes in Ukraine as follows: {{TQ|occasionally [I] file an AE request if I believe that someone does something really detrimental to the project}}. You don't specify what project are you referring to - do you mean the Ukrainian military effort? It is true that you filed an AE request against Mhorg, [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive307#Mhorg|here]], and most of it was about BLP and how to account for Denisova's dismissal; and yet in the article on Denisova you inserted factually wrong information, as I demonstrated to you in [[Talk:Lyudmyla Denisova#"An open letter from 140 activists ... opposed her removal."|this thread]] to which you never replied. Now you file another request against me - well done. I'm wondering if they'll understand that you are a blatant case of [[Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing|civil POV-pushing]].
::There's only one thing that I really don't know. What the hell did you mean when you said that {{tq|you are wrong about my motivation}}? Isn't the point of all your being here just opposing the Russian government? What did I miss? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:40, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
:::Well, even this brief discussion shows what is the problem with your editing. You grossly misinterpreted my comment. I only said I am a low-key contributor in this area, nothing else. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:47, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::"Low-key contributor in this area" is not accurate. You are as much a contributor to War crimes in Ukraine as a chicken bone stuck in your throat is a contribution to the dinner. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::As about "have another look at this [...], please compare with this [...]", no, such comparison tells very little. One should look at individual edits. Yes, I frequently remove poorly sourced, misinterpreted and otherwise problematic content. This is all. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::I don't believe it's a good thing to have you here {{tq|frequently}} removing contents that you deem {{tq|poorly sourced, misinterpreted and otherwise problematic}}. But tell me, why are the contents you remove always and exclusively about war crimes allegedly committed by the Ukrainian army? Why have you NEVER encountered similarly poorly sourced, misinterpreted and problematic contents about a war crime allegedly committed by the Russian army? It's a genuine (as opposed to rhetoric) question: have you ever thought about it? do you have an answer [[ping|My very best wishes]]? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC); edited 23:39, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::::Why I NEVER removed content about war crimes by Russian army? No, of course I occasionally removed such content, for example, in the biggest removal I made on this page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1095028410]. Here I removed something that was presumably a false flag attack by ''Russian'' forces [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1093987907]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
== Indiscriminate attack(s) ==
The draft at [[User:Gitz6666/sandbox4]] for '''Indiscriminate attack(s)''' looks good and very likely to survive any notability challenges, IMHO, though I see it's still in draft stage. There might be a debate about how similar articles in Wikipedia are named - as singular or plural. Singular is more like a dictionary definition, and plural is more about "the thing in general" - that's my impression, at least for categories. But mainspace usage will count more than category style. This is an obviously important article. There are some fields of knowledge where en.Wikipedia is still missing many key articles. [[User:Boud|Boud]] ([[User talk:Boud|talk]]) 16:35, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for your message @[[User:Boud|Boud]]. Unfortunately I haven't worked on that draft for a while, but I'll do my best to finish it in the next few days. I'm sure the topic is notable enough and I'm happy to help filling a gap. Re singular/plural I haven't thought about it, I've now made a quick search on similar articles (e.g human shield, hostage) and singular seems prevailing but I don't have strong views on this - if you think plural is best, I'll follow your advice. I'll let you know when the article is published and I'd be grateful if you will edit it or add it to your watchlist. Best, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
::I don't have strong views on it either - so I suggest sticking to the singular when you have time to get back to it. [[User:Boud|Boud]] ([[User talk:Boud|talk]]) 22:07, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
:::Hello @[[User:Boud|Boud]], yesterday I published a first draft of the article [[Indiscriminate attack]], but I'm still working on a section on "history" and on the images. If you want to edit it or add it to your watchlist, that's great. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
== Indiscriminate attacks ==
I've just tweaked two of your recent edits re this; see the edit summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine%E2%80%93American_War&diff=next&oldid=1102768450 here], which mentions the other edit. What I've done here probably needs improvement in both articles edited. The [[Indiscriminate attack]] article might also need improvement, as suggested there. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 22:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
:Yes, @[[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]], you're right. I'm working on a section "History" in the article on Indiscriminate attack but it will probably be irrelevant to the articles on the Philippine–American War. They a contemporary terminology to refer to events that happened before the criminalisation of indiscriminate attacks and/or use a generic, non-legal sense of "indiscriminate attack". IN both cases a wikilink would not be useful. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
::Hi. Thanks for the response. This area is of some interest to me as it relates to the the U.S. military in the Philippines from 1898 to 1910ish, but it is not a focus area. Re the U.S., it seems to go back to Lieber, Lincoln, [https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lieber.asp General Order 100], and the [[Lieber code]]. c. 1863. Googling, I turned up some things which might or might not interest you. You've probably seen them, but I'll mantion a couple of them just in case: [https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.353.366&rep=rep1&type=pdf][https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul] (particularly Rules 11-14). Other items caught my eye, but I have not been able to quickly locate them again. Cheers. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 09:35, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
== 3RR report==
You are welcome to reply here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Gitz6666_reported_by_User:My_very_best_wishes_(Result:_)]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 02:53, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=prev&oldid=1103184046] - I did it by mistake, but you are more than welcome to restore. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:27, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
[[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested  at [[Talk:Likud#rfc_9580E4D|'''Talk:Likud'''  on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) | Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. | Sent at 07:40, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
==[[WP:NPA]]==
What you said here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=1103093401&oldid=1103057250],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=1103151829&oldid=1103151710] was a blatant personal attack. For the record, I am a cultural Russophile, meaning I am a fan of Russian poetry, songs and many other aspects of Russian culture. It does not mean that all aspects of Russian [[culture]] are great, but debating and criticizing them is normal in Russian politics and literature. I only said something that appears in the poetry cited on my talk page or in books, including even novels by famous [[Ivan Bunin]]. It does not mean that I support the current political regime in Russia and the suffering it brings to many nations including Russia itself. Quite the opposite. That's why I do not support [[Russian world]]. This is not really about culture, but a harmful propaganda that was used to justify the military aggression against other countries, and it defames all Russians around the world. So, you probably can count this as a political bias. But this is all. Please strike through or remove your comments. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:20, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] you don't understand the meaning of the word "culture" in "cultural racism". It has nothing to do with poetry, literature, etc. And the "slavish obedience and cruelty" of the Russian culture/character as an explanation for the invasion of Ukraine is paradigmatic of cultural racism. I won't strike through my comment but I suggest you remove your racist rant. Alternatively you can go around complaining about how deeply insulting it is that someone perceives Russian "slavish obedience and cruelty" as racist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
::Well, that was a summary of something well known from Russian literature. Consider [[Farewell, Unwashed Russia]], i.e. "...Land of slaves, land of masters...". Are you saying that [[Mikhail Lermontov]] was an anti-Russian cultural racist? Nonsense. Personally, I do not think that any culture is better than another, but they are very much different. However, I will note that you are refusing to apologize or remove your offensive and unjustified accusations. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Did Lermontov explain the war in Ukraine in terms of the "slavish obedience and cruelty" of the Russian people? In that case I'd say that, based on contemporary standards, he would qualify as a racist - yes. Attributing moral vices and virtues to peoples is always a tricky business: the cruel and slavish Russian, the cunning Jew, the lazy Italian, etc., are offensive, and are also extremely stupid. I won't pursue the matter further, but I strongly advise you to remove hateful contents from your talk page. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::No, that was not about any ethnic stereotypes ''at all''. What I cited was this:
<poem>
Ныне ль, даве ль?- все одно и то же:
Волчьи морды, машкеры и рожи,
Спертый дух и одичалый мозг,
Сыск и кухня Тайных Канцелярий,
Пьяный гик осатанелых тварей,
Жгучий свист шпицрутенов и розг,
Дикий сон военных поселений,
Фаланстер, парадов и равнений,
Павлов, Аракчеевых, Петров,
Жутких Гатчин, страшных Петербургов,
Замыслы неистовых хирургов
И размах заплечных мастеров.
Сотни лет тупых и зверских пыток,
И еще не весь развернут свиток,
И не замкнут список палачей...
([[Maximilian Voloshin|Voloshin]], 1920, Crimea)
</poem>
::::You would probably count even [[Lev Tolstoy]] as a "racist" for his criticism of Russian war in Caucasus [https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/arts/29iht-tolstoy.html] ("In “[[Hadji Murad]],” Tolstoy writes of a vicious circle of cruelty..." and so on). [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 10:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Saying that a war is cruel is not racist, saying that Putin is cruel is not racist, saying that a whole people is cruel may be racist; in this case, it was racist. Russia did not invade Ukraine because the Russians are cruel slaves. But I'm done with this conversation, which is very boring, and also pointless: I've never met anyone openly admitting to have said something racist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Whatever you think that was, you are missing the point. For example, if someone summarizes what sources say about [[racism]], that does not mean that he/she is a racist. I was asking "what in Russian culture/character made the atrocities [well-known through Russian history] possible?". This question has been debated many times in Russian literature (like in the novel by Tolstoy, etc.). That was my summary of these sources. If you disagree with Tolstoy or Voloshin, that's fine, but do not blame ''me'' of racism. Sure, there was some degree of WP:SYN in my comment, but I did not suggest including it on any pages. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 16:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Russian cruelty and servility is the wrong answer to the wrong question. You could ask that very same question about the Germans, Italians, British, Americans, etc., with the result of stereotyping national characters and always missing the truth. Atrocities always happen everywhere, and there's very little specific to national cultures to account for them. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I hope you are not going to deny that Russian and American cultures, for example, are very different, and that one can study these cultures and how they have affected the histories of the countries. Once again, I am not saying that one culture is better than another, but they very different. Would ''modern day'' US army commit [[Bucha massacre]] in Canada? Of course not. Why? There are many reasons, but one of them is the difference in culture. Of course the US army did bomb a number of wrong targets in Afghanistan, but the conduct of Soviet army in the same Afghanistan was still very much different, etc. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 21:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::what about the [[Mỹ Lai massacre]]? "Culture" doesn't explain anything: probably the culture of an American solider and that of a Russian soldier are much more similar than the culture of an American soldier and an American banker, journalist or HR activist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Sure thing, that was a terrible war crime by an unruly detachment. But did they do it with ''every'' Vietnamese village, or at least with every village close to which some activities by insurgents were found or suspected? Because that is what Soviet forces did in Afghanistan, Nazi forces did on the occupied Soviet territories, and yes, Russian forces do in Ukraine (and they do a lot more). That's the difference. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] I watched a few documentaries about modern-day US marines on YouTube and the dehumanisation modern US soldiers experience seems very similar to the depiction in [[Full Metal Jacket]]. There's nothing uniquely Russian about inhumane cruelty of soldiers Tolstoy writes about. Your interpretation of his works is rather peculiar. [[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] ([[User talk:PaulT2022|talk]]) 15:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::One can agree or disagree about it, but this is not a reason for making personal attacks like "racist rant" and so on. That was my point. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 18:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
== RfC on Amnesty and Stara Krasnianka ==
Hello @[[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]], @[[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] and @[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]], could you please have a look at [[User:Gitz6666/sandbox#Placement of military objectives near civilian objects|this sandbox]] and modify the text as you think best? Perhaps the text is too long - should we shorten it a bit? I'd like to publish it asap and, once it gets reverted, we can have an RfC using this text and the two questions formulated by Alaexis on the talk page, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1103623562&oldid=1103612493&diffmode=source here]. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz6666]] as I wrote on the article talk page, I think the official response about Ukraine military needing to be stationed near civilians and attempting to evacuate them must be mentioned. See the coverage of Maliar's briefing in [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/04/ukraine-civilians-army-bases-amnesty-russia-war this Guardian article]. [[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] ([[User talk:PaulT2022|talk]]) 15:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz6666]] Hmm. I think it is well written, but don't know if we should mention all of the sources and not just cite them. But we can ask that in the RfC as well. <span id="AdrianHObradors:1660148692307:User_talkFTTCLNGitz6666" class="FTTCmt">[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]] ([[User talk:AdrianHObradors|talk]]) 16:24, 10 August 2022 (UTC)</span>
::Yes, please change the text as you wish. Citing the sources instead of mentioning them could be a good way of shortening the text, we just need to avoid SYNTH. And we should strengthen the part on the criticisms and add the official response by the military, by all means. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:15, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::maybe also @[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] would like to help us improve the text. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:I am happy that you guys decided to make an RfC.[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:02, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:It looks very good, thanks for putting it together. I have just two comments
:# Maybe we should say in the beginning that "The international humanitarian law says that each party to the conflict must, to the extent feasible, avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas." [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule23]
:# In the RfC I would ask three questions:
:## Should the article have the section dealing with the placement of military objectives near civilian objects?
:## If the answer to Q1 is yes, should the version you've written be used? If the answer to Q2 is no, please explain what changes are needed.
