Misplaced Pages

Comment by TheGoodLocust

Chris, more NPOV language has been suggested and you've rejected it. The problem with the current title is that it assumes a crime (hacking) was committed even though security experts have said it was most likely a leak. This is especially important since a lot of the defenders of the climategate scientists have tried to distract from the contents of the emails by shouting that they are victims of some horrible crime. I suggest you work towards improving the current title and then you wouldn't have to worry about people wanting to change it so much. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

As I've said, I have no objection to good-faith discussions, but we need to stop the repeated bad-faith attempts to introduce those two POV terms into the article title. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:58, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Please make sure your diffs show that the attempts are actually bad faith, not just bad faith in your view. ++Lar: t/c 22:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm referring to the likes of Macai's recent intervention in the section above this one. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:37, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not seeing that action as evidence of bad faith during discussions about moves. ++Lar: t/c 04:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe that the article name change proposal is headed for a content RfC. If consensus in the RfC is to change the name to some variation of "Climategate" then it will be so. That's how we do things. As long as the article content dispute resolution process is allowed to proceed without disruption, I don't think there's a problem here. Cla68 (talk) 23:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

As I've already told you, NPOV cannot be overridden by a consensus of editors, which doesn't exist in this instance. Go and read the 2nd para of WP:NPOV if you doubt me. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

But how do we know what NPOV is? There is no absolute NPOV, so we try to reach consensus on what is NPOV. The point is, many editors believe that the current title is POV, and that is what discussion must resolve. ATren (talk) 00:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, in this case we don't have to try to decide if it's NPOV or not. After seeing a neutral article in the Japan Times, among others, which referred to the incident as "Climategate", I was convinced that that title is now the de facto phrase used by the press. We report what the sources say. We have procedures for deciding consensus on issues like this one and those procedures, in this case likely an RfC, should not be preempted by administrator intervention. Cla68 (talk) 00:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• If consensus states that some form of "Climategate" (which a ton of reliable sources use) is more NPOV, we need a firm commitment that ChrisO, and the other editors who support the current, extremely awkwardly-worded title, will not claim that they know better, and move war over it. UnitAnode 07:51, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
  • For the record, this is the only Gnews result when searching "Climatic Research Unit hacking incident", which I thought was telling. Read the article. The one-sided nature of the Climategate article is giving WP a black eye. UnitAnode 07:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll try to search in Infotrac and NewsStand tomorrow and see what I come up with. Cla68 (talk) 08:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Call for an end to this kind of disruptive obstruction

The current name is enormously problematic, as has been discussed repeatedly. First of all it's not clear that hacking was involved, the information may have been leaked by an insider. This has been reported in reliable independent sources and we may well be misleading our readers. Yet those obstructing corrective improvements continue to dig in.

The same group of editors engaging in this obstruction are the ones 2over0 is protecting despite their insistent incivility, edit warring, and wikilawyering. It's time the editors causing problems be brought into line with our policies so the disruptions and distortions of the article to promote fringe propagandist viewpoints are stopped. The denialist editors who want to ignore all the reliable coverage of this scandal shouldn't be permitted to distort our content in an effort to suggest that the only relevant part of the incident is the accessing and publication of the information. The controversy over the information released is the most widely covered aspect of the incident, and its aftermath has already resulted in official findings of impropriety and further revelations of unscientific misinformation campaigns and misconduct. These issues need to be included in the encyclopedia per our core NPOV policy.

The title leaves out the controversy over the e-mails and focuses solely on another aspect of the event that isn't anywhere near as notable. There are very reasonable suggestions for incremental improvement such as adding and e-mail controversy to at least make the title more appropriate and inclusive.

This outrageous request to keep a completely inappropriate title and to prevent anyone from discussing the needed changes is another in a long series of disruptive attempts to prevent the article from being improved to make it neutral. It's outrageous and I think ChrisO should be given a break from his disruption of constructive article work. This kind of abusive obstruction isn't acceptable, it's damaging the encyclopedia and its contents, it's damaging to collegial cooperation, and it's gone on for way too long. It needs to be stopped. If ChrisO doesn't want to be part of the solution, he should be stopped from adding to the problems. A ban of he and William from this topic is certainly long overdue.ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Mark Nutley

Is this a joke? Not only can we not call it by it`s known name Climate gate now we are to be banned from talking about it? Bet Orwell never saw this one coming. Sorry guys, you do not have the right to censor wikipedia, if people want to discuss renaming the article then they can, regardless of what you think is best. --mark nutley (talk) 13:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's be quite clear, then

It seems what ChrisO (and now LHvU) are saying is this: it doesn't matter what the reliable sources call it. We're going to use our original research and synthesis to call it a convoluted, potentially misleading name. And we're going to quash any discussion of change because -- dammit! -- we know what's best! Amazing. UnitAnode 13:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Correct. "Climategate" is a POV nickname. We do not use POV nicknames. WP:NPOV#Article naming directs us to use descriptive names that do not take sides "for" or "against" any given issue. "Climategate" fails this because it takes sides. The media has no requirement not to take sides; we do. Therefore we do not slavishly ape the media; we find neutrally worded descriptive names. Compare "Killian documents controversy" with the POV media term "Rathergate", for instance. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

No it doesn't take side if we uses it as everybody else. Please re-read our policy on WP:V (we uses (secondary) sources). Quote it like 'Climategate' and we follow the standard used by (nearly?) every secondary source reporting/writing on this controversy (yes this is what most uses, some use scandal instead). Just take a look here: Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_hacking_incident/Climategate_usage. Yes, the name was established on/by a skeptic (blog), but have we etablished that it's meaning is not WP:NPOV by WP:RS sources now? Why are The Guardian, The Independent (and all the other media reporting on it) then using it? Are they now Skeptics and not true believers in the AGW hypothesis? Nsaa (talk) 09:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tony Sidaway

If editors are persistently repeating failed arguments for article moving for weeks on end and refusing to accept the results of the move discussions, they may be sanctioned for disruptive editing. We'd do this in any case, and I see no reason to tolerate this conduct just because they're engaging in this behavior under the noses of admins watching on a talk page under community probation. That should make our standards tighter, not more slack.

