Misplaced Pages

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This is Girth Summit's talk page, where you can send him messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Who can give necessary clues to a 'clueless newbie'?

Hello!

I hope you have a good day today. :) I have a question, or may be a request, and I have no idea where – to whom – should I turn.

There is a new user, focused on fixing some detail in Misplaced Pages. His activity (substantial part of which has been deleted by now) leads to nowhere almost but causes a big mess in history of pages. Cleaning it up took a big effort of an admin, including history merges.

I have reported the problem to WP:ANI WP:AIV (corrected 19:23, 17 January 2021 (UTC) --CiaPan (talk)) but it was dismissed as 'it's a clueless newbie, not a vandal'. I was astonished with it, as I think causing a mess in pages and edit-warring on modifying other users' entries in Teahouse – if perseverant – is vandalism. But I let it go.

Now, when that's been done, he started a new revolution: Special:Contributions/Kavex98162. I don't feel like pulling him over to school, but I'm afraid it will eventually end with a block if he doesn't change his behavior. And that would be a harm both for the user and a bit for Misplaced Pages, too. Who can convince the user to take a breath and learn basics before 'fixing' the world? --CiaPan (talk) 10:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

There's something distinctly odd going on here. Things have been revdel'd from WP:BLPN and the Teahouse, and Kavex98162 is trying to get Oliver Emanuel deleted. So is 82.132.219.153 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), who keeps trying to G1 it, and who has also edited Kavex98162's talk page to remove mentions of a draft about Someone Who Must Not Be Named. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 10:30, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

BlackcurrantTea, CiaPan - yikes, what a mess. The stuff from BLPN has been oversighted, rather than revdelled, so I can't see it - I'm guessing they added some non-public information. It looks like there's going to be some tidying up required, let me take a look... GirthSummit _(blether) 10:38, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Fram's posted it at AN/I now, so you'll have help. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 10:42, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@Girth Summit and BlackcurrantTea: Thank you both for taking care and for information. Also warm thanks to Fram for raising the case at ANI.
Special thank-yous go to Black Kite for doing all the hard work with that disgusting mess. --CiaPan (talk) 11:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

CVUA Completion

Thank you for your work, patience and politeness during my CVUA training!

I do have one question. Would this be a good time for me to apply for WP:ROLLBACK rights? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Hey CuriousGolden, you're welcome. You could apply now - you're eligible - but I just did a quick skim through your contribs, back as far as the 1st of Jan, and I'm not seeing much countervandalism stuff. If you wanted to make it an easy decision for the reviewer, you could spend a bit of time doing some more recent changes patrolling. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:19, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I will do more counter vandalism work for the next few days and then apply. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:20, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: Good day, I have applied for the rollback rights now. You can comment on it if you wish here. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 09:18, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Ah nevermind I got it immediately after I posted it. Thanks for all your help! — CuriousGolden (T·C) 09:42, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Reliable sourcing

Hi Really appreciate your feedback and stopped from Medical News Today.Thanks again. Gardenkur (talk) 06:54, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Trump Demagogue revert misunderstanding

I would’ve reverted myself had I seen the RFC and and talk page history on the topic. Of course you were right to revert. I was stating that the arguments in the RFC were absurd. Sorry for the misunderstanding! SanctimoniousDuplicitousBiters (talk) 16:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

SanctimoniousDuplicitousBiters, no worries. Just so long as you understand why I removed it, we're good. GirthSummit _(blether) 16:52, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Oops

In case you got a ping for this, I accidentally reported you at WP:AIV when I was trying to report the IP who left a personal attack on your talk page. (I was expecting Twinkle to report the user who carried out the edit in the diff I was looking out, not the person whose talk page it was.) Sincere apologies! YorkshireLad  ✿   16:04, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

YorkshireLad, no worries - I didn't get a ping. That's rather interesting actually - I'd never really thought about it, presumably reports at AIV are excluded from the notification system for obvious reasons. Thanks for keeping an eye out :) GirthSummit _(blether) 19:21, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

and what right would those reasons be?

What is exactly your problem with the Horned God edit, what issue did your eyes see with my signature? Gnoming?

Besides that, thank you for your input, understanding, and support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Threesom666 (talk • contribs) 11:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Threesom666 - I see you've been unblocked, congratulations. To answer your questions:

• The right reasons are described WP:HERE. Accounts which are used for other reasons, such as messing around and wasting people's time, are often described as being WP:NOTHERE for the right reasons, and are blocked from editing.
• The horned god page after your edit looked like this. Can you see that the image is far too large? So large that it more than fills the screen, forcing the reader to scroll down to find the article's content? I can easily understand someone doing that by accident because they don't know how to set the size of the image properly, but I'd expect them to undo their edit once they saw what they'd done. I find it hard to understand why you left the page in that state - that version of the page persisted for two days after your edit, until an IP editor came along and undid it.
• Your signature is exceedingly long. The purpose of a signature is to indicate who left a message in a discussion, and to provide a link to their talk page. There aren't any hard and fast limits on the length, but even on my 17" laptop screen, yours fills the entire width of the screen and goes onto a second line. That would make any discussion unnecessarily difficult to follow, and would be disruptive.
• Gnoming is a reference to WP:GNOME - lots of editors here proudly proclaim themselves to be gnomes, it wasn't meant as an insult, it's an honourable pursuit. It's a shorthand to describe a form of editing where you go about making small changes, as opposed to writing new articles or undertaking major re-writes. Fixing typos, updating statistics, that sort of thing is gnoming.

If you want my advice (I assume you do, since you've come here), I'd suggest change your signature to something much shorter. The default is just to have your username, with a link to your talk page. You would be welcome to create a userpage displaying the text that currently makes up your signature - that seems more reasonable than inserting the text repeatedly into any conversation you take part in. I'd also suggest that, if you make an edit that messes up the way a page is displayed, you undo your edit and head over to the WP:HELPDESK and ask how to achieve whatever it is you're trying to do.

The username thing is up to you. I can understand why you might be reluctant to change it - at my RfA, a few people said that they assumed my username was an inappropriate sexual innuendo, and that I should change it. I seriously considered doing so, but I'd been using it for ten years and was quite attached to it. In the end I wrote this page in hopes of allaying their concerns. What you do with yours is your choice now that a consensus has established that it isn't outside the boundaries of what is acceptable. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 12:14, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you.

• I don't know what this is referring to since I didn't ask for the right reasons nor was I wasting people's time. They were wasting my time for trying to fix edits. • I did, left like that because I didn't know how to resize. I figured it might've resize by itself or someone might fix the size. This image was originally there and I always liked it but someone keeps taking it down. I'd like to put it back on because it goes with the theme perfectly but I am not a good wiki editor at all. It is way too complicated and there isn't a place where you can just ask someone to do it. • Okay, I thought you might've been referring to with what was said. I didn't think it would cause such a problem. I've always used a signature as a sign off, signature, and reverence. Never as a link or reference to my profile. First! I don't think I even have a profile page. Your free to help as much as you'd like. You're free to edit the signature as you'd like as long as you keep the same words. • I wasn't sure what you meant. Must be a wiki-lingo, which I am not part of. Yea you can say I am sort of gnome but I mostly like to read articles and get pissed off when there is a typo. So much so that I correct it myself when I really don't want to. I'd much prefer to alert it and have someone else fix it since it is so annoying to go through.

