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:::::::::::::::::::::::{{u|Binksternet}}—we go by reliable sources. Einstein was Jewish. Not because I say so. But because ] supports that . All sources support that Einstein was Jewish. No source supports that Einstein was not Jewish. ] (]) 17:08, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::{{u|Binksternet}}—we go by reliable sources. Einstein was Jewish. Not because I say so. But because ] supports that . All sources support that Einstein was Jewish. No source supports that Einstein was not Jewish. ] (]) 17:08, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::Have you noticed you are the only one here views Jewishness as a 1-bit datum? That someone is either a Jew or not a Jew? It's more complicated than that, which is why everybody keeps saying no to your questions and proposals. Give it a rest. ] (]) 17:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::Have you noticed you are the only one here views Jewishness as a 1-bit datum? That someone is either a Jew or not a Jew? It's more complicated than that, which is why everybody keeps saying no to your questions and proposals. Give it a rest. ] (]) 17:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::::"I won Jewish comedian of the year, my mum was judging, then again, she always does." ] (]) 17:49, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::{{u|Attic Salt}}—why are you 5 seconds after I make an edit? Isn't this a collaborative project and don't you believe in using this Talk page? ] (]) 17:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::{{u|Attic Salt}}—why are you 5 seconds after I make an edit? Isn't this a collaborative project and don't you believe in using this Talk page? ] (]) 17:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
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Put Paragraphs in Chronological Order
From:-
In 1894, then 15,
Einstein always excelled at math and physics from a young age, 12.
At age 13,
In 1895, at the age of 16
To:-
Einstein always excelled at math and physics from a young age, 12.
At age 13,
In 1894, then 15,
In 1895, at the age of 16 194.207.86.26 (talk) 14:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Einstein's PhD specialty
This is not intended as an edit but as a suggestion to the article's author(s). Please include Einstein's PhD field in those areas dealing with his education. For example, PhD Physics, or Math, etc. Thank you.38.124.147.11 (talk) 22:14, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
RCraig09—you are removing relevant information that is supported by at least one good quality source. Furthermore the information I added is properly placed in the article as it is in the "Early life" section after Albert Einstein's date of birth and place of birth. Your edit summary is saying "The fact that Einstein was Jewish is set forth in the ensuing paragraph". If that is the case then please remove or whittle back such material from the "ensuing paragraph".
As a target of anti-Semitism in Germany and abroad between the World Wars, the Jewish scientist was well aware of the harm that discrimination inflicts, and sought to use his platform to speak out against the mistreatment of others.
While he never fully endorsed the Zionist cause, he spoke frequently of his Jewish identity and used his fame to help raise money for the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, making him a very public face not just of science but of Jewishness.
"Being a Jew myself, perhaps I can understand and empathize with how black people feel as victims of discrimination".
And he knew from his experiences as a Jewish scientist in Germany how easily that freedom could be destroyed in the name of nationalism and patriotism.
(I have added the highlighting in the above excerpts from the source that I am using in support of my edit.)
There are actually other references to his Jewishness in the source article. Therefore this is well-sourced and relevant. And it is properly placed. That he was Jewish is most appropriately stated in the "Early life" section after where and when he was born, as I have done in this edit. My single edit obviously does not constitute an entire re-writing of the article as it is only one single edit but if you feel that other adjustments need to be made such as material pared back, I hope you will work on that. Thank you. Bus stop (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
@Bus stop: The objection is that the content is specifically recited and expounded on in the very next paragraph. Your addition adds nothing to the article.
Further, under WP:BRD, my reversion was the second step ("R"), and your next step should have been the third step "D" of discussing on the talk page rather than reverting my reversion, to avoid WP:EDITWARs. —RCraig09 (talk) 22:39, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
It's much better to say he was born into a Jewish family as sourced in the ensuing paragraph (the ensuing paragraph starting with "The Einsteins were non-observant Ashkenazi Jews, ..."), rather than Bus Stop's bluntly saying "he was Jewish". However, to state it either way in the first paragraph adds nothing to the article, since it'a already in the second paragraph of the section. I won't argue the issue further. Adios. —RCraig09 (talk) 05:47, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
RCraig09—of course you can write in the article that Einstein was "born into a Jewish family". I have no objection. That would be a separate and different assertion. It is not the same as "Einstein was Jewish." We are permitted to state the identities of the subjects of biographical articles if those identities are reliably sourced, which is clearly the case in this instance. What do you think it means when Einstein is quoted as saying "Being a Jew myself..." or a reliable source refers to him as "a Jewish scientist in Germany"? I am making an appropriate edit and you are inappropriately reverting reliably sourced and relevant content. Bus stop (talk) 07:00, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
For the third time: the material was already in the article one inch further down; I acquiesced because Watchlonly's wording makes the repeated content read more accurately in context at that point.
