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Revision as of 18:48, 23 November 2021

G'day! This is Andrew Alder's user talk page, you knew that. Welcome!

If you'd like to see what I'm doing, this is how I do that

If I left you a message on your talk page, please respond there, I am watching your talk page. That's of course unless the message at your talk page was a mere heads-up as to progress on a discussion here or on another talk page, in which case probably best to continue the discussion where it is. I prefer to discuss issues regarding any particular article, policy etc. at its talk page, so if I'm already involved in a discussion there's no need to fork the discussion to here, and if not then a simple heads-up here with a link to the relevant talk page and section is best. Be aware of the canvassing guidelines, but if you're just asking me for advice rather than a whole list of people there should be no problem there. Please don't censor my talk page. Just because you don't support what someone else is saying is no reason to remove it. Is it now? (You wouldn't think I had to say that, but I have learned otherwise.) On the other hand, if the edits you are removing are by banned users (or their socks), then please feel free to do it. That's not censorship, it's administrative drudgery, and I thank you for taking it on. But if there's doubt as to who the contributor really is, or if the proposed ban is not yet in force, or both, better to leave me to clean up my own page. (And again I would have thought that was obvious to all, but have learned otherwise.) A non-abusive heads-up on the other antics of the contributor, in reply to what they have said or done here, is always appreciated. TIA!

If you're tempted to go below the top three levels, you might like to read User:Andrewa/How not to rant first

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WikiProject Article Rescue Squadron Newsletter

Article Rescue Squadron Newsletter Volume I, Issue III February 2012 Front cover | Feature | News and announcements | Humor | Want ads To contribute to the next newsletter, please visit the Newsletter draft page. ARS Members automatically receive this newsletter. To opt out, please remove your name from the recipients list.

List of current IPL team rosters listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect List of current IPL team rosters. Since you had some involvement with the List of current IPL team rosters redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so).

Life-cycle greenhouse-gas emissions of energy sources

As I noticed you on the talk page, please check this out and let me know what you think.

2012 Yale University systematic review and Harmonization

A Yale University review published in the Journal of Industrial Ecology analyzing CO2 life cycle assessment emissions from nuclear power determined that.

"The collective LCA literature indicates that life cycle GHG emissions from nuclear power are only a fraction of traditional fossil sources and comparable to renewable technologies."

It went on to note that for the most common category of reactors, the Light water reactor:

"Harmonization decreased the median estimate for all LWR technology categories so that the medians of BWRs, PWRs, and all LWRs are similar, at approximately 12 g CO2-eq/kWh"

The study noted that differences between emissions scenarios were:

"The electric system was dominated by nuclear (or renewables) and a system dominated by coal can result in a fairly large ranging (from 4 to 22 g CO2-eq/kWh) compared to (30 to 110 g CO2-eq/kWh), respectively."

The study predicted that depending on a number of variables, including how carbon intensive the electricity supply was in the future, and the quality of Uranium ore:

"median life cycle GHG emissions could be 9 to 110 g CO2-eq/kWh by 2050."

1. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-9290.2012.00472.x/full Life Cycle Greenhouse Gas Emissions of Nuclear Electricity Generation

Merger Proposal

You've got mail

Road Case/Flight case merge

Agreed. I think that someone looking for encyclopaedic information on this topic would not differentiate between a flight or road case and would want all the information available in one article. Indeed, it would make Misplaced Pages more concise to merge. A visitor may not know there's any difference anyway, and not look for the other article at all.

What is the procedure for getting a merge to happen once it's been flagged on a talk page?Black Stripe (talk) 14 July 2013.

Cuban missile crisis or Cuban Missile Crisis

There is currently another vote taking place on the talk page of Cuban missile crisis whether to recapitalize the name or keep it in lowercase. You participated in the 2012 vote, and may want to voice an opinion or comment on this one. I'm writing this to the voters from 2012 who may not know about this vote. Randy Kryn 19:04 13 January, 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Andrewa. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Misplaced Pages arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page.