:## Should the subsection on Stara Krasnyanka be included as proposed? [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]]<sub>[[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]]</sub> 20:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::Thank you for your suggestions @[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]]@[[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]]@[[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]].
::# I agree with the formulation of three questions by Aleaxis here above.
::# As suggested by Aleaxis, I added an introductory line on IHL. There's not only Rule 23 which is relevant here but also [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule24 Rule 24], so I quoted it.
::# I added the coverage of Maliar's briefing in the Guardian, as suggested by PaulT2022.
::# I slightly modified the text here and there - e.g. some info about the school in Yahidne, to make the section more balanced and informative.
::# If editors suggest us to shorten the text, then I'd follow AdrianHObradors's proposal - quoting the sources instead of mentioning them one by one. For the sake of simplicity I didn't change the text right now - if we loose the RfC it will be a waste of time anyway.
::If you want to do some editing in the sandbox, please help yourself. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:03, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::One minor change. Was also thinking whether we should change “emblematic” to “typical” or something similar, as “emblematic” is not a word I have seen in common use. However I see it is also quoted in the Times of Israel report, so I guess we should leave. Rest looks fine. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 23:00, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::::Thank you, Ilenart626. A mysterious word. Had the OHCHR clearly said "it might have been a case of using human shields", our work as editors would have been much simpler. Instead it said that it was "emblematic of its concerns", and one wonders - what the heck is the "emblem" (the symbol) of a "concern"?!? couldn't they just say what they want to say? Anyway... thank you for the editing! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:09, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Hi Gitz, wondering if it is worthwhile to request an uninvolved editor to [[Wikipedia:CLOSE|formally close the discussion]]. Might save a lot of arguements. I did this recently on another dispute and it worked well. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 04:53, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Thanks @[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]], good idea. As you have some experience with this, would you like to make the request? Otherwise I can do it myself but later on in the day or maybe tomorrow, thanks. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::ok, done refer [[Wikipedia:Closure requests#Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#RfC_on_military_objectives_near_civilians_and_Stara_Krasnianka_attack]] [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 09:33, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
==[[WP:Wikihounding]]==
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&type=revision&diff=1104942904&oldid=1104823457] - You never edited this page before. You followed my edits in a matter of hours only to revert them. You provided no explanation on article talk page, at least so far. Please do not do it again. Thanks. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 20:23, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
*:This is a poor reply to the helpful warning I gave you on your talk page: {{diff|prev|1104945479}}. I wasn't on [[Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis]] because of you. I was looking into the edit history of IP 187, whose recent block continues to surprise me: {{diff|prev|1103440965}}. Anyway, this message of yours prompted me to have a look at your recent edit history. The last edit you made, this one {{diff|prev|1104971932}}, is questionable: why do you remove the whole text if you can easily find the source? It's really not difficult as one only needs to search on google the text in the quotation marks. I hope you don't feel harassed by this {{diff|prev|1104990236}} and I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings, but we all are here to build an encyclopedia. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
:::I think it is clear from your reverts and personalized edit summaries [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1105014005&oldid=1105003398],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104979327&oldid=1104970597] that you do wikihounding. As about that another page were you followed my edits ''again'' (your diff), I removed unsourced contentious content that someone else already marked as unsourced. No, this is not my obligation to be looking for sources in such cases. This is an obligation of someone who included such materials. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 08:49, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
::::It's not a matter of {{tq|my obligation}}! This is a collaborative project, and if you stumble upon a "citation needed" tag before removing the text you should at least make an attempt at finding the missing source, which here was super easy - there was a verbatim quotation and you could have just made a search on google. Can't you see the difference between disruptive and productive editing? Re my edit summaries, there's nothing pointing at wikihounding. They invite you to do what you should do: refrain from edit warring and open a discussion, explain your edits on the talk page, build a consensus. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:08, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Will you please stop following my edits? Thanks. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 09:28, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::As I told you, I didn't follow your edit. But I should: I see that you're now meddling in [[Disinformation]] removing the sentence {{tq|[disinformatin] referred generally to lying and [[propaganda]]}} {{diff|prev|1105010718}}, which is a funny (not so funny) way of replying to the question I asked you on the talk page of [[Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis]]: {{tq|Could you please tell us, MVBW, what's the difference between "propaganda" and "disinformation"?}} I asked you that question because in your edit summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prev&diff=1104970119&oldid=] you claimed that propaganda {{tq|is not the same as disinformation}}. How do you answer my question? By modifying [[Disinformation]]!?! Too bad... [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
*As a reply to this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dennis_Brown&oldid=1105342415#Madiation_at_Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis], I think my edit summaries were sufficiently clear, for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104970597&oldid=1104970119]. However, your edit summary for revert of the same edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104979327&oldid=1104970597] did not really explain ''why'' did you revert. Something being for a long time on the page is NOT a valid reason to keep. Perhaps it did not properly summarize cited sources, did not belong to specific section of the page, etc. Now, you claimed in your edit summaries that some of my edit summaries were misleading. If so, you are very welcome to start the thread ''on article talk page'' (not on my talk page) and explain. Maybe I would agree with you? But you did not start such threads and did not explain. Instead, you did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gitz6666/sandbox&oldid=1105300543 this]. That does look like a [[WP:Battle]] to me. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 03:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
*:You had removed that text from the lead because [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104823457&oldid=1104822425] {{tqb|improper summary in the lead: the Ghost of Kyiv was only briefly mentioned on the page, and while apparently a myth and morale booster, is not generally described as disinformation or information warfare}} That reason was wrong because, as I explained to you when I revered you, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104942904&oldid=1104941924] {{tqb|The New York Times is not exclusively concerned with the Ghost of Kiev, which is quoted as paradigmatic of a more general concern: "some of the country’s official accounts have pushed stories with questionable veracity, spreading anecdotes". Therefore their assessment "Disinformation has also been part of Ukrainian online propaganda"}}
*:Did you read the New York Time piece? If so, why did you claim that the source was not about "disinformation or information warfare"? "Disinformation has also been part of Ukrainian online propaganda" is a verbatim quotation.
*:Anyway, when you removed the same text again offering a completely different rationale {{tqb|This is partly sourced [why partly?], but an improper/unbalanced summary of content in the body of the page. We can not dedicate 50% of the lead to something only briefly noted on the page}}
*:it was clear to me that you were adjusting your arguments strategically and that time for discussing via edit summaries was over. So I invited you to open a thread on the talk page, which was necessary also because you were making other massive removals of text and sources. Instead of disrupting other editors' work for no reason apart pushing an anti-Russian POV, you should try to build consensus on the talk. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:Re to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dennis_Brown&diff=prev&oldid=1105479774 this]. Removing poor quality content or something that does not belong to pages is almost as important as creating new content. On that particular page I did not hinder or stonewall anything. I will reply to content-related issues only on article talk page and only if I regard it as a productive discussion. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 14:03, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
== Notice Concerning Discretionary Sanctions ==
{{ivmbox | image = Commons-emblem-notice.svg |imagesize=50px | bg = #E5F8FF | text = This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. ''It does '''not''' imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.''
You have shown interest in '''Eastern Europe or the Balkans.''' Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|discretionary sanctions]] is in effect. Any administrator may impose [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Sanctions|sanctions]] on editors who do not strictly follow [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies]], or the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Page restrictions|page-specific restrictions]], when making edits related to the topic.
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This notice is just a formality required by ACDS. No imputation of improper conduct is intended. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 16:24, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:Thanks @[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]]l. If you think I should revert this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=prev&oldid=1105506040&diffmode=source revert], please let me know. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:32, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
::If you are concerned that you have done more than one revert in the last24 hrs then yes, you should self-revert. Also, with 1RRin place I generally encourage discussion over reverts unless you believe the edit in question is really unhelpful. And of course, 1RR does not apply to naked vandalism, BLP and copyright violations. Best regards... -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 16:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:::yes, that revert of mine undoes four separate edits by MVBW, as I explained on the talk page, so I was in doubt whether it counts for one or not. But if I'm not wrong, it still counts as one single revert, because that's what it is. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:55, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
::::While I'd be inclined to let that go, I would encourage discussion to avoid any unpleasantness. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 17:35, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
== RfC clarity ==
This is not a nasty-gram, just a suggestion. I would have written your recent RfC more like this:
How should DPR and LPR be described?
# '''breakaway puppet quasi-state(s)'''
# '''Russian-supported breakaway state'''
I think the list of options makes it more clear than was the list of questions. But I wouldn't try changing it now. [[User:Adoring nanny|Adoring nanny]] ([[User talk:Adoring nanny|talk]]) 15:13, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for your suggestion @[[User:Adoring nanny|Adoring nanny]]. You're certainly right and next time I'll follow your suggestion. I copied this way of framing the question from the RfC now open in War crimes in Ukraine: if I'm not wrong, your comment is still missing there. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:44, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
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==Reply==
Re to your comment on my talk page. Since your previous version of the text has been rejected at the RfC, I think you could suggest new version of your text at article talk page that would be agreeable for ''everyone'' taking part in discussions on ''article'' talk page. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:50, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
== Hugo Krabbe ==
Hi Gitz, I've seen you created the article on Hugo Krabbe and wanted it to be reviewed. What I mention is just what I see as good on wikipedia, but I had rather good experiences with this. I tend to add a source for each phrase (except for the lead). The article seems to have solid sources and if you could add a source to the end of each phrase the article might catch more interest from a potential reviewer. I do not though offer myself as reviewer, this is just some advice as I wouldn't be encouraged to review in this state. But from my point of view the article sure has a potential for a GA and judging from the sources you are not far from it. [[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]] ([[User talk:Paradise Chronicle|talk]]) 19:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for the suggestion @[[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]], it's much appreciated. As soon as I can, I'll do my best to comply with it, although I might have lost a bit of touch with the sources I used when I wrote the article, which was a few months ago - I forget quickly. It's a pity though that you don't offer yourself as reviewer, as you've already given me a good advice. All the best, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