I think this page could also benefit from a cleanup, as there are clear signs of an attempt to turn this discussion into yet another move discussion. --TS 13:57, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• The whole point of the request was an attempt to tamp down move discussions. So, I think it can be forgiven if people discuss the relative merits of moving the page to a less neologistic, and more reliably-sourced, name. UnitAnode 14:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

  During my time editing that article there were about half a dozen failed move discussions. I take it that there have been more, all of them failed. No new arguments having emerged (I can see from above that this is so) then repeatedly nominating these moves could be disruptive. Deliberately wasting time on pointless arguing on a talk page is disruptive. Repeatedly "asking the other parent" in the hope of a different result is disruptive. Defences could be made, but the presumption is that those still presenting the same failed arguments are engaged in deliberate and knowing disruption. In particular, raising the same arguments on this page, where such discussion is inappropriate, may be disruptive in itself. --TS 14:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

  • I guess the question is, how much embarrassment will have to be visited upon the project by forcing the article to stay at such a neologistic name before people are willing to do anything? UnitAnode 14:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    Could we please not rerun the pro- and con- arguments from the talk page? That's where they belong, and they've all been duplicated numerous times throughout that page's archives. This is a proposal to resolve the disruption caused by the endless reruns. --TS 14:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

    • It's entirely impossible to consider whether one side of a discussion should be stifled without attempting to dig into the roots of the problem. I've long thought that the title of this article was hackneyed and forced, when a reliably-sourced, non-hackneyed version ("Climategate" or "Climategate scandal") is readily available. I simply had not noticed the discussions at that talkpage, as -- like many -- I was chased away by Connolley and the others when I dipped my toe in the GW waters at Garth Paltridge. Shutting down discussion by fiat is never good. Never. UnitAnode 15:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"Repeatedly "asking the other parent" in the hope of a different result is disruptive.". Part of the problem with the editing environment of this article (and others) is that one side sees themselves as "the parent".JPatterson (talk) 15:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it's a good thing that at least one group of editors in the discussion is known for its longevity on Misplaced Pages and knowledge of how things are done here. My analogy here could have been better, though. I should more properly have referred to editors repeatedly hammering away at the same failed arguments in the hope that objections to a rename to "Climategate" will disappear one day. If it will happen, it will happen, but in the meantime hammering away on the subject isn't going to persuade. It only distracts attention and may even be counter-productive. --TS 19:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I am mainly in agreement with your conclusions and said as much here. I do think the constant condescension exhibited by some editors gets in the way of productive work. It is especially inappropriate in an article that is not about the science but about how an historical event has played out in the real world. The article should reflect that reality, and each editor should be on equal footing as we attempt to reach that goal. JPatterson (talk) 20:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The condecension is possibly unavoidable. Scientifically literate editors tend to have little patience with the constant retreading of ancient myths that passes for discussion of global warming on the "skeptical" side, and these myths have turned up with a horrible predictability in discussion of the hacking incident and its aftermath. As we're supposed to be reporting the facts, maintaining focus on the known facts rather than speculation and myth is especially important. It's a very difficult job, full of repetition. This doesn't excuse the sometimes shocking incivility of discussion, but it does provide context on why the level of discussion is very low. Scientifically literate editors acquainted with the mainstream position grow weary of the constant dripping of misconceptions from those who would inflate, usually out of ignorance, the scientific strength of various minority positions. There are only so many times one can approach the news that "it's been a very cold winter in Illinois" story with a cheerful heart. The level of ignorance of basic science displayed by some Wikipedians involved in editing global warming articles is sometimes nothing short of shocking. --TS 20:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand the issue. Two points: I reiterate that this article is not about science but rather what has been reported in RSs about the behavior of some scientists. Secondly, I would put it to you that condescension is generally counter-productive to your stated goal. Poking and prodding frustrated editors only fans the flames of passion and encourages more to charge the ramparts. I suppose it is useful from your viewpoint that a certain number of unsophisticated neophytes will take the bait and find themselves at the business end of the sanction chipper but personally I don't think this works overall to the good of the project. JPatterson (talk) 21:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

JPatterson, this article is about an incident inextricably linked to the science, the minority or fringe opposition to mainstream science, and political use of the incident to promote denial of the current findings of science. We have to make clear the majority view of the science, and show how minority views have been received by the majority. We also have to show the majority views of the behaviour of the scientists whose supposedly private correspondence has been publicised, as you suggest. All part of npov. Passionate attempts by newcomers to promote political or fringe views are common, and we have to helpfully persuade them that they should follow policies. . . dave souza, talk 22:39, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I generally agree with the above but I don't see how this article is about "the minority or fringe opposition to mainstream science". It is by no means a fringe view that the emails and computer codes cast a pall over the attitudes, policies and procedures at the CRU. This would be a true statement even if it were not supported by the statements of many scientists in the field (which it is) because according to polls it is the majority view in the US and a strong minority view in the UK and has been widely discussed in any number of RSs. That doesn't mean that view is correct. This may in fact be a denialist conspiracy, but if so, its been a successful one and we have an obligation to reflect reality. My objection is to editors on both sides who want to use WP as a propaganda instrument. It is not our job to either bash the scientists or protect them but rather to provide an accurate portrayal of the events, their context and their social, political and scientific impacts. JPatterson (talk) 15:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

We are restricted by WP:BLP from throwing blog-sourced mud at individuals working at CRU, until after the inquiries report and we have unimpeachable sources for doing so. My view is the science will have changed not one jot, but a few scientists may be told to be more careful what they write during work-time after this. The denialist furore will die down with no further fuel and those who helped hype it up will just look silly. That's why we need to be sensible, stick to policies, and let others in the commercial media go out onto unsupportable limbs if they want. --Nigelj (talk) 16:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

To bring the discussion round full circle, its a pretty thin branch we find ourselves on what with "hack" in both the title and lead. JPatterson (talk) 16:42, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

It's sort of funny to have these quite naked innuendoes pointed in my direction in a discussion about failed arguments and condescension. The statement "I suppose it is useful from your viewpoint" is a failed argument because it presupposes that I have a viewpoint in which this matters. The reference to "oking and prodding frustrated editors" presupposes, contrary to my clear statements to the contrary just above, that I approve of uncivil behavior. This isn't funny, it's downright annoying, and I almost feel moved to condescension. We cannot communicate if all the time we're talking across one another. This might happen less if you would pay attention to what I'm saying. --TS 01:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you going to condemn some arrogance and condescension on your side, or is your condemnation reserved only for people you disagree with? Hipocrite (talk) 15:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

See my comment section above on Macai for an example of my condemnation of someone on the opposite side as you. I reject your implication however that I have a side in this. I have been inaccurately identified with the skeptic camp only because the article was so blatantly skewed toward the tempest in a teapot meme. In attempting to nudge it toward neutrality I have of course run into to more opposition from your side than from the other. JPatterson (talk) 15:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Scjessey

The key to all of this is the investigation by Norfolk police. When the investigation is concluded, we should find out for certain whether or not a hack occurred. Other details may also be revealed, such as who stole the data and what the motive was. Retitling proposals prior to the conclusion of the investigation are unlikely to be successful. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

So in the interim I suggest we use the phrase the Norfolk police used and replace "hacking" with "data breach" in the title. I have proposed this on the talk page. Please comment there. 16:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by A Quest For Knowledge

