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Revision as of 05:39, 16 April 2021 editPinchme123 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions, Rollbackers2,493 edits →Chad was colonized via conquest: listed to WP:3O← Previous edit Revision as of 11:54, 16 April 2021 edit undoReidgreg (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Mass message senders26,831 edits →Chad was colonized via conquest: providing third opinionNext edit →
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::::::::::::::::::::How many times are you going to change your reasoning? It isn't "potentially sourced," it's sourced. And it contributes positively to the article. --] (]) 05:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::::How many times are you going to change your reasoning? It isn't "potentially sourced," it's sourced. And it contributes positively to the article. --] (]) 05:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
:{{od|::::::::::::::::::::}}I've listed this for a ]. --] (]) 05:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC) :{{od|::::::::::::::::::::}}I've listed this for a ]. --] (]) 05:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
] '''] Response:''' This disagreement is about adding the underlined portion to the following statement in the article's lead: {{tq|] conquered <u>and colonised</u> the territory by 1920 and incorporated it as part of ].}} It seems redundant to me, It is clear to me (without the underlined portion) that Chad becomes a French colony. The proposer has stated above {{tq|For something to be a "colony" it must be "colonized."}} thus the colonization can be assumed. The lead should be succinct and we should try to remove any superfluous phrasing where possible. So I would say to not bother with the "and colonised". There also seems to be a suggestion of stating ''colonised'' in place of ''conquered'', but I feel that ''conquered'' is more specific and works better with the 1920 date. This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it helps! –  ] (]) 11:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

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A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on 17 dates. August 11, 2004, August 11, 2005, August 11, 2006, August 11, 2007, August 11, 2008, August 11, 2009, August 11, 2010, August 11, 2011, August 11, 2012, August 11, 2013, August 11, 2014, August 11, 2015, August 11, 2016, August 11, 2017, August 11, 2018, August 11, 2019, and August 11, 2020

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Wrong photo?

The photo with the localization of Chad in Africa is not the right one, or the comment/legend is misplaced. There is no "dark blue", "dark gray", "light blue" in that photo. We'd like the photo be changed, and not the legend :) as the legend is more explanatory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LaurV (talk • contribs) 05:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

BC or AD (in History)

This sentence seems to be wrong:
"By the end of the 1st millennium BC, a series of states and empires rose and fell in Chad's Sahelian strip,"
I think it should read AD, because that’s what it says in the main body of the article, doesn’t it? Also the German version seems to confirm this. (They have a paragraph "The era of large states, 900-1900 AD.) Anyone knowledgeable can confirm this?--Geke (talk) 20:57, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

love the chad page

i love the chad artical௫ lol loveBryanna5 (talk) 14:00, 8 May 2014 (UTC) Bryanna

we ALL love the chad artical Bryanna5 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.219.183.158 (talk) 15:40, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Origin of the name 'Chad'

It would interesting to know why it's called Chad! Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 23:22, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Chad's Television service

Chad's television service is Télé Tchad, not TeleChad. NetHelper (talk) 03:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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HAOW CAN WE RITE IN CHAD LANGUAGES

whay there is not photos of the charecters of the languages of africa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.0.98.156 (talk • contribs) 07:26, December 14, 2018 (UTC)

Try clicking on the links at Languages of Chad. As for this article, I don't think it needs any more photos. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:47, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Years in Chad

Template:Years in Chad has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. -- M2545 (talk) 13:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Arabic transliteration

I know just enough Arabic to get in trouble, and I don't see why this edit is the correct transliteration. Why is Taw transliterated as T and not Ta? If you know about ar-en transliteration, can you enlighten? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:14, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Incorrect map

The map showing the location of Chad shows Eritrea and Ethiopia as one country. Would it be possible to fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.28.198.9 (talk) 17:21, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Request made for map to be rectified.--Quisqualis (talk) 17:42, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
Map now shows Eritrea as separate from Ethiopia.--Quisqualis (talk) 15:03, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change 

only the occasional spontaneous palm grove survives, and the only ones to do so are south of the Tropic of Cancer.

to 

only occasional spontaneous palm groves survive, all of them south of the Tropic of Cancer.

The current version is simply a bit wordy. 64.203.187.101 (talk) 12:44, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 13:16, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

massacre des coupes-coupes

More details needed about “massacre des coupes-coupes” November 15, 1917 --49.245.103.70 (talk) 11:07, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Chad was colonized via conquest

For anyone who doubts Chad was specifically colonized in addition to being conquered (these terms are not synonymous), here are a couple academic sources that refer to Chad as having been colonized by the French, or refer to the French as "colonizers":

"Nomadic society, civil war, and the state in Chad": As a consequence many young men took the opportunity to engage in the armed forces of the FROLINAT, they became professional soldiers. This pursues the practice during the French colonization, when many nomads engaged in the police or the army. (p.154)