I didn't care about being blocked since I am contributing to something I gain nothing from. But they blocked me from several things as well. Which I found too annoying and over barring so I took action. Plus the stupid admin's response which I thought was inappropriate and unhelpful. I personally hate people that have dirty minds and jump at the conclusion of making normal things dirty. I have never been asked, nor persuaded for an explanation. The talk discussion was full of assumptions but happily not everyone had a dirty mind and some actually had an open mind. I didn't want to change it not for the discomfort it causes but because literally is my identity and when I come to wiki to read I'd like to able to come and read under my identity. A complain I do have about wikipedia is that I've now noticed articles everywhere are being trimmed down forcibly I absolutely hate it because to me that is not the purpose of wikipedia, simplify things and dumb it down, but to come here, investigate, educate, and get details you won't get anywhere else. Now as for your username, I did think it came off as strange too, but who am I to judge? And certainly not to forcibly have you removed it or blocked. Plus I think it's nobodies business since nobody sees usernames since they are mostly in the background. Are they going to make wikipedia pg now? With its massive amounts of rated R content? Kinda dumb. and I suppose like me, at your end, you weren't given much to explain yourself. Another thing that is messed up with the system. You know, I had almost given up. I was double blocked and I had been so busy and I didn't do anything for like a week. Then when I tried to reappeal I couldnt. I was totally blocked. But then I said the hell with it and some how I came from the grave. Totally inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Threesom666 (talk • contribs) 20:22, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Threesom666, sorry if I misinterpreted you. I assumed from the section header you wrote, you were asking me what I meant by 'here for the right reasons' - the links I gave you above were meant to address what I perceived to be a question about that. Some more important points:

• If you aren't sure how to do something (e.g. fix the size of an image), you have a few options available to you. You can ask at the WP:HELPDESK - people there are very responsive, you will probably get an answer within a few minutes/hours. Alternatively, you can make an edit request on the article talk page. If something you do messes up the way a page displays, you shouldn't just leave it like that and hope that someone will fix it - undo your edit, and ask for help.
• You don't have a profile page, but you can create one if you like, with that text about strife on it. You already have a user talk page however, and that's what your signature should give a link to at a minimum. The text in your signature as it currently stands is far too long - you should cut it, which only you can do, by editing the text in your 'Preferences' page.
• Now, this next bit is really important. Above, you describe someone as a 'stupid admin' - that is a direct violation of our no personal attacks policy. I see that you have been blocked again for trolling other user's talk pages - I am not surprised, if you're going to say things like that about people. You might disagree with someone's actions, and you can of course think what you like, but if you talk that way about people your next block will probably be indefinite, and a block for personal attacks will likely be far harder to overturn than one for a borderline username violation. GirthSummit _(blether) 10:34, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Revdel request

WhatamIdoing accidentally restored an earlier version of AN/I, and doesn't seem to be online now. Would you be so kind as to revdel the two versions in between these edits? If you check the page history, you'll see that quite a few versions had been done a few minutes earlier. Cheers, BlackcurrantTea (talk) 12:54, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

BlackcurrantTea, hi - I'll be happy to help, but could you let me know what the problem with those version is? A lot of text was reintroduced, it would help if you could point me at the problematic bit.

Actually, I see that a lot of revisions prior to that have been oversighted, but WhatamIdoing doesn't have the technical ability to reinstate anything that has been revdeleted or oversighted: either there are previous problematic versions of the page that also need attention, or the material they reinstated doesn't need to be revdeleted, or I'm missing something. If it's too sensitive to explain on my talk feel free to e-mail, but you might want to consider e-mailing WP:OVERSIGHT instead if there is private information in there. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:22, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

BlackcurrantTea never mind - I spotted the Twitter account in there, I assume that's what the concern is about. I've revdeleted, and will e-mail oversight now; do you happen to know how WhatamIdoing managed to reinstate that version? Presumably it's still there in the earlier history somewhere. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I think I've figured it out - looks like WAID edit conflicted with the redaction while she was typing out her post, and managed to reinstate the doxxing. I've e-mailed oversight, it should be sorted out shortly, nothing further needed from either of you, unless anything I've said above is wrong. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 13:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

(a couple of edit conflicts, must learn to compose more quickly) Because she works for the WMF, I thought she had admin status, so thought nothing of seeing it restored. Thanks for taking care of it. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 13:48, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

BlackcurrantTea, no worries - sorry for the edit conflicts, if I'd looked at it properly before replying I could have done all that in one post! Folk who work for WMF don't automatically get admin status, and she'd have needed the oversight flag to access those versions; I'm pretty sure what happened was that she had the older version of the page open in her browser and was typing up her comment while the redaction took place, then by publishing the comment she effectively undid the redaction - can't see any other way it could have happened. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:58, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

That would do it. I didn't realise the revisions were oversighted rather than revdel'd since there's no difference in their appearance. But of course: personal information gets oversighted, and Twitter is personal information. (One doesn't always think these things through. One will try to remember for next time.) Thanks again. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 14:58, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

BlackcurrantTea, apologies - I'd forgotten that they look the same when you don't have the admin flag. They look very different to me, but you're right, it's not obvious to non-admins which tool has been used to remove stuff. I'll try to remember that! It's been oversighted now anyway, so all tidied up. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 15:08, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I've carefully kept all of my accounts free of advanced user rights. The most destructive thing I have access to is m:MassMessage. But in general, staff-related rights would be on my "(WMF)" account, not my real one. (Yes, there were multiple edit conflicts, plus one time-out message from the Misplaced Pages:Talk pages project's Reply tool. I eventually gave up and pasted the message in the full-page wikitext editor. The oversighting process probably explains what was going on.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Sherdog.com RfC Closure Has Had No Effect on Misplaced Pages Because of a Small but Organized Gang of Editors

Hi. You had participated in the 30-day RfC of Sherdog.com's reliability at RSN here Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_318#Sherdog.com and in the end it was closed to be used only for some basic fight information in the absence of reliable sources such as ESPN, on a case by case basis and with that fact that additional considerations apply on top of it (option 2 or 3).

But some editors (NEDOCHAN, Cassiopeia, Squared.Circle.Boxing, and a couple more) who voted for the reliability of Sherdog.com in the RfC, still enforce the usage of Sherdog.com as the most trusted source on MMA-related pages and go edit-wars for it. They are like a small organized gang of editors that have taken anyting MMA-related hostage on the Misplaced Pages and act like owners of the whole site. It would be nice if you could help with the enforcement of the result and consensus that were reached there since you helped reaching the consensus in the RfC. Thanks in advance.78.190.164.254 (talk) 16:01, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

They are especially active on pages Conor_McGregor, Tony Ferguson and Dan Henderson, trying to enforce the usage of Sherdog.com as the source over reliable sources such as ESPN, Fox, UFC.78.190.164.254 (talk) 16:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I remember the RfC, and my opinion of the source remains the same; I don't recall how I got involved in that discussion though, MMA-related articles aren't an area of interest for me. You are making some pretty serious accusations about these editors, and while you've given links to the pages in question, you haven't been specific about edits you're concerned about. What exactly are the problems - can you give example diffs? Have you tried talking to them? GirthSummit _(blether) 16:21, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

The IP (Lordpermaximum) is evading a block. Just saying. – .O. 17:01, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Could be, Squared.Circle.Boxing, could be... GirthSummit _(blether) 17:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit, the IP's first edits were to post on loads of admin talk pages about the RfC that they started. Come off it.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

NEDOCHAN, I'm not sure what the 'come off it' is referring to - have I said something you disagree with? GirthSummit _(blether) 10:31, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with 'could be'. Have a look at Lordpermaximum edit history.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

From our discussions last year, I got the impression that the world is full of editor warriors willing to go to all kinds of lengths to argue about the minutiae of MMA infoboxes - is there specific evidence showing this particular IP to be that particular person? GirthSummit _(blether) 10:51, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes. Look at their first edit. https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/78.190.164.254 From a supposedly new IP editor? Immediately canvassing admins in regard to an RfC conducted months ago. Lordpermaximum went to war with the entire arbitration committee! NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

It's clearly not a new editor, but I personally don't feel there's enough to go on to say that it's that particular editor. Someone at SPI may feel differently though, feel free to report if you think it's persuasive and I'll leave it to someone else to consider. GirthSummit _(blether) 11:29, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

You can report IPs at SPI? I can find some diffs where the blocked user admitted to using that IP range, as well as another. – .O. 11:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Squared.Circle.Boxing, yes - you can report IPs at SPI, just don't request a checkuser (they're not allowed use it to publicly connect an IP with an account). Behavioural investigation is used, and statements they have made themselves about their IP range would probably be relevant. GirthSummit _(blether) 11:48, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

regarding Nie ji gui

if you can read chinese , you will be able to see this member of Nie is very important in the history . you should add him to the list under Nie (surname ) please see : https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/%E6%9D%8E%E7%80%9A%E7%AB%A0 if you have questions feel free to email me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:5CC:C901:F630:C9D8:CDC:DD37:7B41 (talk) 15:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi IP editor - are you Sericausa? You appear to have left this edit while logged out, let me know if you would like me to redact your IP address. The page you're talking about lists people by that name who have articles about them on the English language version of Misplaced Pages. If you want to write an article about them, please go ahead; before that happens though, they shouldn't be on that list. GirthSummit _(blether) 15:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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Continued discussion

