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Inf-in MD

Nableezy

The History Wizard of Cambridge

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning The History Wizard of Cambridge

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe#Standard_discretionary_sanctions

1. Revert of Nug on 21:34, 11 December 2021.
2. Revert of Volunteer Marek on 22:00, 11 December 2021. Mass killings under communist regimes is under a strict 1RR.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Received a 48 hour block for edit-warring earlier this year at Cecil Rhodes on 09:06, 3 April 2021.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict on 06:29, 10 December 2021.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I explained the discretionary sanctions and asked The History Wizard of Cambridge to self-revert the 1RR violation prior to filing this AE report, deliberately declining to revert it myself or to take any particular stance on the underlying content, but The History Wizard of Cambridge refused to do so.

The History Wizard of Cambridge previously deleted content in two non-consecutive edits on 5 December (, ) although those edits were not reported here because it was ambiguous whether they qualified as reverts and whether the user was then aware of the discretionary sanctions in effect at Mass killings under communist regimes (notwithstanding the prominent notice that displays whenever editing the page).

Under the former account name of BulgeUwU, which was considered obscene and had to be changed, this user was the subject of an ANI report by Pudeo detailing what other users called "mass POV changes" (Pudeo), "ridiculously blatant POV-pushing" (Ineffablebookkeeper), "deliberate falsification or just incompetence" (Red Rock Canyon), and "improper synthesis" (Fences and windows). Among other things, The History Wizard of Cambridge/BulgeUwU wrote in wikivoice that British historian Robert Conquest (author of The Great Terror: Stalin's Purge of the Thirties) "committed plagiarism" using a source that failed verification, after which the user conceded: "Even though the word plagiarism is not used , I don't know how else to accurately describe actions."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning The History Wizard of Cambridge

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by The History Wizard of Cambridge

Statement by Paul Siebert

I myself noticed this edit war, and I posted this warning on the talk page. There is a clear 1RR violation here, but before making a decision, two considerations must be taken into account.

• First, this edit by @Nug: restored the source that is, according to this RSN discussion is unreliable. In addition, several users (, ) objected to that. Therefore, the user whom The History Wizard of Cambridge reverted clearly violated consensus. Similarly @Volunteer Marek: repeated the same edit, and that action also was against a consensus.
• Second, there is a serious reason to suspect that the opposite party was acting as a tag-team. I believe, many admins are aware of that reason, but if they aren't, I can explain it, either here of by email.

My opinion is that this article has a very bad karma, but we currently are starting to work productively and collaboratively on fixing its problem. Thus, a dispute resolution is currently in progress, and Nug is an important participant in it. I think that AE sanctions will bring unneeded drama, which will immediately create a very toxic atmosphere. However, if admins decide that sanctions are needed, then both warring parties must be sanctioned. In my opinion, a final warning to all parties would be the most fruitful solution.

@RegentsPark: I think you are absolutely right, but in addition to that, I propose to look at the problem that I partially discussed in my previous statement. This article is a focus of interest of two warring groups of users. The 1RR restriction does not prevent an edit war between the groups, as each user in the group only makes one revert in 24 hr. It is easy to see that this type edit war has already begun. The reverts made by The History Wizard of Cambridge are just a part of the long series of reverts and re-reverts made by the two opposing parties: the full history is this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this). As we can see, we have a full scale edit war between two parties. More importantly, three users who restore this text are ex-members of WP:EEML. And, in this situation, to block or warn just a single user, who was not patient enough to wait 24 hours, would be the least logical step. It would be a clear signal to all parties: "You may continue your conflict, just try to observe some formal decorum". Therefore, it would be fair to apply additional restrictions prohibiting the execution of the second revert independently on whether the first revert was done by the same user or by another editor. If necessary, I can make it a subject of a separate request. --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:19, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to ping @Seraphimblade: too, for it seems there are some aspects in this story that he overlooked.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:47, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

• Update: the 'tag-team' edit war still continues. I am seriously contemplating a separate AE request.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon

Does the filing party really think that the best way to improve this article, which was the subject of the largest AFD in the history of Misplaced Pages, is to identify an editor or editors who have violated 1RR and sanction them? I don't think so. I suggest that we warn the reported editor, and advise the reporting editor that this sort of enforcement by clock isn't useful either. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:34, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved) IP editor

I don't know if uninvolved persons are allowed to comment..if not, my apologies. @RegentsPark: and @Seraphimblade:: I strongly urge you both, as well as any other admins that may happen to review this, to thoroughly read the statements by the editors directly above and carefully consider the entirety of the whole situation here; first of all, 1RR is clearly failing to prevent disruption on this page. 1RR does no good if there are a tag team of 10 (or whatever many) editors each taking their turn to revert once a day! To block one editor for reverting twice against a tag team of editors - who were adding unreliably sourced (per RSN consensus) material, no less (which is not just some frivolous content dispute, mind you, and is a violation of WP:V), is not reasonable. On a final note, I remind all admins reviewing that WP is intended to not be a bureaucracy, that IAR is a core policy intended as a safeguard against situations when the enforcement of the letter of the rest of policy would result in a broken system, as well as a countermeasure against editors, or groups of editors gaming the system. And that's all. Do the right thing! Peace! 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:C2:BB5:D65F:F72A (talk) 19:51, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning The History Wizard of Cambridge