::{{done}} [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 21:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
== The dates that DPR and LPR declared independence ==
As far as I can tell, the DPR and LPR ''de facto'' declared independence several days before the status referendums were held. The status referendums were effectively the '''second''' time that independence was declared. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 18:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:Actually I don't know anything about this. Why do you tell me, @[[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]], is there any mistake that needs to be corrected? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:07, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:: In the article about DPR/LPR international recognition, it says that the declaration of independence occurred after/during (really quite vague) the status referendum. However, the two republics both "proclaimed" themselves to exist several days or weeks earlier, and then held the status referendums. After the referendums were successful, they declared independence for a second time. This is my understanding of the situation. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 19:26, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::Maybe you're right! Sources? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:56, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::: I don't have a source on me at the moment. I just remember being confused a few weeks ago, reading about it, and finding a news video of the DPR proclaiming its independence at a podium, several days earlier (according to the date of the video). The declaration after the referendum is more like the "reaffirmation" of independence. The DPR was created before the referendum took place... I think that's self-evident. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:05, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::The two status referendums both occurred on 11 May 2014. After the vote was successful, the DPR and LPR declared independence (at what day exactly? who knows... maybe a few days later). However, the DPR was initially proclaimed on 7 April 2014, whereas the LPR was initially proclaimed on 27 April 2014. The terms "proclaim" and "declare" are very similar in meaning. The only difference maybe is that "proclaim" is more revolutionary whereas "declare" is more official. The DPR and LPR were both initially created via a revolution (i.e. military force), and subsequently declared independence after a "democratic" (note: disputed) vote. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Okay, so what I can gather from the information I've found is that the DPR and LPR ''might not have'' technically "declared independence" back on 7 April and 27 April respectively. Instead, it can be ''possibly interpreted'' that they declared themselves to exist inside of Ukraine. So, it is ''possibly'' almost like they internally seceded within Ukraine, without actually seceding outside of the country altogether. It's ''possibly'' like they created a new province inside Ukraine. After the referendums were held, they seceded from the country entirely. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928] [https://www.rferl.org/a/separatists-declare-luhansk-peoples-republic/25364894.html] [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Quoting the second source ([https://www.rferl.org/a/separatists-declare-luhansk-peoples-republic/25364894.html]) - "We declare the establishment of a <u>sovereign state</u> - the Luhansk People's Republic... From now on, we are a free, independent Luhansk People's Republic." This is what the English translation says, and I can't speak Russian or Ukrainian, so I don't know what was actually said (but I'm presuming that the translation is accurate). The article was written on 28 April, and the video footage is from 27 April (not taking into account time zones). [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Quoting the first source ([https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928]) -- again, it might be lost in translation: "The congress... from Donetsk... proclaims a sovereign state, Donetsk People's Republic." This dates back to 7 April. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::That means that our articles are correct, am I right? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::: The articles are correct in the info-boxes, yes, but a lot of the prose (paragraphs) all around the topic on Wikipedia don't explicitly say that the declarations of independence occurred on 7 April and 27 April. Instead, many of the paragraphs refer to the status referendums as the date of independence, which is inaccurate. One such article that does this is "[[International recognition of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic]]". [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
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4 => 'https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul',
5 => 'https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule23',
6 => 'https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule24',
7 => 'https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Utente:Gitz6666&oldid=125092344',
8 => 'https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=',
9 => 'https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=',
10 => 'https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=Gitz6666&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&max=500&server=enwiki',
11 => 'https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928',
12 => 'https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmila-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920',
13 => 'https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/arts/29iht-tolstoy.html',
14 => 'https://www.rferl.org/a/separatists-declare-luhansk-peoples-republic/25364894.html',
15 => 'https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/04/ukraine-civilians-army-bases-amnesty-russia-war',
16 => 'https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-05-31/card/ukraine-s-parliament-dismisses-human-rights-chief-1kQWT7i0GHXyeqh6spRe'
] |
New page wikitext, pre-save transformed (new_pst ) | '{{Ds/aware|e-e}}
{{Ds/aware|ipa}}
{{Ds/aware|tpm}}
== A belated welcome! ==
[[File:Chocolate chip cookies.jpg|thumb|The welcome may be belated, but the cookies are still warm! {{smiley}}]]
Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, Gitz6666! I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for [[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|your contributions]]. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may still benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians|Wikipedian]]! Again, welcome! '''[[User:AngryHarpy|<span style="color:#6363ed">Angry</span><span style="color:#a863ed">Harpy</span>]]'''<span style="visibility:hidden; color:transparent; padding-left:2px">{{zero width joiner}}</span><sup><small>[[User talk:AngryHarpy|<span style="color:#63a8ed">talk</span>]]</small></sup> 16:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)<!-- Template:Welcome-belated -->
==Arrivederci altrove==
Caro {{Reply to|Pequod76}} ti rispondo qui, anziché sulla tua talk, perché mi sono accorto che questa risposta, anche se è per te, non è solo per te. Preferisco quindi questo spazio. <br>
Su una cosa voglio rassicurarti subito. Non ho rinunciato affatto alla “battaglia di principio” più importante, scrivere l'enciclopedia. Semplicemente, penso di poterla portare avanti altrove, in modo più proficuo e meno stressante: qui su en.wiki, spero, e in altri luoghi di ricerca. La mia risposta a Gianfranco è stata ben ponderata, era pronta da tempo e sono fiducioso che mi porterà più felicità e lavoro produttivo. L'adesione al progetto quindi non è cessata, si è solo trasferita di sede.<br>
La verità è che collaborare con voi è troppo faticoso, almeno per me. Non mi riferisco a te personalmente: tu sei prezioso, Pequod, sai quanto ti stimo. E come per te, ho stima per molti altri: '''[[:it:Utente:Frognall|Frognall]], [[:it:Utente:Carmela Angela|Carmela Angela]], [[:it:Utente:LarManLor|LarManLor]], [[:it:Utente:Giannidice|Giannidice]], [[:it:Utente:Cloj|Cloj]], [[:it:Utente:Mαρκος|Mαρκος]], [[:it:Utente:Parma1983|Parma1983]], [[:it:Utente:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]], [[:it:Utente:WalrusMichele|WalrusMichele]], [[:it:Utente:Etienne|Etienne]], [[:it:Utente:Sakretsu|Sakretsu]], [[:it:Utente:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]]''' e chissà quanti ne dimentico (ho ovviamente perso le mie pagine di discussione). Posso collaborare benissimo anche con persone con cui sono spesso in disaccordo, come '''Kirk39, TrinacrianGolem o Tommasucci'''. Persino '''Ignis''' ho molto rivalutato col tempo: penso che la colpa di quel che è successo tra noi sia soprattutto nella patologica insufficienza dei meccanismi di soluzione dei conflitti su it.wiki. E non mi riferisco alla mancanza dell'ArbCom, ma al fatto che gli admin di regola si astengono, se possibile, dalle discussioni tra un collega e un utente sconosciuto, sospetto "problematico", e quando partecipano evitano di prendere apertamente posizione a favore di quest'ultimo. Altro che ArbCom, su it.wiki non ci sono nemmeno la mediazione e la RdP! Come possono funzionare bene le cose così?<br>
Ho fatto questo elenco (incompleto) di utenti perché mi dispiace non averli potuti salutare e in alcuni casi nemmeno conoscere, cioè non abbiamo quasi interagito. Mi piacerebbe trovare un modo per far loro arrivare il mio congedo e ringraziamento (puoi aiutarmi in questo?). Avete utenti preziosi su it.wiki ma l’ambiente – soprattutto l’adminship e alcune utenze storiche – è spesso inospitale. Potrei sbagliare su questo, ma sono convinto che la ragione sia che, non essendovi mai dati delle procedure, non siete nemmeno riusciti a sviluppare una cultura interna della ''fairness'': nessun tipo di equanimità e distacco. In mancanza di procedure, qualsiasi tipo di autorità – anche quella che si basa sul prestigio, sull’esperienza e dedizione al progetto – prima o poi è condannata ad essere “cricca”, cioè potere arbitrario personale. Lo è agli occhi degli outsider, che facilmente si sentono umiliati e trattati ingiustamente, e lo è nei fatti. <br>
L’ultimo episodio non voglio commentarlo, tanto è chiaro e lampante. Dopo quel che è successo su quella pagina, che è sotto gli occhi di tutti, il cartellino giallo me lo becco io? Anzi, due cartellini gialli, se consideriamo la vicenda del Manuale di stile. Come è possibile giustificare quel genere di aggressioni? Rispondimi Pequod, per favore: ti sembrano conformi alle linee-guida del progetto o sono abusi? Se pensi che quei cartellini gialli e tutta la dinamica che li ha prodotti siano giustificabili, allora ha pienamente ragione Gianfranco: ''incompatibilità con il Progetto'' (non però ''violazione irredimibile della WikiQuette'', quella no: io sono sempre stato testardo, ma educato e rispettoso con tutti). <br>
Comunque in quell’ambiente non posso lavorare sereno, e non riesco a pensare una ragione per restare. Da tempo le persone che mi vogliono bene si stupiscono e mi chiedono chi me lo faccia fare: perché accettare quelle dinamiche degradanti, avendo del resto io altre cose importanti di cui occuparmi (due figlie, una moglie e un lavoro)? Alla fine a questa domanda non sono più riuscito a trovare una risposta sensata, di qui la decisione di andarmene. Ma, ti ripeto, non ho nessuna intenzione di rinunciare alla “battaglia”: il mio andarmene è un “arrivederci altrove”. Ti auguro buon tutto, spero che prima o poi riusciate a risolvere i problemi che vi travagliano e che, temo, non coincidono con la mia contribuzione (quella ve la siete tolta), problemi che potrebbero tormentare altri utenti in futuro come lo hanno fatto in passato. Ma se tu avessi bisogno di qualcosa, wikipidianamente parlando, mi trovi qui. Non ho nessun rancore verso di te e spero che ci potremo incontrare ancora.<br>
P.S. e fate qualcosa per la storia dei concetti, su! Il mio STUB fa schifo e non è pubblicabile, IMHO, ma il tema merita il lavoro di qualcuno, prima o poi. --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:Ti ringrazio per la tua risposta. Mi spiace che tu abbia vissuto così male il tuo tempo su it.wiki. sono lontano dal pensare che gli amministratori di it.wiki siano perfetti o infallibili. Solo ritengo che una convivenza poteva essere cercata e trovata, sviluppando una fiducia reciproca. Ora non posso dilungarmi. Intanto un caro saluto. [[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]] ([[User talk:Pequod76|talk-ita.esp.eng]]) 10:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]] Volevo chiederti: ci sarebbe modo di avere (ovviamente via email) un copia-e-incolla della mia user page su it.wiki? Stupidamente non ho pensato di farla, anche se Gianfranco mi ha lasciato il tempo, credo proprio per questa ragione (o forse per recuperare la sandbox). Come sai, usavo la mia user page come "diario di viaggio", con appunti sulle cose che via via facevo o su cui intervenivo. Ho una pessima memoria e devo usare supporti esterni. Sarebbe possibile riaverla, ad uso di archivio personale? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 11:29, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:::Mi dispiace molto, davero molto per quello che è successo. E mi fa ritornare in mente un altro utente prezioso che abbiamo perso, come Xinstalker. Mi sono permessa di inserire i link alle persone che dicevi che avresti voluto salutare (in questo modo arrivano a loro le notifiche), ti ringrazio per la stima, la stessa che ho nei tuoi confronti. Trovi la tua pagina utente [https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Utente:Gitz6666&oldid=125092344 qui], così te la puoi salvare. Un abbraccio, ci vediamo in giro, non ti perderò di vista, stai certo. --[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia]] ([[User talk:Camelia.boban|talk]]) 20:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