Closing a requested move

Hi. Would you please summarize and close Talk:Kennadi Brink#Requested move 13 October 2021? I don't know how to use Misplaced Pages:Closure requests (e.g. submitting my request there). Mann Mann (talk) 03:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mann Mann: Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Closing instructions say "If you wish to solicit a closure, go to the administrator's noticeboard and ask for an impartial administrator to assess consensus...Do not ask for a specific person under any circumstance". The noticeboard its referring to is WP:CR.VR _talk 04:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Vice regent: So I can go to WP:AN and submit my request there? Mann Mann (talk) 04:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Not at WP:AN but at WP:CR.VR _talk 04:27, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

As I said in my first comment, I know Misplaced Pages:Closure requests is for it. But I don't know how to do it. It's confusing for me and I don't see any instruction/help. Mann Mann (talk) 04:30, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I think you'd post it in this section. There are instructions at the top of the textbox when you're in editing mode.VR _talk 04:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

As an aside, I see that the discussion you're referring to is not contentious at all and probably doesn't need an admin to close it. Anyway, I think I'll let Andrewa (who is an admin, and knows more than me) answer your questions. Sorry if I caused confusion, maybe I'm not a very good WP:Talk page stalker.VR _talk 04:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not about being "contentious", it's about the time and consensus. I posted that RM (13 October) and only one editor participated and that was not enough in my opinion. So I relisted it (21 October) and three more users joined the discussion. Now 14 days has passed and I think it's time to close it. The reason why I asked for Andrewa's help is because I saw him closing another RM opened by me. So I came here. Yeah, I know any uninvolved editor can close it but I prefer admins. That's all. Cheers! Mann Mann (talk) 04:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mann Mann: I took a look at your RM. I'm an RM closer myself. One thing I'd suggest is giving evidence of what the common name is. You can do this with google links, or links to news articles etc. As a closer I like seeing arguments grounded in policy and supported by evidence.VR _talk 12:40, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Vice regent, Mann Mann, thanks for your patience and wanting to do the right thing. My confidence in Misplaced Pages sometimes takes a beating (enough said) but you two make it all worth while. While agreeing with VR that more evidence would be good, I think wp:snow applies here and have closed the discussion as moved. And hopefully, we can move on. Have a look at wp:creed#bold for more of my take on this!

I am confident that Misplaced Pages has been improved by your efforts here, so thanks again. Andrewa (talk) 16:52, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you guys for the help and providing useful points. I appreciate your work. Cheers! Mann Mann (talk) 02:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Brand new logo for Warner Music Group

I work for Warner Music Group. I see you’re a member of the Wikiproject Music. There’s a brand new logo for WMG. I uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons as the representative of the company, but I know I’m not supposed to directly edit Misplaced Pages articles when I have a conflict of interest. Would you be able to take a look at the request to swap out the old logo and logo caption at Talk:Warner Music Group#Help switching to new logo ? Thank you so much for your consideration.Music2022 (talk) 00:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Separate section

If it is ok with you, I will make this into separate section. The proposal of a new article isn't the same thing as a move request. Lets have some compassion for the closer and reduce the amount of stuff they have to read through in order to close that discussion. Thanks VR _talk 04:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Vice regent I do not see the point in that. I do not see that it makes it any easier for the closer... it is clearly not part of the poll. But when this discussion is eventually archived, it would be good for this section, which is part of that discussion, to be archived with it. Andrewa (talk) 07:10, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Currently there are 22 comments, of which 13 are about a content dispute that took place on wikipedia article Concubinage a few weeks ago (in which Grufo was blocked). Like the discussion isn't even talking about the concept of concubinage, the discussion is talking about editing patterns on another article. I don't think that's relevant to the RM.VR _talk 13:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this comment of yours, but maybe I misinterpreted it. Are you supporting the RM when you say "it may be better to move and rescope an existing article rather than to start a new one"? VR _talk 13:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

No. I oppose the RM, as per my !vote. The move I suggested would be to the title Concubinage (Islam) or similar. And probably not of the article that is the subject of the current RM. But that topic deserves an article, and there is ample material for it. But the search for an NPOV natural disambiguator for it appears to have been a complete failure. Andrewa (talk) 22:26, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Why do you disagree that the article currently the subject of the RM should be moved to Concubinage (Islam)? I've looked at the sources used in the article myself and found that they are talking about "concubinage", not "sexual slavery". I compiled some of these results into this table. Please take a look at the table.VR _talk 01:51, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I have indeed looked at it, and it makes a good point. But It does not show that sexual slavery and concubinage are synonyms, and they do not appear to be. They deserve separate articles, in my opinion. Sexual slavery is likely to have far more traffic than concubinage owing to the interest in the allegations that it is continuing. But few people would even know, or probably care, that some or all of those who practice it call it concubinage. The articles should link one to the other, of course. Andrewa (talk) 04:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I see from your user page that you're a logician, so let me try my hand at making an argument :-)

Premise 1: Sexual slavery and concubinage are not the same thing.