Well doesn't Misplaced Pages characterize its very SELF as user generated??? Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#User-generated_content Examples of unacceptable user-generated sites are Misplaced Pages, Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, Instagram, Reddit, IMDb, Ancestry.com, Find a Grave, and ODMP. Thus, per your directive, no Misplaced Pages article should link to (another) Misplaced Pages (article)!!! But moving beyond the abstract issues, can you suggest any way in the world I can add an entry on the page at issue for "Blue Movie, a 1989 pornographic mockumentary film," and better yet, provide evidence for its existence? Thanks for your kind attention to my sincere query. -BoswellScribbler (talk) 04:23, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi BoswellScribbler. Perhaps it wasn't your intent, but by editing an old version of my talk page, you removed tens of thousands of bytes of more recent discussions, and messed up the talk page archiving. Please be much more careful when editing other users' talk pages. If you want to continue an old discussion which has been archived, you need to start a new thread and remind the person, if necessary, what you were talking about.

Misplaced Pages is user-generated, and unreliable for our purposes. When I see people adding Misplaced Pages pages as references (it' a common mistake), I revert them and give them a link to WP:UGC. That does not lead to your conclusion that no Misplaced Pages article should link to another however: I think you are confusing citations to reliable sources, external links and internal links.

As I have already said to you, the page you were editing is a disambiguation page: its purpose is to provide explanatory links to different existing articles with similar names. If you want to link to an article about that mockumentary film, someone will first have to write an article about it. If you think it would pass the notability guidelines for films, you are at liberty to do so. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 06:22, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry if I did damage; I would have hoped that after two decades, the Misplaced Pages infrastructure would not make it so easy to mess things up when undertaking a threaded discussion with another party, accidentally or maliciously. - BoswellScribbler (talk) 04:09, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

On further consideration, if the film doesn't have an article itself, but there is an article which contains reliably sourced information about it, it would be reasonable to add a link to that article, similar to the ones you see further down in the 'Music' section, where the song titles are not linked, but there are links to the albums the songs are taken from. If, for example, there is an article about the director or one of the principal actors in the film, and that article mentions the film, you could add an entry along the lines of "Blue Movie, a 1989 mockumentary film starring/directed by...". If there is no Misplaced Pages article that mentions the movie however, there is no purpose in adding the link, which as I say only serves to provide the reader with a useful internal link to one of our articles. GirthSummit _(blether) 10:56, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I will argue that a disambiguation page should function to distinguish things that exist in the WORLD, rather than merely distinguish their respective Misplaced Pages ARTICLES, i.e. it is useful to allow entries for which there as yet exists NO Misplaced Pages article. Indeed, I have seen many Misplaced Pages articles which include what I'll call "pregnant" links, i.e. links not to other extant Misplaced Pages articles, but rather to machinery which launches the creation of same. I think it is useful to allow a contributor to effectively nominate the creation of an article that way, even if she herself does not have the time to create it, implicitly soliciting another reader to do so. - BoswellScribbler (talk) 04:09, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

BoswellScribbler, the correct place to request that an article be written is WP:RA. You can argue whatever you like, and if you gain consensus then the practice will change. What you are suggesting is quite a major change though, and would require substantial discussion. Personally, I've never proposed a change that big, but I think the village pump might be the right place to start a discussion. Until that happens, links like that should be removed - if you are aware of other similar links please let me know and I'll review them when I get some time. GirthSummit _(blether) 06:36, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Nonetherite2

Hi. Nonetherite2 is pretty clearly the same user as Nonetherite, who made similar count-gaming edits, some nonsense, was warned, and then reincarnated. Looks NOTHERE, no? —— 08:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

AlanM1, agreed - hadn't realised it was a second account, thanks. GirthSummit _(blether) 08:46, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Huggle

Recently, I switched to Huggle to revert vandalism faster. Am I doing better with Huggle, or do I need to slow down with Huggle? Steve M (talk) 01:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Steve M, I did a quick spot check on half a dozen of your vandalism reverts with Huggle, and I agreed with all of them; is there something in particular that you wanted me to look at, or particular concerns that have been expressed in the past? (Apologies if you're asking because of an interaction that we've had in the past - mind like a sieve...). GirthSummit _(blether) 10:10, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit, not really. It was jest because i am new and wanted an overview with Huggle. Steve M (talk) 13:35, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Steve M, well as I said, from a quick spot check I'm not seeing any issues; feel free to pop back if you ever have a question or a specific thing you want me to look at. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:07, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I need help! Vandalism on my talk page!

Hi, Girth Summit! Please revert IP User 120.22.160.252's edit on my talk page. I cannot undo it anymore because of how much bytes it has added. Help me please! Thanks! A21NX (talk) 07:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

@Girth Summit:, you may also block it for disruptive editing. Your soonest response and action will be highly appreciated. Thank you. A21NX (talk) 07:08, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

A21NX, the IP address is already blocked, they were vandalising quite widely. I reverted their additions to your talk page. GirthSummit _(blether) 07:20, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Girth Summit! I hope no one will vandalize my talk page next time nor my user page. I hate vandals. A21NX (talk) 07:56, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

A21NX, I recommend taking a look at WP:RBI and WP:DENY. Trolls and vandals are often just looking to get attention - the more you react, the happier they are. Their aim isn't to permanently vandalise your talk page (they know they can't do that), they just want to get a reaction from you. My advice, if it happens again, is just to report them, revert the vandalism, and then forget about them - they're not worth getting upset about. GirthSummit _(blether) 08:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	For dealing with a particularly tedious wave of vandalism. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

On that shivaji maharaj wiki

Shivaji Wiki Can't we replace Indian Ruler in the first para with "Kshatriya Ruler" his biography also mentions that he was a shuddha kshatriya and hid ancestor was from kshatriya sisodiya Rajputs Kanishk1zero1 (talk) 05:36, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Kanishk1zero1, it wasn't me who reverted your change at Shivaji. You should discuss changes to the article at the article's talk page, where other interested editors will see the conversation and express their views. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 10:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

125.26.13.50

Can user:125.26.13.50 please be blocked ASAP for vandalism. CLCStudent (talk) 13:04, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

CLCStudent, already done by the looks of things! GirthSummit _(blether) 13:05, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Jame Dreyfus

Hello.

I don't believe we have interacted before, but I am aware that you have been willing to intervene on some of Wikipiedia's more contentious pages.

There is an issue at James Dreyfus. Dreyfus became involved in a protracted Twitter spat, which seemingly ended with him saying he doesn't use pronouns ], which multiple IP users (possibly all the same person) are taking to mean that he does not use them in reference to himself. In reality, this sentence could mean one of several things, however, the point is, it is not relevant to a Misplaced Pages article. A Twitter tantrum doesn't warrant as sufficient for inclusion in a WP:BLP.

Attempts to make reference to the episode in the article text appear to have ceased, and attempts to WP:LABEL Dreyfus have also been reverted. However, IP's continue to reinstate edits removing male pronouns. My reverts are skirting on edit-warring, so I do not wish to continue to do so. One registered editor left me a message, to which I replied and advised starting a discussion on the article Talk Page. A different registered editor then did so, in an unsigned comment, to which I also replied.

I do not feel that there is any justification for removing male pronouns from the article, and furthermore, believe attempts to do so are merely being done for spurious 'point-scoring' motives. The latter is supported by the fact that numerous Twitter users are encouraging and joking about this, including one who specifically stated they were aware their behaviour might earn them a ban, and who made a point of naming my account, in what I can only presume was an attempt to provoke harassment against me. ]. I have requested edit protection, which I believe I have done correctly (I have never done such before). I was hoping you might take a look, and provide temporary protection from IP editors.