::::Ciao Gitz, volevo solo dirti che mi dispiace per quanto successo : quando un utente vive male la sua contribuzione all'enciclopedia, tanto da pensare di non poter cercare e raggiungere una convivenza e che andarsene sia la scelta migliore, sicuramente qualcosa non ha funzionato. E ogni utente che se ne va è una perdita per it.wiki. Spero che ti sentirai più a tuo agio nel continuare a contribuire qui. Un saluto! --[[User:Postcrosser|Postcrosser]] ([[User talk:Postcrosser|talk]]) 23:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:::::Cara @[[User:Postcrosser| Postcrosser]], grazie. Ti confesso una cosa: in una prima stesura del messaggio qui sopra, ti avevo indicata tra le utenze che volevo ringraziare e salutare. Poi ho tolto il nome perché ho pensato che mi avresti considerato pazzo: a parte una volta, in cui mi hai dato un’indicazione per la questione degli interlink di Sofistica (se non sbaglio), non abbiamo mai avuto occasione di collaborare. Ma io “da lontano” ho apprezzato il tuo stile (senza contare che sei genovese come me) e quindi questo tuo messaggio mi fa piacere – grazie. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:38, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::::Ti ringrazio @[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]] per la pagina utente! Mi hai consentito di ritrovare anche le pagine di discussione (non sapevo che fosse possibile) e quindi le tracce di alcune utenze che avevo dimenticato nei ringraziamenti: '''Dapifer''' e '''Bologai''', di cui ho molta stima, '''Gambo7''', '''Threecharlie''', '''Bultro''' e '''Lorenzo Longo''', che sono stati utili e gentili, '''Popop''', con cui ho potuto interagire in modo civile anche quando in disaccordo, e soprattutto la cara '''Geoide''', che mi aveva dato qualche consiglio tempo fa, e le cui vecchie conversazioni ho potuto leggere per iniziare a conoscere il modo wikipediano. Che peccato che si sia allontanata dal progetto – anche lei, temo, amareggiata. Quanto al confronto che fai tra me e Xinstalker, è ovviamente sbagliato e troppo generoso: lui ha contribuito alla vita e ai contenuti di it.wiki 100 volte più di me, nessun paragone è possibile. Ma il confronto è calzante in questo: l’UP con la quale è stato infinitato è il segnale di un problema. Mi aveva colpito e, assieme ad altri materiali letti nel tempo e alle mie esperienze personali, aveva contribuito a formare la mia cattiva opinione delle modalità di soluzione dei conflitti di it.wiki. Leggendo quell’UP una cosa è chiara come il sole: una decisone presa in quel modo non è tale da poter essere accettata come legittima da chi non ne condiva già il contenuto. Ma le procedure non servono (solo) a prendere meno decisioni sbagliate, servono anche a far accettare le decisioni (giuste o sbagliate che siano) a chi non le condivide nel merito. Le cose non possono funzionare così e da questo punto di vista, e solo da questo, il confronto tra me e Xinstalker, tra i miei due cartellini gialli e la sua UP, è convincente. Ma soprattutto, cara Camelia, grazie di cuore per il tuo lavoro su it.wiki, di cui ho capito bene l’importanza per molte/i. La tua stima mi onora. Un abbraccio, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
== Messaggio per te ==
Ciao Gitz6666, non ho pratica di questa wiki, ma ti voglio esprimere la mia vicinanza e il rammarico di aver ricevuto la segnalazione della discussione sull'arbitrato troppo tardi. Io non credo di contare gran che in it.wiki, ma il tuo lavoro sul Protestantesimo ha fatto nascere in me la speranza che si potesse collaborare, tu su quel versante, io su quello cattolico. Ti stimo per la caratura delle tue capacità e per aver sognato una realtà più concreta, umana, tollerante. Ti abbraccio e mi auguro che si facciano avanti anche altri: grazie di tutto. --[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]] ([[User talk:AmaliaMM|talk]]) 17:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]] Ti ringrazio per il messaggio affettuoso. Ho apprezzato le nostre discussioni e soprattutto la qualità eccellente del tuo lavoro: it.wiki è davvero fortunata ad averti. Mi rammarico che là non sarà più possibile cooperare, ma ogni tanto verrò a vedere come procede il vostro lavoro (silenziosamente - ca va sans dire). Se in futuro avrai bisogno della mia cooperazione wikipediana, mi trovi qui e sarò sempre disponibile per te! Un caro saluto, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:17, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
::Hai anche la stima di un atea, ho apprezzato molto i tuoi commenti sulle ultime voci sulle quali ha lavorato {{ping|LorManLor}} e che sono state poi dichiarate di qualità. La misura con le queli lo hai fatto, l'approfondimento e la citazione colta. A presto 🤗. --[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia]] ([[User talk:Camelia.boban|talk]]) 20:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
:::<small>In realtà @[[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]], @[[User:Camelia.boban|Camelia.boban]], @[[:it:Utente:LorManLor|LorManLor]], anch’io sono ateo come Camelia. Sono finito a occuparmi di Lutero e di luterani su it.wiki quasi per puro caso, perché mi interessa l’età moderna e la costruzione dello stato. Di nuovo grazie per tutto, un abbraccio e buon lavoro su it.wiki!</small> [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:::::Ciao Gitz, sono molto molto dispiaciuta per quello che è successo, sia dal punto di vista umano che per la perdita per it.wiki della collaborazione di un utente così prezioso come te, ritengo sia uno spreco terribile che doveva essere evitato in tutti i modi. Grazie per la tua competenza, gentilezza, e anche sì, testardaggine nel sostenere il tuo punto di vista, che ritengo legittimo e motivato. Spero possiamo incrociarci ancora, auguri per tutto, un fortissimo abbraccio.[[User:LorManLor|LorManLor]] ([[User talk:LorManLor|talk]]) 12:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::::Grazie @[[User:LorManLor|LorManLor]] per il messaggio gentile e per le tre belle voci di cui ho potuto discutere con te. Complimenti per il bel lavoro e per i riconoscimenti meritatissimi! Un abbraccio, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Mi unisco anche io, dato che ora è toccato a me un blocco che trovo eccessivo.--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 11:23, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
:Tre mesi di blocco per aver fatto gli auguri di buona Pasqua? Mi spiace, @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], non ti amareggiare e lasciali perdere. --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:05, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
::Ti ringrazio. Un saluto anche ad [[User:AmaliaMM|AmaliaMM]], qui sopra di me, sperando porti avanti il suo lavoro che avevo già notato in molte occasioni.--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 12:08, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
:::Caro @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], toglimi una curiosità. Che cosa avevi scritto di così intollerabile nella pagina "Controversie legate a Wikipedia" poco prima di essere bloccato per 3 mesi per aver fatto gli auguri di Pasqua? Mi riferisco alla "Modifica decisamente fuori luogo", che è stata addirittura oscurata. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:21, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
== Mi spiace... ==
... di essermi accorto di quanto stava accadendo quando ormai la frittata era fatta. Forse (e sottolineo <u>forse</u>!) avrei potuto provare a darti qualche umile consiglio su come porti in certi frangenti, ossia astenersi dal rimbeccare a caldo, contare fino a mille e magari cambiare pagina e passare a occuparsi d'altro. In parte scherzo, e in parte no. Normale che ci siano vedute diverse tra gli utenti di una wiki, come pure tra wiki diverse. Se in tante wiki l'arbitrato è già una realtà, questo non significa che debba essere presente anche su it.wiki. Forse, banalmente, i tempi non sono maturi, inutile incaponirsi per accelerarli, ammesso pure che un giorno ci arriveremo, inutile un muro contro muro che ha spesso conseguenze spiacevoli, molto spiacevoli. Ci sono cose che io non condivido, ma <u>'''SE'''</u> l'obiettivo primario è collaborare al Progetto, tutto il resto deve passare in secondo piano, accettiamo serenamente anche le regole che meno ci piacciono e ''tiremm innanz''. Pensa che giusto ieri sera t'avevo mandato un ping per Caravaggio, sperando così di risolvere un aspetto che avevi segnalato, e quando Tommasucci mi ha fatto notare quello che era successo sono rimasto senza parole. Ti esprimo il mio sincero apprezzamento per come ti ho visto operare nella rubrica e ti saluto cordialmente. --[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] ([[User talk:Er Cicero|talk]]) 09:18, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
P.S.: peccato, davvero peccato per come è andata, ma lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile.
: Caro {{Reply to|Er Cicero}}, grazie per il messaggio. Non dubito che tu abbia ragione: in molte occasioni avrei potuto evitare di replicare. Si è trattato di botta e risposta in cui a replicare eravamo in due, e credo che i miei toni fossero meno aggressivi e inappropriati di quelli del mio interlocutore, ma è certo che <u>'''SE'''</u> avessi avuto una più forte spinta a rimanere su it.wiki, mi sarei dovuto comportare diversamente. E anche sull'arbitrato è probabile che tu abbia ragione. Più che proporre una soluzione determinata (l'arbitrato), forse non utile né attuabile, io intendevo richiamare l'attenzione su un problema secondo me reale; ma chissà che certi comportamenti prevaricatori, contrari alle linee guida, non possano essere affrontati senza bisogno di nuove regole, con la collaborazione di tutti, prima di "escalare" in conflitti distruttivi, che fanno male a tutti. Unica cosa, non capisco a che cosa ti riferisci con ''lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile''; se ti riferisci alla mia risposta a Gianfranco, forse è stata imperdonabile ma - come spiegavo qui sopra a Pequod - ti assicuro che non è stata uno sbrocco. A parte questo, sono felice di potermi congratulare con te per l'ottimo lavoro che ti ho visto fare in questi mesi nelle procedure di qualità. Non è un lavoro facile e si regge in gran parte sulle tue spalle. Complimenti! --[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::Beh, secondo me "non mi interessa collaborare con dei prepotenti (o meglio, sotto il dominio dei prepotenti,...)" te lo potevi risparmiare, così come la chiosa ironica "Buon divertimento nel piccolo mondo virtuale che vi siete inventati, spero che siate contenti del vostro lavoro". E' stato un modo per chiedere tu stesso di chiudere la tua esperienza su it.wiki (almeno a me così pare). E non posso che rammaricarmene. Buon tutto. --[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] ([[User talk:Er Cicero|talk]]) 10:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:::In effetti ammetto che avrei voluto correggere quel messaggio in questo modo: "piccolo/grande mondo virtuale" (perché è una piccola comunità, è vero, ma si affaccia su un grande mondo ed è impegnata in un lavoro grande) e "vi auguro di essere soddisfatti del vostro lavoro" (anziché "spero che siate contenti", che è sarcastico, mentre l'augurio può essere sincero). Avrei invece lasciato la parte sui "prepotenti" perché, al di là delle buone intenzioni dei singoli, la credo vera. Ho provato a correggere il testo in questo modo, ma era già troppo tardi - per quel che vale, lo faccio ora. Grazie di nuovo e saluti, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
::::scusami, avevo dimenticato di pingarti @[[User:Er Cicero|Er Cicero]] [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 11:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Hospes tantum nequeo Franca decisa reprehendere ac nolo, sed tu, ὦ [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D473 νεῖκος ἄριστε] Gitz, ignosces mihi. --[[User:Frognall|Frognall]] ([[User talk:Frognall|talk]]) 21:00, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Frognall|Frognall]], [[:it:Aiace_Oileo|Touché]]. Ti risponderei, per continuare il gioco, [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0185%3Acard%3D872 κράτος δ᾽ ὅτῳ κράτος μέλει παραβατὸν οὐδαμᾷ πέλει: σὲ δ᾽ αὐτόγνωτος ὤλεσ᾽ ὀργά]. Guarda però che io sono persona mitissima, solo con poca attitudine a farmi maltrattare per nessuna ragione. Non sono un attaccabrighe, ma la massima a cui cerco di attenermi sempre è: se un lavoro non dà gioia, tientene lontano. Per il resto, come ho detto a Pequod, "collige quae [[:it:Bozza:Storia_dei_concetti|superaverunt fragmenta]] ne pereant". Lui però nemmeno su questo si è mostrato molto sollecito… cioè non si è voluto far rifilare la patacca! Vedi tu. Un caro saluto, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
::Traduco, in caso ci fosse un amico che ci legge: "il potere, per chi ha caro il potere, non ammette trasgressione. La tua ira, che decide da sé, ti ha perduta" (Antigone) e "Raccogli le briciole avanzate, perché niente si perda" (da Giovanni 6:12). [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:34, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
== Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield ==
Good day Gitz6666. Thank you very much for your attention to the article [[Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield]]. Few editors seem to add citations and your contribution is therefore especially precious and welcome. Unluckily, you seem to have the wrong lady. The description of a beautiful lady on page 141, which you cite, is that of Miss Hamilton. Lady Chesterfield is described on p 167. Besides, you cite the book as <nowiki>{{Cite book|last=Hamilton|first=Anthony|url=https://archive.org/details/memoirscountgram00hamimiss/page/n175/mode/2up|title=Memoirs of Count Grammont|publisher=E.L. Carey & A. Hart|year=1836|location=Philadelphia|pages=141|author-link=Antoine Hamilton}}</nowiki> I do not find a publication date on this edition and the title page indicates that the publisher is David McKay and not E.L. Carey & A. Hart as you say. Where did you get the information from? I edited the article and corrected the page citing from the Gebbie edition of 1888, which is better documented but identical for the rest. How did you get to [[Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield]]? Do you have a special interest in her or in [[Antoine Hamilton]] and his book? Best regards, [[User:Johannes Schade|Johannes Schade]] ([[User talk:Johannes Schade|talk]]) 15:59, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Hugo Krabbe]] has been accepted ==
<div style="border:solid 1px #57DB1E; background:#E6FFE6; padding:1em; padding-top:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; width:20em; color:black; margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 1.5em; width: 90%;">[[File:AFC-Logo.svg|50px|left]] '''[[Hugo Krabbe]], which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.'''<br />
Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions. <br />
The article has been assessed as '''Start-Class''', which is recorded on its [[Talk:Hugo Krabbe|talk page]]. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they [[Wikipedia:Article development|develop]] over time. You may like to take a look at the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Grading scheme|grading scheme]] to see how you can improve the article.
<div class="autoconfirmed-show">Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now [[Wikipedia:Your first article|create articles yourself]] without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]] if you prefer.</div>
If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the '''<span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit§ion=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Hugo_Krabbe help desk]</span>'''.<span class="unconfirmed-show"> Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to [[Wikipedia:Your first article|create articles yourself]] without posting a request to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]].</span>
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Thanks again, and happy editing!