Premise 2: the sources used at article sexual slavery in Islam are about concubinage (evidence).

Conclusion: sexual slavery in Islam is about concubinage, not sexual slavery.

Hope I didn't bomb that.VR _talk 12:20, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid I think you did bomb that, but it's a very good contribution because it draws attention to exactly what the fallacy is. In premise 1 the term concubinage refers to a wide range of practices. In premise 2 it refers to a specific practice. Thus there is no middle term, and the syllogism has no valid conclusion.

This error in a less explicit form permeates much of the discussion. Andrewa (talk) 17:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

You're right about my error (sorry about that), but it doesn't change the conclusion. The term concubinage in premise 2 is still not the same thing as sexual slavery. Hence we can rewrite premise 1 with the same concubinage used in premise 2 and premise 1 would still remain true. Do you agree? VR _talk 18:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Separate section of a discussion about a separate section

If I may…

• Premise 1: Sexual slavery and concubinage are not the same thing.
• Premise 2: Concubinage may be practiced with a sex slave, although that constitutes a particular case.
• Premise 3: Islam constitutes the only exception to Premise 2, in which concubinage can be practiced only with a slave

Conclusion: Specialized sources that deal only with Islam may use “concubinage” as a synonym of “sexual slavery” when they talk about Islam, as the context forces the specialized reader towards that. Non specialized sources (e.g. Misplaced Pages), where the two do not represent synonyms, cannot do the same. --Grufo (talk) 13:13, 20 November 2021 (UTC) This comment was an answer to this comment. However I moved it here as requested by Vice regent.

Firstly, thanks for the requested re-format. Now for the response: your conclusion is contradicted by premise 1. Either "sexual slavery" and "concubinage" are synonyms or they are not. Make up your mind. FWIW, I think they are not synonyms and not the same thing.VR _talk 13:44, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, they can become synonyms in a particular context. We can make an abstract example if you wish. Imagine an imaginary society (let's call it Viceregentonia) where slavery is employed for various tasks and where the law mandates that cleaning the streets is allowed only to slaves. You can have specialized books that talk about “garbage collectors” in Viceregentonia; however non-specialized books will probably not call them garbage collectors, but slaves, street slaves, slave-sweepers, etc. --Grufo (talk) 13:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Let's add a critical assumption: while all garbage collectors in Viceregentonia are slaves, not all slaves are "garbage collectors". In Viceregentonia some slaves are cab drivers, chefs, and CEOs. With that in mind we can see that most sources, especially the non-specialist ones, will not consider "garbage collector" and "slave" as synonyms. If one wanted to write an article on "garbage-collectors" in Viceregentonia, one would call it Garbage collectors in Viceregentonia. VR _talk 16:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC) Signature copied due to comment splitting. --Grufo (talk)

No, the non-specialized sources will not consider “garbage collector” and “slave” as synonyms, but will consider “garbage collector” and “street slaves” as synonyms (or whatever other modifier of “slave” you want to choose), and will prefer to use “street slaves”, because with Viceregentonia we are not talking about just any garbage collectors. Similarly, we don't consider in Islam “concubine” and “slave” as synonyms, but we consider “concubine” and “sex slave” / “slave for sex” / etc. as synonyms. --Grufo (talk) 17:00, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

This is one of the two issues we have. The definition of sexual slavery is broad and includes child marriage, forced marriage, sex trafficking, child abuse, bacha bazi, forced prostitution, child pornography etc. VR _talk 16:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

That applies to every type of slavery: the broad definition is always broader than the specific society you apply the definition to. For example, after Nero Roman slaves had the right to complain against their masters in a court – and more broadly, slavery in ancient Rome acquired more and more rights during the evolution of the Empire. Should we stop calling them slaves because of that? Similarly, Islamic sexual slavery had its own specificities. --Grufo (talk) 17:00, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