It is proper to delete material that is cumulative or repetitive, as I have now thrice stated here plus in my original edit comment for the article. If this were not the case, we might well write "Einstein was born to Jewish parents, making Einstein Jewish, so that he was a Jew,—in effect a Jewish-born Jewish Jew." Sourcing isn't the issue. Au revoir. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:44, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
I agree with RCraig09, here. But if we want to add a citation, add it to the section that already discusses Einstein's Jewishness. Thanks. Attic Salt (talk) 18:11, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
You say "Sourcing isn't the issue." Sourcing is the issue, RCraig09. Sourcing is always the issue at Misplaced Pages. I am not objecting to you writing that he was "born into a Jewish family". You are objecting to my writing that Einstein was a Jew, despite considerable support in sources for Einstein being a Jew:
"He had been a refugee from Germany since 1933, and had spent the past 20 years living in Princeton, New Jersey, where he was now a U.S. citizen. But he was still the most famous Jew in the world."
"Is any name more synonymous with Jewish genius than Albert Einstein?"
"He recoiled from Orthodox Judaism, but he felt a deep kinship with the Jewish people."
"a revolutionary and outspoken Jewish scientist, a pacifist and an internationalist"
"Einstein still felt held back as a Jew"
"Einstein did not try to assimilate like other German Jews"
The above quotes are from The Jewish Daily Forward, found here. Please feel free to say in our Misplaced Pages article that Einstein was "born into a Jewish family". I am not objecting to that. You are objecting to a simple statement of fact, reliably sourced, and on-topic, that Einstein was Jewish. The question here concerns what you are objecting to. The subject of the biography was a Jew. That is a defining feature of his life. We are permitted to state in Misplaced Pages biographies that people are/were Jews. We are even permitted to do so "bluntly". Concerning Einstein—he didn't to any degree hide the fact that he was a Jew. He is not known to have ever endeavored to make less conspicuous the fact that he was Jewish. Virtually all of his statements are in the affirmative concerning his Jewish identity. This is found in many sources, not just the two cited above, one of which is Jewish-associated, but the the other of which—the Smithsonian Institution-associated source—is entirely secular. The Smithsonian is a "trust instrumentality of the United States". You refer to "Bus Stop's bluntly saying 'he was Jewish'". Of course I am bluntly saying that Einstein was Jewish. We are engaged in the writing of a realistic biography of Einstein. It can be "bluntly" stated that Einstein was Jewish. Misplaced Pages has that capacity. Why shouldn't we "bluntly" say that Einstein was Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 19:33, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
If you think Linda McCartneywas Jewish and/or you think Paul McCartney was the Jewish Beatle, I wish you luck in adding those descriptions to the respective articles. I won't be collaborating with you, or anyone else, on those additions, thanks. If you think any "media organization for a Jewish-American audience" is going to necessarily provide you with the best source material for Einstein, well maybe you'll be lucky. They employ all sorts of authors, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Martinevans123—do you happen to have a source that might cast doubt on Einstein being Jewish? If so, please present it here. Please tell me why you consider The Forward to be "not the most impartial of sources"? Can you present a source suggesting that Einstein might not be Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 01:53, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm finding the behaviour of Bus stop to be offensive. I think he/she should stop this exchange. Attic Salt (talk) 16:36, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Now I suggest that everyone cool it. This is a slippery slope. Attic Salt (talk) 16:41, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
That isn't what is upsetting me. I also support reliable sources. You seem, however, to be trying to drive in a wedge, suggesting that an editor might not think Einstein was Jewish. You need to stop that. Attic Salt (talk) 17:56, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Oh well, never mind. Rather than looking to an "American news media organization for a Jewish-American audience. Founded in 1897 as a Yiddish-language daily socialist newspaper", I was wondering what Einstein himself might have said about his religion or his ethnic heritage. You'll be interested to know he said this in 1921: "If relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss will call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German and the Germans will call me a Jew." Quite funny really. But then he did also say this, in 1920: "I am neither a German citizen nor do I believe in anything that can be described as a "Jewish faith." But I am a Jew and glad to belong to the Jewish people, though I do not regard it in any way as chosen."Martinevans123 (talk) 22:19, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Martinevans123—you are quoting Einstein saying that he is a Jew: "But I am a Jew and glad to belong to the Jewish people, though I do not regard it in any way as chosen." (I added the bolding.) Bus stop (talk) 23:10, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you Martinevans123, and the quote that you mention, "But I am a Jew and glad to belong to the Jewish people, though I do not regard it in any way as chosen", seems to be found in several sources. Therefore I think we can proceed to assert in the article that Einstein was Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 16:02, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I guess so, He's already stuffed into four different "Jew Categories". But I find the existing quote in the article, from a German-language letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, dated 3 January 1954, to be slightly more enlightening:
"For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. ... I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."