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• This is a clear cut 1RR violation, and on highly contentious articles, 1RR is an absolute bright line. I'm also not at all impressed by the failure to self-revert when notified of the issue. I was waiting for the reported editor to respond here, but by now they have had plenty of time to do so. I would suggest a week or so block from editing the article (though not the talk page or any other page, so that discussion may continue), but the point needs gotten across that 1RR means 1RR, period. Seraphimblade 14:13, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
• I agree that this is a clear cut 1RR violation that was pointed out and not self reverted. But, I think a warning is probably a better bet than a block. Everybody has a bad moment and the response here seems like one of those. That offending edit was reverted by someone else, History Wizard seems to have taken a cool down break of their own accord, time to move on. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:04, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Maneesh

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Maneesh

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Newimpartial (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:31, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Maneesh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:GENSEX

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. I have no problem saying "transwomen are male" ... Not POV, just a simple facts. I'm terribly uninterested in a wikpedia that censors such simple truths. Please do go out there and do your best to ban me if you think your efforts will be successful - this pretty much speaks for itself.
2. Removal of sourced article content to comply with the POV noted above.
3. Revert-warring that preceded the above outburst.
4. More of the revert-warring, over the same WP:GENSEX issue.
5. Maneesh promoting the same POV in the Talk page of Man.
6. Maneesh revert-warring against consensus and ONUS to promote the same POV in the article text of Man.
7. Maneesh editing the Man article to erase the mention of transgender men and women (text that was previously arrived at through consensus on Talk).
8. Maneesh opening a discussion on Talk:Man by equating gender identity with mental delusions.
9. (added by Newimpartial (talk) 15:51, 14 December 2021 (UTC)) proposed article text for Man that would replace references to trans men and trans women with some men identify as as women and some women identify as men - I have added this here because I referred to it in response to Springee, below.
10. (added by Newimpartial (talk) 22:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)) In their filing below, Maneesh has announced their intention to continue to disrupt the WP:GENSEX subject matter area while denying that discretionary sanctions apply to their editing, against site-wide consensus.
11. Added by Newimpartial (talk) 02:14, 15 December 2021 (UTC) An additional reply, right here.
12. Added by Newimpartial (talk) 17:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC) right here, again. Maneesh characterizes gender identity as a harmless folk notion saying, anyone can identify as anything they like and there is generally nothing wrong with that - this statement runs flatly counter to the MEDRS and is purely disruptive. Competence is required.
13. Added by Newimpartial (talk) 19:55, 15 December 2021 (UTC) Virtually nothing NewImpartial has said here has made any sense, I now understand the mentality of who I am dealing with. - Clear personal attack, at AE, concerning a GENSEX issue.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Date Explanation
2. Date Explanation

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 13 December 2021

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The diffs above, documenting POV-pushing and disruption in Article and Talk space, were chosen judiciously and are all from the last week. It seems that Maneesh has decided to "level up" their insistence that trans women are men, etc. It is particularly difficult for trans editors to carry on CIVIL discussion with an editor who insists on this POV, and who questions the ready evidence that trans people exist. See for example, the discussion on Talk:Man that began when Maneesh posted - in defense of removing text about gender identity from that article - that Both males or females can identify as males or females or basketball players, royalty, alien beings or just about whatever they want: in other words, a trans person's gender identity has the same status as an institutionalized person's belief that they are a reptoid, or the Queen of England. That isn't WP:CIVIL, and is disruptive in WP:GENSEX editing.

I would request that Maneesh be topic-banned from the area of gender and sexuality, broadly construed, to prevent further disruption. Newimpartial (talk) 00:31, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Crossroads: you appear to have misunderstood the nature of my filing. I am not suggesting that Maneesh's POV is beyond all reasonable limits, and must therefore be removed. Nor am I am saying that all of the diffs in this filing represent "bad" edits showing bad faith.

What I am actually saying is that they are all disruptive edits: it is UNCIVIL to taunt and insult trans people because an editor does not "believe in" gender identity. It is disruptive to revert-war over article content to pursue a POV crusade against ONUS and/or BRD even when the editor is right about the content. (I am not saying that Maneesh is right about the substance of any of these edits; I am saying that it doesn't matter to this filing what position is "right", so Crossroads' lawyering about this seems besides the point.)

There are plenty of editors on GENSEX topics with whom I disagree, including those who have already rallied in support of Maneesh, and I am not trying to remove them from the topic area. But there is only one editor currently engaged in this specific style of disruption: Maneesh.