Many thanks, and apologies for the rambling nature of my request. Regards. AutumnKing (talk) 15:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Autumnking2012, in this instance the page is clearly being disrupted, and I've applied protection for a week. In general terms though, I'd say that the last thing I want is a reputation for being an admin willing to intervene in contentious pages - your report to RfPP was fine, it would have been acted upon, it's just that the page looks like it's backlogged at the moment.

cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 19:12, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

My apologies if it was inappropriate to make the request here. I have never tried to protect a page previously, and was unsure how effective the process was. I think the fact that my user name was being thrown around on Twitter (there were subsequent instances to the Tweet I referenced) felt a bit disconcerting. I have tried to remove myself from these discussions in the past, when they get too heated. I appreciate that there are topics here which descend too quickly into personal bias. I wanted to make sure I wasn't spiralling into violating the 3RR rules, and I happened to recall that you have previously intervened in discussions I had been following, in a calm and measured manner. Many thanks for your assistance on this occasion, and apologies again. Regards. AutumnKing (talk) 10:43, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

No need to apologise, I'm just letting you know that you did the right thing with the RfPP request. In future, if you're worried about getting drawn into an edit war, you can always consider posting a note at WP:BLPN asking for more eyes on it. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 11:56, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - February 2021

The Yorkshire WikiProject Newsletter

The WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter Issue 154 - February 2021 January issue Got any suggestions? — Add them here Project News Welcome to the one hundred and fifty fourth WikiProject Yorkshire monthly newsletter. Thanks to the contributions of our many members and supporters, WP:YORKS has become a leading local British WikiProject in terms of the total number of articles supported (up from 16,434 last month to 16,522 on 29 January 2021). In the area of GAs WP:YORKS at 190 is ahead of WP:GM who have 88. WP:YORKS also has the lead in FAs at 79 while WP:GM has 69 out of a total number of 4,640 articles. Currently we have sixty two Yorkshire featured articles: Henry Moore • George Calvert, 1st Baron Baltimore • History of Sheffield • York City F.C. • Joseph Priestley • Stocksbridge Park Steels F.C. • Valley Parade • William Wilberforce • History of Bradford City A.F.C. • Last of the Summer Wine • Ealdred (archbishop of York) • Paulinus of York • Wilfrid • HMS Endeavour • Cosmo Gordon Lang • Thomas of Bayeux • Cottingley Fairies • Wilfred Rhodes • Guy Fawkes • Yorkshire captaincy affair of 1927 • Roy Kilner • George Macaulay • Frederick Delius • Battle of Towton • Halifax Gibbet • Gerard (archbishop of York) • George Hirst • Geoffrey (archbishop of York) • Len Hutton • Hedley Verity • Abe Waddington • Æthelwold ætheling • Preparing for a Fancy Dress Ball • The Combat: Woman Pleading for the Vanquished • The Wrestlers (Etty) • Bootham Crescent • History of York City F.C. (1908–1980) • William Etty • History of York City F.C. (1980–present) • Candaules, King of Lydia, Shews his Wife by Stealth to Gyges, One of his Ministers, as She Goes to Bed • The World Before the Flood • Musidora: The Bather 'At the Doubtful Breeze Alarmed' • North Eastern Railway War Memorial • York City War Memorial • Northern England • Albert Pierrepoint • RSPB Dearne Valley Old Moor • Keldholme Priory election dispute • 2018 World Snooker Championship • 2019 World Snooker Championship • Capture of Wakefield • 2017 World Snooker Championship • 2017 EFL Championship play-off Final • 1985 World Snooker Championship • Cardiff City F.C. 2–1 Leeds United F.C. • 1986 World Snooker Championship • 1988 Football League Second Division play-off Final • 2020 World Snooker Championship • 1984 World Snooker Championship • 1925 FA Cup Final • 2006 Football League Championship play-off Final • Acamptonectes There are also seventeen featured lists: York City F.C. Clubman of the Year • List of York City F.C. managers • List of York City F.C. players • List of York City F.C. seasons • List of Bradford City A.F.C. seasons • List of York City F.C. records and statistics • List of Leeds United F.C. seasons • List of Scarborough F.C. seasons • List of awards and nominations received by Arctic Monkeys • List of Sites of Special Scientific Interest in Cleveland • List of Hull City A.F.C. seasons • List of churches preserved by the Churches Conservation Trust in Northern England • Sheffield United F.C. league record by opponent • York City F.C. league record by opponent • List of York City F.C. players (25–99 appearances) • List of York City F.C. players (1–24 appearances) • Bootham Crescent • Kate Rusby discography Thank you and well done to all those who contributed. Article Activity 1997 Football League First Division play-off Final was promoted to GA on 21st December Hector Munro Chadwick was nominated for GA on 21st December Hector Munro Chadwick was promoted to GA on 29th December 1997 Football League First Division play-off Final was nominated for FA on 30th December 2006 Football League Championship play-off Final was promoted to FA on 30th December 1901 FA Cup Final was promoted to GA on 4th January 1988 World Snooker Championship was nominated for GA on 8th January Acamptonectes was promoted to FA on 9th January Hector Munro Chadwick appeared in DYK on 11th January York City War Memorial appeared in TFA on 13th January Hilda Annetta Walker appeared in DYK on 22nd January 1987 Football League Second Division play-off Final was nominated for GA on 22nd January Brian Crabtree appeared in DYK on 24th January Member News There are 90 members of WikiProject Yorkshire! The membership is unchanged since the January newsletter: Thanks A very big Thank you to all the editors who labour away quietly and help make this WikiProject what it is; no edit goes unnoticed. To members who have added suggestions to the ToDo list at Yorkshire Portal. To the football and rugby editors who have done stirling work in keeping abreast of the top clubs. To all the WikiProject Yorkshire editors who have been busy on vandal patrol at watchlist.  Great! Yorkshire articles by quality and importance Quality Importance Top High Mid Low NA Other Total FA 2 1 15 60 78 FL 1 16 17 GA 2 7 36 177 222 B 9 67 137 373 586 C 5 144 303 1,518 1,970 Start 1 242 1,258 8,703 10,204 Stub 21 352 5,657 3 6,033 List 4 12 978 994 Category 3,823 1 3,824 Disambig 21 21 File 22 22 Portal 94 94 Project 102 102 Redirect 2 194 1,348 1,544 Template 552 552 NA 3 3 Other 9 9 Assessed 19 486 2,116 17,679 5,974 1 26,275 Total 19 486 2,116 17,679 5,974 1 26,275 WikiWork factors (?) ω = 97,237 Ω = 5.10 Assessment Assess and review As of 28 January 2021, we have assessed 100% of all articles with a project banner. (Some new and additional article talk pages may still require a banner however) Aims After discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Yorkshire in April 2008. Specific aims for the project are:- To complete tagging and assessment of all Yorkshire related articles (See below) To recruit more active editors (See Member News) To bring our top level article Yorkshire up to Featured article status To bring all other top priority articles (currently 15 with 2 at FA) to at least Good article status To set up a weekly or monthly selected article improvement drive (See this month's feature below) To produce a regular news letter for circulation to members and apropos of the above a 2010 New Year article improvement drive/collaboration is being organised. Priority Articles The top priority articles that have been identified to date are as follows - Bradford • East Riding of Yorkshire • Henry Moore • Kingston upon Hull • Leeds • Northern England • North Yorkshire • Ripon • Sheffield • South Yorkshire • Wakefield • West Yorkshire • William Wilberforce • York • Yorkshire • Yorkshire and the Humber The number has been kept deliberately low to give us a fighting chance of improving them to at least GA status, also so we can concentrate our efforts on these first. WikiProject Yorkshire Collaboration of the Month Project The February 2021 articles selected below are an editor choice as there were no nominations on the project talk page. Month Dates Article(s) B class choice Start class choice 129 1 Sep 2020 ~ 30 Sep 2020 Middleham Hoard On the Yorkshire Buses 130 1 Oct 2020 ~ 31 Oct 2020 Nidd Valley Light Railway PD Ports 131 1 Nov 2020 ~ 30 Nov 2020 Charles Peace Queen Elizabeth Barracks, Strensall 132 1 Dec 2020 ~ 31 Dec 2020 Rother Valley (UK Parliament constituency) Ranmoor 133 1 Jan 2021 ~ 31 Jan 2021 Scarborough, North Yorkshire Salem Chapel, Leeds 134 1 Feb 2021 ~ 28 Feb 2021 Trolleybuses in Doncaster The Avenues, Kingston upon Hull Please nominate future articles for improvement at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Yorkshire. Please bear in mind... The project is subscribed to a clean-up listing which lists articles tagged with various clean-up tags that need attention. The listing is refreshed by a bot on a regular basis. Monitoring is essential Use the watchlist to keep an eye on changes to the project's articles so that vandalism and spamming can be removed as quickly as possible. Moves Please be careful when performing articles moves and ensure that you also move all the talk sub-pages and update any image fair use rational. Otherwise the archives, to-do lists, assessment comments and GA reviews get lost and the image may be deleted as it has an incorrect FUR. You will also have to check that the Commons link is set correctly.  Thanks Comments, questions and suggestions about this, or any, issue of the newsletter are always welcome and can be made by pressing the feedback button below... Written by Keith D • Template by Jza84 | Single-Page View Would you like to write the next newsletter for WP:YORKS? Please nominate yourself at WT:YORKS! New editors are always welcome!