[[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 14:02, 6 March 2022 (UTC)</div><!--Template:Afc talk-->
== Re:peggio della politica ==
Thanks! I replied to you by e-mail. --[[User:Conviene|Conviene]] ([[User talk:Conviene|talk]]) 19:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
==Commenting about other users on article talk pages==
Please keep in mind that article talk pages exist only for discussing improvement of the corresponding page. Your comments on my talk page were fine, even if poorly substantiated, but [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1079792010&oldid=1079791162 that] was not. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:34, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for removing your comment. But you constantly accuse me of bias. Yes, I certainly have personal views about it (everyone has). But I am trying to follow all rules including NPOV in main space. For example, would not you agree with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1079845024 this]? [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 23:06, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
::Honestly I thought you might be biased, but even if it were so, that wouldn't be a problem. As you rightly say, we all have views. It's impossible to establish who, if any, is "truly neutral" here. The only way of achieving a certain acceptable degree of neutrality is through discussion and consensus. I objected to having all those poorly sourced (even posts on telegram!) "attacks on civilians" that do not qualify as war crimes, and I'll try to make the case for splitting the article; but I haven't started to remove them from the article, because it's only my view, maybe people from Ukraine or elsewhere are sending those contents to us, we should be respectful and take time and care. With regard to the criterion for the lead you ask me about: to me it looks overly complicated. The lead should change and will change but as a starting point, it seems to me that it should briefly announce the various areas touched upon in the article, as a sort of summary for the reader. Honestly, if one reads the lead now, it is clear that the Russian army are behaving horribly, and I don’t think we are underplaying their responsibility. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
:::I did watch YouTube records mentioned [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Footage_of_captured_Russian_soldiers here] with great interest. Obviously, these Russian pilots (those who bombed children in Ukrainian cities) and others were under a psychological pressure, and I am not sure they apologized sincerely to Ukrainian people. So, it did look to me as a doubtful excercize, unless that was needed to improve the spirits of Ukrainian people and reveal a few interesting details about these pilots being misinformed by their commanders. Still, I can not compare that "torture" (certainly, these pilots felt ashamed, exactly as they should be) with the death, incapacitation and injury of peaceful people they have bombed. These pilots should be tried for their war crimes if you ask me. But in terms of WP coverage, I think my comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1079845024] explains it. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 00:57, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
::::I agree with you: the videos of the Russian PoW calling their mum, crying and expressing regret, etc., do not amount to torture. "Abuse" is a reasonable word, I guess, or maybe "exploiting for propaganda purposes". However, deliberatly shooting 3 PoWs in the legs and let them bleeding is torture, if that's what's happened. By the way, I've just read this in the report by Bogner: "Since the invasion by the Russian Federation, people believed to be thieves, bootleggers, pro-Russian supporters or curfew violators have been beaten in territory controlled by the Government of Ukraine. We have received credible allegations of more than 40 such cases of ill-treatment by police officers, volunteer defence force members and others". I think you'll agree: this doesn't qualify as war crime, or at least RS doesn't say so explicitly, so let's leave it out. With regard to the lead, I personally have nothing against you or anyone else adding text to it - now is too poor - provided that we keep it fairly balanced and not emphatic or in any way apologetic. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:17, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
:::::Only 40 cases of ill-treatment by police officers? I am sure there are many more such cases in the USA. As about Russia, the entire police force works for the [[Mafia state]]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:33, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
::::::I am afraid you're right! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
== Do not remove other people's comments ==
as you did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=prev&oldid=1081051484] here. That's a pretty quick way to earn yourself a block.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:04, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:I'm afraid you'll get blocked if you keep on disrupting the talk in this way. It's not a place for venting anger. We discuss on the contents there, and you're making a mess out of it. Plus that OP is a [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attack]] against a fellow editor, User:Dunutubble (''For fuck's sake, this also restores the idiotic notion that ... Gimme a break. There's absolutely no source for such a claim (probably because it's patently ridiculous). The given source certainly doesn't say anything so stupid. But it's also frankly offensive ... I am very tempted to report this fairly transparent violation...'''). It's unacceptable. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
::That is not a personal attack. The comment discusses the content not a person. I am not "venting anger". Now THAT is discussing a person not content, so THAT could qualify as a personal attack.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small>
::Regardless, it's not YOUR job to police the talk page and remove other people's comments. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_others'_comments WP:TALK]<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 01:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] With regard to the DS alert here below, note that it says "To opt out of receiving messages like this one, place {{tlx|Ds/aware}} on your user talk page and specify in the template the topic areas that you would like to opt out of alerts about". I have placed that template on my talk page, so you should avoid doing this. Don't you see that the way you behave is disruptive? I have other staff to do here and you are wasting my time, and other editors' time, for no reason. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 01:35, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
== Talk typo? ==
I think you may have meant {{tq|I will open a ''thread''...}} in your recent comment at [[Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#PossibleTypo]] but it currently says something quite different. --[[User talk:N8wilson|N8<sub>wilson</sub>]] 01:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
== Infobox ==
Ciao, perdonami, ma qui non abbiamo le categorie automatiche dei template sinottici?--[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]] ([[User talk:Potenza2021|talk]]) 17:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
:Ciao @[[User:Potenza2021|Potenza2021]], mi hai colto in castagna! Ti confesso che a leggere "categorie automatiche dei template sinottici" sono rimasto basito: per me è aramaico, non ho idea di che cosa tu stia parlando. Allora mi sono messo a studiare e posso dirti questo:
:1. Alla tua domanda non so rispondere.
:2. Questa è la linea guida del manuale di stile sulle infoboxes (template sinottici): [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes]], questa è la linea guida sulla categorizzazione: [[Wikipedia:Categorization]], questa è la pagina di aiuto sulle categorie: [[Help:Category]], questo è un "saggio" su quando non fare un infobox perché è inutile: [[Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes]] (su it.wiki non esistono i saggi; si tratta di opinioni e consigli non vincolanti, spesso confutati da altri saggi di segno contrario, come questo "inclusionista" sugli infoboxes, [[Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes can be useful]]),.
:3. Qui trovi una pagina di aiuto molto generale su come iniziare a collaborare con en.wiki: [[Help:Getting started]] e qui trovi una pagina di aiuto su come fare domande, richieste di informazioni e di aiuto, ecc.: [[Wikipedia:Questions]]. Come vedi, sulla destra c'è "Personal help on your talk page": formuli una domanda e un editor ti risponde sulla tua pagina discussioni utente (user talk page).
:P.S. Su en.wiki puoi cancellare tutto quello che vuoi dalla tua talk page, quindi se la tua domanda è sbagliata o la risposta non è utile, la puoi cancellare tranquillamente.
:Ciao, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
== Warcrimes page ==
thanks for taking the time to prepare the post on the Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine page. Lets see if we get any other Editors participating. Like you I am starting to think their are better things to do in my life than endless arguements over these issues. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 21:48, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] thank you for the good work. I think I'm going to take a break from that article, as I'm disappointed by the lack of support from other editors. I hate seeing war crimes discourse being hijacked for petty political goals: if there are more war crimes against my party, that means that I'm (on the side of) the True Victim, which in turn means that... we're going to win the war? NATO will enter the war and war crimes will cease? Russian people will be ashamed and they'll ask their soldiers to behave nicely? I don't even understand the point of playing this ridiculous game of POV pushing on an article as that one, it shows disrespect for the real victims and it's utterly useless. Plus, I resent the way Anonimu was provoked and excluded: they brought it upon themselves, but it wasn't fair and it caused damage to our work. Or maybe what's happening is not [[WP:BATTLEGROUND]] and [[WP:DISRUPTIVE]] and what I perceive as fair balance is out of touch with the prevailing views in the community. Either way it' better if I take a break and move to other projects. But thank you again for the nice work, I enjoyed collaborating with you. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:47, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
== Outstanding article ==
Hi, I'm GizzyCatBella. I came across an article [[Hugo Krabbe]] you created, and I've read it with great interest. I believe this is an excellent article, well sourced, flawlessly formatted, immaculate. Thank you very much. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 10:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you so much @[[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] for your kind message! This truly means a lot to me. I have spent a good deal of time on that article, I hadn't received any feedback so far and I was a bit disappointed about that. I had also asked a peer review but none has answered my call and the review is still deserted: [[Wikipedia:Peer_review#Hugo_Krabbe]] and [[Wikipedia:Peer_review/Hugo_Krabbe/archive1]]. You cheered my up! Thank you. Any help in improving the article (starting from the quality of the English, which is not my mother tongue) is more than welcome. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
== May 2022 ==
[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Hello! Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your contributions. At least one of your edits, while it may have been in good faith, was difficult to distinguish from [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. To help other editors understand the reason for the changes, you can use an [[Help:Edit summary|edit summary]] for your contributions. You can also take a look at the [[Wikipedia:Introduction|welcome page]] to learn more about contributing to [[Wikipedia|this encyclopedia]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-subtle1 --> [[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 13:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:What a coincidence, I have just written to you. Which edit are you referring to? I see that you undid my edit here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088855205&oldid=1088854875&diffmode=source] with the surprising object "misleading edit summary". My summary was exceptionally detailed! I had literally described each and every changed I had made: "Added sources (Guardian + Le Monde), reference to "torture" (which cannot be disputed), reference to the results of the investigations by Le Monde and others + fixed mistake in the spelling of the village where this happened". If you don't agree, you should at least explain why, and that edit summary of yours unfortunately doesn't help. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 13:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
::So basically @[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] if you don't explain why my (detailed and thorough) edit summary is "misleading", one is left with no reason at all for your revert. You should either write: "misleading edit summary: POWs had not been tortured" (and I could open a discussion on this), or "misleading edit summary: Le Monde has been misrepresented" (and I could open a discussion), or "it happened in Malaya Rohan, not in Mala Rohan" (again, we could discuss about that). But if you just say "misleading summary", what should we be discussing about? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 14:05, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:::You made subsection name changes and removed content without indicating such in the summary. [[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] ([[User talk:Shadybabs|talk]]) 14:08, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
::::So, first of all I see that you are now admitting that your summary "misleading edit summary" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088855205&oldid=1088854875&diffmode=source] is indeed misleading. The edit you reverted had a good summary. So I suggest you self-revert that edit of yours. You can undo my edit but you should explain your reason.
::::Secondly, as you can see, I indicated everything in the summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088831172&oldid=1088797956&diffmode=source]: "There's no reason for believing that both sources are about same issue: one refers to Borodyanka, the other took place in Kharkiv. The intercepted conversation with sadistic mum fails WP:V, heading must be compliant with MOS:HEAD. See talk and don't restore until consensus is reached". So what are you talking about? "heading must be compliant with MOS:HEAD" obviously refers to a change in the heading, don't you think so? Plus I had already explained everything on the talk page (that you desert) so this is really ludicrous. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 14:19, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Shadybabs|Shadybabs]] I was trying to make sense of what happened and I noticed that in fact [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088854875&oldid=1088852269&diffmode=source this edit of mine] also changed the heading plus removed some contents. After all, your "misleading edit summary" was not... entirely misleading! I did it inadvertently (probably I thought I had already published those early changes). I apologise for that.
:::::However, please note the following:
:::::- A discussion has been going on on the talk page since the 18 May. I pinged you but you didn't join.
:::::- In that discussion 4 editors apart from myself expressed their views, and at 10:00, 20 May 2022 I made a proposition which ''perhaps'' might have enjoyed a consensus, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088828327&oldid=1088810407&diffmode=source here]; I then modified the article accordingly and explained everything in the summary: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1088831172&oldid=1088797956&diffmode=source].
:::::- Obviously if you don't agree you can revert, but then please explain your reasons by joining the discussion. These reverts are not helpful if the goal is to reach a consensus: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=next&oldid=1088848134&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=next&oldid=1088848291&diffmode=source].
:::::I think we can't reach a consensus through editing here and we should avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates over contents ([[WP:REVTALK]]); we should rather use the talk page.
:::::Anyway, sorry again about my sloppy summary. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:51, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
== I reverted you ==
I might have let it stand if you had allowed me to disagree with M. Bitton, as he did quickly move to personal attacks, but as it is, you were wrong to not allow me to answer him. I mean, who he?
Meanwhile, I did at one point split your comment and tried to fix that; possibly we overwrote each other, and I see you may have done something about this in the same edit. For the record, I have no objection to you moving the second part of your comment above my reply if this is still an issue after my revert. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 17:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
:thanks for the message, my comment and your replies to me as they are now are OK. With regard to the template:hidden, I had the impression that that discussion between you and M.Bitton was off topic and made it more difficult for others to join the discussion. If you want that discussion back to full visibility, I've nothing to object but let me suggest you to disengage: clearly there's a history of hostility between you two, and in these cases leaving a couple of days to "cool down" is always advisable. By the way, as a third uninvolved party let me tell you that you were the first one to escalate ("I've explained to you a few times now that other languages exist and see no reason to punish my carpals to go through this with you again"). Maybe you've been a bit too harsh without intending it? In that case, apologies always clean the air. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard]]==
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{{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read [[WP:Your first article|the guide to writing your first article]].</p><p>You may want to consider using the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}}
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard]] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[WP:CSD#A3|section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|help]] or [[Wikipedia:Reference desk|reference]] desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see [[Wikipedia:Stub#Essential information about stubs|Wikipedia:Stub]] for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on [[Wikipedia:Notability|notable]] subjects and should provide references to [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verify]] their content.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:Edwin Montefiore Borchard|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the {{Querylink|Special:Log|qs=type=delete&page=Edwin+Montefiore+Borchard|deleting administrator}}, or if you have already done so, you can place a request [[WP:RFUD|here]]. <!-- Template:Db-nocontent-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 00:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
:Hello @[[User:Mhawk10|Mhawk10]], I've made a mistake. I intended to create a redirect, so I should have written <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[Edwin Borchard]]</nowiki>; instead I wrote <nowiki>{{Redirect|Edwin Borchard}}</nowiki>. I've made the same mistake with [[Edwin M. Borchard]] and now I've corrected it. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 00:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
::Hi! I've turned [[Edwin Montefiore Borchard]] into a redirect per your comment above and I've removed the speedy deletion tag. — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 00:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
== Lyudmyla Denisova ==
In the end, it was the Ukrainian parliamentarians themselves, together with 140 public figures, activists and professionals, who also accused her of making unverifiable statements about alleged sexual crimes by Russian troops.[https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-05-31/card/ukraine-s-parliament-dismisses-human-rights-chief-1kQWT7i0GHXyeqh6spRe][https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmila-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920]--[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 19:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
:Grazie, @[[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]], ero a conoscenza di questo. Forse si potrebbe mettere l'informazione nel punto appropriato della voce War Crimes. La discussione a RS/N ha preso una piega surreale quando la notizia si è diffusa e alcuni utenti hanno continuato a dire che l'informazione era comunque sufficientemente verificabile! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
::A giudicare da quello che sta succedendo alla voce sui crimini di guerra e sulla sua voce personale, sembra ci sia l'intenzione di evitare di parlare dell'accaduto. [[User:Mhorg|Mhorg]] ([[User talk:Mhorg|talk]]) 09:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
== 3RR warning ==
[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|left|alt=Stop icon]] Your recent editing history at [[:War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]] shows that you are currently engaged in an [[Wikipedia:Edit warring|edit war]]; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|talk page]] to work toward making a version that represents [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle|the bold, revert, discuss cycle]] for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant [[Wikipedia:Noticeboards|noticeboard]] or seek [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]]. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary [[Wikipedia:Protection policy|page protection]].