"Waiting: The Sorcery of Modernity, Transnational Corporations, Oil and Terrorism in Chad": Bagirmi initiated a policy of southern expansion during the reign of its sovereign Mbang Abd el-Kader (1846-1858) that continued throughout the 19th century until stopped in the early years of the 20th century by the French colonizers. (pp. 22-3)

--Pinchme123 (talk) 06:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there's any doubt Chad was a French colony, but colonisation is often an extended process, and the word itself has different meanings and implications. Chad was not an empty land into which settlers were sent, it had existing people and political structures. CMD (talk) 06:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Your explanation makes no sense. Colonization isn't about moving into empty land; That's "settlement." For something to be a "colony" it must be "colonized." And as for it being an extended process, describing it as "colonisation via conquest" is exactly describing that extended, violent process, ending with colonization. Because "conquer" (and "conquest") do not include in their definition "colonization" as the end result. --Pinchme123 (talk) 06:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Please see our article on Colonization, the concept is inherently linked to settlements. As for the proposed phrase "colonisation via conquest", it doesn't really make sense, as evidence by its sparse google hits. CMD (talk) 07:00, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Not sure why you'd point to a Misplaced Pages article, given WP:NOTSOURCE. Instead, here's an article from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, explaining the nuances of colonialism and colonization: Colonialism is a practice of domination, which involves the subjugation of one people to another. ... The term colony comes from the Latin word colonus, meaning farmer. This root reminds us that the practice of colonialism usually involved the transfer of population to a new territory, where the arrivals lived as permanent settlers while maintaining political allegiance to their country of origin. It goes on to describe at length colonization by European countries of different parts of the world, by force, all of which are examples of colonization of other peoples. It even implicitly holds that colonization is something beyond a mere conquering, when it states, olonialism is not a modern phenomenon. World history is full of examples of one society gradually expanding by incorporating adjacent territory and settling its people on newly conquered territory. Conquer first, colonize after. All of it with existing populations in the area being colonized.
Colonization is the correct term to describe French rule of Chad. If you don't like "France colonised by conquest", I actually agree with you; the sentence should simply read "France colonised", my original suggestion. This phrase was a compromise, since you insisted on referencing the militarism.
--Pinchme123 (talk) 07:12, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Last thing for a while: by the way, even if a Misplaced Pages article were an acceptable source, the very first sentence of Colonization ends with gaining significant privileges over other inhabitants of the territory by such links. So from even the imperfect source you've provided, colonization is about control of not just land, but the also people who previously inhabited/controlled that land. --Pinchme123 (talk) 07:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
That is a helpful source and quote which goes over the link between colonisation and settlement. The source also opens with and goes further into the nuances between colonialism and imperialism, and the common conflation of the two (including the distinction between Algeria and the rest of the scramble for Africa), which is perhaps what is happening here. CMD (talk) 07:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
If by what is happening here you mean to imply I am conflating the two, this would be incorrect. In fact, my argument specifically rests on the separability of imperialism from colonization. France built an empire through imperialism. It did so by colonizing already-settled lands in, among other places, present-day Chad, because it moved colonizers there permanently to oversee the colony. These were actions beyond mere conquest (or conquering), because of the additional steps they took to colonize. Thus, Chad was "colonised". In every case where the term "settlement" (or a derivative) is used, it is explicitly in the context of displacement of existing populations, so it isn't at all in the sense of settling an empty locale.
If my assumption is incorrect, and instead we are on the same page, I would appreciate you taking the initiative to revert "conquered" back to my originally-suggested "colonised", since that is the more accurate term.
--Pinchme123 (talk) 07:40, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
France's movement of various overseers to Chad did not happen all at once in 1920. Nor does putting overseers go beyond "mere conquest", it's generally required for any conquest to have any permanence. Switching conquered to colonised is not more accurate, it removes information without adding any and is vaguer, and implies that there was as you note a "displacement of the existing populations" by new settlers, which did not happen in Chad. CMD (talk) 08:06, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Conquered absolutely is less accurate than colonised, but it seems you object to removing conquered entirely, so I suggest "France conquered and colonised the territory by 1920".
At no point before did I claim colonization was fast and under no circumstances is conquered any less vague than colonized (since the concept of conquer/conquest only pertains to military defeat and does not in any way refer to post-defeat subjugation or any other form of rule). But now you strangely seem to want to argue that displacement is necessary? This isn't required; that quote of mine was to explain why it's incorrect to claim colonization can't occur in a place where people already live, as you seemed to have claimed before. Colonization can include displacement, but it isn't necessary. What's necessary is long-term administration by nationals who move to the colonized location, to politically and economically rule the area.
--Pinchme123 (talk) 14:23, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Your proposed wording limits the colonisation to "by 1920", when the administration was a longer ongoing process. It is also unclear what the addition adds, as the current sentences note the conquest, rule, and independence, so it is already clear that France was administering the territory. Regarding conquest, it does not refer to battles, but to acquiring territory. CMD (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