I propose that we change #1 to "Discussions of changes to the article's name which incorporate the terms Climategate or scandal in the article title are limited to one renaming proposal per calendar month" since that seems to be the major problem. It violates WP:AVOID and has no reasonable chance of reaching consensus. Other suggestions, such as ScienceApologist's Climatic Research Unit e-mails, do not violate WP:AVOID and unlike Climategate have a reasonable chance of reaching consensus. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'll ask again: does it not matter what the reliable sources call the incident and following kerfuffle? A simple yes or no, with a short explanation would be nice. UnitAnode 16:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I think not. Ultimately the community decides what is acceptable. WP:Title requires that titles adhere to a stricter standard of neutrality than even the article itself. While I do not understand why Climategate invokes such a visceral reaction in some, I take the fact that it does in good faith and therefore as prima facia evidence that it is not NPOV. Until or unless that changes I see nothing to be gained from rehashing it over and over. BTW I feel exactly the same way about "hack" and "hacking" in the title and lead. It's not NPOV. JPatterson (talk) 23:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Malcolm - I've new to this argument but from previous experience it's unlikely that the resistance to Climategate is policy-based. Or indeed reasonable in some other fashion. If there are good arguments (or a consensus reached by editors) then I'm sure someone can present these arguments in some easily understood form such as a table. Having said which, I'm not sure that even a title that is factually false like this one is important enough to battle over. Far more important is that the suite of Global Warming articles be made fit for purpose. Currently they fail to inform the readers on any of the issues most likely to bring people to read them. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 18:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Both warring factions fight over the most minute of details - no matter how unimportant - if they think it gives their side an advantage. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by EngineerFromVega:

I'd like to oppose this as it will set a dangerous precedent of blocking edits and moves based on some editors' opinion. A request to move a article is in no way harmful for this article or for Misplaced Pages. EngineerFromVega (talk) 23:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by ZP5*:

Point 1 could slow things down to a civil pace. Point 2 could be excepted with weighty source support. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 03:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Nsaa

For the first ChrisO: Misplaced Pages is written by following WP:V and specifically Secondary sources as outlined at WP:SECONDARY. This supersedes WP:WTA#Controversy and scandal big time. Just read our pillars at Misplaced Pages:Five pillars stating "That means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics.". Secondary: Our current article name (Climatic Research Unit hacking incident) fails this big time. The current article name is even not the hole truth and make a point out of something that is not important at all in this regard (per WP:UNDUE) since it claims that it was a hacking incident, which many sources has told us otherwise (it may be a insider, leak , it may be published by CRU at an open ftp server, it was even said that some of the CRU scientist published their email AND password in all their correspondence.. Third: Our current title "Climatic Research Unit hacking incident" has NO support by ANY secondary source. A short Google News search on the current article name gives ZERO, NILL hit (except for Solomons "highly acclaimed" piece talking about our article). Climategate gives instead 1644 per 2010-02-08 . Claiming that a title like 'Climategate' is not WP:NPOV is, to say it mildy, strange. Every secondary source we have for this incident uses this. Even the most leftist green AGW newspaper like The Independent and The Guardian, just take a look here for some examples on how broad the Climategate usage is: Talk:Climatic Research Unit hacking incident/Climategate usage.

ChrisO is known for just removing well sourced material in this regard . Making treat against me for just be part of an ongoing discussion asking awkward question to him . Calling other editors and outside people by name .

He and some of the other editors at this page looks like they're so desperate that they don't event allow a WP:RS source to be included in the talk page. See what I find as an absurd discussion here Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_hacking_incident/Archive_20#Pressmulti_-_removal_of_a_piece_with_millions_of_readers.3F_-_Climategate:_the_corruption_of_Wikipedia (read it and you see how far out they are willing to go to keep out critics of the AGW-belief).

I think some serious actions needs to be done against this kind of collusion.

• ChrisO get a serious warning that this kind of incorporative behavior. It is not acceptable.
• Just trying to hijack the article by getting a ban on even trying to "Editors may not make proposals to incorporate the terms Climategate or scandal in the article title." is so anti Misplaced Pages that it in itself maybe is reason for a reaction.

Nsaas references

1. McMillan, Robert (2009-11-20). "Global warming research exposed after hack". Computerworld. Archived from the original on 2009-11-26. Retrieved 2009-11-26. Judging from the data posted, the hack was done either by an insider or by someone inside the climate community who was familiar with the debate, said Robert Graham, CEO with the consultancy Errata Security. Whenever this type of incident occurs, "80 percent of the time it's an insider," he said.
2. Police question global warming 'sceptic' scientist over 'Climategate' email leak
3. Data-leak lessons learned from the 'Climategate' hack
4. "Climatic Research Unit hacking incident" in Google News
5. http://news.google.com/news/search?q=Climategate 1644 per 2010-02-08 ()
6. removing Climategate from the text
7. Removing Climategate from the text again
8. ^ (→Prepare to a RfC: - fair warning) Since you appear to be determined to be tendentious, I'll put you on notice: if you pursue this further I will ask for probation enforcement against you and a general injunction against proposals to include "Climategate" in the article title. Cite error: The named reference "wpdiff_342285425" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
9. Per both WP:V and WP:RS blogs that is published in a newspaper under full editorial control can be used as a reliable source. Let's quote "Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professional journalists or are professionals in the field on which they write and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control.". The highly contested(http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100020515/climategate-the-corruption-of-wikipedia/) piece by James Delingpole (on the talk page!) falls under this definition

Nsaa (talk) 11:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

It looks like the usage of Climategate even by the Misplaced Pages:WTA#Controversy_and_scandal can soon be justified ("They should not be used in article titles except in historical cases") . It starts to be an historic event by the publishing of books in the area. See http://www .examiner. com/x-9111-Environmental-Policy-Examiner~y2010m2d9-Global-warming-When-in-doubt-slime-the-opposition Global warming: When in trouble, slime the opposition which talks about the book Climategate: The CRUtape Letters (ISBN 1450512437). Nsaa (talk) 08:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It's a non-notable self-published rant by a pair of non-notable anti-science activists. So no. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

This kind of comments will by time earn you a block or a topic ban. Nsaa (talk) 08:57, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

If you insist on dredging up self-published junk (which is plainly not a reliable source) then you have no grounds to object when someone points out its uselessness. You would be better off trying to find mainstream reliably published sources rather than self-published anti-science rants. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Please? Hopefully you don't say this when Cambridge University Press publish a book with this title? You know, a book like The Skeptical Environmentalist was published there (by many of your "friends" called by the same kind of language you now uses). Nsaa (talk) 09:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Dmcq

The acrimony surrounding the name indicates to me that as neutral a name as possible should be used so the contents of the article can be edited in a more NPOV fashion. It is allowable for names like 'Climategate' to be used in redirects to the article so there is no problem about people finding it. After the whole business has died down in a couple of years the matter should probably be revisited and perhaps then it can be called climategate if that still seems appropriate but for the moment I would like something that removed the hacking as well from the title since there has also been objections to that. As to that reliable blog in the Telegraph are we to take the statement 'James Delingpole is a writer, journalist and broadcaster who is right about everything.' as being in a reliable source and written under full editorial control? I really would like to see a bit more cool in the discussions on the talk pages. Dmcq (talk) 13:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

