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Non-Muslim Pashtuns

Around the time of Mahmud Ghaznavi, a large number of Pashtuns or Afghans self-identified as Hindus as discussed in books like Hudud al-'Alam. Therefore, we should not be surprised if some modern-day Pashtuns self-identify as Hindus (in places like Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan). There was no magic stick which converted 100% of Pashtuns to Islam. Not only that, but there are also some Sikh Pashtuns in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (including Tirah and Swat). If we can find a reliable source, we can also add Sikh religion to infobox. Thanks, Khestwol (talk) 15:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

This article talks about Pashtun Sikhs in Nankana Sahib, Punjab, Pakistan. “We are Pashtuns, our forefathers and our next generations all will remain wedded to Pashtunwali. Even our relatives who’ve migrated to Delhi take pride in being called Pashtun Sikhs, and many others who’ve kept Pashto alive in faraway lands. It’s a matter of pride for them when they tell others where they’ve come from. The Pashtun aura has a mystical charm to it,” said a beaming Sardar Rajan Singh. Like other Pashtuns displaced from their homes and ancestral places, the Pashtun Sikhs have been successful in keeping the basic foundation and ethos of their cultural and tradition intact. Detached from their source of origins they cherish and live every moment that connects them to their region. Also note this article published in Dawn, which mentions one of the Pashtun Afridi tribesmen from Tirah who practice Sikhism. Khestwol (talk) 15:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear User:Khestwol, Thank your info. your WP:ORIGINAL argument that Pashtun ancestors had a religion so this religion has to exist still is your own opinion we could say Buddhist and Zoroastrians exist now too so try to avoid own research. We discussed that the Sikhs and Hindus that live in Afghanistan and Pashtunkhwa indeed identify themselves as "Afghan Hindus" or "Pashtun Hindus" due to the fact they are native in Pashto (or Dari) and embrace the culture. secondly, Your own source confirms that: Let me quote: We’ve lived alongside our Pashtun brothers since we first settled in the tribal region and other parts of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in 1872, just like Sardar Rajan Singh said, we became part of their social fabric, we fostered friendships, setup businesses and even were given the right participate in the decision making process. We lived as neighbors alongside our Pashtun brothers and according to Pashtunwali, a Pashtun is responsible for the well-being of his neighbour, he is his protector and representative. This then begs the question that how can the same people who gave us our identity turn their backs on us?” This is just your own source that you provided so your own source refutes your argument. They came in the 18th-19th century and got the Pashtun identity, that's just their own words not mine. like Uanfala said here Language/culture adaption≠ ethnicity. Please provide an ethnographic source (WP:Cherrypicking) that will support the WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim otherwise like user EL_C stated it will be tendentious editing. btw Sikhs/Hindus are already in the "Religion section separately mentioned as Uanfala consensus proposal. If you can provide an ethnographic source then be my guest &change the infobox For now your own source refutes your argument.Casperti (talk) 16:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing this information User:Khestwol. I agree that this important content should be restored. I will restore the information about Hindu Pashtuns, as well as Sikh Pashtuns, along with the sources that were previously in the article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam 17:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

First of all User:Anupam user Khestwol's source refuted its own claim. They are identifying as Pashtuns due to assimilation they migrated to those areas in 1872. Like I quoted here above from their own source. second of all, we have already a consensus here Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 20#Disputed source Solved along with admins and other users. Do not ignore the consensus out there or just provide an ethnographic source for the claim. I hope this helps. Thanks Casperti (talk) 17:45, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear Casperti, I think the sources are enough and reliable. At present, there are people who self-identify as Pashtuns, practice Hinduism/Sikhism, follow Pashtun culture, and that is what matters here. Dear Anupam, thanks for the additions to infobox. Khestwol (talk) 18:24, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Again your own source is against your claim?? Why are you ignoring the quote I gave you from your own source? This is really WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. Besides, you are ignoring the consensus of this matter where non-party users commented on.Casperti (talk) 18:39, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear Casperti, now that new sources have been provided (for Sikh Pashtuns), you seem to be the only one to want to omit Sikhism and Hinduism from the article. Please keep in mind that neither me nor you are an authority to issue certificates as to who is a Pashtun and who is a non-Pashtun (that will be WP:OR). Don't you agree? What we can do is simply to use reliable secondary references and that is what me and Anupam did. Thanks, Khestwol (talk) 19:19, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear Khestwol, there is already a consensus about this here Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 20#Disputed source Solved, which it seems you are avoiding by purpose. About your comment, neither are you the person who can decide who is Pashtun or who not... That is just upto experts from a reliable source (Ethnographic sources) and none of them mentions these two religions. There is no single source out there that mentions them this is just Original research from your side and Anupam's. see Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 20#Disputed source Solved you are ignoring this page see all comments of all people out there. For your Tirah people here . Again you are working against a clear consensus. Just provide an ethnographic source. Not much is asked! Casperti (talk) 21:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Casperti, I read the article you provided from Samaa TV. Nowhere does it say that Pashtun Sikhs are non-Pashtuns, does it? To assert that they are non-Pashtuns is WP:OR. As for Zoroastrian and Buddhist Pashtuns, you will need to find reliable sources before adding it. Khestwol (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