My wording accurately describes colonization of Chad, not the entire period of colonial rule. No additional areas were colonized once military operations completed in 1920. Colonial rule of Chad, a separate distinction, continued from the initial French government control - beginning in 1900 - over parts of the area now called Chad until independence of the full area in 1960. From 1900 to 1920, as parts of the country were taken by force, they were added to the colony; the appropriate description of this process is "colonise". But don't take my word for it, I've already linked to two academic articles where experts have referred to Chad as having been colonized by French colonizers. --Pinchme123 (talk) 15:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Your first source disagrees, as it refers to the entirety of French rule as the period of colonization. Do you have any sources that state the French colonization of Chad ended in 1920? CMD (talk) 17:06, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
The first source does not disagree and you're baselessly misrepresenting it. It gives no time period for the period it calls "colonization"; it only describes police or army activities by local populations during the period. It states independence was at 1960. It no more "refers to the entirety of French rule as the period of colonization" as it refers to this period as a long-term rock concert. We have a multitude of sources showing the process of acquiring the full colony - aka the "colonization" of - was completed in 1920, no need to find more.
But more importantly, you clearly agree Chad was colonized. At this point your refusal to agree to including the word "colonise" in the lede is WP:IDHT with a dash of pedantism. The phrase "Chad was conquered and colonised by 1920" is clear in context that it is referring to the process of acquiring the colony via colonization and conquest, and is not in any way implying colonial rule ended in 1920 - at least not to a reasonable person.
--Pinchme123 (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
My expectation is that police and army activities continued from 1920 to 1960. The formulation you propose is just not really how the word is used. Perhaps it is best to request further opinions on this matter, or other WP:DR steps. CMD (talk) 01:49, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Your expectation would consitute WP:OR, as the source makes not claim. The "formulation" I propose is exactly how the word is used, as I have scoured looking for examples and cannot find a single instance of "colonised by " or "colonized by " to have ever been used to describe the end of colonial rule, as you claim. Here are a number of examples which show this phrase construction has been used in the way I have suggested: example 1, example 2, example 3 (all these examples were easily found by searching for the phrase "colonised by 1900" as an example). Please provide even one single instance of this word being used in the way you propose it's used. --Pinchme123 (talk) 14:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Police and army activities happening in Chad from 1920 to 1960 is OR? At any rate, I am not suggesting a certain use of the word, I am opposing the replacement of a word with a clear meaning to a broader one with multiple interpretations, as per the Stanford source you provided which discusses the variations in usage within literature. CMD (talk) 16:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Your opposition makes no sense then. The Stanford source makes clear what the concept of colonization is, as an explanation for why it's entirely correct to say Chad was colonized by 1920. It also completely ignores my most recent proposed language, which isn't to replace "conquer," but to append with "conquer and colonise." With this clarification and revelation, your entire position is WP:IDHT. Given your statement here that your opposition is to replacement, I'm going to go ahead and add the additional word. --Pinchme123 (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
That addition is redundant and potentially misleading. Per the Stanford source, "The term colonialism is frequently used to describe the settlement of...Algeria...The term imperialism often describes cases in which a foreign government administers a territory without significant settlement; typical examples include the scramble for Africa in the late nineteenth century", and in this case the word adds no additional information while also providing the implication of settlement. I would ask again to consider other WP:DR steps in this regard. CMD (talk) 02:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
The addition is not redundant. Your edit summary suggests population movement is needed, it is not. "Conquered" does not include "colonised" and per reliable sources Chad most definitely was colonised; if you think otherwise, provide sources showing it wasn't. You haven't even provided any evidence that no settlement occurred - even if that were crucial to the use of "colonised", which it isn't - yet I have provided multiple sources showing content experts deem Chad to have been colonized. The term very clearly applies and your obstinance here is textbook WP:IDHT. I've now reinstated the term with WP:RS included. I suggest you refrain from edit warring over well-sourced content and instead provide evidence of your own. --Pinchme123 (talk) 03:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Just because an item is potentially sourced does not mean it needs to go into an article. Please see WP:ONUS. That Chad was a colony is quite clear through the article and existing text. CMD (talk) 05:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
How many times are you going to change your reasoning? It isn't "potentially sourced," it's sourced. And it contributes positively to the article. --Pinchme123 (talk) 05:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
I've listed this for a third opinion. --Pinchme123 (talk) 05:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

3O Response: This disagreement is about adding the underlined portion to the following statement in the article's lead: France conquered and colonised the territory by 1920 and incorporated it as part of French Equatorial Africa. It seems redundant to me, It is clear to me (without the underlined portion) that Chad becomes a French colony. The proposer has stated above For something to be a "colony" it must be "colonized." thus the colonization can be assumed. The lead should be succinct and we should try to remove any superfluous phrasing where possible. So I would say to not bother with the "and colonised". There also seems to be a suggestion of stating colonised in place of conquered, but I feel that conquered is more specific and works better with the 1920 date. This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it helps! –  Reidgreg (talk) 11:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

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