'''Being involved in an edit war can result in you being [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]'''—especially if you violate the [[Wikipedia:Edit warring#The three-revert rule|three-revert rule]], which states that an editor must not perform more than three [[Help:Reverting|reverts]] on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—'''even if you do not violate the three-revert rule'''—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.<!-- Template:uw-3rr -->
:I made three and no more than three reverts in a 24-hour period: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094473817&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094477121&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1094498261&diffmode=source]. Therefore, as far as I understand, I complied with [[WP:3RR]]. The editor who applied the template:3RR and who forgot to sign it is {{Ping|Volunteer Marek}}. They themselves performed three reverts in that page: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094135458&oldid=1094125345&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094476007&oldid=1094473817&diffmode=source] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1094477430&oldid=1094477121&diffmode=source]. As an involved editor who is engaged in the very same behaviour they are complaining about, they are not in the position to use the 3RR template. I think they just got nervous because they have [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Volunteer_Marek's_incivility_and_POV-pushing|a pending case]] at WP:ANI, which I initiated. The fact that they forgot to sign also suggests the template was applied out of spite. They should be reminded that one needs to {{tq|Be careful about issuing templated messages to editors you're currently involved in a dispute with}}, as per [[WP:CIV]]. I strongly recommend Volunteer Marek to careful read (possibly a couple of times and taking notes) the whole policy one finds at WP:CIV. They would benefit enormously from doing so. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 06:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::Notification is required prior to a report. You made 3 reverts within FOUR hours. ANI at discussion is pretty much telling you that you should be mindful of [[WP:BOOMERANG]] and most commentators (except a couple usual suspects from the War Crimes article) are telling you that you are indeed in the wrong as to the substance. You should pay heed.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 15:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
:::I don't agree with your reading of the discussion at ANI. I think your incivility and relentless pov-pushing are being exposed there. Anyway, re edit warring I think you should just stick to the WP:BRD cycle and don't revert when you're being reverted. Just seek consensus on the talk page and if you don’t get it (as on this occasion), just let things be: we are not playing a war game here, let alone fighting a war on account of the Ukrainian people. We're just writing an encyclopedia, and your editing style is blocking us. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::::You made three reverts in less than four hours so please don't try to lecture me about BRD. Here are some comments from ANI that you might find relevant:
::::''"I will not be suprised if this report ends up in a WP:BOOMERANG (against Gitz6666)"''
::::''"I'm definitely concerned by Gitz's clear attempt to slide in content with weasel word caveats while sliding out reliably sourced content in Wikivoice"''
::::''"while they (Volunteer Marek) might be forthright in their opinions, their contributions could not be considered exceptional wrt civility or POV. I have found them to be generally acceptive of broader consensus."''
::::''"Yeh, Gitz666 has a POV here."''
::::''"I am of the general opinion that that Gitz6666 is POV-pushing problematically here "''
::::''"Gitz purpose (in this area) is to edit in and promote Russian propaganda and excuse/deny war crimes, that is clear from their editing. Just broadly topic ban them from the Russian invasion of Ukraine"''
::::These are all from six DIFFERENT editors. Offering this piece of advice in 100% good faith: read the room.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 19:17, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::the thing is, @[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]], I ''know'' that I'm not a Russian pov-pusher. If someone says otherwise, that's relatively indifferent to me. It means that either they're pov-pushers themselves or that they're not well-informed. Moreover, I ''know'' that you're a pov-pusher: the exclusive or prevailing reason why you're here is pursuing a political agenda. If you were honest you'd admit it yourself: you're not at all interested in writing a collective encyclopaedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality. What I really don't know, however, is which standard of (in)civility this community deems intolerable. The way you behave is clearly exceptional in that regard, but I don't know if it's something that the community is ready to accept. We'll see it. I've done my best to expose the way you behave and will continue to ask the community to uphold its policies. If in the process I get topic banned or blocked, be it: nobody really gets hurt. I'll work on other projects and I'll be content with myself. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::Well, I tried to give you good faithed advice. It's really all I can do and rest is up to you.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 00:00, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::::[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]], Gitz is doing the difficult thing here, which is trying to keep an article neutral in a situation like this where not only almost everyone in Wikipedia, but also a lot of press, are not neutral. And not without a reason, after all there is a war going on. Your contributions, Marek, are great many times, but I also believe that they often fail NPOV. And this is not a critique, it is hard to keep a NPOV on a subject like War Crimes. <span id="AdrianHObradors:1656327007877:User_talkFTTCLNGitz6666" class="FTTCmt">[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]] ([[User talk:AdrianHObradors|talk]]) 10:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)</span>
::::::::You need to read [[WP:3rr]] carefully. It’s not an allowance. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 18:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
==RfC==
Since you asked for comments... You should not be doing [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gitz6666/sandbox2&oldid=1096504148 this] because you misrepresent comments by other contributors. My main argument was never false balance. I am simply telling that an event should be significant enough for inclusion ''as follows from its coverage in RS'', no matter what "side" of the conflict. For example, if an event was covered only in few RS when it had happen, but not covered later, it probably has no "lasting significance". If it was just mentioned somewhere over the comma (",...,"), then again, it is not notable enough to be included to an already very long page. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 12:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
:Hello @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]], it was [[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] the one who argued that their reason for remopving the section was WP:UNDUE/false balance: see their opening post on the talk page at 23:00, 18 June 2022, {{tq|But we absolutely must have an article and text in this article about THAT ONE maybe-Ukrainian missile!!!!!! Because "balance" or some shit. I'm sorry but that kind of approach is just sick. And it's the quintessence of violating WP:UNDUE to push a POV ("both sides do it!!!!")}}. So I basically tried to summarise also their view, and while in the process I had to drop a few exclamation marks, I dont' think I misrepresented anything substantial. However, if you don't want to be associated with that argument, I think we could drop any reference to the 6 or 7 editors who joined the discussion instead of removing arguments which were actually made. Don't you agree? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] I've just changed the text as described here above. Please chek it and tell me if it's now OK for you or if you think that there's anything that needs to be added or removed from the summary of your arguments. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 12:38, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
:::If you want to post an RfC, please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Statement_should_be_neutral_and_brief this] and check how other people do it. I think you should not mention any specific contributors at all (just make a link to relevant discussion/section on article talk page). If people want to say something, they will comment at the RfC. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 15:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
[[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested  at [[Talk:Greased piglet#rfc_B4662CC|'''Talk:Greased piglet'''  on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) | Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. | Sent at 14:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
==AE report==
I made a report about your editing here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Gitz6666 here]. You are welcome to reply. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 04:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:This is ridiculous - what an appalling waste of time! Anyway I'll be travelling today and tomorrow, and I'll do my best to reply as soon as I can. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::::Re to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=prev&oldid=1099022443 this]. Sure thing, everyone has an opinion, admitted, and it is difficult to remain neutral. But one should just follow all our editing policies. That is what I am trying to do. In this case, you are saying that one should be "mitigating the responsibilities of the Russian army or documenting allegations of war crimes by the Ukrainian side". I do agree this is something you are trying to do, but I think you crossed the line in a number of cases, for example, by systematically removing well sourced content that contradicts your personal bias - as illustrated by diffs in my request. This is contrary to the policies, as me and other contributors tried to explain to you in a number of discussions we had. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::Please @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]], may I suggest you answer my question at AE and share a few diffs showing that you comply with our policies and guidelines such as NPOV, DISRUPTIVE and TENDENTIOUS? otherwise the boomerang effect might be resounding. You see, you're right in saying that everyone has an opinion, but you're also neglecting a fundamental difference between you and me. I don't edit War crimes in Ukraine for advancing my personal political views, I work on that article because I truly believe that building an encyclopedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality is an excellent effort in a time of war: it promotes knowledge, understanding, sympathy for the victims and accountabity for the perpetrators. Plus, I literally don't give a fuck about the Ukrainian/Russian divide; I see only victims and perpetrators. You, on the contrary, you are there just because you oppose the Russian regime, I guess. Therefore you're a liability, you make it more difficult to do our job (which is basically WP:E, WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:RS) and you waste lots of time. I respect your political views and your motivations, but I also believe that if dispute resolution works well you'll get at least topic banned. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::Oh no, based on the diffs provided, I think you are clearly editing on the side of the Russian state if there is such "side". I can not speculate about your motivation. And you are wrong about my motivation. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:52, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:But to answer your AE question, no, I hardly made any really substantial contributions in this subject area. I have time only to fix a few minor things, occasionally participate in discussions, or file an AE request if I believe that someone does something really detrimental to the project. Indeed, I believe that even your [[WP:BLUDGEON]] of talk pages on this subject could warrant such request... [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 14:51, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Thank you for answering @[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]]. I understand that your answer is basically "No": you cannot provide any diff showing that you, at least on one occasion, have removed a fishy, ill-sourced allegation against the Russian army or have included a sound, well-sourced allegation against the Ukrainian army. Nor have you made any comment on the talk page that couldn't be possibly construed as "relentless anti-Russian POV pushing".
::The first reason for this is - you say - that you {{TQ|hardly made any really substantial contributions in this subject area.}} But you are way too modest! You have made no less than 95 edits to [[War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]] [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=]. See? a nice 4.35% of the total edits made to the page. Truth be told, you are only at number 41 in terms of authorship. You've added only 766 characters to the article, a disappointing 0.3% of the text (I've added 74,240 characters, 29.2% of the text). And why is that, MVBW? The reason for this mismatch is that almost all your edits are reverts: you're basically disrupting other editors' work, that's what you do. You don't actually engage in building an encyclopedia, you have other stuff to do here.
::Please, have another look at this [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=], and tell me if you think that a community of editors should tolerate this kind of behaviour; please compare with this [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=Gitz6666&page=War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&max=500&server=enwiki].
::Secondly, you say that you {{TQ|occasionally participate in discussions}}. Again, you are way too modest: 219 edits to the talk page, 10.66% of the total edits made to the page [https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=My+very+best+wishes&page=Talk%3AWar_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&server=enwiki&max=]. Authorship statistics are not available for talk pages, but I'm be ready to bet that you are the second contributor to our discussions. We've spent hours discussing together and believe me: not on one occasion have you ever made anything but pushing an anti-Russian POV. Am I wrong? No, I'm not, you know I'm not. Everybody already knows in advance on what side your arguments are going to fall, which basically makes them useless. And the same applies to Volunteer Marek.
::Finally, you summarise your third contribution to War crimes in Ukraine as follows: {{TQ|occasionally [I] file an AE request if I believe that someone does something really detrimental to the project}}. You don't specify what project are you referring to - do you mean the Ukrainian military effort? It is true that you filed an AE request against Mhorg, [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive307#Mhorg|here]], and most of it was about BLP and how to account for Denisova's dismissal; and yet in the article on Denisova you inserted factually wrong information, as I demonstrated to you in [[Talk:Lyudmyla Denisova#"An open letter from 140 activists ... opposed her removal."|this thread]] to which you never replied. Now you file another request against me - well done. I'm wondering if they'll understand that you are a blatant case of [[Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing|civil POV-pushing]].