One of your above comments is incorrect. To show you how, let me ask you a simple question. In the Islamic context, would you agree with the following statement: "all concubines were sex slaves, but not all sex slaves were concubines?" If you disagree, please explain. If you agree, we'll move further.VR _talk 18:00, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to jump in here. I agree with that statement, but I also think it is POV. Some regard concubinage in this context as no more abusive than other marriage or marriage-like customs, while most would regard any form of slavery as abhorrent. So while in a sense the semantic content is OK, there is also an emotive appeal that needs to be considered. And I think this is a key issue here. We all have agendas and need to avoid expressing them in Misplaced Pages's voice. Andrewa (talk) 18:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree that saying "all concubines were sex slaves" is POV and, AFAIK, unsupported by RS. My point is that even if we agree with Grufo that all concubines in the Islamic context are sex slaves, there's no way he can show that "all sex slaves were concubines". Hence, in all contexts (including the Islamic one) sexual slavery and concubinage are not the same thing.VR _talk 21:31, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Vice regent: Concerning your question would you agree with the following statement: "all concubines were sex slaves, but not all sex slaves were concubines?", the answer is not as easy, and there cannot be a clear answer. While we have a clear definition of sexual slavery, we do not have a clear definition of concubinage. Forgetting Islam for one second, concubinage might simply mean any kind of sexual intercourse outside marriage that occur more than once between two persons, or even just once. And going back to Islam, it really depends on the epoch and the region. Any female slave could be employed as concubine. And while some contexts might have had a more formal category of slaves used only for sex (the Ottoman concubines for example), in other contexts the border is less clear. So I cannot agree with “all concubines were sex slaves, but not all sex slaves were concubines”: depending on how you look at it, it might well be that all sex slaves were concubines. Or not. --Grufo (talk) 20:04, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Grufo: "all sex slaves were concubines" is a false statement. For example, child marriage is an example of sexual slavery. Yet concubinage, by all definitions, excludes marriage. Is there any logical reason you have for disagreeing? VR _talk 20:41, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I am so glad we are in the talk page of a logician… @Andrewa: Will you explain the fallacy or shall I? (That aside, I did not find anything in support of the sentence “child marriage is an example of sexual slavery”). --Grufo (talk) 23:42, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Source that child marriage is a type of sexual slavery:.

There are other ways of showing your statement is false too. For example, in medieval Islamic law, a concubine was always a female, never male. In fact, in most cultures concubines are always only women, as can be seen at concubinage. Yet 'sexual slave' can be either male or female. Hence in this context it is false to say "all sex slaves are concubines".VR _talk 00:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this is a key issue. The solution as I see it is that we need an article on sexual slavery in Islam by whatever name. The scope of this article would include all of the practices you mention but they would be mentioned if and only if we have sources that discuss them. Some use of primary sources is OK here, but secondary sources are preferred. It would certainly include concubinage, but in the interests of undue weight would have a main link to an article on concubinage in Islam, again by whatever name. It would also include the sexual abuse (that's my disclosed POV) and trafficking of girls and women by ISIL and other Islamic organisations, again if and only if we have suitable sources. Andrewa (talk) 18:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Before I respond to your suggestion of having an article on "sexual slavery in Islam", I want to clarify what that would look like. Would it include all of the following practices which fall under the generic definition of sexual slavery: sex with female slaves, sex with male slaves, child marriage, forced marriage, sex trafficking, child abuse, bacha bazi, forced prostitution, child pornography? There is evidence that each of these practices has occurred, at one point or another, in a Muslim-majority country. VR _talk 18:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Vice regent: We rarely plan in advance everything that an article can possibly include, especially when no editor proposes to write it. If and when someone will add a specific content to the page we will be able to decide whether it is out of scope or not. --Grufo (talk) 20:09, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The problem here is that scope indicated by the title is very different from the scope indicated by the content. And in those cases we normally change the title to meet the content (as opposed to changing the content to meet the title).VR _talk 20:41, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

When an article's title doesn't match its content, we can change either or both. I don't think we have a policy or practice that one is better than the other. Andrewa (talk) 20:53, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, but there has not been, to date, any concrete proposal or attempt to change the scope of the article to "sexual slavery in Islam". Nor have there ever been any sources presented to substantiate such a topic. I asked for sources to be presented on broader topic of "sexual slavery in Islam", but none were presented. As mentioned many times before all the sources thus far presented have been on "concubinage", which is at best a subtopic of sexual slavery. If an article is about a subtopic, it should be named accordingly.VR _talk 21:06, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The problem here is that scope indicated by the title is very different from the scope indicated by the content: Not everyone agrees with this sentence, which is why I asked everyone: If you think “Sexual slavery in Islam” does not match the current content, what would your scope for a “Sexual slavery in Islam” article be? (see Talk:Sexual slavery in Islam § A reverse approach). You are still in time to explain how you would write an article on “Sexual slavery in Islam” (I do not know your opinions about this). At the moment I can only duly note that your ideal “Sexual slavery in Islam” article would have a different scope, but I do not know what that scope is. --Grufo (talk) 23:36, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I'll play along: scope of “Sexual slavery in Islam” would include all the evil Muslims who rape men, women, children and slaves, who partake in child pornography, partake in sex trafficking, force adults and children into marriage, etc. Now what? Can you find sources that suggest such a topic exists in RS? Probably not.VR _talk 00:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I see that you don't want to explain what the scope of Sexual slavery in Islam should be according to you. I believe nobody can help you then. --Grufo (talk) 01:38, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I thought I just did, but why don't you explain what the scope of Sexual slavery in Islam should be according to you? You're the one who wants such an article, not me.VR _talk 01:43, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