15:35, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I would to be trained for the CVU

I am fairly new here an would like to try to help Misplaced Pages as much as i can. This seems like a good option to start doing some right in the community. Please respond when you aren't busy. Starman2377 (talk) 18:28, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Starman2377, thanks for reaching out, and I'm sorry I took so long to get back to you - I'm afraid it slipped my mind. I've got a student on the go at the moment, and don't really have time to take on another at present - have you considered approaching another one of the trainers listed at WP:CVUA? GirthSummit _(blether) 09:33, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. Ill look for another trainer. Starman2377 (talk) 17:21, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – February 2021

News and updates for administrators from the past month (January 2021).

Administrator changes Hog Farm Mattflaschen • Nandesuka • Savidan • Wangi

CheckUser changes Berean Hunter • Xeno Oversight changes Someguy1221 • Xeno

Arbitration

• The standard discretionary sanctions authorized for American Politics were amended by motion to cover post-1992 politics of United States and closely related people, replacing the 1932 cutoff.

Miscellaneous

• Voting in the 2021 Steward elections will begin on 05 February 2021, 14:00 (UTC) and end on 26 February 2021, 13:59 (UTC). The confirmation process of current stewards is being held in parallel. You can automatically check your eligibility to vote.
• Misplaced Pages has now been around for 20 years, and recently saw its billionth edit!

• Discuss this newsletter
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Vandalism

Hi. User:InellectualThinker vandalizes articles. I want him to be blocked. - Aybeg (talk) 09:38, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Aybeg, The User:InellectualThinker does not generally vandalise articles but you seem to have a dispute on the Article Baykar - best thing would be to discuss this on the article talk page. Please have also a look at Misplaced Pages:How to deal with vandalism. CommanderWaterford (talk) 10:06, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Aybeg - I'll go a further than that actually. As the term is understood here, WP:VANDALISM is defined as bad faith editing; an accusation of that sort, without supporting evidence, is often interpreted as a personal attack, which should be avoided. I haven't looked into the dispute between you that CommanderWaterford refers to, but you have two choices at this point:

• If you are convinced that the editor is intentionally damaging our articles, and are prepared to support that position with evidence, you can raise a thread about them at WP:ANI; be aware though that frivolous accusations of bad faith editing may lead to sanctions against the filing party.
• If you are just in a content dispute with them about what one of our articles should say, you should discuss it with them in a civil manner on the relevant article's talk page, or engage with dispute resolution processes. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 19:23, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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Violation of AGF and PA

Hi, Girth Summit! Can I have your opinion on whether the comments by Steverci here warrant a warning (the user has previously been topic-banned from that topic)? They violated AGF the first time in the discussion, then I asked them not to repeat it again, yet they just replied with a "threat" to take me to ANI. Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:44, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

CuriousGolden, the difficulty with a situation like this will be harking back to conversations that were had elsewhere. I noticed that both you and Steverci were involved in another heated discussion about place names at Talk:Yerevan. I don't pretend to understand the significance of the place names/languages involved, but the issue appears to be a magnet for hostility.

So, how best to respond to a lack of GF is a tricky question. I'm trying to think now of a time where I've seen an 'AGF' warning template achieve the desired effect, and I'm drawing a blank. They often actually increase tensions, and all parties involved end up bickering about who started the argument. I can't tell you what you should do, but if I were in your situation I think I would aim to demonstrate my good faith by rising above any mud slinging, ignoring it completely and focussing on the content question. If you make it very clear that you are acting in good faith, accusations to the contrary become ridiculous. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 17:03, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that's also why I avoided giving a warn to them about it right away, since it usually just ends up with them getting more angry. I'll just ignore everything in their comment that's not about the content we're discussing. Thanks for the help! — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:06, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/GoOKC

This is still open, I assume you meant to close it? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:36, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

RoySmith, oops, forgot to tick the box - thanks, closed now. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:42, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit, BTDT. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

RoySmith, I had to look that one up! Appreciated, a lot friendlier than telling me to RTFM. GirthSummit _(blether) 20:42, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Can you train me on Misplaced Pages:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Academy

Hello, you can please train me on Misplaced Pages:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Academy so that I could have more experience in counter vandalism? Thanks. Rodney Araujo Tell me - My contributions 21:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Rodney Araujo, thanks for reaching out. I'm afraid that I have a student on the go at the moment, and don't really have the time to take on another at present. You could consider reaching out to one of the other listed trainers, I see that some others have slots open. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 09:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you!

Hello! I wanted to say thank you for the CVUA training and help in general that you provided me and I do not agree with the views of the person who impersonated me. Eyebeller 19:29, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Eyebeller, I'm glad to hear it. Welcome back. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:27, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Facts versus Rumours ;)

Hi, Girth Summit hope you are doing well - heads up, seeking for some advice: I am struggling with Richard_Scott_Smith, a blp - I have research access to all new U.S. Newspapers and the results give me that there is "only" a warrant for ident theft for this man - for anything else which is mentioned in the article or in the referring movie Love Fraud I do not find anything related. The given sources are articles about the "True Crime Documentary" covering the reports of the apparently betrayed women but this is not independent, reliable coverage in my eyes especially since I do not find no Court proceedings and logically no guilty verdict. Any idea? BLPProd impossible since sources given, I marked the frases with CN - anything else? PRODing? CommanderWaterford (talk) 21:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Hounding

Hi, sorry to bother you with this ongoing situation but because you have dealt with it before, I figure you have some background. Newimpartial is under a One-Way I-Ban and not supposed to interact with me "in any way". El-C placed the I-Ban last year when they were a very active admin, in response to Newimpartial HOUNDING and refusing to stop when told to repeatedly by admins; I understand El-C has become busier and no longer has time to handle regular complaints so I am bringing this to you.

Newimpartial continues to jump into every disagreement or debate I have with any other editor to pile on me, currently on the LGB Alliance Talk Page. The only concession they make to the I-Ban is that they indent their responses under the other person's replies instead of mine, although they are clearly attacking everything I say. What is the point of an I-Ban for Hounding at all if the person is just going to keep ignoring it and Hounding anyway while simply pretending they're just talking to whoever you're debating with? Newimpartiall just can't resist following me around and trying to pick fights with me, even under a ban. It is beyond exasperating. Lilipo25 (talk) 02:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Query Per WP:BANEX point 2, I would like to ask whether I understood correctly this previous clarification, by El_C, who said in response to a similar question I'm not seeing where you have been addressed or mentioned by Newimpartial. They are allowed to engage content disputes, even when these also involve your edits. My understanding is that I have been observing both the letter and the spirit of WP:IBAN, which specifies that users not reply to each other in discussions or make reference to or comment on each other anywhere on Misplaced Pages with the exceptions specified in BANEX. I would encourage you to review the history of LGB Alliance and Talk:LGB Alliance and please let me know if you see anything questionable, or could offer any further clarification. Newimpartial (talk) 02:39, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, look, if there's something happening with respect to interaction (as described by WP:IBAN), then there are enforcement remedies that can come into immediate effect. But with both of you being regulars of the the WP:ARBGG topic area, WP:HOUND is not something that you are really able to invoke, unless egregious. It is reasonable to assume that both of you watch for any developments of note in GG pages, overall. As such, establishing any sort of prohibition to curtail an intersection (as opposed to an interaction), that's a challenging proposition, to say the least. El_C 02:55, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