As a postscript, I am very careful about (and reluctant to use) the term "transphobic". However, I understand that edits (and arguments) intended to erase trans people from the article Man are correctly termed "transphobic" - indeed, I didn't think this was especially controversial. And if Crossroads knows trans people who are comfortable having their gender identity compared to having a delusion of being an alien, good for them, I guess? But I believe that viewpoint would be rather WP:FRINGE among trans people. (And outside these issues of civility and decorum, I don't pretend to speak on behalf of other trans and nonbinary people - we are a rather diverse group and perhaps the only thing we have in common is that we prefer neither to be erased nor insulted.) Newimpartial (talk) 10:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, Crossroads, while this is not the place to resolve content issues, I hope you can understand the difference between the position you articulate below, that recognizes the language use in the MEDRS article I linked but calls it FRINGE, and the position Maneesh "articulated" on Talk:Sex differences in medicine, denying that this use of language exists in the RS, at all. This is the difference between interacting with an editor like you, which can be difficult and frustrating but at least allows some reference to sources and policies for guidance, and interacting with Maneesh who will ignore evidence and insult interlocutors without any constraint arising from Misplaced Pages norms. The point of the source I offered was not, "this is the way WP articles should be written" but rather "these sources exist" - something you (grudgingly) accept and Maneesh seemingly does not. As far as the extent to which Sex differences in medicine needs to reflect the emerging scholarship in transgender health, that is a question for another day, but all I was doing in the linked discussions was pushing back at Maneesh's POV crusade to expurgate that material from the stable versions. And I don't really see how you can invoke WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS in service of Maneesh's BOLD changes to those articles...that seems to me to be an "original" interpretation of that policy. Motivated, even. Newimpartial (talk) 03:41, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Finally, @Crossroads, you are right: the IP falsified my quote by removing self-avowed and queers, fags (and) dykes ... remain. My comment was always about queer identities and not at all about queer (or "homosexual") bodies. I wouldn't say the same thing now in those words, of course; I felt provoked by Pyxis's rhetorical "queer-bashing', q.v. I don't do queer theory, and it's queer practitioners and their enablers that are the ones desperately trying to change common sense... You can say you're a human green monkey, but there are no human green monkeys except for the one you invented. At the time, I felt that I was replying in a proportionate way; I don't see it that way now, but my unfortunate statement has been a useful litmus for socks, though - that's a bright side. And your apparent belief that it is fine to mock the identity "queer" but not "homosexual" seems, erm, inconsistent to me. I have stopped undermining the latter long since, but Pyxis keeps on keeping on against the former and you seem fine with that. Also, I have queer and nonbinary insignia right on my User page; it is not as though my identities are somehow concealed. Newimpartial (talk) 19:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@GoodDay: my reference was to a "mug", as in someone duped by a shell game. And I was addressing the room at that point, and more Sideswipe9th than anyone else (as I specified here using the equivalent term, "gull"). Newimpartial (talk) 13:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Springee: as you saw me note at Talk:Man, the statement that Maneesh removed from the article amounted to essentially, "some AMAB people are trans women" and "some AFAB people are trans men" ... the same as "trans people exist". Interestingly, Maneesh eventually counter-proposed language something like 'some men identify as as women and some women identify as men ...' which is, as I then pointed out transphobic language that denies transgender existence - the only mention of transphobia I made on that Talk page. And since Maneesh had opened that discussion with both males and females can identify as ... alien beings (diff 8, above), I don't see any way the slight to trans people could have been inadvertent.

And Springee, I don't think it is reasonable for you to state that I am too quick to assign -phobia type motives to other editors, since I essentially never do so. Even in the case of Maneesh, I have been careful to characterize only proposed language (or removal of content) as transphobic; personal beliefs or motives are opaque to me, and I express that recognition as clearly as I can. Newimpartial (talk) 15:51, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish - I see it in the spirit of Comment on content, not on the contributor - it is the content that is transphobic, not the contributor, or at least that is how I see it. Springee was talking about motives, but I wouldn't presume. Newimpartial (talk) 16:32, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Aircorn - I didn't think this needed to be pointed out, but Crossroads' filing against me was entirely unrelated to this one. In that instance, I acknowledged my mistake with respect to the page restrictions at Kathleen Stock, reverted myself, and haven't done anything similar since (it was difficult for me even to find my actual mistake, given the shotgun nature of his filing). Apart from Crossroads' desire to find fault with my editing (see below), I don't see any connection between the two aside from the aesthetic commitments editors may be feeling. Newimpartial (talk) 19:45, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Concerning the IP contribution below, the hyperbole used here reflect the same POV and are stylistically reminiscent of an IP that contributed to the recent RfC on the J. K. Rowling lead . This IP was subsequently taken to ANI by Bodney. The IP has offered a very peculiar mangled quote (attributed to me) on both occasions, this time and in November. I never have and never would say that I "can't wait until every last homosexual is dead and buried" - that is a misquote that almost inverts the meaning of my comment (one I made several years ago). In the ANI discussion, I concluded that To have seen that quote, the person behind the keyboard was almost certainly either (1) a participant in old gender debates, since indef-blocked or otherwise departed (there are a few of those) or (2) someone acting as a MEATPUPPET who was pointed towards old debates by one of their participants (or bystanders). I stand by that analysis, and would therefore propose that the FRINGE POV comments of this IP be given very little WEIGHT, if any. Newimpartial (talk) 21:10, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dtobias - the simple difference between my situation and that of Maneesh is that, in the two years since the diff you are talking about, I have resolved to, and actually have, stopped responding with queer activist sloganeering even when acutely provoked (something about personal growth). Maneesh has today expressed his unwillingness to change his approach, however.

I have also given voice to additional thoughts here in response to further commentary by the IP; you might be surprised to see that they overlap with some of your own observations.Newimpartial (talk) 00:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade: Maneesh was first notified of the GENSEX discretionary sanctions in January 2020, by Doug Weller. It is not that they were unaware of the sanctions until recently, just that the 12-month period has lapsed. And Maneesh's response to the notice was not any kind of surprise or repentance, but to ask Sideswipe9th, "to what end?" That isn't something I often hear from editors who intend to modify their behavior. (And neither is Please do go out there and do your best to ban me if you think your efforts will be successful - this also was following, though not in direct response to, the DS notice renewal). Newimpartial (talk) 14:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, the first of the diffs Black Kite linked below was made after Maneesh responded to the DS reminder. In other words, the disruption continued after the DS notification. Newimpartial (talk) 20:13, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@RegentsPark - I completely agree with your insight that consensus on terminology is critical. However, it is very difficult (if not impossible) to have productive discussions with editors who engage in the tactics of moving the goalposts, as Sideswipe9th has documented, and who deny that large components of the RS literature (such as the MEDRS on transgender health) need to be considered in topics, like Sex differences in medicine, where they are of quite obvious relevance. Newimpartial (talk) 02:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Maneesh

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Maneesh

Crossroads has done a far far more detailed breakdown than I can motivate myself to do here. I apologize to Crossroads for this activity taking up time that could be used for their continued valuable contributions to WP. Crossroads has almost certainly done better counting of reverts etc., all I can say to cover all points is that I keep an awareness of revert count rules and do not intentionally violate them or even like to edge up to them, generally taking things to talk. Point by point as tersely as possible, not one of NewImpartial's claims has any merit:

On WP:GENSEX

1. "..individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender." No individual has been discussed anywhere here, all the edits are focused on biology and medicine.