James Delingpole and his blog at The Daily Telegraph can be discussed ad nauseam. My point was that his piece describing our article was not allowed in the top of our talk on serious dubious reasons (See ChrisOs way of argument ...). Just read this discussion Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_hacking_incident/Archive_20#Pressmulti_-_removal_of_a_piece_with_millions_of_readers.3F_-_Climategate:_the_corruption_of_Wikipedia. One of them was that it was not a WP:RS piece and therefore could not be used in such a prominent place ... (I claim only that this piece is good enough for being used in the {{pressmulti}}-template on the talk page). Nothing else. The Telegraph will never allow blog post under it's domain name that's not reliable and attracts millions of readers without editorial control (he as any other journalist can make wrong statements, and the editorial control can miss on it. I don't say anything else.). They don't kill themselves. Nsaa (talk) 09:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I just had a read again and it seemed to have very little at all to do with the Climate Research Unit controversy. It was more an attack on the wikipedia handling of it and other related issues. If anything it should be in with the other global warming controversy stuff perhaps in a special wikipedia section. I'm not concerned about sticking in references which criticize wikipedia and I'm unsure if there is a BLP issue, I'd check on the BLP noticeboard first about that. Dmcq (talk) 11:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You can see for yourself. Now since I found one article mention our "Climatic Research Unit hacking incident" article, I inserted it in our talk page here. If you have the nerve you can also insert the other references out-commented. It should obvious be there, but ... Thanks for checking it out! Nsaa (talk) 11:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Being mentioned in a blog hosted on the press site hardly sounds like being in the press to me. Dmcq (talk) 12:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Five minutes and it out. Without discussion. Without anything. I'm sick of these non cooperative people. Nsaa (talk) 11:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, of course, it's vandalism to remove your demands that we include an off-hand mention of a blog posting on a newspaper site from a talk page, and, of course, it's always people that disagree with you that are "non cooperative," because you've been the paragon of reasonable compromise. Hipocrite (talk) 12:02, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Please, be polite. Why is {{press}} and {{pressmulti}} being used all over. A lot of other articles uses blog post from newspapers. See for example our own Talk:William_Connolley (that is closely watched by the same removalists) mentions the same blogger (for a long time Samw 2008-05-04T02:11:18 (add press reference), not added by me). Nsaa (talk) 12:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Ahhh. this is bad . Can an admin look at it and give some of these people a break? Nsaa (talk) 12:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

This is bad. You're linking to an unreliable blog posting with inaccurate derogatory material about a BLP. I've undone your edit, please desist. . .dave souza, talk 12:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Come on, there's more her. Look at THIS Talk:Geert_Wilders. They've used pajamasmedia.com/blog. No. Please reasch consensus before removing this stuff. At the {{Press}} or on other higher level places. Nsaa (talk) 12:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

So, other stuff exists. Argue it out on that talk page. . . dave souza, talk 12:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes other stuff exist. What is your point? We're discussion usage of {{press}}, not the specific article as I see it. Can we add (newspaper) blogs to press or not? I've just stated that people tries to remove unpleasant coverage (yes I didn't like it either. It's bad for Misplaced Pages, but this removal stuff just let them get a point about us. They now ccan claim that we "remove and twist the reality"?). And about WP:BLP. Read this: Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive77#Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_e-mail_hacking_incident (it has been raised as you see) Nsaa (talk) 12:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

User_talk:Nsaa#3rr (I've always tried to behave at Misplaced Pages, but now I got my second 3rr warning. I know this is some of the tactic from the collision partners. Why I got it I don't know. I've not enganged in any edit war in any article, but have just protected the project from disruptive edits to make a point at some talk pages. Nsaa (talk) 13:25, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Oren0

Two points. First, the current name is a violation of WP:V and is an inaccurate description of the current article. Second, WP:WTA is a guideline and there are many articles with -gate or scandal in their names, such as Bandargate scandal, Coingate scandal, and many many more. Oren0 (talk) 04:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

In response to 2over0's recent comment, my impression is that the problem is on the way to being resolved. A number of editors seem to be actively collaborating on user talk pages to iron out differences and focus on a single name that they all find acceptable. This is a bit unorthodox but, if it gains sufficient support, I think it may well achieve a resolution nearly everybody can live with. --TS 01:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe this belongs on WP:WQA instead of here. Toddst1 (talk) 17:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

No one watches wikiquette alerts (my experience), and I would like action taken on this. A suggestion has been made to move it to the Climate Change Probation area. Awickert (talk) 17:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Considering some of these diffs involve violations at locations that are on article probation, perhaps this belongs at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement instead. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 17:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

That is probably true, I am about to lose internet access for about 45 minutes; could someone move it please? Thanks, Awickert (talk) 17:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

From Heyitspeter: I think most of these diffs are unactionable, but having said that, I fully agree (from experiences with Thegoodlocust on pages that perhaps aren't being watched by the OP) that he could benefit from a huge restructuring of his practices. A considerable percentage of his contributions involve semi-irrelevant polemic and divert discussion down unprofitable paths.--Heyitspeter(talk) 18:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Hahah well there you go. It looks as though my response was anticipated by several minutes and 2/0, impressed by the solemn words he predicted I would employ, acted early. I'm down with closing this request now.--Heyitspeter (talk) 18:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment Mark NutleyDo you not think TGL should at least be allowed to defend himself before passing judgement? Some of the diffs are a month old for gods sake, this is ridiculous. --mark nutley (talk) 19:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Which diff? I thought I picked them from entirely within the past week, but I could have slipped up. In any case, yes, I am happy to let him defend himself. But I think that it is patently not ridiculous to bring up an editor who is argumentative but doesn't contribute content. You (of course) are free to form your own analysis of what's going on. Awickert (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually the Chavez (climate change?) diff is one of the newer ones - you posted 6 diffs that are over a month old (long before my restriction). Oh and I DO contribute content, the most recent example is the article I created, from scratch, known as INCCA. Also, you've misrepresented most of my posts and put in your own interpretation that was plainly not there. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I wrote how they appeared to me. If your posts appear hostile to an uninvolved editor, there is likely a problem. Sorry for the >1 month ones, screwed up on that. But <10% content contribs is a small minority. Awickert (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I talk a lot but I don't think that's a crime. I usually try to present things on talk and let other people make the edits and often try to persuade people to do the right thing. I suppose I could find a few articles and then revert everyone to get my articlespace count up - would that be preferable? My articlespace edits are quality, not quantity, and I've improved lots of scientific articles (e.g. quasars). Also, how exactly do you qualify yourself as uninvolved? I'm curious what standard you are using.TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:47, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll rescind my "step back" for direct responses. We could go ad nauseum about the edits, but I have not seen many significant changes in articles coming from you. That's all.