El_C I honestly don't know what the point of an IBAN is at all, then. Newimpartial just pops into any discussion or disagreement I have with any other editor and piles on, over and over and over, openly responding to the things I say while simply putting the indent under the other editor's comment. It's deliberate baiting and taunting and they never quit. It's like having some creepy Misplaced Pages stalker who just won't stop trying to make everything I do here as miserable as possible.Lilipo25 (talk) 03:06, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, the point of it is that they are not allowed to revert you and that they are not allowed to speak to or about you (and the same informally applies to you). And that's about it. Again, from an enforcement perspective, for you to be able to form a cogent presentation alongside decent evidentiary basis, for something which may be this nuanced, I foresee challenges in that, is all I'm saying. Certainly, if you want to escalate your grievances, you are free to file a detailed report at WP:AE alleging a violation to the spirit of the interaction ban. I dunno, possibly you would be able to obtain relief? Ultimately, I just don't know. But to elaborate on the above, my sense is that it could prove difficult to achieve. But maybe not? Who knows. El_C 03:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

El_C Fine, but I have played by every single rule - and the spirit of the rules, too - no matter how hard Newimpartial follows me around and baits and taunts and harasses me, for months and months on end. I am officially done. From here on out, I will behave in kind and I just hope I don't have to hear how I'm violating their IBAN when I do. Lilipo25 (talk) 03:32, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, what you do is your prerogative, and I can only offer my sincere hope that it all, somehow, works out amicably, even if against all odds. But, again, from my own perspective, I can only respond to a body of evidence in the form of a coherent report. I'd have to be outright omniscient to act otherwise. El_C 03:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, El_C, Newimpartial: So, I've read through that discussion and I have a slightly different take on it to El C. I'll begin by saying that I believe it's fine for NewImpartial to comment here in this thread, since I would view it as a legitimate and necessary discussion about the ban itself.

With regard to the discussion at Talk:LGB Alliance, I do see Newimpartial's comments as being in violation of the IBan. The References removed thread was started by a third party, asking what people feel about an edit that Lilipo made; Newimpartial chose to respond to their question, which is clearly commenting about her editing, and thus it encroaches on the ban. In the Lede wording thread, it's a thread that Lilipo started, again asking for views on an edit that she made - Newimpartial choosing to comment on that thread could also be interpreted as indirectly commenting on her, since they are again commenting about her edit. I can see that Newimpartial is making efforts to stay focussed on the content there, which is good, but I think they need to be more careful about avoiding commenting on Lilipo's editing.

With regard to the accusation of hounding, that's a pretty serious charge, and not one that should be thrown around without evidence. Newimpartial was editing the LGB Alliance article, and commenting on its talk page, before Lilipo was, and there can't be any suggestion that they followed Lilipo there. I don't particularly want to trawl through both editors' contribution histories - Lilipo, are there any other pages you'd like me to look at to support that charge? GirthSummit _(blether) 14:23, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit, well, myself, I've been stretched pretty thin lately (though this is really par for the course for me), so by all means, please do mete out any remedies you see fit. I'm the admin who has been dealing with these two editors pretty much single-handedly, so any assistance on that front would be greatly appreciated. Kind regards, El_C 14:31, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

El_C, I had been thinking about asking you to reconsider the one-way IBAN, since I don't think it has been a net positive for the project either compared to the status quo ante (where I was ignoring Lilipo's comments but not under a formal IBAN) or compared to a 2-way IBAN (which wouldn't lead to the same enforcement questions, in my view). If you would rather not be dealing with these two editors, could I ask Girth Summit to consider revoking the ban or imposing a different one? Or should I take it straight to AE? Newimpartial (talk) 14:39, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial, yes, absolutely, I invite Girth Summit to do whatever, by adjusting this AE sanction I had imposed (including lifting it outright or adding new remedies, etc.) as they see fit. Again, any assistance from them (or anyone!) would be greatly appreciated. The more eyes on this, the better, as far as I'm concerned. That said, not sure if the current state of the dispute warrants an WP:AE complaint (so as to tax scarce noticeboard resources — take a look there, there's so very few us active there, for the most part). Anyway, it may or it may not warrant that. I've not reviewed much recent evidence to be able to confidently advise on that at this time, one way or the other. But before even thinking about AE, if Girth Summit is inclined to step in, I'd let them do their thing first. I'm pleased to say that I'm leaving you in capable hands. El_C 15:01, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial, I'm not going to take any action right at this moment with regards to remedies and/or altering the ban right at the moment, I need to know more about the recent history. I will attempt to dig down into that soon. GirthSummit _(blether) 15:11, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

By all means please do take your time, and don't feel any urgency from my direction. I am staying away from Talk:LGB Alliance for now, pending some kind of additional feedback from you, though as you have seen there was no WP:HOUNDING involved. Nothing terrible is going to happen to that page as a result of my absence, anyway, since my perspective there (and at Graham Linehan for that matter) is very much that of the mainstream of informed editors. I question the one-way IBAN not because I desire to interact with the other editor, but because I do feel that my background knowledge of some of the gender-related controversies (including such sources as PinkNews) has been unquestionably beneficial to the project, and the conflicting advice I have received about Talk page participation (e.g. El C's previous guidance vs. your recent comment) adds a layer of difficulty for those (rare) pages where the other editor weighs in. That, and it is always a source of friction when I am accused of things I haven't done but am not (apart from this thread) allowed to say so (viz. "hounding" or "gaslighting"). So while this is by no means urgent, I do hope you will find an opportunity to take as deep a dive as you choose, whenever you feel so inspired. Newimpartial (talk) 01:44, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Sure, why not reward Newimpartial for repeatedly violating an IBAN by removing the IBAN altogether? Makes perfect sense. While Newimpartial didn't follow me to the LGB Alliance page (we both came there from the AFD discussion of it and from the talk page of the previous version of that article, which was first put back in Draft and then deleted last month bc it was wildly in violation of NPOV), they did follow me to the Graham Linehan page and the Fred Sargeant page and others. More importantly, they've followed me around the Talk page of the LGB Alliance article and elsewhere, violating the IBAN repeatedly, but apparently the IBAN is meaningless anyway.Lilipo25 (talk) 16:40, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, please actually read what I have written above: I have told Newimpartial that I judge those edits on that page to be a breach of their IBan, and I've asked them to be more careful to avoid any further breaches. I have not said that I will lift the IBan, merely that all options remain on the table and that I will look into the history. You have asserted that Newimpartial jumps into every disagreement or argument you have, but until this last post you only mentioned one article. Just like El C, I am not omniscient, and have a duty to investigate properly and understand the situation before taking any action, which is why I asked you if there were other pages I should look at. You've now mentioned a couple of further articles, and there are also editor interaction tools which will allow me to get an overview of what has been happening. However, I'm a volunteer, it's Sunday afternoon, and looking into disputes of this kind isn't my idea of fun. You've come here asking me to help you resolve a conflict with another editor; and I'm willing to do that when I have time, but sarcastic comments like the one above isn't making me warm to the task. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

However, I'm a volunteer, it's Sunday afternoon, and looking into disputes of this kind isn't my idea of fun. You've come here asking me to help you resolve a conflict with another editor; and I'm willing to do that when I have time, but sarcastic comments like the one above isn't making me warm to the task — welcome to my world, Girth Summit! El_C 17:46, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

El C, you deserve a pay rise! 20% sound about right? GirthSummit _(blether) 18:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Haha, Girth Summit — I'm just going to ask for a straight-up infinite pay raise (what's infinity times zero, again?). El_C 18:08, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

El C make it an easy decision for them - just ask for the sum of all natural numbers from 0 to infinity. You'll owe them about 8 cents... GirthSummit _(blether) 11:33, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

And here I imagined all the worlds I could buy. I guess you can't escape eternity, and also death and taxes.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ El_C 11:49, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

El C and Girth Summit You are both misunderstanding the target of my comment, which I will acknowledge was not artfully expressed immediately before falling asleep. My sarcasm was toward Newimpartial, for responding to an admin saying they had encroached on the IBAN by asking for it to just be removed altogether, not Girth Summit.