::There's only one thing that I really don't know. What the hell did you mean when you said that {{tq|you are wrong about my motivation}}? Isn't the point of all your being here just opposing the Russian government? What did I miss? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:40, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
:::Well, even this brief discussion shows what is the problem with your editing. You grossly misinterpreted my comment. I only said I am a low-key contributor in this area, nothing else. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:47, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::"Low-key contributor in this area" is not accurate. You are as much a contributor to War crimes in Ukraine as a chicken bone stuck in your throat is a contribution to the dinner. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::As about "have another look at this [...], please compare with this [...]", no, such comparison tells very little. One should look at individual edits. Yes, I frequently remove poorly sourced, misinterpreted and otherwise problematic content. This is all. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::I don't believe it's a good thing to have you here {{tq|frequently}} removing contents that you deem {{tq|poorly sourced, misinterpreted and otherwise problematic}}. But tell me, why are the contents you remove always and exclusively about war crimes allegedly committed by the Ukrainian army? Why have you NEVER encountered similarly poorly sourced, misinterpreted and problematic contents about a war crime allegedly committed by the Russian army? It's a genuine (as opposed to rhetoric) question: have you ever thought about it? do you have an answer [[ping|My very best wishes]]? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC); edited 23:39, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::::::::Why I NEVER removed content about war crimes by Russian army? No, of course I occasionally removed such content, for example, in the biggest removal I made on this page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1095028410]. Here I removed something that was presumably a false flag attack by ''Russian'' forces [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1093987907]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
== Indiscriminate attack(s) ==
The draft at [[User:Gitz6666/sandbox4]] for '''Indiscriminate attack(s)''' looks good and very likely to survive any notability challenges, IMHO, though I see it's still in draft stage. There might be a debate about how similar articles in Wikipedia are named - as singular or plural. Singular is more like a dictionary definition, and plural is more about "the thing in general" - that's my impression, at least for categories. But mainspace usage will count more than category style. This is an obviously important article. There are some fields of knowledge where en.Wikipedia is still missing many key articles. [[User:Boud|Boud]] ([[User talk:Boud|talk]]) 16:35, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for your message @[[User:Boud|Boud]]. Unfortunately I haven't worked on that draft for a while, but I'll do my best to finish it in the next few days. I'm sure the topic is notable enough and I'm happy to help filling a gap. Re singular/plural I haven't thought about it, I've now made a quick search on similar articles (e.g human shield, hostage) and singular seems prevailing but I don't have strong views on this - if you think plural is best, I'll follow your advice. I'll let you know when the article is published and I'd be grateful if you will edit it or add it to your watchlist. Best, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
::I don't have strong views on it either - so I suggest sticking to the singular when you have time to get back to it. [[User:Boud|Boud]] ([[User talk:Boud|talk]]) 22:07, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
:::Hello @[[User:Boud|Boud]], yesterday I published a first draft of the article [[Indiscriminate attack]], but I'm still working on a section on "history" and on the images. If you want to edit it or add it to your watchlist, that's great. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
== Indiscriminate attacks ==
I've just tweaked two of your recent edits re this; see the edit summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine%E2%80%93American_War&diff=next&oldid=1102768450 here], which mentions the other edit. What I've done here probably needs improvement in both articles edited. The [[Indiscriminate attack]] article might also need improvement, as suggested there. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 22:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
:Yes, @[[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]], you're right. I'm working on a section "History" in the article on Indiscriminate attack but it will probably be irrelevant to the articles on the Philippine–American War. They a contemporary terminology to refer to events that happened before the criminalisation of indiscriminate attacks and/or use a generic, non-legal sense of "indiscriminate attack". IN both cases a wikilink would not be useful. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
::Hi. Thanks for the response. This area is of some interest to me as it relates to the the U.S. military in the Philippines from 1898 to 1910ish, but it is not a focus area. Re the U.S., it seems to go back to Lieber, Lincoln, [https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lieber.asp General Order 100], and the [[Lieber code]]. c. 1863. Googling, I turned up some things which might or might not interest you. You've probably seen them, but I'll mantion a couple of them just in case: [https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.353.366&rep=rep1&type=pdf][https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul] (particularly Rules 11-14). Other items caught my eye, but I have not been able to quickly locate them again. Cheers. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 09:35, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
== 3RR report==
You are welcome to reply here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Gitz6666_reported_by_User:My_very_best_wishes_(Result:_)]. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 02:53, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=prev&oldid=1103184046] - I did it by mistake, but you are more than welcome to restore. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:27, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
[[File:Internet-group-chat.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]Your feedback is requested  at [[Talk:Likud#rfc_9580E4D|'''Talk:Likud'''  on a "Politics, government, and law" request for comment]]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of [[WP:FRS|Feedback Request Service]] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by [[WP:FRS|removing your name]].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by [[User:Yapperbot|Yapperbot]] :) | Is this wrong? Contact [[User talk:Naypta|my bot operator]]. | Sent at 07:40, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
==[[WP:NPA]]==
What you said here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=1103093401&oldid=1103057250],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&diff=1103151829&oldid=1103151710] was a blatant personal attack. For the record, I am a cultural Russophile, meaning I am a fan of Russian poetry, songs and many other aspects of Russian culture. It does not mean that all aspects of Russian [[culture]] are great, but debating and criticizing them is normal in Russian politics and literature. I only said something that appears in the poetry cited on my talk page or in books, including even novels by famous [[Ivan Bunin]]. It does not mean that I support the current political regime in Russia and the suffering it brings to many nations including Russia itself. Quite the opposite. That's why I do not support [[Russian world]]. This is not really about culture, but a harmful propaganda that was used to justify the military aggression against other countries, and it defames all Russians around the world. So, you probably can count this as a political bias. But this is all. Please strike through or remove your comments. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:20, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] you don't understand the meaning of the word "culture" in "cultural racism". It has nothing to do with poetry, literature, etc. And the "slavish obedience and cruelty" of the Russian culture/character as an explanation for the invasion of Ukraine is paradigmatic of cultural racism. I won't strike through my comment but I suggest you remove your racist rant. Alternatively you can go around complaining about how deeply insulting it is that someone perceives Russian "slavish obedience and cruelty" as racist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 18:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
::Well, that was a summary of something well known from Russian literature. Consider [[Farewell, Unwashed Russia]], i.e. "...Land of slaves, land of masters...". Are you saying that [[Mikhail Lermontov]] was an anti-Russian cultural racist? Nonsense. Personally, I do not think that any culture is better than another, but they are very much different. However, I will note that you are refusing to apologize or remove your offensive and unjustified accusations. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Did Lermontov explain the war in Ukraine in terms of the "slavish obedience and cruelty" of the Russian people? In that case I'd say that, based on contemporary standards, he would qualify as a racist - yes. Attributing moral vices and virtues to peoples is always a tricky business: the cruel and slavish Russian, the cunning Jew, the lazy Italian, etc., are offensive, and are also extremely stupid. I won't pursue the matter further, but I strongly advise you to remove hateful contents from your talk page. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::No, that was not about any ethnic stereotypes ''at all''. What I cited was this:
<poem>
Ныне ль, даве ль?- все одно и то же:
Волчьи морды, машкеры и рожи,
Спертый дух и одичалый мозг,
Сыск и кухня Тайных Канцелярий,
Пьяный гик осатанелых тварей,
Жгучий свист шпицрутенов и розг,
Дикий сон военных поселений,
Фаланстер, парадов и равнений,
Павлов, Аракчеевых, Петров,
Жутких Гатчин, страшных Петербургов,
Замыслы неистовых хирургов
И размах заплечных мастеров.
Сотни лет тупых и зверских пыток,
И еще не весь развернут свиток,
И не замкнут список палачей...
([[Maximilian Voloshin|Voloshin]], 1920, Crimea)
</poem>
::::You would probably count even [[Lev Tolstoy]] as a "racist" for his criticism of Russian war in Caucasus [https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/arts/29iht-tolstoy.html] ("In “[[Hadji Murad]],” Tolstoy writes of a vicious circle of cruelty..." and so on). [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 10:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Saying that a war is cruel is not racist, saying that Putin is cruel is not racist, saying that a whole people is cruel may be racist; in this case, it was racist. Russia did not invade Ukraine because the Russians are cruel slaves. But I'm done with this conversation, which is very boring, and also pointless: I've never met anyone openly admitting to have said something racist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 10:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Whatever you think that was, you are missing the point. For example, if someone summarizes what sources say about [[racism]], that does not mean that he/she is a racist. I was asking "what in Russian culture/character made the atrocities [well-known through Russian history] possible?". This question has been debated many times in Russian literature (like in the novel by Tolstoy, etc.). That was my summary of these sources. If you disagree with Tolstoy or Voloshin, that's fine, but do not blame ''me'' of racism. Sure, there was some degree of WP:SYN in my comment, but I did not suggest including it on any pages. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 16:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Russian cruelty and servility is the wrong answer to the wrong question. You could ask that very same question about the Germans, Italians, British, Americans, etc., with the result of stereotyping national characters and always missing the truth. Atrocities always happen everywhere, and there's very little specific to national cultures to account for them. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:40, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I hope you are not going to deny that Russian and American cultures, for example, are very different, and that one can study these cultures and how they have affected the histories of the countries. Once again, I am not saying that one culture is better than another, but they very different. Would ''modern day'' US army commit [[Bucha massacre]] in Canada? Of course not. Why? There are many reasons, but one of them is the difference in culture. Of course the US army did bomb a number of wrong targets in Afghanistan, but the conduct of Soviet army in the same Afghanistan was still very much different, etc. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 21:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::what about the [[Mỹ Lai massacre]]? "Culture" doesn't explain anything: probably the culture of an American solider and that of a Russian soldier are much more similar than the culture of an American soldier and an American banker, journalist or HR activist. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::Sure thing, that was a terrible war crime by an unruly detachment. But did they do it with ''every'' Vietnamese village, or at least with every village close to which some activities by insurgents were found or suspected? Because that is what Soviet forces did in Afghanistan, Nazi forces did on the occupied Soviet territories, and yes, Russian forces do in Ukraine (and they do a lot more). That's the difference. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::@[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] I watched a few documentaries about modern-day US marines on YouTube and the dehumanisation modern US soldiers experience seems very similar to the depiction in [[Full Metal Jacket]]. There's nothing uniquely Russian about inhumane cruelty of soldiers Tolstoy writes about. Your interpretation of his works is rather peculiar. [[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] ([[User talk:PaulT2022|talk]]) 15:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::One can agree or disagree about it, but this is not a reason for making personal attacks like "racist rant" and so on. That was my point. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 18:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
== RfC on Amnesty and Stara Krasnianka ==
Hello @[[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]], @[[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] and @[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]], could you please have a look at [[User:Gitz6666/sandbox#Placement of military objectives near civilian objects|this sandbox]] and modify the text as you think best? Perhaps the text is too long - should we shorten it a bit? I'd like to publish it asap and, once it gets reverted, we can have an RfC using this text and the two questions formulated by Alaexis on the talk page, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine&diff=1103623562&oldid=1103612493&diffmode=source here]. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz6666]] as I wrote on the article talk page, I think the official response about Ukraine military needing to be stationed near civilians and attempting to evacuate them must be mentioned. See the coverage of Maliar's briefing in [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/04/ukraine-civilians-army-bases-amnesty-russia-war this Guardian article]. [[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]] ([[User talk:PaulT2022|talk]]) 15:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:@[[User:Gitz6666|Gitz6666]] Hmm. I think it is well written, but don't know if we should mention all of the sources and not just cite them. But we can ask that in the RfC as well. <span id="AdrianHObradors:1660148692307:User_talkFTTCLNGitz6666" class="FTTCmt">[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]] ([[User talk:AdrianHObradors|talk]]) 16:24, 10 August 2022 (UTC)</span>
::Yes, please change the text as you wish. Citing the sources instead of mentioning them could be a good way of shortening the text, we just need to avoid SYNTH. And we should strengthen the part on the criticisms and add the official response by the military, by all means. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:15, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::maybe also @[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] would like to help us improve the text. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 17:17, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:I am happy that you guys decided to make an RfC.[[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 19:02, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:It looks very good, thanks for putting it together. I have just two comments
:# Maybe we should say in the beginning that "The international humanitarian law says that each party to the conflict must, to the extent feasible, avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas." [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule23]
:# In the RfC I would ask three questions:
:## Should the article have the section dealing with the placement of military objectives near civilian objects?
:## If the answer to Q1 is yes, should the version you've written be used? If the answer to Q2 is no, please explain what changes are needed.
:## Should the subsection on Stara Krasnyanka be included as proposed? [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]]<sub>[[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]]</sub> 20:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::Thank you for your suggestions @[[User:AdrianHObradors|AdrianHObradors]]@[[User:PaulT2022|PaulT2022]]@[[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]].
::# I agree with the formulation of three questions by Aleaxis here above.
::# As suggested by Aleaxis, I added an introductory line on IHL. There's not only Rule 23 which is relevant here but also [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule24 Rule 24], so I quoted it.
::# I added the coverage of Maliar's briefing in the Guardian, as suggested by PaulT2022.
::# I slightly modified the text here and there - e.g. some info about the school in Yahidne, to make the section more balanced and informative.
::# If editors suggest us to shorten the text, then I'd follow AdrianHObradors's proposal - quoting the sources instead of mentioning them one by one. For the sake of simplicity I didn't change the text right now - if we loose the RfC it will be a waste of time anyway.