wow ignoring is a fact now. First of all your own source says they migrated from ancestral Punjab to Pashtunkhwa in 1871 second of all my Samaa source literally is called “ How the Sikhs settled in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa” they literally are saying how they became Pashto speakers “....and then sikhs became fluent in Pashto”. This is just tendentious editing from you..... And again you (and maybe friends) are ignoring the consensus of last year. + I see that the opinion of an IP bystander is deleted by Aman.Kumar.GoelCasperti (talk) 03:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I do not know about the year 1871. But what I do know is that the Pashtun Sikhs are now fully part of different Pashtun tribes. Also, Sikhism is a relatively new religion so we cannot expect to see Sikhism in Pashtunkhwa before the 18th century, when it was not even formalized. According to History of Sikhism, the religion was formalised on 13 April 1699. Khestwol (talk) 03:58, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Khestwol do you care to explain the difference between 'Ethnic Pashtuns' and those who have over the years 'become part of different tribes'? Sikhs may speak Pashto, practice Pashtunwali, may even get representation in local Jirga system, and get accepted as 'fellow tribesmen' by actual Pashtun tribesmen, but are they Pashtun by ethnicity? I suppose there needs to be a reasonable discussion by neutral editors on this issue; apparently it seems to me that User:Anupam and you are pushing your personal opinion here. User:Casperti also seems to ask the same question: are ethnic Pashtuns and those culturally & linguistically Pashtun the same? It should be left to more neutral editors to provide their consensus. Each of you appear to have involved your egos into this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.245.9.44 (talk) 04:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

My bad it is the year 1872 btw it is your own source that says it not me. What you think it should be considered is personal opinion or WP:OR. Facts are; they migrated 18th-19th century and learned to be Pashtun like your own source points out so what you on about? The IP address here above seems reasonable and has a good idea. But I have to point out that there was already a discussion about this at the top of the Talk page but nevertheless its a good idea we should ask for neutral third opinions. Casperti (talk) 04:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Btw this recent edit is a very good one: made by user:Eliko007. The user is using an ethnographic source. That mentions the small Christian minority in addition the Shias-Sunnis. This is exactly what I mean. This is good. Casperti (talk) 01:21, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Khestowl's source is not reliable, all Pashtuns are 100% Muslims. Akmal94 (talk) 01:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I read through most of the arguments above. The following are my observations:

-There is no doubt that some converted to Christianity (mostly during British rule, but some after independence)

Regarding Sikh Pashtuns - the sources listed above do not make a good distinction between those who self-identify as Pashtun, and those who are considered Pashtun by ethnicity. Its reasonable to assume that some Pashtun probably converted to Sikhism, although it seems the Sikhs living in KPK mountains may be Punjabis who moved to the region and just assimilated. According to the source above, the Sikhs moved there in 1872 and simply assimilated (although, did they? Islam is a huge part of being Pashtun) but that doesn't make them Pashtun. I think the argument made above that they are "now Pashtun" isn't particularly convincing - living in proximity and assimilating doesn't mean your past ethnicity is simply washed away. I can be Russian living in Uzbekistan for generations, but that doesn't make me Uzbek even if I call myself Uzbek and speak Uzbek perfectly and am Uzbek in every other sense. Even if I convert to Islam (and these Sikhs didn't convert), I still would be Russian. In short, I think some Pashtuns probably became Sikhs, but the Sikhs listed in the sources are Punjabi migrants from 1872.

Regarding Hindu Pashtuns, there are a few issues. Unlike Sikhism, Hinduism doesn't seek converts, so Pashtuns becoming Hindu is extremely rare. The sole exception would be some Pashtuns who joined something like ISKCON. Otherwise, we are left with two possibilities. The first is that some Pashtuns remained wedded to their pre-Islamic religion, and that religion was Hinduism. Both of those conditions are not true, and I wonder if some people are making the claim to suggest that Pashtuns are originally Hindus? Second, the same issue as above arises - that some Hindus self-identify as Pashtuns, but that doesn't necessarily make them Pashtun. There is an interesting corollary in villages near Peshawar that many Hindko speakers call themselves Pashtun, but Pashtuns do not consider them Pashtun.