You pose a fair question. "Uninvolved" in the above context means "3rd person": I wasn't part of that conversation. Awickert (talk) 20:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Awickert, I think arguments which try to quantify an editor's value are fundamentally flawed. For example, the 10% number you cite: for editors who work on contentious articles, it's quite possible for a good faith editor to accumulate dozens of talk page edits in the process of debating a point, and not a single article edit is made in during those debates. In fact, in my experience with contentious topics, those who edit article space without talking might be considered less productive, if many of those edits are simple reverts without supporting discussion. ATren (talk) 12:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment from ATren Once again, justice is swift and harsh against one side of the debate, while response to similar infractions from the "other side" is apologetic and weak. And once again it's 2/0 handing out this uneven punishment, seemingly without input from the other admins. Let me be clear: I do not necessarily think action against TGL is unwarranted, but in the context of the level of enforcement leveled against other editors, this is much too harsh. And therein lies the problem on the GW pages: years of uneven enforcement have created an environment of hostility and distrust. Until admins show similar willingness to enforce against all offending parties, this will continue to be a war zone. ATren (talk) 19:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, let me understand, as I haven't yet decided what I think of this one - you believe this is the right action to take about TGL, but you oppose it because other bad actors have also not been banned? Hipocrite (talk) 19:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I haven't decided on this one either, and that's part of the problem -- not even a day has passed and we're already at enforcement. Similar complaints against others (some with more evidence) have festered for days without action, and then closed as "unparseable" after the threads exploded. My complaint is the inconsistent level of enforcement, which this quick action clearly demonstrates, IMO. ATren (talk) 19:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you should review this complaint, then, as opposed to making a meta complaint. When you've decided if your issue is the poorness of the decision to ban TGL, or the poorness of the decision to not-ban WMC, we can figure out what section you'd like to comment in. Hipocrite (talk) 19:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I think I can answer: "Already at enforcement" is actually the result of 2/0 and I doing the same thing, at the same time, independently, except that he did it with more oomph. It's unrelated to this. Awickert (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that it is unrelated. The diffs involve predominantly climate change articles, so it should have been brought here for discussion before enforcement. 2/0 certainly knows about this probation page, and yet he was more than willing to act on enforcement without a request here and without discussion here. This is yet another example of 2/0 taking quick, unilateral action against so-called "skeptics" -- previously he did it with JPat, GoRight, and was close to doing it with Gavin Collins -- while he defends editors on the other side (see his earlier extended defense of WMC's sanction-violating "yahoos and idiots" smears). It's clearly uneven enforcement from 2/0. The absolute worst thing that can happen in this probation is for admins to act rashly, unilaterally, and with apparent bias; yet that's what we've seen from 2/0 from the start. Now, in this particular case, he should revert his unilateral decision and let the discussion play out with the other admins who have been watching this debate. After that time, it may very well be that some sort of sanction would be applied to TGL. But this action was too quick, too strong, and too unilateral. ATren (talk) 19:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

There are several misconceptions here. Firstly the probation explicitly provides for what you refer to as "unilateral" enforcement. A discussion is not required. Secondly, This user has been sanctioned several times in the past, and on January 5th was given a logged warning for pretty much the same kind of problem behavior he's been exhibiting for the past month now. If you think you discern a pattern of misbehaving editors being given escalating sanctions as they fail to address their problems, you're right, you're not imagining it. That is how the probation is supposed to work. 2over1 is explicitly supposed to have a bias in that regard. If the bias you discern is that the sanctioned editors tend to be (but are not always) acknowledged to be here explicitly to push a fringe scientific point of view, you're also probably right. Coming to this Wiki for that purpose probably shows a certain lack of clue, and such poor judgement typically manifests itself independently in other problematic behavior. --TS 20:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for 2/0's unilateral action when it comes to Scjessey calling all Christians dumb and the other political nonsense that he and other pro-AGW are constantly bringing up in the climate change articles. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say anything of the sort. I said "he public are ignorant folks who believe in dumb stuff like 'clean coal' and Jesus." In otherwords, I said Jesus was dumb, not the people who believe in him. This is exactly the kind of antagonistic misrepresentation that shows how appropriate a topic ban is, although an indef block would be a more sensible approach. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow, actually defending that statement eh? Well, regardless of what you think of it I'm still waiting for the unitlateral action against you for statements like that which are far worse than any diff that's been posted about me. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, whatever. Just keep diggin' that hole. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:02, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure this or that is the place to be praising or slamming religious figures. If the goal is a professional environment. Just saying... Mackan79 (talk) 22:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Damn, does this mean it's no longer open season on Xenu? -- ChrisO (talk) 22:42, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

It might include Drew Brees if you're in New Orleans. But now I'm creating the distraction, ah well. Mackan79 (talk) 23:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(E/C) I was only trying to say that 2/0 posted Thegoodlocust's topic ban 3 minutes before I posted this thread, so it can't be taken to be a decision based on what I wrote here. I did post this earlier at AN/I, but deleted it quickly and 2/0 used different diffs than I did, so I don't think that there is a relation between those two. No other comments from me at the moment, Awickert (talk) 20:27, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment from Arzel There is a lot to be said about this blatent attempt to stiffle any disenting discussion on AGW articles, but it would be both redundant and possible grounds for a future banning of me. Arzel (talk) 01:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I think Arzel has hit the nail dead on the head. I can't speak for every one of the diffs since I have not read them all. But the few I have read look like just someone simply making an arguement. Are we not allowed to argue?!? There's a difference between truely disruptive posts and basic arguing to make point. The admins here should try to figure out the difference, and then draw the line equally for both camps. Of course who am I to talk, I have a hipocrite trying to get me banned. Sirwells (talk) 01:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

If you are aware of any editors on the other "side" who have a similar record - who managed to rack up 5 blocks and a six-month topic ban in less than 100 article-space edits, and who have taken a consistently argumentative stance here without any record of positive contribution to the project to even begin to balance the ledger, with extra BLP bonus points for this now-deleted contribution - then please open a request and I would happily support an editing restriction. This is basically the same behavior that led to the topic ban from Obama-related articles. Whether or not you think there's a double standard at work, this isn't part of it. MastCell  04:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh the top of my head? Scjessey. Who I've already shown to have made edits that are far more disruptive and insulting than mine. Oh, and I can't see the edit you are referring to, but the link seems to refer to Miley Cyrus. According to my talk page, I had to refresh my memory, I'd mentioned on the talk page something about her controversial relationship with a 20 year old man while she was a minor. Big freaking deal. Also, your characterization that I haven't made any useful edits is a flat out slander that you people keep on repeating. Just because I haven't spent years reverting other people's content to get my edit count up doesn't mean my edits haven't been worthwhile. TheGoodLocust (talk) 04:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh and while some of those blocks may have been valid, I recall several that were completely without merit and without proof - kind of like this whole fiasco, but at least this time diffs were provided so I could debunk them. TheGoodLocust (talk) 04:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey (talk · contribs) has been blocked five times, three of which were overturned. That's over the course of about 4,200 article edits. He was also topic-banned from Obama articles for 6 months. His comment about Jesus was completely over the line and offensive. I'll go along with the parallel to a certain extent, with the caveat that Scjessey's positive contributions to the project are an order of magnitude greater than yours. Whether that balances the negative is an open question, I suppose. MastCell  06:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, well I don't fall for "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" since a lot the much touted edit counts of some of these users is a symptom of countless edit wars over a period of years - reverting content you don't like doesn't make a person a good editor. The simple fact of the matter is that the one edit you agree is "completely over the line" 'is a pattern with him and more importantly, even on this page he defended that statement and found nothing wrong with it. Additionally, as I've already stated, my content is of quality, not of quantity and I'm sure that article space edit to article space edit that mine have improved the encyclopedia far better than his. Of course, I guess I shouldn't give your opinion on the matter too much weight considering your rather close editing relationships with some of the more prolific pro-AGW editors. TheGoodLocust (talk) 06:25, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