2."...systemic bias faced by female editors..." Don't see that here.

Transwomen are male. If someone finds that claim impolite, I recommend not bringing things to the point of someone else having to tell you that on the talk page of an article titled Sex differences in medicine. No one is plastering it in anyone's face, but it is necessary to make in these cases when discussions veer into absurdity. You cannot escape the fact that humans are a gonochoric species, and that trans-identification is one thing and sex is quite another. If wp tries to censor claims like "transwomen are male", it will be impossible make good quality articles on things like Sex differences in medicine, as editors will try to use mealy mouthed language to obfuscate the reality of sex-imbalanced or sex-specific illnesses. MEDRS in all these cases uses male/female man/woman men/women synonymously (just like the english you read in the news). To those who don't want to hear such claims, do not bring discussions to the point where the validity of such claims has to be discussed. I will not use mealy mouthed obfuscation in my edits around the important topic of sex differences.

Removal of sourced article content to comply with the POV noted above.

Revert-warring that preceded the above outburst.

This was removed by crossroads eventually, it was an odd specific claim about transmen (who are female) can suffer from ovarian cancer (obviously). That fact does not need to be in the article (as you would have to duplicate the lists in a nonsensical way for each condition) since the article is about sex differences. A fundamental attribute across all MEDRS is that there are only two sex categories: male and female, if you are uncomfortable discussing which categories trans-identified people belong to, do not discuss them.

More of the revert-warring, over the same WP:GENSEX issue.

This was a super simple straight forward case and not a bold edit. The section titles use "men" and "women",almost each and every line about each illness uses man/men and woman/women. Mere inspection will show you how the underlying RS, overwhelmingly, use man/women men/women male/female synonymously as is standard in MEDRS. There is no case for objecting to simply make the two lines underneath the section titles consistent with the entire article. This was explained crystal clear in the talk page and the opposing editor was simply denying what was in front of their eyes. The edit is justified purely in terms of keeping the obvious consistency within the article and needs nothing else.

Maneesh promoting the same POV in the Talk page of Man.

An obscene claim. The talk discussion highlighted the "definitional dilemma" the RS discuss in trans-identification (there are many definitions). If such a claim should be in Man, there needs to be a claim to relate to man/men. Claims about prevalence also have to be supported (this is in the talk page). The best that could be found was in Gynecologic Care of the Female-to-Male Transgender Man (139 cites), Table 1 provides this definition: "Transgender Man Biologic female who gender identifies as a male". That's a very sensible definition and links the concept back to man and ensures that the reader knows that the all the discussion about biology of men does not apply at all to transgender men.

Maneesh revert-warring against consensus and ONUS to promote the same POV in the article text of Man.

No revert count rules were violated here to my knowledge and this change is now in the article. The sentence reads as an obscene euphemism given the para above is a detailed description of male anatomy and biology.

Maneesh editing the Man article to erase the mention of transgender men and women (text that was previously arrived at through consensus on Talk).

The reason is given, namely doesn't relate back to the article man and rather vacuous. The complaint here seems to merely be that this edit was made.

Maneesh opening a discussion on Talk:Man by equating gender identity with mental delusions.

The edit does not mention "gender identity" or any delusion, that's all that is needed verify that this complaint is meritless.

proposed article text for Man that would replace references to trans men and trans women with some men identify as as women and some women identify as men - I have added this here because I referred to it in response to Springee, below.

Totally appropriate suggestion that invokes the (plural of) the article title and supported by RS provided earlier in this post.

As for the claims here about being notified of sanctions earlier, the notification says clearly: " It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.", I generally stop reading right about there as I am quite confident in the integrity of my contributions. Why NewImpartial is suggesting on this page that "...Maneesh's response to the notice was not any kind of surprise or repentance..." is baffling. Maneesh (talk) 21:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

EDIT: Newimpartial keeps adding material that I have better things to do than to keep falsifying. One point is a plain denial of reality:

"Later, Maneesh makes the unsubstantiated claim that MEDRS in all these cases uses male/female man/woman men/women synonymously (just like the english you read in the news) - that isn't likely to be true, and certainly isn't self-evident."

This is a simple flat out ignorance of MEDRS and English. Look at a public facing infographic of the NIH's Office of Women's Health Research and the way the "sex" points use "women" and "men" while the sex categories defined at the top are "female" and "male"; it's because they are synonyms and that is common knowledge. It is almost a creative exercise to find the best way to show how absurd the claim is. Let's take a look at occurrences of "men" and "women" ("males" and "females" if you are curious) in the journal Biology of Sex Differences in the last few years what do you see? Is anyone really surprised to see so many instance of those words there? No one should be because this is how the everyone I know writes and talks in both day-to-day language and virtually all MEDRS (textbooks, journal articles, clinical trials etc. etc.) involving humans. How anyone could take NewImpartial's claims seriously beggars belief. Maneesh (talk) 01:23, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Black Kite's claim that I or my comments are "leaning towards negative views of other groups - in this case trans, intersex or non-binary people" is obscene slander. How people identify has *no bearing* on matters regrading sex and I am certain I know much much more about intersex conditions than this user. It would be nonsensical to have "negative views" to intersex people given the umbrella term refers to people with a variety of conditions. Maneesh (talk) 09:06, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Black Kite's reply does nothing to address his slander, there is is absolutely no aggression in my words. Maneesh (talk) 09:45, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