Yes, another good source: "He spent his last years promoting the concept of world government to prevent war and, as a result, was under scrutiny by the FBI, which had a file of 1,427 pages on him. He declared that he was not a German but “a Jew by nationality” and compared himself to Cervantes’s Don Quixote, because he resembled the great character of the novel in his tilting at windmills. ... Einstein considered his relationship with the Jewish people “my strongest human tie once I achieved complete clarity about our precarious position among the nations of the world.” The Israeli diplomat Abba Eban met with Einstein in 1955. Einstein told him that he saw the establishment of the State of Israel as one of the few political acts in his lifetime that had a moral quality."Martinevans123 (talk) 17:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
"He was offered a professorship in 1909 at the University of Zurich, but there were strong reservations because of his Judaism. A letter from the faculty mentioned that Einstein did not exhibit any of the usual Jewish characteristics — 'all kinds of unpleasant peculiarities of character, such as intrusiveness, impudence, and a shopkeeper’s mentality in the perception of their academic position'." What is a "shopkeeper’s mentality in the perception of their academic position"? (I'm not expecting you to know the answer.) Bus stop (talk) 17:59, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I would say this is important, vis-à-vis him being a scientist: "If Einstein could not accept organized religion or believe in a personal God who intervened in history, he did consider himself religious in one sense: 'Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible, and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion' ... Clearly, study of the universe inspired in him a sense of awe and wonder." Bus stop (talk) 18:15, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
It's too much emphasis because there are the several meanings of Jewish including religion, race and culture, and Einstein emphatically did not practice the Jewish religion. He did not celebrate a bar mitzvah and he did not engage in any other religious ritual. He felt connected to the Jewish culture, and of course his genes came from Jewish lines. If we state baldly that he was Jewish, many of our readers will misinterpret that statement to think he practiced the religion as well. Binksternet (talk) 20:21, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the attempted lecture. You might want to read Ze'ev Rosenkranz's 2011 Einstein Before Israel: Zionist Icon Or Iconoclast? which supports everything that I just said. Binksternet (talk) 20:43, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I just did: Ze'ev Rosenkranz's 2011 Einstein Before Israel: Zionist Icon Or Iconoclast? You are wrongly applying a monolithic definition to the word Jew, which has multiple meanings. Your arguments in favor of calling Einstein a Jew are based on a blindered definition. Binksternet (talk) 20:59, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Binksternet—you are removing from the article that Einstein was a Jew with the edit summary "it's more complicated than that". Thank you for your original research such as "there are the several meanings of Jewish including religion, race and culture, and Einstein emphatically did not practice the Jewish religion". But we are far better off leaving it to reliable sources. (And also see our article Jewish secularism.) We go by reliable sources. Please present wording from a source asserting Einstein was not Jewish. I have presented several sources asserting that Einstein was Jewish including instances in which Einstein says that he is Jewish. Have you bothered to look at the entirely secular Smithsonian (magazine) source I have provided at the top of this thread? I have provided excerpts that undoubtedly support that Einstein was Jewish. Yet you are reverting the assertion that Einstein was Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 21:13, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Again you accuse of me of original research when I plainly and explicitly said that I was summarizing the book by Rosenkranz. I'm not at all convinced by your argument which balances creakily on a one-legged view of the concept of Jewishness, in contradiction to every source describing Jewishness as multi-faceted: Religion, culture and ethnicity are the three elements. Einstein was two of those three, not all three. Binksternet (talk)
Binksternet—provide excerpts from sources just as I have done. Please provide a source asserting Einstein was not Jewish. We are concerned with what Einstein says about himself and what others say about Einstein. For instance in the entirely secular Smithsonian magazine, Einstein is quoted as saying, "Being a Jew myself, perhaps I can understand and empathize with how black people feel as victims of discrimination". And the Smithsonian magazinealso says about Einstein: "the Jewish scientist was well aware of ... spoke frequently of his Jewish identity ... a Jewish scientist in Germany". These are found here and they provide complete support for the inclusion in our article of a simple assertion that Einstein was Jewish. Honestly, I do not know what you are objecting to. But the burden is clearly upon you to provide the sources that contradict the many good quality sources supporting the generally acceoted fact that Einstein was Jewish. Please provide such sources. I want to examine actual wording. You cannot blithely tell me you are "summarizing the book by Rosenkranz". I'd like to see the actual wording for myself. Please provide excerpts from any reliable sources asserting Einstein was not Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 21:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