That edit war claim is bogus. A huge proportion of my article space edits are unique articles, given that my average number of edits per article is a little more than 3. If your best defense for your poor behavior is to attack another editor, it is clear that sanctions are appropriate. If anyone has an issue with me, they can file an RFC/U against me. In the meantime, this is your party TGL. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh on the contrary Scjessey, I think it is highly relevant because you were one of the first people I encountered at wikipedia and my behavior, if at all objectionable, is due to the example set by your (and others) behavior. For example, when you said you wanted to use the bug spray "RAID" on me, without sanction (again a surprise), that gives new editors the impression that such behavior is acceptable. Of course, if I'd made the comment, considering the creative interpretations of my diffs, then it would've been seen as not only a threat of murder via poison gas, but also anti-semetic as well with appropriate accusations of white supremacy. By the standards you and the rest of the AGW crowd have shown my behavior has been exemplary - then again, I'm not trying to provoke people in order to get them banned.TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, TGL, there is very little place on wikipedia for editors with your WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing. You're clearly not here to add encyclopedic content, but just to game the system. What you write makes no sense at all. Mathsci (talk) 00:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I haven't promoted any battleground mentality. The problem is that the people who are obviously promoting that environment have never faced meaningful sanction and so they will continue using wikipedia as their personal latrine while complaining when someone applies a little bleach to the situation. TheGoodLocust (talk) 00:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

If you had a reasonable namespace editing record, your statements might be considered seriously. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the case. Mathsci (talk) 01:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

In case you hadn't noticed, this page has shown that several long term editors have noticed the same problems (ask Unitanode what he thinks). However, this elitist concept that you are promoting, that only the right people can articulate valid criticisms, is the same notion that got these articles in the terrible state they are in - all rules are ignored for the "science" (even though the problems aren't scientific in nature) or "great justice" because the so-called good guys are telling us what to do. TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:31, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

So what's the going rate for getting away with "over the line offensive" remarks about religious faith? 10000 edits? 40% article edits? What level do I have to achieve before can I attack others with impunity? ATren (talk) 07:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) I thought this section was "Comments by others about the request concerning Thegoodlocust". Not about TGL badgering others, and not about content complaints. Anyways, since he's already topic banned, keeping this open seems to only serve the purpose of watching TGL make more of a fool of himself. He's had his Miranda rights, so unless it's for an ArbCom case, I think we should collapse and close the thread. ChyranandChloe (talk) 09:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The only foolish behavior here comes from those making the fundamental attribution error.TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. SIX different editors have asked for enforcement against WMC, three of them have resulted in warnings against WMC (but of course it never goes beyond that because WMC is untouchable), yet ChrisO is presenting this as evidence of "abuse for political reasons"? Really?

It's unbelievable to me how much apologizing is done on behalf of this one long term, abusive user. If admins would actually take a stand for once, maybe these requests would go away. ATren (talk) 23:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable to state that the targetting of William M. Connolley (which is clearly taking toll on his equanimity) is overtly political and driven or at least strongly encouraged by, identifiable and quite openly declared outside interests. He has been attacked in the most dishonest terms by Lawrence Solomon and another writer, and there are any number of blogs repeating their easily debunked falsehoods as fact.

We do not want to go down the route of disabling an editor simply because of extensive falsehoods written about him by people with a declared interest. On the other hand we must ensure that his failings, which are real, do not unduly warp our content. This is a difficult path to follow, because in truth he is a very valuable and welcome content editor and his conduct is in the broad context rather good. At the same time the conduct of those who attack him tends to be rather mixed and their value to this encyclopedia is often quite low or even negative.

Whatever happens isn't going to be pretty. As long as we all recognise the immense external pressure William M. Connolley is under, we can be understanding at the same time as we are protective of Misplaced Pages's norms.

I think Mark is a good editor who doesn't appreciate the problems in this particular area. Hopefully he can be educated. --TS 23:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Tony, WMC has been doing this for years, it's just now being recognized by more editors. And the editors filing these reports are not Scibaby, nor are they IPs that came out of the woodwork -- in fact, most have long edit histories outside of this debate. As for the "immense pressure", well if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. ATren (talk) 23:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

You were doing fine (but without presenting evidence) until you dismissed the external pressure. This is real, we're aware of it. It's not deniable in the terms you use here. --TS 23:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I am working to collect evidence. It is a daunting problem to analyze tens of thousands of edits, and I am actually writing code to do so. It will take time, but I've been watching long enough to be confident in what the result will be.

As for pressure, this is a website. Nothing life or death here. So if the pressure is so strong that an editor cannot maintain the minimal level of decorum required, then he should not edit. Civility is a core policy, and no single editor should supercede it.

Also, consider this thought: what will happen if an admin takes a hard line against WMC? There's certainly the possibility he will leave, but it's also possible he will stop the behavior that got him sanctioned. It's happened to many former "problem" editors who reformed their behavior after being blocked. Right now, there's little reason for vested contributors like WMC to behave, because they know they're untouchable, but if they know they're going to be held to the same standard as everyone else, there's a good chance they'll adhere to that standard while still being a productive contributor. ATren (talk) 00:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

What policy is Mark Nutley breaking? He's filed three independent requests in response to three independent incidents. Viewing reactions to the diffs given for other editors on this project page (e.g., see the "Kauffer" request above) it's not confused for MN to assume that the diffs given in his requests were actionable, whether or not they were actually acted upon.--Heyitspeter (talk) 00:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

He's violating the policy against nitpicking, as well as the policy against timewasting. You didn't know those policies existed? Think again. --TS 00:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Hahah man I hate to WP:NITPICK but are you sure WP:NITPICK exists? If it doesn't then I've been ] trying to find it, in which case I hope that policy doesn't exist either...--Heyitspeter (talk) 00:45, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

There where 6 editors filing for enforcement in 9 threads and many others complaining about WMC with constant evasion ... it's predictable that MN would be complained here. How can MN be any worse than the many incivil diffs presented against WMC? Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 01:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• I hereby encourage Marknutley to ignore this ludicrous "ban", as it has no basis in either policy or the actual sanctions. In fact, it stands in complete contravention to the sanctions. What utter nonsense. Scottaka UnitAnode 04:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Interesting point about contravention to the sanctions, I had not considered. I would prefer to see MN make better complains, perhaps there should be a wikilawyer's services (in the good faith interpretation) to assist him with forming the complaint and the process. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 05:00, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Request concerning ChildofMidnight

User requesting enforcement

ChyranandChloe (talk) 00:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. from Talk:Global warming
   Unproductive discussion, repeats ad nauseum issues without source and substantial reasons, WP:FORUM
2. I'm sure our admin elite will sort this mess out in no time once they're made aware of it and have a chance to review the evidence of BozMo's foul play."
   Civility, disparaging sardonic demeanor.
3. "...involvement has been very disruptive and his enforcements have only gone after one "side""
   Battleground menality.
4. "swan song of an incompetent and dishonest admin to me ... So you join an elite club of abusive admins who act improperly"
   Unwilling to conduct RFC/U, responds with personal attacks
5. "doesn't change the fact that your involvement has been grotesquely biased and damaging."
   See previous.