I have no expectation for an immediate solution to what is a very contentious and complicated issue between Newimpartial and I. I have been pushed well beyond exasperated. all the way to disgusted, by over a year of continual baiting, gaslighting, hounding and flat-out bullying and don't feel that my staying inside the rules when they simply will not has done me any good at all thus far.Lilipo25 (talk) 23:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Interactions analysis

Newimpartial, Lilipo25 OK, I've taken time to go through your contributions using an interaction analyser tool. Aside from various user talk pages and noticeboards, there have been four pages (and their associated talk pages) where your editing has overlapped:

• Vancouver Rape Relief & Women's Shelter Neither of you have been editing there since April 2020, so I don't think there's any issue there.
• Fred Sargeant We did this one to death last year. I see that Newimpartial has not edited the talk page since the IBan was imposed, and has only made a single edit to the article (to revert an IP editor), so I don't believe there is any ongoing issue there.
• LGB Alliance I've discussed this already. I do interpret a couple of Newimpartial's recent comments at the talk page as being in breach of the IBan, because they were made to threads that concerned Lilipo's editing.
• Graham Linehan You have overlapped in three discussions at the talk page here since the IBan was imposed. In this one from October, I see no interaction between the two of you, and so there is no breach. However, this thread from December was started specifically to address edits by Lilipo25. Newimpartial's contributions to the discussion were minimal, and focussed on content, but by my reading, Newimpartial's comment in a thread about Lilipo's editing was also a breach of the ban. There is another discussion on-going in February, in which I do not see any interaction.
• There are no examples I can find of articles which Lilipo25 has edited since the imposition of the topic ban which Newimpartial has then followed her to, so I cannot see any evidence of ongoing hounding behaviour.

With regard to the four pages above, Newimpartial is not banned from editing any of them, or from commenting on their talk pages, but while it seems to me that Newimpartial has been making efforts to abide by the Iban, I think that they have three times overstepped the mark by commenting in threads that concern Lilipo25's editing.

• @Newpimartial: You are banned from making comments about Lilipo25, directly or indirectly, so if the subject of a discussion thread is her or her edits you should sit it out. Provided you abide by this going forward, I do not see any need to apply further sanctions at this point.
• @Lilipo25: Newimpartial is still permitted to edit those articles and their talk pages, so you should expect to see their name crop up in general conversations there. I do not see any evidence that they have been hounding you since the IBan was imposed by following you to new pages. With regard to the comment above, please refrain from using sarcasm entirely when editing here - it really doesn't come across well, is easily misinterpreted, and just serves to add a layer of unhelpful hostility to any discussion. You should certainly not be directing it towards Newimpartial; if you believe they have breached their IBan, you should make a neutral, factual statement supported by diffs, and otherwise you should not comment about them at all. Please observe this going forward.

I'll be happy to address any further questions or comments either of you have about this. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 11:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, consider making no sarcastic remarks directed at anyone who is ibanned from you. It's unseemly for you to say anything sarcastic about them; really to say anything at all that isn't absolutely necessary, even in discussions like this one. —valereee (talk) 18:07, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Valeree Sorry, why are you involved in this conversation? Are you an Administrator? Because there are already two Admins here, so a third really seems like major overkill for one comment. And if you aren't an Admin, I can't even guess why you would have taken it upon yourself to intercede in such a manner on an Admin's talk page in an already-completed action between them and a user..Lilipo25 (talk) 18:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Valereee Pinged wrong username Lilipo25 (talk) 18:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, valereee is an admin, and she has just as much authority as I do when it comes to taking action with regards to arbitration enforcement. It's not uncommon for admins to have a lot of people watching their talk pages, or for admins to comment on one another's. There is nothing sinister going on, there is no need for you to take that tone, she is giving you very good advice. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:28, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

How would I have any way to know they're an admin, Girth? I checked their page and they don't identify themselves as one anywhere that I can see. Every other admin I've ever seen has the plaque on their user page. For all I knew, they're just another user jumping in to pile on. I don't know why they wanted to say the same thing you had already said to me on your page anyway, but I don't think it's necessary to act like I was out of line for not being psychic here and asking why they were involved when they don't even identify themselves as an admin. Lilipo25 (talk) 18:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, have another look at her user page. She has an admin stats panel right under the userboxes, and she is in the category 'Misplaced Pages administrators' (although you have to scroll down to see that). We're not all obliged to have that little mop icon, and you shouldn't put too much faith in that anyway since there's nothing technically stopping a non-admin adding that to their userpage (although they'd be reverted if anyone noticed). Even if she didn't have the tools, she's the kind of person whose advice I'd urge you to take on board - she has been editing for many years, has about 40,000 edits, and has written more articles than I've had hot dinners. When she speaks, I listen. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

At the risk of insulting you further with my lack of intuition, I had even less chance of knowing what "kind of person" someone I have never encountered before is than I did of knowing who they were. Lilipo25 (talk) 19:01, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, perhaps you're not in the habit of quickly looking into someone who contacts you - whenever someone I'm not familiar with addresses me, I check them out. I don't mean I do a thorough review of their editing habits, but I do a quick check to see whether I'm speaking to a newb, an SPA, a likely sock, or an experienced editor who probably knows how things work around here - my conclusions will influence whether and how I respond to them. Look at the user page (which, if you'd looked at it properly, would have told you about the admin status and extensive history of writing articles) and, if you feel it necessary, take a look at their contribs and hit '500'. There are various other user scripts you can use to find out more about them easily, but those two basic checks should give you an idea of who you're dealing with. GirthSummit _(blether) 19:11, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

@Lilipo25, you can go to Preferences>Gadgets>Browsing and enable Navigation Popups, it lets you hover over a user name and you'll see how many edits they have, how many years they've been editing, and what user rights they have. —valereee (talk) 20:13, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Valereee - I always get stuck helping people with that kind of thing, I have all sorts of gadgets and scripts enabled, and can never remember which one does what. I use that one too, very useful. GirthSummit _(blether) 20:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

GS, I have to actually open prefs each time to make sure 1. I remember correctly where it is and 2. they haven't moved it. I was expecting to find it at Preference>Gadgets>Editing. I would have sworn that's where it was last time I sent someone there lol... —valereee (talk) 20:59, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

I am going to stay out of the discussion on me in Newimpartial's new section about below, but I will state here that I believe I should have been notified by them when they opened a request for me to be IBanned.Lilipo25 (talk) 00:05, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, I think it's reasonable for them to have assumed that you would be watching this thread, and also that they wouldn't want to be seen as breaching the Iban by pinging you. GirthSummit _(blether) 00:09, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, and just so we're clear on all of the rules, you have just agreed with Newimpartial's statement that even if they breach their Iban again in the future in the same way as they did - according to you - three times, you will not sanction them in any way? So although you have told them not to do it, you agree with them that there will be no consequences if they do anyway, because El_C interpreted it differently and they only need to abide by that interpretation and not yours in order to avoid incurring any penalties? Lilipo25 (talk) 00:19, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, no, I told them that I was not going to sanction them for the past occurrences; I did not say that I wouldn't sanction them if it happens again. Now let's all three of us go do something else for a bit and stop thinking about each other. GirthSummit _(blether) 00:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, I will but please, when you return later, please look again at what Newimpartial asked and what you replied, because I am afraid that you did (apparently inadvertently and in good faith) agree to not sanction them in future if they breach again in the same way the three times you mention are the one where El C offered a different perspective in response to Lilipo's query, and the two nearly-identical instances at LGB Alliance that Lilipo asked you about here, yes? And that difference of opinion will not result in me being sanctioned unless I post again based on El C's prior interpretation rather than your current one?. Sorry to be a nudge about it, but that's kind of a large point. GN. Lilipo25 (talk) 00:31, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Lilipo25, I've looked at this again with fresh eyes, and I don't see the ambiguity that you do. The bit you have bolded is indeed the pertinent bit - sanctions will not be forthcoming unless they post again based on the assumption that it's OK to comment on your edits. I think that's clear; I also think that NI has been making efforts to abide by the ban, as they understood it to be; hopefully this will be the end of the matter, let's leave it there. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:14, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Request for 2-way IBAN

My preference about this has taken time to firm up, but I would now ask that the 1-way IBAN to be converted into a 2-way, and I believe I can raise the question here per this diff (if I am misinterpreting, I will willingly revert this edit, but I believe it to be appropriate here based on the comments cited this comment by El C).