::If you want to do some editing in the sandbox, please help yourself. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 22:03, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::One minor change. Was also thinking whether we should change “emblematic” to “typical” or something similar, as “emblematic” is not a word I have seen in common use. However I see it is also quoted in the Times of Israel report, so I guess we should leave. Rest looks fine. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 23:00, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
::::Thank you, Ilenart626. A mysterious word. Had the OHCHR clearly said "it might have been a case of using human shields", our work as editors would have been much simpler. Instead it said that it was "emblematic of its concerns", and one wonders - what the heck is the "emblem" (the symbol) of a "concern"?!? couldn't they just say what they want to say? Anyway... thank you for the editing! [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:09, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Hi Gitz, wondering if it is worthwhile to request an uninvolved editor to [[Wikipedia:CLOSE|formally close the discussion]]. Might save a lot of arguements. I did this recently on another dispute and it worked well. [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 04:53, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Thanks @[[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]], good idea. As you have some experience with this, would you like to make the request? Otherwise I can do it myself but later on in the day or maybe tomorrow, thanks. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::ok, done refer [[Wikipedia:Closure requests#Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#RfC_on_military_objectives_near_civilians_and_Stara_Krasnianka_attack]] [[User:Ilenart626|Ilenart626]] ([[User talk:Ilenart626|talk]]) 09:33, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
==[[WP:Wikihounding]]==
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&type=revision&diff=1104942904&oldid=1104823457] - You never edited this page before. You followed my edits in a matter of hours only to revert them. You provided no explanation on article talk page, at least so far. Please do not do it again. Thanks. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 20:23, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
*:This is a poor reply to the helpful warning I gave you on your talk page: {{diff|prev|1104945479}}. I wasn't on [[Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis]] because of you. I was looking into the edit history of IP 187, whose recent block continues to surprise me: {{diff|prev|1103440965}}. Anyway, this message of yours prompted me to have a look at your recent edit history. The last edit you made, this one {{diff|prev|1104971932}}, is questionable: why do you remove the whole text if you can easily find the source? It's really not difficult as one only needs to search on google the text in the quotation marks. I hope you don't feel harassed by this {{diff|prev|1104990236}} and I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings, but we all are here to build an encyclopedia. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
:::I think it is clear from your reverts and personalized edit summaries [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1105014005&oldid=1105003398],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104979327&oldid=1104970597] that you do wikihounding. As about that another page were you followed my edits ''again'' (your diff), I removed unsourced contentious content that someone else already marked as unsourced. No, this is not my obligation to be looking for sources in such cases. This is an obligation of someone who included such materials. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 08:49, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
::::It's not a matter of {{tq|my obligation}}! This is a collaborative project, and if you stumble upon a "citation needed" tag before removing the text you should at least make an attempt at finding the missing source, which here was super easy - there was a verbatim quotation and you could have just made a search on google. Can't you see the difference between disruptive and productive editing? Re my edit summaries, there's nothing pointing at wikihounding. They invite you to do what you should do: refrain from edit warring and open a discussion, explain your edits on the talk page, build a consensus. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:08, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Will you please stop following my edits? Thanks. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 09:28, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::As I told you, I didn't follow your edit. But I should: I see that you're now meddling in [[Disinformation]] removing the sentence {{tq|[disinformatin] referred generally to lying and [[propaganda]]}} {{diff|prev|1105010718}}, which is a funny (not so funny) way of replying to the question I asked you on the talk page of [[Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis]]: {{tq|Could you please tell us, MVBW, what's the difference between "propaganda" and "disinformation"?}} I asked you that question because in your edit summary [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prev&diff=1104970119&oldid=] you claimed that propaganda {{tq|is not the same as disinformation}}. How do you answer my question? By modifying [[Disinformation]]!?! Too bad... [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 09:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
*As a reply to this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dennis_Brown&oldid=1105342415#Madiation_at_Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis], I think my edit summaries were sufficiently clear, for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104970597&oldid=1104970119]. However, your edit summary for revert of the same edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104979327&oldid=1104970597] did not really explain ''why'' did you revert. Something being for a long time on the page is NOT a valid reason to keep. Perhaps it did not properly summarize cited sources, did not belong to specific section of the page, etc. Now, you claimed in your edit summaries that some of my edit summaries were misleading. If so, you are very welcome to start the thread ''on article talk page'' (not on my talk page) and explain. Maybe I would agree with you? But you did not start such threads and did not explain. Instead, you did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gitz6666/sandbox&oldid=1105300543 this]. That does look like a [[WP:Battle]] to me. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 03:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
*:You had removed that text from the lead because [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104823457&oldid=1104822425] {{tqb|improper summary in the lead: the Ghost of Kyiv was only briefly mentioned on the page, and while apparently a myth and morale booster, is not generally described as disinformation or information warfare}} That reason was wrong because, as I explained to you when I revered you, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=1104942904&oldid=1104941924] {{tqb|The New York Times is not exclusively concerned with the Ghost of Kiev, which is quoted as paradigmatic of a more general concern: "some of the country’s official accounts have pushed stories with questionable veracity, spreading anecdotes". Therefore their assessment "Disinformation has also been part of Ukrainian online propaganda"}}
*:Did you read the New York Time piece? If so, why did you claim that the source was not about "disinformation or information warfare"? "Disinformation has also been part of Ukrainian online propaganda" is a verbatim quotation.
*:Anyway, when you removed the same text again offering a completely different rationale {{tqb|This is partly sourced [why partly?], but an improper/unbalanced summary of content in the body of the page. We can not dedicate 50% of the lead to something only briefly noted on the page}}
*:it was clear to me that you were adjusting your arguments strategically and that time for discussing via edit summaries was over. So I invited you to open a thread on the talk page, which was necessary also because you were making other massive removals of text and sources. Instead of disrupting other editors' work for no reason apart pushing an anti-Russian POV, you should try to build consensus on the talk. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 08:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:Re to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dennis_Brown&diff=prev&oldid=1105479774 this]. Removing poor quality content or something that does not belong to pages is almost as important as creating new content. On that particular page I did not hinder or stonewall anything. I will reply to content-related issues only on article talk page and only if I regard it as a productive discussion. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 14:03, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
== Notice Concerning Discretionary Sanctions ==
{{ivmbox | image = Commons-emblem-notice.svg |imagesize=50px | bg = #E5F8FF | text = This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. ''It does '''not''' imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.''
You have shown interest in '''Eastern Europe or the Balkans.''' Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|discretionary sanctions]] is in effect. Any administrator may impose [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Sanctions|sanctions]] on editors who do not strictly follow [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies]], or the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Page restrictions|page-specific restrictions]], when making edits related to the topic.
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This notice is just a formality required by ACDS. No imputation of improper conduct is intended. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 16:24, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:Thanks @[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]]l. If you think I should revert this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Disinformation_in_the_2021%E2%80%932022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis&diff=prev&oldid=1105506040&diffmode=source revert], please let me know. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:32, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
::If you are concerned that you have done more than one revert in the last24 hrs then yes, you should self-revert. Also, with 1RRin place I generally encourage discussion over reverts unless you believe the edit in question is really unhelpful. And of course, 1RR does not apply to naked vandalism, BLP and copyright violations. Best regards... -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 16:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
:::yes, that revert of mine undoes four separate edits by MVBW, as I explained on the talk page, so I was in doubt whether it counts for one or not. But if I'm not wrong, it still counts as one single revert, because that's what it is. [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 16:55, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
::::While I'd be inclined to let that go, I would encourage discussion to avoid any unpleasantness. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 17:35, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
== RfC clarity ==
This is not a nasty-gram, just a suggestion. I would have written your recent RfC more like this:
How should DPR and LPR be described?
# '''breakaway puppet quasi-state(s)'''
# '''Russian-supported breakaway state'''
I think the list of options makes it more clear than was the list of questions. But I wouldn't try changing it now. [[User:Adoring nanny|Adoring nanny]] ([[User talk:Adoring nanny|talk]]) 15:13, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for your suggestion @[[User:Adoring nanny|Adoring nanny]]. You're certainly right and next time I'll follow your suggestion. I copied this way of framing the question from the RfC now open in War crimes in Ukraine: if I'm not wrong, your comment is still missing there. Thanks, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 15:44, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
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==Reply==
Re to your comment on my talk page. Since your previous version of the text has been rejected at the RfC, I think you could suggest new version of your text at article talk page that would be agreeable for ''everyone'' taking part in discussions on ''article'' talk page. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 01:50, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
== Hugo Krabbe ==
Hi Gitz, I've seen you created the article on Hugo Krabbe and wanted it to be reviewed. What I mention is just what I see as good on wikipedia, but I had rather good experiences with this. I tend to add a source for each phrase (except for the lead). The article seems to have solid sources and if you could add a source to the end of each phrase the article might catch more interest from a potential reviewer. I do not though offer myself as reviewer, this is just some advice as I wouldn't be encouraged to review in this state. But from my point of view the article sure has a potential for a GA and judging from the sources you are not far from it. [[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]] ([[User talk:Paradise Chronicle|talk]]) 19:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
:Thank you for the suggestion @[[User:Paradise Chronicle|Paradise Chronicle]], it's much appreciated. As soon as I can, I'll do my best to comply with it, although I might have lost a bit of touch with the sources I used when I wrote the article, which was a few months ago - I forget quickly. It's a pity though that you don't offer yourself as reviewer, as you've already given me a good advice. All the best, [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
::{{done}} [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 21:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
== The dates that DPR and LPR declared independence ==
As far as I can tell, the DPR and LPR ''de facto'' declared independence several days before the status referendums were held. The status referendums were effectively the '''second''' time that independence was declared. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 18:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:Actually I don't know anything about this. Why do you tell me, @[[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]], is there any mistake that needs to be corrected? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:07, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:: In the article about DPR/LPR international recognition, it says that the declaration of independence occurred after/during (really quite vague) the status referendum. However, the two republics both "proclaimed" themselves to exist several days or weeks earlier, and then held the status referendums. After the referendums were successful, they declared independence for a second time. This is my understanding of the situation. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 19:26, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::Maybe you're right! Sources? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 19:56, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::: I don't have a source on me at the moment. I just remember being confused a few weeks ago, reading about it, and finding a news video of the DPR proclaiming its independence at a podium, several days earlier (according to the date of the video). The declaration after the referendum is more like the "reaffirmation" of independence. The DPR was created before the referendum took place... I think that's self-evident. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:05, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::The two status referendums both occurred on 11 May 2014. After the vote was successful, the DPR and LPR declared independence (at what day exactly? who knows... maybe a few days later). However, the DPR was initially proclaimed on 7 April 2014, whereas the LPR was initially proclaimed on 27 April 2014. The terms "proclaim" and "declare" are very similar in meaning. The only difference maybe is that "proclaim" is more revolutionary whereas "declare" is more official. The DPR and LPR were both initially created via a revolution (i.e. military force), and subsequently declared independence after a "democratic" (note: disputed) vote. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Okay, so what I can gather from the information I've found is that the DPR and LPR ''might not have'' technically "declared independence" back on 7 April and 27 April respectively. Instead, it can be ''possibly interpreted'' that they declared themselves to exist inside of Ukraine. So, it is ''possibly'' almost like they internally seceded within Ukraine, without actually seceding outside of the country altogether. It's ''possibly'' like they created a new province inside Ukraine. After the referendums were held, they seceded from the country entirely. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928] [https://www.rferl.org/a/separatists-declare-luhansk-peoples-republic/25364894.html] [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Quoting the second source ([https://www.rferl.org/a/separatists-declare-luhansk-peoples-republic/25364894.html]) - "We declare the establishment of a <u>sovereign state</u> - the Luhansk People's Republic... From now on, we are a free, independent Luhansk People's Republic." This is what the English translation says, and I can't speak Russian or Ukrainian, so I don't know what was actually said (but I'm presuming that the translation is accurate). The article was written on 28 April, and the video footage is from 27 April (not taking into account time zones). [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Quoting the first source ([https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928]) -- again, it might be lost in translation: "The congress... from Donetsk... proclaims a sovereign state, Donetsk People's Republic." This dates back to 7 April. [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::That means that our articles are correct, am I right? [[User:Gitz6666|Gitz]] ([[User talk:Gitz6666|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Gitz6666|contribs]]) 20:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::: The articles are correct in the info-boxes, yes, but a lot of the prose (paragraphs) all around the topic on Wikipedia don't explicitly say that the declarations of independence occurred on 7 April and 27 April. Instead, many of the paragraphs refer to the status referendums as the date of independence, which is inaccurate. One such article that does this is "[[International recognition of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic]]". [[User:Jargo Nautilus|Jargo Nautilus]] ([[User talk:Jargo Nautilus|talk]]) 20:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
== Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment ==
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}}<!-- Derived from Template:Ds/alert --> [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 10:44, 8 October 2022 (UTC)' |
Whether or not the change was made through a Tor exit node (tor_exit_node ) | false |
Unix timestamp of change (timestamp ) | '1665225872' |