   Note: Additional Diffs provided in context below. They are numbered.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Forum warning by 2over0 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
2. Name calling warning by 2over0
3. Civility warning by 2over0
4. Civility and bad faith block warning by BozMo (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
5. Probation warning by 2over0

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic Ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Two central issues: (1) willful lack of respect for warnings, and (2) contempt.

1. ChildofMidnight (CoM) has been repeatively warned by both administrators and editors of (1) unproductive discussion, (2) civility, and (3) battleground mentality. Two of these issues, unproductive discussion and civility, were raised on his user talk where he ignored in a sardonic and uncivil manner (discussions linked).6 The third, is a warning logged under this sanction (discussion archived here), which has been ignored. This willful lack of respect represents that warning as a remedy has failed.
2. CoM is in contempt. He responds aggressively. 2over0 has issued the most warnings to CoM under this sanction. He has therefore received the most attacks because of such.7 Because of these attacks, Bozmo has temporarily blocked him. CoM responded aggressively to Bozmo.8 Diffs provided, CoM lacks the respect to resolve discussion in a productive manner.

I am therefore requesting that ChildofMidnight be topic banned. ChyranandChloe (talk) 00:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

Diff provided, also requested unblock so that he may reply. ChyranandChloe (talk) 00:50, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning ChildofMidnight

Statement by ChildofMidnight

This is the worst kind of abusive forum shopping. BozMo's abusive and improper block was undone and I'm being retried on the same B.S.

The first diff and statement are wholly innaccurate. I did not engage in "Unproductive discussion", repeat ad nauseum issues without source and substantial reasons, or engage in WP:FORUM. I made a specific point ONCE about the content and title of our global warming article. I pointed out that it does not include historical context, something that I've now been told has been noted repeatedly, but still hasn't gotten fixed. Anyone who checks Brittanica or dictionaries, will find that we're misrepresenting the subject matter out of any context and ommitting information about how this warming is different in some ways and similar in others to past events. It's quite simply not an article about global warming, it's about recent global warming or anthropogenic global warming.

Most of the other diffs are out of context quotes where I objected to biased and abusive enforcements including a one week block by BozMo that was overturned unanimously as being wholly inappropriate. The reasoning was flawed, there was no discussion, and no warning. Hopefully we won't see any repeat performances from him. Some of his comments about me and defending William also make the block HIGHLY improper.

It also needs to be pointed out that the comments I made pale in comparison to what we've seen here on this very page, and I hope that the block of William indicates that these kind of attacks and disruptions (on this very page) won't be allowed going forward:

• "ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is deliberately misusing this page." "CoM has made similar capricious, clueless and offensive edits just to make a WP:POINT against a perceived opponent. " "CoM should refrain from manufacturing events " "If CoM has nothing sensible to contribute, he should be banned from posting on this page or its talk page. Mathsci (talk) 07:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)"
• "At the moment he is gaming the system and misusing this page. Mathsci (talk) 17:43, 11 February 2010 "
• "Absolutely. Another example of baiting and gaming the enforcement system based on very little knowledge of the facts. I think. --Nigelj (talk) 09:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC) "
• "On the other point there is a difference between calling an editor malicious or an edit malicious. Compare "foolish". I make foolish edits sometimes and would not consider having an edit called foolish a PA. Calling me foolish would be quite another matter (I may be as well but it is a PA to say so). But I do not think this request is other than good faith. People do feel that WMC is offensive sometimes and some of the reason why it keeps coming back as an issue is a sense of frustration which is better aired, up to a point. --BozMo talk 09:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)" I think this quote is tellingly ironic. BozMo defends abusive behavior when it's someone he agrees with and friendly towards, and blocks editors for much less without any warning or discussion when they don't hold opinions he shares. Hypocritical?

• What remains is the same trivial mudracking we've seen before. It's a spurious pile-on request and should be discarded. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

• Calling trolls and POV morons trolls and POV morons isn't incivil, it's the truth. Truth is the ultimate defense to defamation. -- 166.135.160.248

• "..."old fruit" is categorically inoffensive."--BozMo talk 09:19, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

This relates to WMC calling other editors "old fruits". BozMo defended him, but fruit is derogatory slang in the United States to refer to gay people, so it's totally unacceptable on several grounds, especially from someone named William who objects to being called "Will". Even if it has a different meaning in the UK, calling people you disagree with names is inappropriate, and BozMo should cease encouraging that kind of disruptive and antagonistic behavior.

• 2over0 referred to an editors comments as "tendentious and unproductive" - 2/0 (cont.) 20:53, 11 February 2010 (UTC) which is also pretty insulting. Let's try to be more constructive and collegial.

These are all comments from editors aggressively promoting AGW and seeking to censor to anything they disagree with no matter what how well sourced. Sadly, these comments weren't objected to, and instead we've seen a pattern of one-sided enforcements from 2over0, which is what I was objecting to in some of the above diffs. William Connolley was finally block after 7 or so filings and dozens of diffs by at least a dozen different editors, so I hope there is some hope going forward and that we won't see more abusive and disruptive incivility from Mathsci, Tarc, Nigelj, or Stephan Schulz, and that disruptions will be stopped no matter who the editors is engaging in it.