The second problem with the Hindu Pashtun claim is that the article is using journalists as reliable sources, such as Suhasini Haidar. Mrs Haidar is a reliable source as a journalist - we can trust her to report that there are some Hindus who are referring to themselves as Pashtun. She is not an ethnographer, and so her report should not be taken to mean that these Hindus are indeed Pashtun. The exact same problem arises with the ArabNews source with Mr Khan. As for Tariq Ali, he's a political historian, not an ethnographer - and in any case, all he does is quote some friends who spoke of Hindu and Sikh Pashtuns. Who are these friends? Are they reliable sources?Alishernavoi (talk) 04:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Nice theories. Is there any source that backs them?

Are you sure that only ethnographers are reliable sources for this artcile? I just checked through the reflist, and it seemed that if we remove all information not coming from an ethnographer then we would have less than three sentences left. So, please, be very sure before you say yes. Otherwise you might have no article on Pashtuns to discuss about.

Or maybe a source is not reliable until it says Pashtuns are 100% Muslims. Is that so?

According to this article Pashtun history begins 50,000 years back. Were they all Muslims back at that time? If not, then what happened to Pashtuns who were not Muslims? Every last one of them converted to Islam?

You raise some pretty interesting questions. Aditya 18:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Not sure about the Hindus, however the Sikh part is complete none sense, the sources themselves state the Sikhs to be Punjabi’s and that’s also the language the Sikhs in KPK and Afghanistan speak, also Sikhism was created in the 15th century, so the beautiful idea of remaining “unconverted” people isn’t valid here. From the source that’s being used: “We’ve lived alongside our Pashtun brothers since we first settled in the tribal region and other parts of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in 1872, just like Sardar Rajan Singh said, we became part of their social fabric, we fostered friendships, setup businesses and even were given the right participate in the decision making process. We lived as neighbors alongside our Pashtun brothers and according to Pashtunwali, a Pashtun is responsible for the well-being of his neighbour, he is his protector and representative. Xerxes931 (talk) 11:10, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

"From the source that’s being used"... is there just one source being used? Aditya 20:30, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

I also has to remove a section about the "sheen khal indian pashtun who migrated to india. It only came from one source and the its shows an eledery lady with sheen khal on her face. However there is greater chance than people adoptinf that then pashtuns practicing hinduism which is inevident in pashtun history. Plus she could have been from the ancient gandharan civilistation of such. Who knows Pashtunfacts (talk) 17:53, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Genetics Section

I had written earlier and once again mentioning that the genetics Section needs to be reviewed as it seems to be written by someone who doesn't understand genetics very well. The reason is because YDNA study is misconstrued for representing overall genetic make up of pashtuns instead of an autosomal study. Secondly L20 halogroup is claimed to be of Indian origin whereas its distributed well over Eurasia and most researchers associate it with neolithic expansion of either ancient iranic or anatolian farmers into subcontinent. Moreover the subclad L20 present in higher frequencies among pashtuns is shared with Burusho & Kalash and is distinct from that present in higher frequencies in other Indian and Pakistani ethnic groups. Sharjeel.k126 (talk) 20:04, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Genetics section has been updatedAfghan1777 (talk) 07:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)Afghan1777

honor

if we talk about Pashtuns they are licked to Aryans

Increase Protection Request

Please increase protection for this page to only referenced information. PashtoAdder4 (talk) 04:53, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

We will Clean this Page up ( other request)

Salaam ! Halakas. Im not sure who runs this page actively if your pashtun or not however

- Ive re read this wiki page multiple times only to find unrelaibe unsourced info. And half the information here is just unescessary and goes into to much detail for example the genetics and someone on the women section claiming a pashtun tradition is "childmarriage" etc which i had to remove as it also provided no sourced

- add images. The images on this wiki apprently of "pashtuns" look pretty daunting but inshallah if possible we will add more which shows our culture and people more clearly

- more historical information need and images as well such as the durrani flag etc. And pashtuns in history. Pashtunfacts (talk) 17:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism Poor Source and Overestimation

This page should be more protected User 7373830 (talk) 12:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Please stop changing population statistics on multiple articles without providing a verifiable reliable source as a reference citation. You have also changed stats in front of existing citations which misrepresents the citations. I'm hoping to get your attention here in case you check this article talk page, as there has been no response at your user talk. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 20:24, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Origin part