The circumstances of the 1-way IBAN were as follows:

• On 8 July 2020, Lilipo accused me of incivility and submitted that I had followed her to other pages
• I replied that I had not initiated any conflict or engaged in any HOUNDing behaviour .
• El C then recommended that I avoid the appearance of hounding by refraining from following her around to pages you've never edited before, which I have observed scrupulously since then (I have not joined any Talk pages after Lilipo since that time, as far as I am aware).
• Nevertheless, Lilipo has continued to accuse me of "HOUNDING".

• Three weeks later, Lilipo took offense at a comment I made in an RSN discussion and raised the issue with El C
• El C then issued me a final warning
• Since that final warning, I have not responded to Lilipo in any way prior to the Talk page discussion (covered under BANEX point 2)
• However, one day after the warning I was participating in an ANI discussion and cited a comment by another user, which had been left at Lilipo's Talk page many months earlier Although this comment that had nothing to do with Lilipo and was relevant to ANI in relation to the other user, I now recognize that this was a mistake and that I should have reflected further before making the decision to post it.
• When Lilipo raised the issue with El C his initial reaction was that this was not an "interaction"
• Lilipo objected to this interpretation
• El C changed his mind and issued an IBAN
• I offered a voluntary one-way restriction instead of a formal IBAN
• El C refused to change his mind.

• Since that time, Lilipo has objected when she saw me participate in content disputes on Graham Linehan; she withdrew that objection after El C's clarification
• However, when I participated in a content discussion on another article, LGB Alliance (which I edited long before Lilipo), she raised the same objection, brought it to a different admin and received a different result.

Now I have never been confident of the merits of 1-way IBANS In general; in this instance, I have become tired of Lilipo's repeated accusations of things that I have never done - things in fact that no admin has ever suggested that I've done. This has culminated in the very recent accusation that I bait and taunt and harass Lilipo, - that I have been following (Lilipo) around and trying to pick fights with her - even though I have not replied to her or commented on her editing/behaviour in any way since last July (until the present discussion). I understand that Admin are not omniscient and that one can disagree with El C's previous clarification that I was allowed to engage content disputes, even when these also involve edits so long as I did not respond to Lilipo or comment on her interventions. But at this point, converting the IBAN from one-way to two-way would give me some piece of mind as I edit, and should result in less admin attention being required over time. Newimpartial (talk) 22:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial, so, on the one hand, I agree with you that the accusations of ongoing hounding are not supported by the evidence, and have to stop. On the other hand, I don't see how I could justifiably respond to discovering that you have breached your Iban three times by sanctioning the other party. I am not minded to modify the Iban, but I will repeat my advice to both of you. You, NI, should desist from commenting on L or on her edits, being careful to avoid involving yourself in threads where she or her edits are the subject under discussion. L should refrain from making any further accusations about you, or indeed commenting about you at all, unless it is a factual and evidenced report of a breach. If hope you will both be able to abide by this going forward. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 23:42, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Right. Just to be clear, the three times you mention are the one where El C offered a different perspective in response to Lilipo's query, and the two nearly-identical instances at LGB Alliance that Lilipo asked you about here, yes? And that difference of opinion will not result in me being sanctioned unless I post again based on El C's prior interpretation rather than your current one (something I am not foolish enough to do)? Newimpartial (talk) 23:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial, yes, those are the three breaches that I see, and no, I don't intend to apply any sanctions over them. Instead I've let you know that I view them as breaches, and why I view them as breaches. GirthSummit _(blether) 00:00, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, I hear you. My last comment on this topic is that, while you don't see how could justifiably respond to discovering that have breached Iban three times by sanctioning the other party, I would observe that WP:BOOMERANG is an actual thing, and an editor managing to repeat at least a dozen unfounded accusations in this filing alone, after being told by multiple admin that they should not behave that way, might have earned more than advice, particularly as I am far from the only one that has had difficulty with the limited WP:AGF practiced by said editor. Newimpartial (talk) 00:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial, I think it would be best if we were to draw a line under it there - I think you just crossed the line between legitimate and necessary discussion of your own ban, and something else. You've said that will be your final comment on the matter - please make it so. GirthSummit _(blether) 00:19, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Scope of IBAN

I have just made this Talk page edit, which I believe to generously respect the requirement to avoid involving yourself in threads where she or her edits are the subject under discussion, and the principle from WP:IBAN that interaction-banned users are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions so long as they avoid each other. I would like to verify that my interpretation fits with yours and that this is represents appropriate participation. It is a sincere edit, not a POINT edit, but I will naturally revert it if you see a problem. Newimpartial (talk) 15:40, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

This is a debate with another editor over my editing of the lead section, which I believe you told Newimpartial to "sit out" in future: You are banned from making comments about Lilipo25, directly or indirectly, so if the subject of a discussion thread is her or her edits you should sit it out. Girth Summit, this appears to be merely an attempt to draw your attention to my disagreement with the other editor, which was not reported to you by either that editor or me. Lilipo25 (talk) 16:10, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

NewImpartial It's possible that you didn't realise that the content under discussion was written by Lilipo25. From a skim through this history, I see that it was, so yes, please self-revert. I'd also suggest that your joining a discussion that is almost exclusively between two editors, one of whom you have an IBan with, looks pointy, even if meant sincerely. Please try to avoid giving the impression of pushing at the boundaries of the ban, and ask for clarification before, rather than after, making an edit. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:11, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

You've got mail

Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Question

Hi, Girth. I hope it's okay for me to ask you about others' behaviours when I can't decide since you're the only admin I know.

So, to give a little background, I moved some articles a few months back to anglicize the name and/or fix a mistake in the name. I recently requested a technical move to anglicize article (redirect was blocking move, so I couldn't do it myself) about the city of Şərur (as the anglicized name was the common name in English-media) and another admin understandably moved it into an RM (Talk:Şərur#Requested move 10 February 2021). There is so far one oppose vote in the RM. And the same user who opposed, has mass-reverted moves today that I had done months ago (some of his reverts weren't even my anglicizations and were basic title fixes). I asked them to not do such reverts without discussing, yet they just removed the discussion. So, I reverted 2 of their revert moves that were basic name fixing and not anglicization. And then.. this discussion happened on my talk page, where the user says they "do not care" and gives me a sort of "ultimatum" to revert my moves under 24 hours.

What do you think? And do you have any recommendations about what I should do? Thanks in advance. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:59, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

CuriousGolden, so, first off I advise you not to tell an editor with their history of contributions that they are vandalising - you know what vandalism is, and you know that to accuse someone of it frivolously isn't acceptable. I think that a broad RfC would be a good idea - it's clear that there have been historical discussions about place names that include non-standard letters in English, but I'm not familiar with them myself, so it would be good to get some participation from editors who are familiar with the history there. Changes that would affect lots of articles should be discussed thoroughly and centrally before implementation - there is no WP:DEADLINE, there's no reason to rush to make the changes. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:38, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit, you're right, I was quick to jump to a conclusion there with the word vandalism, but the editors' mass reverts of moves and refusal to discuss made me think that it was acceptable. And I don't mind an RfC, my plan was to make separate RMs for each city/town article, but the editor's behaviour caught me somewhat off-guard, especially with the 24-hour ultimatum at the end.

What do you think I should do about their ultimatum? The article he has asked me to revert a move on is not even related to the topic dispute is about, it's a simple formatting fix. Should I comply with his demand or not? Thanks for the suggestions, they'll be great help for me in future. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:47, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

CuriousGolden, well, the BRD cycle would suggest that you shouldn't have reinstated your change after they had reverted it without discussing it. I think that the best thing for you to do, the way you could demonstrate most clearly that you are acting in good faith, would be to self-revert back to the status quo ante, and discuss. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:53, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Girth Summit, got it, will do that. Thanks for help! — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)