This rehash of a bad block that was already overturned should be closed. We don't need inappropraite and disruptive filings of this sort. Let's focus on content and try to work together collegially with none of the incivility and disruption I've cited above. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:25, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Response from Mathsci

• ChildofMidnight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has written above that I am "aggressively promoting AGW and seeking to censor to anything they disagree with no matter what how well sourced". That is a deliberate and malicious lie. I have never edited a GW article nor have I expressed any view on the subject. I have commented that CoM's editing on this page is highly disruptive and that he is gaming the system. While he gets away with making baseless personal attacks on good faith editors that will continue to be the case. Mathsci (talk) 02:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning ChildofMidnight

STRONG motion to suspend and close this now with prejudice. The editor is under 1 week block and can not defend themselves. This pile on can wait, unless an admin will unblock the editor for this now. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 01:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I've requested an unblock, when CoM able to respond we can resume discussion. ChyranandChloe (talk) 01:37, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Editor is unblocked so no worries in terms of being unable to respond. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:23, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Definitely some problems here, but this whole climate change nexus of articles seems a complete and utter mess, with a number of people behaving badly on both sides. In ChildofMidnight's case, problematic behavior is not limited to one set of articles but has happened in multiple parts of the encyclopedia going back a long time. Rather than a specific request like this, a more general discussion about what to do (which may or may not end up happening here) could be more productive. I'd also just point out that I personally would not want to go anywhere near trying to enforce climate change probation. The editing/enforcement request environment seems to be unbelievably toxic, and the toxicity seems to be coming from folks on both sides, which makes trying to do anything as an admin an extremely unpleasant prospect. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

It's very interesting that you've "dropped in" on the climate change articles. I wasn't aware that you were working on any of them? Instead of engaging in a disruptive soap boxy smear campaign against me, I wonder if you could offer some insights into the actual diffs. What is wrong with my first statement for example, where I point out the distortion of the global warming article so it completely lacks historical context? Have you compared our article to Encyclopedia Brittanica's? Or maybe you can address the other diffs where I object to biased enforcements including a block that overturned unanimously as being inappropriate?

Frankly Bigtimepeace there are enough disruption and dispute without you coming here to see if you can rehash old conflicts and inflame new ones. Kindly remove your comments (and this one along with it) and start keeping your promise to stop seeking conflict with me. Hounding editors to seek out conflict is unacceptable. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Not so interesting, obviously I came here via the conversation at the administrator's noticeboard. I'm not advocating for anything to happen to you here, and indeed am suggesting that this specific request probably is not the right way to go. I'd be happy if it was closed down with no action and conversation continued at WP:AN, which is the only reason I posted here. There's no hounding or smearing or anything like that on my part, but you won't be troubled by any further posts from me here. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:46, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

This is one of the irretrievably compromised editors I had in mind in my "Triage" suggestion on the talk page. He has added little of value and on the downside his presence editing in the area is toxic because of his unacceptable and inflammatory conduct.

In my view it is imperative to the health of Misplaced Pages's coverage of the issue that he and editors with a similar pattern of editing as warfare be excluded as quickly as possible. I suggest a ban from all content and discussions related to climate change, broadly construed. A long ban would be best, because his responses suggest that he has absolutely no intention of adapting his behavior to concerns expressed by other editors. --TS 10:05, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Further, those wondering whether Child of Midnight's tone here is an anomaly in a career of otherwise unblemished and exemplary interaction should look at this:

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/ChildofMidnight

From the summary, written just over three weeks ago by closing administrator User:Nihonjoe:

The main areas of concern are that CoM:

• Has regular and ongoing problem with making accusations against other editors (specifically and in general) without providing any supporting evidence
• Has failed to follow proper dispute resolution steps in almost all (if not all) cases
• Is apparently unwilling to accept any constructive criticism or suggestions provided in good faith by multiple editors who tried to help for at least the last six months
• Is very often contributing to discussions in an unhelpful and/or irrelevant manner

And this is very much the way ChildofMidnight's problematic behavior has presented to us here in the past few weeks. The fact that the summary mentions his failure "to accept any constructive criticism or suggestions provided in good faith by multiple editors who tried to help for at least the last six months" (my emphasis) underlines the fact that he is not prepared to change his ways. This editor's presence in the climate change area of editing is an active danger to the chances of de-escalating hostility and restoring a collegial editing environment. --TS 11:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment -

• The first diff is an unobjectionable on-topic remark. One diff by definition can not support a charge of tendentious editing.
• (2),(3) and (5) are unactionable. Comments about the actions of others, including admins, do not run afoul of any policy I am aware of.
• (4) is personal attacks directed at an individual. Given the fact CoM was blocked under questionable circumstances at the time, no warnings re the remark were issued, and the editor to whom the remarks was directed raised no objections, CoM should perhaps be asked to refactor.

I suggest this action be closed with a strong suggestion to CoM that he switch to decaf. JPatterson (talk) 17:00, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I concur. While I find CoM's style unhelpful at times, a topic ban is serious overkill.--SPhilbrickT 18:49, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I refactored #4. It's been a very frustrating experience and, unfortunately, it continues. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with JPatterson and Sphilbrick, and I'm glad to hear #4 was refactored. Comments made immediately after being blocked are commonly discounted. And yes, switch to decaf. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:44, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Due Process

Response to uninvolved admins

@BozMo, where you say: "There is clearly a pattern of strong language incivility and abuse, much of it violently rejecting anyone who attempts to rein him in a little, with occasional spells of sweetness. It is going to be hard to improve the atmosphere with someone who behaves like this. I think we have reached a point where there is enough grounds for a topic ban." I am having difficulty distinguishing if you are talking about WMC and/or COM, as this may apply to both. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion on this is noted, but not really relevant here. --BozMo talk 20:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess not when ignoring credibility. Best to clear this up, or restore credibility somewhere else. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

@2/0, yet to close. The editor is under complaint at arbcom now, having two open at once can not be fair to all involved. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning ChildofMidnight

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I have hesitated about contributing here because although I am uninvolved, I was attacked when I blocked him but I have limited wiki time so I thought I would comment now. In part I will give a view, which probation definitions allow here because I am sufficiently concerned about the possibility that CoM is deliberately attacking admins to try to make them become involved. (1) I had a look at CoM after I requested WMC give an explanation for calling him "malicious" . There is clearly a pattern of strong language incivility and abuse, much of it violently rejecting anyone who attempts to rein him in a little, with occasional spells of sweetness. It is going to be hard to improve the atmosphere with someone who behaves like this. I think we have reached a point where there is enough grounds for a topic ban. As an aside Ref his edit the claim that there is forum shopping or that he has been in anyway found innocent, or that my block was found unfair is not correct "Beeblebrox (talk | contribs | block) unblocked "ChildofMidnight (talk | contribs)" ‎ (to allow him to participate in ArbCom case related to his actions)" here.(2) However at risk of stating the obvious I would like to be entirely clear to other uninvolved admins that it isn't personal for me and any outcome which is good for Misplaced Pages would be great. --BozMo talk 08:13, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for my failure to fully state the reasons for the unblock in the log. Allowing participation here was a secondary concern, the primary reason was in fact that there was consensus at WP:AN that this block was not merited. This is not me saying it wasn't merited, just my actions based on the results of that conversation. I was perhaps overzealous in trying to convince CoM to take this process seriously, and failed to record both reasons in the block log, an oversight which has now been corrected. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I will comment on this elsewhere but the clarification was helpful. --BozMo talk 07:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

As much the same issues were discussed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Unblock review request and are now at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#ChildofMidnight, and ChildofMidnight has indicated that they are taking a short wikibreak, I move to close this request with no action but no prejudice to opening a similar thread should similar edits continue. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Closing risks CoM claiming it as a victory, which isn't a huge problem but perhaps it is possible to "suspend" rather than close. The Arbcom case is not looking specifically at the Climate Change area. If you don't reckon that works I support close as a second choice. --BozMo talk 20:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)