RegentsPark claims that this diff is problematic. It is an obvious truth, far more general than the folk notion of gender identity, anyone can identify as anything they like and there is generally nothing wrong with that. The original sentence "There are also intersex people who may identify as either female or male." is vacuous and suggests that the vast majority of intersex people are not plainly either male or female (they are!). RP also is confused about the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation and clearly has no understanding of GI in patients with DSDs. How regressive the entire tone of this discussion is. There is just no merit to the idea that the diff is problematic, it's an obvious truth about identities. Maneesh (talk) 16:57, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

WOW, if any user is reading this way-too-long discussion, just look at the quote the IP editor alluded to and crossroads found. Virtually nothing NewImpartial has said here has made any sense, I now understand the mentality of who I am dealing with. What a shame if WP collectively can't see what is going on here. Maneesh (talk) 19:44, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Crossroads

Disagreeing with Newimpartial is not an offense, which is what most of these diffs consist of. Newimpartial actually was one against many regarding many of them and engaged in their own poor behavior. And a case of injudicious wording or frustration is not sanction worthy. Diff by diff:

1. I wouldn't word it so directly myself, but the sex and gender distinction is real and important, and the topic of sex differences in medicine cannot be edited or even understood without clear thinking on what the biological trait of sex is. And while in most contexts only the social gender is relevant, medically, the biological sex of a trans woman is... well, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. Some may be uncomfortable filling in that answer, but medicine is not for the fainthearted.

2. This removal is absolutely correct and removed WP:UNDUE weight. We don't interrupt every sentence about sex differences on Misplaced Pages to give a shout-out to transgender and non-binary identities. Even after removal, it said these sex-specific conditions were "mostly" in women even though most medical sources would say "only" in women. Yes, contrary to what Newimpartial claimed on that talk page, it is still the norm in WP:MEDRS to use "women" to refer to adult humans of the female sex. This can be seen by searching Google Scholar for "only in women" or "pregnant women", in quotes, and selecting "since 2021": Newimpartial continues to argue tendentiously in that discussion, attacks Maneesh by saying he is playing a shell game, then doubles down and attacks GoodDay, saying, Don't be a mug.

3 & 4. As I explained, it is normal in MEDRS to refer to "men" and "women" in reference to the sexes, so there's nothing POV about these edits. "In female humans" does read oddly and sort of alien. While BRD would have been better, Newimpartial is also guilty of edit warring in the same timeframe as the edits they reported here (), and against 3 different editors rather than 1, so any "guilt" logically applies to them as well.

5. This is the same thing I addressed in diff 1. Biological sex is a huge aspect of the topic of being a man for the vast majority of them, and we need to be able to speak about that and about what may be WP:UNDUE in that regard. The article still mentions transgender men even now, regardless, without objection from Maneesh.

6. Hypocrisy. This is the same series of edits I mentioned under point 3 & 4 where it was Newimpartial who was edit warring against three editors, with a fourth editor having spoken against it on the talk page, and they only stopped when they ran up against WP:3RR. Maneesh removed it once. And WP:ONUS actually says that The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content, which means that the onus was on Newimpartial to get consensus for that material.

7. This material was unsourced (see WP:BURDEN) and poorly written, such as by erroneously treating intersex conditions (a.k.a. disorders of sex development) as some sort of third sex. Things are supposed to be sourced to establish WP:Verifiability and WP:WEIGHT.

8. I'll grant that this was a poorly thought out comparison, but in context it was about the aforementioned misleading claim about intersex that has since been removed from the article without objection. It said they can "identify as" female or male, which is true of anyone, and not even clarifying the existence of gender identity, just throwing around "identify". "Identify" can indeed mean lots of things to people unfamiliar with gender discourse, and we are supposed to write understandably for them.

The "additional comments" links the exact same diffs already discussed, and there Newimpartial claims they can speak on behalf of "trans editors", even though there is a diversity of views in the trans community about how to conceptualize who they are, their biology, and their past. Questions the ready evidence that trans people exist is a dishonest framing of this discussion where, in response to the 'crime' of Maneesh adding "citation needed" tags to unsourced text, Newimpartial engages in self-righteous grandstanding and calls the tagging "transphobic", despite Springee's good explanation of why citing that is a good idea.

This seems to be an attempt to remove an opponent from the topic area. Newimpartial's tendentiousness, edit warring, and creating a chilling effect on discussion of biological sex is what is disruptive. Crossroads 07:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Ping RegentsPark.

Regarding Newimpartial's diff 11, Maneesh is correct that the overwhelming majority of MEDRS regularly use "men" and "women" when referring to adults of male and female sexes. Newimpartial's "MEDRS" is a cherry-picked article in an open access journal making an explictly "right great wrongs" argument for language reform, among other things. Frankly, the position that in ordinary medical articles we can't simply say "men" and "women" to refer to sex, as the vast majority of people do, without getting caught up in exceptions, is held by very, very few of the authors of MEDRS as shown by how they write, and is therefore WP:FRINGE. And this has been the norm on Misplaced Pages since the beginning as well, including at sex differences in medicine, as documented at WP:GNL. It is Newimpartial and Sideswipe9th who are being disruptive at Talk:Sex differences in medicine by ignoring that prior consensus and making a huge deal out of a routine additional use of wording that is already on the page (!) and WP:FILIBUSTERing removal of a random shout-out to transgender identity. Literally disrupting good editing. And this sort of obstructionism in transgender articles is rampant. It is very unfortunate to see it spread into medical articles that have nothing to do with gender dysphoria. It is no wonder that an editor would get frustrated when faced with this behavior. Crossroads 03:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Quick follow-up to Sideswipe9th: No, a decades-long sitewide implicit (and explicit) consensus across thousands of medical articles cannot be overturned by two editors at one article suddenly deciding they don't like that consensus. And you seem to have missed where WP:GNL#Precision and clarity say, Do not use gender-neutral speech when it gives undue emphasis to tiny minorities and Per consensus at the WP:Village Pump, "the terminology in articles, especially medical articles, is dependent upon the support of reliable sources and it is expected that editors would use the same terminology presented in said sources." Crossroads 04:32, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Regarding Newimpartial's response to the IP, the diff where they made the statement is here. Newimpartial there stated,