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1i9GhAfBmCHzgb_EqrwFbGOoFo91wjmAVJfZIRr9gJ24/mobilebasic

I've shared this paper with you and keeping in this mind the pashtun origin part should be updated. Ozgharzai (talk) 17:41, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I suggested updating the origin part based on the above mentioned paper but still no response.Ozgharzai (talk) 20:25, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Linguistic origin

A section has recently been added on the classification and history of Pashto. I don't know the literature on the subject, but it seems that the additions rely too much on the Encyclopedia Iranica article. Surely, the field must have advanced since the time when its author, Georg Morgenstierne, made those preliminary observations? – Uanfala (talk) 20:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Morgentrienes works are still pretty much up to date, furthermore Encyclopedia Iranica is one of the most, if not the most authentic sources we have on Iranic historic and linguistics. Having said this there are also other sources used in the section like the work of Cheung which is from 2007 and also still in line with most of what Morgenstierne stated. However if your concerned too much I will add more recent works and sources on a regular basis to the article. You’ve reverted my category adding to the Pashto article as well, the north-eastern categorization is actually not even disputed, I am gonna add another source here on the article from 2009 and revert you on that Xerxes931 (talk) 00:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Do these sources put Pashto specifically into the Northeastern subgroup? I thought it was commonly assumed to be in the Southeastern branch (see for example the introduction of this paper). On a side note, when reverting it will be helpful if you only revert edits you disagree with and don't also revert in the process edits you don't disagree with. – Uanfala (talk) 01:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I apologize for reverting the other things as well, I will fix that tomorrow. The Southeastern category is the Ormuri-Parachi group which Pashto does not fall into.Pashto is rather related to languages from the Pamir family who fall into the northeastern categoryXerxes931 (talk) 02:18, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, in the traditional classification I know of, the Pamir languages and Ormuri are also members of the Southeastern branch. At any rate, I don't think that even the very idea of north and south sub-branches of Eastern Iranian is widely accepted, so it may probably be best if mention of them is left out altogether. Any discussion of debates about the classification of Pashto, if there have been actual ones, probably belong on the language article anyway. – Uanfala (talk) 02:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Most of the Pamir languages usually fall into the Northeastern category, but that’s another topic for itself. The linguistic origin is important here because those theory’s and analyzes evolve around The original Pashto-Speakers or Middle/Old-Pashto speakers, or in other words the origins of the first Pashtuns, the different tribes may all have different origins, however there was one group who brought the Pashto language with them from north of the Oxus who were thus the original or first Pashtuns, that’s why the linguistic origin is an important aspect in an article about the Pashtuns in general, especially when it’s a section about their origin. Xerxes931 (talk) 03:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

User: Uanfala do you mind discussing this instead of edit-warring on the Pashto article? Can you show me any authentic linguist ( not some hobby bloggers) who describe Pashto as a south eastern Iranian language and are explicitly not talking about geography? You can at least put in the broader category of Eastern Iranian languages as it’s not included. Xerxes931 (talk) 13:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

One paper I've linked above. You can also see Mahmoodi-Bakhtiari and Payne's chapter on Iranian in Comrie's volume (the same one with MacKenzie's Pashto chapter, which has, correctly, been cited here as supporting NE). – Uanfala (talk) 14:23, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I think we need a thorough survey of exisiting subgrouping proposals, in order to see which can be used in infoboxes and categories. The minimal threshold should be wide scholarly consensus, and not just the authority of a single source, however high its reputation may be. But frankly, I find the fact confusing that Korn (who proposes a novel classification) portrays Pashto being a SE Iranian as the "traditional" view, when quite many sources describe it as a NE Iranian language: apart from Morgenstierne in the EI and MacKenzie in Comrie's The World's Major Languages, there is also Daniel Septfonds's "Pashto" chapter in the Elsevier Concise Encyclopaedia of Languages of the World ("From a strictly genetic point of view, Pashto, an Indo–European language, belongs to the northeastern group of Iranian languages").