If you ask me to I will take your answer about “evil Muslims” seriously. You want the article too, you even created a WP:POVFORK of it; you only don't like its name. --Grufo (talk) 01:48, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to ask Andrewa below about scope of such an article. If you have any further stuff to add, pls add it here instead.VR _talk 02:03, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

• Andrewa: should there be an article on "sexual slavery in Islam" separate from "concubinage in the Muslim world"? If so, what should its scope be? Are there even sources that treat this as a coherent topic? Because I have only found sources on concubinage in the Muslim world, but none on "sexual slavery" in the Muslim world.VR _talk 02:03, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I have found many, and it was not difficult. So I suspect that the difference is in the criteria we are using. For example, this page deals with both sexual slavery and concubinage. Does it count as a source that documents sexual slavery in Islam? If not, why not? Andrewa (talk) 23:18, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
    • The source only documents a particular very particular type of sexual slavery (making female slaves into concubines) but not other types of sexual slavery. The general definition of sexual slavery is gender agnostic so would also include the sexual exploitation of male slaves - but the source doesn't cover that. Sexual slavery also includes forced marriage, child marriage, child pornography etc (which need not even involve formal slavery), again the source doesn't cover that. And all of these things have happened in all countries, including Muslim ones.
    • So basically this reinforces what I've been saying all along. In the Islamic context, one might consider concubinage to be a subset of sexual slavery (although sometimes concubines were 'free' women, not slaves). All the sources I've come across only focus on this narrow phenomenon. This is why Sexual slavery in Islam also remains focused on the narrow phenomenon of making female slaves into concubines - nothing at all in that article about sex with male slaves, child marriage, bacha bazi etc. And all of these practices do happen in the Muslim world.
    • If A is a set that includes and an article is about "B", then we should name the article "B", not "A" (per WP:Precision).VR _talk 02:25, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
      • You claimed above that you had only found sources on concubinage in the Muslim world, but none on "sexual slavery" in the Muslim world. But they are easy to find. I have given one.
      • You now seem to be saying that because this article does not deal with all practices that might be called sexual slavery, we should ignore what it does say.
      • Or perhaps because it deals with concubinage, it can't be a reference on sexual slavery. Is that perhaps the logic here?
      • You say one might consider concubinage to be a subset of sexual slavery (although sometimes concubines were 'free' women, not slaves)... In other words, one would be wrong to consider concubinage to be a subset of sexual slavery, is that what you are saying? If so, what is the point of what one might consider? It seems to just muddy the waters.
      • I'm afraid that I think that the source I gave is relevant, and it was easy to find. And nothing you have said seems to contradict this. Yet you wish to reject it. It seems pointless to give others unless you can present a coherent reason for rejecting this one. Instead you wish to rehash your opinions as to what this lack of sources indicates. But there is no lack of sources.
      • So perhaps the reason that you are not finding sources is simply that you do not wish to do so? I'm sorry if that is harsh. Andrewa (talk) 03:04, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I feel you're making the same logical error I did earlier - you're defining "sexual slavery in Islam" in two different ways. The source describes it as "sexual slavery in which young women were made concubines." Under that definition "sexual slavery in Islam" is nothing more than "concubinage in Islam" and would not merit an independent article. But the general definition of sexual slavery is significantly different from concubinage. It is different because it includes sexual enslavement of men, child porn, forced marriage etc.