In July 2017, I added content to my profile page with a collapsed section titled "p.s. ... I'm not Queer". In March 2018, "I am a homosexual female" was included. I am an avowed, proud homosexual. I never bought into GLAAD's censorship of the word, and just like lesbians reclaimed the word "dyke" and made it a declaration of lesbian pride and strength, many lesbians and gay men have also reclaimed the word "homosexual" — because homosexual is unambiguous. You can't avoid what it means, nor can you twist it around to mean something else.
Newimpartial's comment to me about homosexuals was written on 23 January 2020. He knew that I identified as a homosexual and he knew precisely what he meant when he wrote "I will be happy when the last self-avowed "homosexual" is dead and buried....". The dead giveaway (in case it went over some heads) is "self-avowed ".
So, whatever c.y.a. Newimpartial is now trying to wipe his chosen words with (I misspoke, it was misunderstood humor, blah, blah) — I don't buy it. He is quite at ease with shit-stirring, as evidenced by two recent incidents involving another editor and I: (1) What is this called?: an editor I am unfamiliar with left a message in my talk page regarding Newimpartial's reply to my comment in a Kathleen Stock article discussion; and (2) Warning: Personal attacks and casting aspersions: where I warned an editor after he made two, separate personal attacks (I could have taken the editor to AN/I, but I let people have a long rope until they finally hang themselves with it).
I am not familiar with User:Maneesh, but I familiar with Newimpartial: the logorrhea in RfCs of gender-related subjects, the tendency to use offbeat humor as a backdoor way for ridiculing what another editor says, the pushing of the WP:CIVIL envelope (particularly with WP:BAIT), and the lack of self-reflection when accusing other editors of wrongdoing. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 12:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Maneesh has been an editor in this area for a long time, for at least as long as me, so at least 2.5 years. And he's done much good work in that time. Maneesh's few instances of poorer choices of wording here are an outlier from all that time; this is not typical. Crossroads 07:34, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

I have to concur with Crossroads's detailed analysis, which was much more in-depth than I would have mustered. Newimpartial treats "transphobic" and "disagreeing with Newimpartial" as synonymous categories, and that is not okay.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:45, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by GoodDay

Why was I called a mug? I'm not a cup full of beer. GoodDay (talk) 12:51, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Sideswipe9th

Seraphimblade Maneesh was originally made aware of the sanctions in January 2020 . The diff that Newimpartial used above was my refreshing it as twelve months had passed. Not sure if that changes your view on this. Sideswipe9th (talk) 14:40, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with everything Newimpartial has said in their initial analysis. However there is some additional context I'd like to add. My first interactions with Maneesh were reverting two changes they had made to Sex differences in medicine , which changed the context of that section as I stated in the talk page . Maneesh's reply to this on the talk page was deeply offensive by stating that Transwomen are obviously also men, adult males. Whenever I attempted to point out to them the inaccuracy of that statement , I was accused of religious thinking . Newimpartial has already addressed the brief edit war that occurred on the article where Maneesh refused to acknowledge WP:BRD, which ran concurrent to a discussion on the talk page:

• My asking Maneesh to self revert
• Maneesh refusing to self revert
• My attempt at explaining BRD
• Maneesh accusing me of tendentious editing

As part of this exchange, Maneesh invited me to count the number of occurrences of "men" and "women" below each respective title out of the total number of points . However Maneesh then moved the goal posts to synonymous use of men/male and women/female within the MEDRS in the article, before extending it further to the same synonymous use in any news media while simultaneously attacking my English language skills. This is I believe what Newimpartial correctly identifies as the shell game. I stated my objection to this movement of the goal posts , however Maneesh doubled down and accused me of falsifying my claim.

I'd also like to point out that I am also not the only editor Maneesh has accused of religious thinking or editing in this topic area. I would argue that Maneesh is engaging in some very heavy WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour over the last couple of days at Talk:Sex differences in medicine, Talk:Woman, and possibly Talk:Man. Although I wasn't a participant in Talk:Man so I'll leave summarising that to another editor. In addition to making a generalised battle out of the discussions, Maneesh is also very clearly engaging in an ideological battle by casting aspersions on multiple other editors for editing on "religious grounds". As I said before, I agree with Newimpartial that a topic ban in this area is warranted as it is seemingly impossible to carry out a civil discussion with them to build consensus. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@RegentsPark, I agree completely with what you're saying on consensus building, as that is standard practice on the site. However my interactions with Maneesh over the last day, along with this conversation in July this conversation in July on Maneesh's talk page, as well as the discussion on Talk:Man which I've now read in full, and their recent contributions above lead me to the opinion that Maneesh's idea of compromise and consensus building is exactly whatever they say, and no more. If that is the case, it is very difficult if not impossible to build a consensus through any of the regular avenues. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:29, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Addendum, @RegentsPark, how can you build a compromise consensus when Maneesh has only a single acceptable outcome for the language choice in the article? Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:41, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Crossroads, you really want to lay of the hyperbole. Firstly, consensus can change. Secondly, since the creation of Sex differences in medicine back in 2003, there has never been a discussion on whether Man/Woman or Male/Female is the appropriate language to use throughout the article. This is easy to verify as the talk page has no archive, and precious few discussions. I'm also not sure you want to be linking to WP:GNL because under WP:GNL#Precision and clarity it states The sex and gender distinction may be helpful in choosing words for some subjects. and more importantly Generally speaking, prefer female and male to make statements that are exclusively about anatomy and biological sex, and for writing about non-human species. In an article titled Sex differences in medicine, I would argue that WP:GNL compels us to use male/female over man/woman. As such I'd like you to strike the accusations of tendentious editing against myself and Newimpartial made in your most recent reply. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:35, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Admins, based on these diffs , would a one way IBAN between Maneesh and Newimpartial (Maneesh at fault) also be warranted in addition to the TBAN? They're very close in content to being the transphobic attack helicopter meme. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:27, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Springee