While I am sympathetic to renegade approaches in historical-comparative linguistics, we should apply them with care here, in order not to fall for recentism. Novel hypotheses should receive due mention in prose, but nothing more than that. I have edited hundreds of pages to remove a classification proposal which I had published some 20 yrs ago from infoboxes, templates and categories because—for reasons I've never understood—it was given undue weight here in Misplaced Pages. –Austronesier (talk) 16:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, Korn herself notes the wide divergences between the various definitions of NE and SE Iranian. Wendtland, for example, also has a paragraph or two about that . – Uanfala (talk) 17:13, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Plus there's Windfuhr who splits the traditional Eastern languages into "East Iranian" (Pashto, Pamir lgs and others), "Southeast Iranian" (Parachi-Ormuri) and "North Iranian" (Yaghnobi, Ossetic). That's why I think a survey would be interesting, and maybe we could do something similar in Iranian languages as AryamanA has done in Indo-Aryan languages. –Austronesier (talk) 20:17, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The wikipedia page states "historically known as Afghans, are an Iranian ethnic group native to Central and South Asia. The native language of the Pashtuns is Pashto, an Iranian language on the Indo-Iranian branch."

The statement is somewhat of an oxymoron, where it is not only inaccurate through its explanation, the overall statement is incorrect, and the source referenced does not infer this point. Furthermore, the statement and the source incorrectly reference Iranian and Indo-Iranian relation to Afghanistan and Pashtuns. Pashtuns are very specific to the Afghanistan and Pakistan border and is in no way, shape, or form related to Iranian or Indo-Iranian. It is actually related to an ethnic group in Afghanistan. A simple source to confirm this is https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pashtun where they state "Pashto-speaking people residing primarily in the region that lies between the Hindu Kush in northeastern Afghanistan and the northern stretch of the Indus River in Pakistan."

Therefore change: "historically known as Afghans, are an Iranian ethnic group native to Central and South Asia. The native language of the Pashtuns is Pashto, an Iranian language on the Indo-Iranian branch." to "historically known as Afghans, they are the ethnic group of the Afghanistan and Pakistan, and native to Central and South Asia. The native language of the Pashtuns is Pashto, the national language of Afghanistan and also spoken in the two largest provinces of Pakistan, including Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Baluchistan."

The source for this change is https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0238423

ALSO

The page says "The vast majority of Pashtuns in Afghanistan speak Persian as a second language".

This is absolutely false because "Persian" is not a language, and the source is an opinion article that is not factual or constructed in a historically, and linguistically coherent manner. Additionally, its random and irrelevant to Pashtun and Pashto. The source is not credible to say the least. Persian is a term for the people of Iran. Persians speak the Farsi language, which is very specific to Iran. Sources to confirm this are: https://web.archive.org/web/20120203093100/https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/cs/profiles/Iran.pdf

Pashtun people speak Pashtu and its very specific to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Has nothing to do with Persian, Iranian, or Indo-Iranian. The original statement is geographically and linguistically inaccurate. And it doesnt make sense that the post is beginning to talk about a "second language" without addressing their primary language first, or at all. Pashtun people speak Pashtu. Some may speak Dari as their second language. Not Persian. The source to prove this is https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0238423

So change "The vast majority of Pashtuns in Afghanistan speak Persian as a second language" to "The vast majority of Pashtuns in Afghanistan speak Pashtu as their primary language." Mnesvade (talk) 04:02, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: The changes are not supported by the sources given (including "PHND: Pashtu Handwritten Numerals Database and deep learning benchmark", a rather odd choice for looking up basic information about Pashto). 1) The classification of Pashto as an Iranian language in the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European languages is universally accepted in mainstream scholarship and also reflected in the article "Pashto language" in Encyclopædia Britannica. The source "PHND..." does not contradict this, but simply does not mention it, because it's topic is not language classification. 2) Persian (endonym Farsi) is a language, not to say so again is in completely contradiction to mainstream scholarship. Dari is the Afghan variant of Persian. Again, refer to "Persian language" in Encyclopædia Britannica. 3) It is incorrect that the article begins to talk about a "second language" without addressing their primary language first. The second paragraph begins with "The native language of the Pashtuns is Pashto", only the next sentence mentions the second language. –Austronesier (talk) 16:10, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

A Question of Zoroastrians

There appears to be a series of edits adding and then deleting edits about Zoroastrians; i have no opinion on the appropriateness of the edit, but i strongly believe that we should be discussing rather than pushing back and forth. To that end, i'm pinging the editors whom i have seen doing this most recently and asking that we discuss it here. Thanks. PashtoPromoter, PashtoAdder4, Xerxes931; happy days, Lindsay 18:04, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

PashtoPromoter and PashtoAdder4 clearly seem to be sock puppets of each other, this issue needs to get adressed--Xerxes931 (talk) 21:59, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes that was my account but i lost my password and when i did i created this account. I dont use that account anymore. PashtoPromoter (talk) 12:13, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

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