So if you want to demonstrate "sexual slavery in Islam" is notable as an independent topic you'd need to find a source that defines it in such a way that would merit an independent article. It would also need to provide depth of coverage consistent with WP:GNG (which the source you gave does not). Finally, no worries about harshness, my main objective here is to clear logical errors. Though we might have different views, but logic is something we can both agree upon.VR _talk 04:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, logically perhaps we should stick to a question rather than repeatedly leaving one hanging and shifting to a different one? This is a source that discusses sexual slavery. You want to exclude it, fair enough. But your claim that such sources do not exist is just plain false. How is that for logic? Can we agree on that, and move on to the other questions that you raise?

I am not defining anything. But you and others are attempting to do so in terms that express a POV that diminishes the responsibility of Islam for sexual slavery by calling it concubinage, a term that has a significantly different meaning in English rather than its more restricted meaning as a translation of an Arabic term. This may not be your motive, we all have agendas and they can be tricky.

This Arabic term describes something which is worthy of an article. I have suggested Concubinage (Islam) as the title for such an article. Have you a better one, or reasons for not wanting us to have such an article? Your set theory above does not provide one. If it did, we would have no need for a main template.

It does not appear to cover all of sexual slavery in Islam. (It certainly does not cover all of sexual slavery, I think we have agreed on that.) It may cover all of the current practice, or not. But both of these questions are a matter of sources, not our personal opinions or definitions. Andrewa (talk) 18:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Viceregentonia

Below is a response to this comment by Vice regent. VR _talk 05:33, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Vice regent: I am becoming addicted to your fallacies. Please, keep going. I will quote part of your comment verbatim but applying the following substitutions:

• Islam → Viceregentonia
• Sexual slavery → Sweepery slavery
• Concubines → Garbage collectors
• Young women → Young humans

If logic is what you invoke, your comment should still make sense with these substitutions, and I will have to ask you now whether you will open a year-long move request to rename the existing “Sweepery slavery in Viceregentonia” Misplaced Pages article to “Garbage collectors in Viceregentonia”. Here comes your comment, updated:

The source describes it as “Another category of slavery was sweepery slavery in which young humans were made garbage collectors”. Under that definition "Sweepery slavery in Viceregentonia" is nothing more than "Garbage collectors in Viceregentonia" and would not merit an independent article.

— Pseudo Vice Regent

Ready to replace our “Pseudo Vice Regent” with the real Vice regent?

This other part of your comment is also fantastic: But the general definition of sexual slavery is significantly different from concubinage. It is different because it includes sexual enslavement of men, child porn, forced marriage etc.. According to your logic I could easily argue that “contubernium” was not sexual slavery because it did not include “child porn”. Even ISIS' sexual slavery would not be sexual slavery because of the same reason. --Grufo (talk) 04:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I never implied contubernium wasn't sexual slavery, I implied contubernium and sexual slavery aren't the exact same thing because sexual slavery is much broader. Do you disagree? VR _talk 05:33, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Of course a concrete form of sexual slavery is not the same thing as the definition of sexual slavery, more or less like a pine is a tree, but tree and pine are not the same thing. And you should stop defining sexual slavery on the basis of what it can include, because the definition is really much broader. This one given by Mark Klamberg is a good one:

Sexual slavery is a particular form of enslavement which includes limitations on one's autonomy, freedom of movement and power to decide matters relating to one's sexual activity.

It means that sexual slavery includes a lot of things.

Now, your argument between the lines of intentional fallacies that you throw and then abandon is more or less like the following (correct me if I am wrong): if what we are talking about is both a particular form of sexual slavery and a particular form of concubinage, why should we prefer the name “sexual slavery”? The reasons are many:

• The meanings carried by “concubinage” and “sexual slavery” for an average reader go in favor of “sexual slavery”
• Sexual slavery can include other non-concubinage phenomena that are still justified within religion (e.g. bacha bazi), while the other non-slavery forms of concubinage are forbidden in our context
• The exception qualifier wins. For example, imagine to have two particular groups of trees in Minnesota. The first group are normal green pine trees while the second group are weird purple pine trees. You can use “Pines in Minnesota” for the first group, but you ought to use “Purple trees in Minnesota” for the second group, as it is very unusual for trees (pines or not) to be purple. Being the only case in history in which all concubines were slaves makes Islam the purple group.
• “Sexual slavery” does not require context as per Natural disambiguation (WP:NCDAB)
• Many other arguments outlined during the discussion at Talk:Sexual slavery in Islam

Any other fallacy to throw? --Grufo (talk) 15:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Grufo you've said many times that "Being the only case in history in which all concubines were slaves", but never bothered to provide a source for this. In fact, I even pointed out that concubinage in the Muslim world was sometimes practiced with free women (source).VR _talk 15:58, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