This is a subject area I'm not overly involved with so I can't say I understand all the history. I do think that NewImpartial is too quick to assign -phobia type motives to other editors and too quick to assume their POV is the sky is blue correct one. For example in the article there was a section outside of the lead that was addressing trans- cases. The material had no citations. NewImpartial felt that was fine and actively removed CN tags. If one looks at the Talk:J._K._Rowling#Bludgeoning_of_D-preference_editors discussion where NewImpartial has been far and away the most active participant. I believe several editors complained of -phobic accusations again. A big issue with many of these topics is they are often very expansive so PROPORTION is critical. I suspect NewImpartial's understandable, good faith interest in trans topics results in a feeling that it's often one of the most critical aspects of any particular topic vs one of many and one that many readers wouldn't find significant. That is fine but they need to understand that others might not agree yet that doesn't mean they are "denying trans people" . Such accusations aren't helpful and certainly come off as POV pushing, especially when combined with bludgeoning talk page discussions. Springee (talk) 15:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

I have been careful to characterize only proposed language (or removal of content) as transphobic; personal beliefs or motives are opaque to me, and I express that recognition as clearly as I can. reads a lot like No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir, but I bite my thumb, sir. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:24, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Aircorn

This is the worst topic area in Misplaced Pages to edit in. Never have I seen so much passionate arguments based on so few policies or sources. A large part of that reason is the inability of editors to remain impartial about it. That includes some key admins (see Black Kites statement below and compare it to their one for Newimpartial here). If discretionary sanctions serve any purpose to help the encyclopaedia it is to trim the fat so that the editors in the middle can actually improve articles. But at least try and trim it from both sides. Take a look at Talk:J. K. Rowling#Response count for classic bludgeoning by the "other side". It should all really be so simple. Aircorn (talk) 19:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Black Kite. You are consistent I will give you that. Disagree with some of your other comments. Misplaced Pages is meant to be an encyclopaedia first and it is simply not true that we are inclusive. We are inclusive to certain groups and not others. Most of the time this is fine as we generally base this around reliable sources, but when it comes to politics and culture this often falls down. There are hard questions to discuss in this topic area and it is not as black and white as some editors make out. I am not arguing against a topic ban. We have discretionary sanctions for a reason and that means that editors have to be on their best behaviour. I am simply asking that we apply them evenly across all editors and look at the disruption from all directions. Aircorn (talk) 19:43, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by IP editor

I strongly second Crossroads' response and thank him for taking the time to be so thorough and detailed. I would like to add that I support topic banning Newimpartial from this area. Their primary purpose here has been to engage in battleground POV pushing that, despite its apparent good intentions of liberating one marginalised group, erases and oppresses others - particularly gays and lesbians (the latter of whom they've engaged in multiple crusades against various BLPs who dared to assert their right to exclusive same-sex attraction). This user has made no secret their personal derision against homosexuality, because it's "not inclusive"; nobody who isn't gay or lesbian (as in, actually homosexual, not bisexual persons identifying as such and such) themselves can fully understand the feelings of panic and horror and traumatic memories of the not so distant past that kind of talk conjures up. And this user, in the heat of an intense debate, once said that they "can't wait until every last homosexual is dead and buried". Then clarified they don't actually want all of us to die, they just want all of us to be genderqueer - as if that makes it okay! That is as blatant as hate speech can possibly get, and while they can deny they really meant that all they want,their editing behaviour is still effectively warfare against the very existence of homosexual people (for, if you erase biological sex, you've redefined homosexuals out of existence; the effective parallel of genocide, if the affected group were a nationality or ethnicity). 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:C2:BB5:D65F:F72A (talk) 20:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Dtobias

I agree with Crossroads' comments here. This diff is especially notable; it puts the user who initiated this request in the position of the person in the proverb who lives in a glass house and shouldn't throw stones. There is some rich irony to somebody expressing their views in this manner then attempting to tone-police others in their own expression of different views. While it's true that Newimpartial isn't literally calling for homosexuals to be dead and buried, they're calling for that identity to be erased entirely and replaced with other labels many of which are regarded as slurs by many others. It's hypocritical to do this and then go on to label others' views on gender identity to be denying the existence of a marginalized group. *Dan T.* (talk) 21:41, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Maneesh

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• It looks like most, if not all, of these diffs come from before the editor was made aware of the discretionary sanctions. Is there still a complaint there with edits made after the awareness was in place? Seraphimblade 14:18, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

• Seraphimblade Apparently first notified in January 2020 (). Black Kite (talk) 18:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

• Black Kite, that awareness would have expired in January 2021 until notified again. I am not (to put it mildly) a fan of that particular rule, and hope that the discretionary sanctions review makes it better, but as it stands now I'm not seeing how this fell under a time when the editor was, for our purposes here, "aware" as required. Seraphimblade 19:59, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, that's problematic. If the second of the diffs I highlighted below had come after the 2nd DS alert (the first one does, but that's the milder) I would definitely be suggesting a topic ban, but that particular piece of admin suggests a warning may be indicated. Black Kite (talk) 21:27, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