You are setting up a black-and-white test for a question that must be answered in three shades of gray. It's a complex issue but you are ignoring the complexity and making a simplistic demand. I am not going to empower your irrelevant test by engaging in it. Suffice to say that Ze'ev Rosenkranz supports every assertion that Einstein identified with Jewish culture and Jewish people, and that Einstein never practiced the Jewish religion. A not-very-controversial conclusion, since other authors largely agree. Rosenkranz is straight down the middle in his analysis—mainstream. Binksternet (talk) 21:57, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Binksternet—you need support in sources that Einstein was not Jewish. Does Ze'ev Rosenkranz make the claim that Einstein was not Jewish? I doubt it. But if you feel there is wording in a source, such as by Ze'ev Rosenkranz, that Einstein was not Jewish, will you be so kind as to present that wording here? A cut-an-pasted excerpt would be nice. A link would be nice. You know, the way I have done above. Bus stop (talk) 22:12, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Attic Salt—let's take this edit, by me. It is not original research because an adequate source has been provided, which brings up the question—why was it reverted? I don't want to get into the weeds about the "three shades of gray" of Judaism according to my fellow editor Binksternet. It is just a simple question that I think calls for an answer. Why was it reverted? The response should involve sources because that's what Misplaced Pages is about, basically. We make assertions that are relevant to topics that are indicated by titles of articles as well as the ledes of articles. Those assertions have to be accompanied by adequate sources. This is being removed despite the fact that it is reliably sourced. Do you see the problem or am I just spinning my wheels? Bus stop (talk) 23:16, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Additionally, Attic Salt, Binksternet is writing "You are setting up a black-and-white test for a question that must be answered in three shades of gray." We need sources for all assertions in Misplaced Pages articles. Where are Binksternet's sources supporting that Einstein is either two-thirds Jewish or one-third Jewish? Sources have been provided by me, in spades, that Einstein was Jewish. Where are the presumed-to-exist sources asserting that Einstein is either not Jewish or only fractionally Jewish? There is the concept of half-Jew but we do not have a source asserting that Einstein was "half-Jewish". We have not seen any source whatsoever asserting that Einstein was fractionally Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 01:26, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Binksternet is saying "He did not celebrate a bar mitzvah and he did not engage in any other religious ritual". What bearing does this have on whether he (Einstein) is a Jew or not? Binksternet is removing from the Einstein article that Einstein was Jewish. Binksternet is making the assertion that "Einstein was two of those three, not all three". Fine, but Binksternet has to present a source. Where is the presumed-to-exist wording in a reliable source supporting that "Einstein was two of those three, not all three"? Quote an excerpt from Ze'ev Rosenkranz supporting your assertion, Binksternet. There are a dozen excerpts above that I have compiled from several reliable sources supporting that Einstein was Jewish. Please expend the effort, Binksternet, to similarly provide excerpts from sources. Bus stop (talk) 11:38, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Are you questioning whether Einstein was not religiously observant? Page 12 of Rosenkranz quotes Einstein himself saying that his religious phase came to "an abrupt end at the age of twelve." He was assigned a tutor for his bar mitzvah, his non-observant parents retaining that vestige of tradition, and he studied partially for the ritual, but did not complete it. Page 20 has the explicit statement about having no bar mitzvah, the beginning of Einstein's "striking turn from religion to science". There are lots of quotes from Einstein about his dismissal of religion caused by his embrace of science in his youth. Rosenkranz includes a long one on pages 19–20, and these sorts of quotes can be found in many other biographies of Einstein. Binksternet (talk) 16:56, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Binksternet—would it satisfy you if, instead of the article saying "Einstein was Jewish", as I have edited into the article in this edit, and which you reverted in this edit, if we turned it into "Einstein was a nonobservant Jew"? Would you be satisfied with that wording? Bus stop (talk) 19:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Your suggested wording is an accurate statement but it is also graceless composition. The fact can be worked into the article more elegantly than one bleak sentence. Binksternet (talk) 19:40, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Have you noticed you are the only one here views Jewishness as a 1-bit datum? That someone is either a Jew or not a Jew? It's more complicated than that, which is why everybody keeps saying no to your questions and proposals. Give it a rest. Binksternet (talk) 17:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
In the Marriage and Children section there is the passage: :"I think of you in heartfelt love every spare minute and am so unhappy as only a man can be." He spoke about a "misguided love" and a "missed life" regarding his love for Marie.
The name Marie is incorrect. It should be Marić as stated earlier.
The MoS recommends a lede section of at most 3-4 paragraphs; at present it is twice as long as it needs to be. See MOS:LEADLENGTH. There's a lot of extra padding text that can be removed. It should just be a succinct summary of the article. Praemonitus (talk) 22:23, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
The last paragraph could easily be redistributed. The second and third sentences should end the first paragraph, while the first sentence should be tacked onto the previous paragraph. I'm not really sure Wigner's quotes need to be in the intro at all.
The third and fourth paragraphs could possibly be merged. The details of all the universities at which he worked seem a bit excessive. And voila, four paragraphs. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
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Not done Marie Winteler, Einstein's "early love", was the daughter of Jost Winteler. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)