You pointing out is not a source, and you should read the sources that according to you would pave the way to free women enslaved only as a formality for having a fifth wife. In the review that Kecia Ali made of Concubines and Courtesans the only mention of a “kinda” non-slave concubinage is emphasized as an exception unique to the Timurid dynasty, and formally they were still slaves:

Usman Hamid’s account of the freeborn Muslim women incorporated into Timurid royal households as concubines—contrary to standard interpretations of Islamic law— was a way of circumventing the restriction on the number of legal wives a man could take while accruing the benefits of marriage alliances (“Slaves Only in Name: Free Women as Royal Concubines in Late Timurid Iran and Central Asia”). As Hain concludes, “Reproductive politics favored slave concubines”.

Even Circassians, who were Muslim, were enslaved to be used as concubines, despite this broke the rule that Muslims could never be enslaved. It means that the necessity of being a slave for being a “concubine” (i.e., a “slave-girl” in Arabic) was felt stronger than the necessity of being a non-Muslim for being enslaved. --Grufo (talk) 16:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Both the source I provided and the one you provided points to the existence of "free" concubines in the Muslim world:

"Timurid sources from the later period list numerous women as royal concubines who were not slaves." (Gordon, page 190)

"The inclusion of free women among the ranks of royal concubines, despite the ready availability of female slaves, suggests that Timurid practices of concubinage..." (Gordon, page 192)

"Babur’s memoirs perhaps suggest that Timurid use of free Muslim women as concubines had cast the entire institution in disrepute in the eyes of some contemporaries." (Gordon, page 193)

"Usman Hamid’s account of the freeborn Muslim women incorporated into Timurid royal households as concubines" (Ali)

On the other hand, this source says that most concubines in slave-owning societies were slaves (the source is about societies in general, not specific to Muslims). And such a practice was common in Korea, America, Vikings, ancient Greece, etc (see concubinage). (For example, regarding China: "Concubines differed little from slaves and were bought, sold, traded and given away." Source: "Women in Early Medieval China", page 18)

If you're going to claim that Muslims were the "only" group in world history to have exclusively slave concubines you need to provide some sources. VR _talk 17:54, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Point by point:

• There were no free concubines, there were free women who were formally enslaved to circumvent the law and keep their freedom only de facto. We are very far from the free concubinage of Madame de Pompadour and Louis XV (just to throw any other royal example).
• The source that says that most concubines in slave-owning societies were slaves relies on a fallacy and I already contested it when you inserted it in the Concubinage article. It relies on the assumption that English automatically calls “concubinage” any form of sex outside marriage, and on the basis of this assumption it concludes that most concubines were slaves (as slaves were often the most numerous groups). However,

1. Although “concubinage” can be used for any form of sex outside marriage, English does not prefer to use concubinage over sex slavery when concubinage is practiced with slaves. English actually uses concubinage most of the times for meaning “inconvenient/impossible marriages”, and in civil law for “civil unions”, and indeed these appear as the first definitions in dictionaries.
2. Because of the fallacy your source rely on, contubernales (both men and women) should be counted as concubines, although we count them as slaves, or as contubernales, which is more specific.
3. Even if your source were without fallacies (but it is not), saying that most concubines were slaves is very different than saying “all concubines needed to be slaves”, as it is the case in Islam.

• I don't know any other case where concubinage requires one party to be enslaved. Do you?

--Grufo (talk) 18:21, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Surriyya

Much of the above hinges on what we mean by concubinage.

It seems to me that, in Islam, concubine is the normal English translation of an Arabic term surriyya, is that correct?

Vice regent and Grufo, I hope you might both confirm or deny that simple claim of mine. Andrewa (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Possible discussion move

Andrewa, I was wondering whether it is the case to move most of this discussion to Talk:Sexual slavery in Islam using templates {{Moved discussion from}} and {{Moved discussion to}} – I would move everything starting from this comment. --Grufo (talk) 15:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I really would not like if you moved this long and off-topic discussion to the RM. No one in the RM needs to know about "Viceregentonia", "purple pine trees" etc. RMs are supposed to solicit input from the rest of wikipedia. But if we paste WP:WALLSOFTEXT there it deters others from commenting. This is why I discussed this here, not there. You may post a link to this discussion there if you wish.VR _talk 15:58, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

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