• This and especially this suggests to me that this is an editor who may probably should not be editing in the gender area. Black Kite (talk) 18:32, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
• This is extremely confusing. I read the entire discussion on Talk:Sex differences in medicine and came out of it thoroughly confused. On the one hand, it is true that Maneesh needs to understand that gender identity is a sensitive area and that a light touch, rather than a dismissive one, is the higher road to take. However, it is also true that Newimpartial occupies a rather large part of the discussion, perhaps to the point of bludgeoning. Perhaps, then, that high road is not as easy to take as it looks. I'm not too keen to issue warnings or bans in an area where the behavioral issues are muddy but it does seem to me that the editors participating in Sex differences in medicine (and I mean all of them) need to hash out a consensus on the terminology, shove it up there in the yellow area of the talk page, and then make everyone stick to it. --RegentsPark (comment) 02:07, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

  The second diff that Black Kite refers to is definitely problematic and @Maneesh: if you don't see why, then we do have a problem. I get what you're trying to say, but it is generally accepted today that gender identity is not a choice that an individual makes. The implication that it is, which is what your post is making, is unacceptable. If you don't see that, then I agree with Black Kite that you should probably not be editing in this area. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:27, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

  @Sideswipe9th: The usual way is to start an RfC, everyone gives their arguments, and an uninvolved editor closes it with a decision that is then binding, at least in the short term. --RegentsPark (comment) 17:08, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

  Since Maneesh is digging a deeper hole, I now think a topic ban is necessary. --RegentsPark (comment) 19:05, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

• Aircorn I'm simply being consistent. Misplaced Pages is meant to be an inclusive, collaborative editing environment and that's all that matters here. We don't tolerate racists, misogynists or homophobes here, and so it is always a concern where we see a group of editors leaning towards negative views of other groups - in this case trans, intersex or non-binary people. The second diff above that I highlighted is particularly problematic here as it echoes the sarcastic tropes of "oh, today I identify as a banana" so beloved of certain groups. Black Kite (talk) 08:26, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

• Maneesh Perhaps if you don't want to be seen as having a negative view of some groups, it might be best not to write passive-aggressive talk-page posts which appear to indicate you have such an attitude. Black Kite (talk) 09:40, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

• Maneesh If you don't see the problematic issue with those posts, especially the second one that I quoted above, then that makes me even more likely to believe that you are unsuited to edit in this area. Black Kite (talk) 10:10, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

• Generally —and nothing to do with the particulars here of which I know little atm— I don't think the word limit should be allowed to be exceeded to such an extent by multiple participants. El_C 14:17, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Bringtar

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Bringtar

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Aman.kumar.goel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Bringtar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBIP

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 11 December: Wants to apply WP:BLPCAT on a person who died centuries ago.
2. 11 December: rejects his own edit summary by telling "it removed due to failed verification and not because of BLPCAT" but the added sources supported the information
3. 11 December: Falsely claims other user is vandalizing. See WP:NOTVAND.
4. 11 December: When presented evidence of his wrongdoing, he removes discussion with edit summary: "removing false claims and lies".
5. 11 December: Edit warring to restore misrepresentation of sources and BLP violations.
6. 11 December Files a disruptive SPI at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Georgethedragonslayer in retaliation.
7. 12 December: Adds a name on List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism in violation of WP:BLPCAT; the article does not mention "Hindu"/"Hinduism".
8. 12 December: Same as above.
9. 13 December Edit wars when above additions are reverted in violation of WP:BLP and shows his lack of understanding of WP:LINKVIO.
10. 13 December: Adds a quotation to establish a conversion but the quotation does not verify his claim.
11. 13 December: Same as above; quotation does not verify conversion.
12. 13 December Edit wars to restore another name by adding 2 sources, none of which mention "Hindu"/"Hinduism", thus violating WP:BLPCAT again.
13. 13 December: Restores his another BLPCAT violation when neither sources confirm the subject's admission of conversion from Hinduism to Christianity.
14. 13 December: Showing lack of WP:AGF by alleging me of "using WP:LINKVIO at your whim".
15. 14 December: Edit warring to restore his misrepresentation, LINKVIO and BLP violations with edit summary: "undo disruption"
16. 14 December: Engages in WP:IDHT by repeating himself and shows his failure to understand WP:LINKVIO. Claims that there is no LINKVIO violation because the "youtube video is not uploaded here" on Misplaced Pages. See WP:CIR.

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Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The above diffs are recent and they show that the user does not understand that who is alive and who isn't, what the sources say, what is a personal attack, what is a WP:LINKVIO and the importance of WP:SECONDARY sources. While the user shows a clear lack of understanding of WP:BLPCAT on the mentioned articles above, he happens to be strict about the policies when the article's main subject happens to be opposite. This shows intended POV pushing.

The user is an WP:SPA with whom, together with several other editors, I have already tried enough to guide on the basics of Misplaced Pages for months but this user is unwilling to learn. Given the continued display of WP:CIR and battleground mentality, I have zero hopes with this user. Aman Kumar Goel 03:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Bringtar

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Statement by Bringtar

Statement by Vice regent

I don't see how this is an India-Pakistan issue. There have been some problematic editing at List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism and List of converts to Islam from Hinduism, where all sides have made bad edits: some have added insufficiently sourced content while others have removed sufficiently sourced content. If you click on those histories, you'll see half a dozen additional parties to this dispute (besides OP and Bringtar).VR _talk 19:38, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Bringtar

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.