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Archives

• Archive One
• Derry v. Londonderry Vote

Unsympathetic?

What is the basis for this allegation?

Heaney has made comments on Northern Ireland and expressed a distinct lack of sympathy for the Protestant Unionist community there

He's clearly unsympathetic to Unionism as a political stance. That's quite a different thing. Unless this allegation can be substantiated it should be got rid of. Palmiro | Talk 23:47, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I've removed this allegation, as noone supported it. Palmiro | Talk 10:46, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Irish wikilink

Since the page is currently blocked and I'll undoubtedly forget to fix it later: in the opening sentence Irish is linked to. This is undesirable as Irish is a disambiguation page, so I would like it changed to ]. Cheers, --Commander Keane 08:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

• Done.--Commander Keane 09:27, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Derry v. Londonderry

I count seven votes for Londonderry, two votes for Derry. Even if the three IP addresses are discounted, there is 2:1 support for Londonderry. The article is now unprotected, and will remain that way unless a revert war begins. Anyone who changes Londonderry to Derry may be reverted on sight and (Note to other administrators) should be blocked for vandalism. If this does not solve the problem, then the article will be protected again. Anyone who disagrees with my determination of the consensus should file a Request for Comment. -- Essjay · Talk 22:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

What sort of "vote" did you hold and amongst whom? Since Londonderry and Derry are both acceptable for Co. Doire in N. Ireland, the preferred usage of the subject should prevail. In this case, since Heaney is a nationalist, the usage would be "Derry". Obviously, anyone who is familiar with Ireland (except a staunch Unionist) would agree with this assessment. 9 September 2006.

Knowing the sensitivities around this issue, I thought it wise to explain a (seemingly trivial) edit. The phraseology "and therefore would call his birthplace County Derry" sounds speculative - as if we don't really know, but we just think he would - and so inappropriate for an encyclopedia. However, the link to his Nobel acceptance speech shows that he does in fact call it Co. Derry, so I am changing the text to make it factual rather than speculative. (N.B. No actual names are being changed in the article, merely the modality of the statement re. Heaney's own usage.) Vilcxjo 15:38, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

That's what I was trying to convey when I introduced that wording, but if people think that the amendment makes things clearer, fair enough. - Poetlister 17:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I just love the double standards on Misplaced Pages. We have some people who spent all day reverting any mention of the word "Derry" on this website, demanding that evidence be provided that Heaney uses this word to describe the county of his birth, while over on the Gregory Campbell (politician) article, the word "Londonderry" was used to describe the city of his birth since 00:45, 20 September 2005. I edited it today.

I also notice that there are plenty of people in Category:Natives of County Londonderry who should, by virtue of birth, be in ].--Damac 20:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Damac. I presume I'm one of the people you are referring to! As you know the agreement is that Derry for city, Londonderry for county. I stick to this (despite my personal feelings on the matter) and change Londonderry to Derry whenever I see it. Do you mean there are people born in the city that are categorised as being from the county only? Well, that's wrong obviously. Stu 20:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's wrong. My problem is that despite categories listing people from particular places, categories which have been in existence for yonks, none of the people (and I'd include you) who are always on the lookout for "County Derry" don't seem to have a problem with well-known people Gregory Campbell (politician) being described as being born in "Londonderry" (in their article) for well over a year. As I said, it's double standards.--Damac 20:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Damac, I look out for when both Derry and Londonderry have been used incorrectly. And you're assuming that I, and everyone else, have seen the Campbell article before. I see what you are getting at, people ignoring policy/comprimises annoys me too, but you can't assume people have double standards. Again, please assume good faith. On the matter of miscategorisation, I've changed a few pages in the Natives of Londonderry cat. With some it's not clear whether the author is saying they are from the city or the county. Should we assume if it says Derry they are referring to the city, and not the county? Maybe someone with more local knowledge should go through each page. Stu 20:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's funny that for some reason we're supposed to accept calling the county he is from Londonderry, but the wikipedia article is about Derry, not Londonderry.

Wrong! the article about the county is County Londonderry, the article on the city is Derry. Djegan 14:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Séamus vs. Seamus

Can anyone get an authoritive source for the spelling as Heaney uses it? Djegan

Hi, Sorry about the delay in getting back. I did a Google Images search for his name and your suspicion was correct. He signs his name without the fada so I've changed it back. http://www.soypoeta.com/imagenes/librodevisitas/heaney-seamus/firma.jpg http://www.purplehousepress.com/sig/heaney.jpg http://www.kennys.ie/News/WritersAuction/13_postscript.jpg El Gringo 15:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

His languages

So...he has written in English, Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon, right?

Gaudio 16:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Irish.--Play Brian Moore 01:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

He did a translation of Beowulf... -- the GREAT Gavini 07:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

References

Any chance of the editors here adding some more references and even citations if possible? It's a good article but definitely needs to be viewed as verifiable - references would give it that. Good work though. Cheers SeanMack 15:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment from a UCD IP address

County Derry is very obviously the correct name for the entity on historic grounds and on grounds of common usage.

The name 'County Londonderry' is a silly campaign by which Misplaced Pages has allowed itself to be hoodwinked, the city being the only entity about which there is any genuine debate.

Also - the article 'Derry-Londonderry' seems to indicate that 'County Londonderry' is thirty miles - take a look at a map folks - northwest of Belfast; quite ridiculous.

Those so strongly inclined to argue for 'County Londonderry' might at least have checked where it was...... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.172.138 (talk • contribs)

I would argue that Londonderry is also in common usage for the city.. and therein lies the crunch. That is why, by consensus, we agreed to name one region (the city) Derry and the other region (the county) Londonderry.

Historically, the city was renamed as Londonderry because of the input of the London Companies to the place. The county name followed suit, from what I remember (having been previously called County Coleraine). One aspect of the city has been renamed as Derry in recent years, largely due to the actions of Sinn Féin I believe.

As for the Derry-Londonderry article.. while I've not looked at it, I'm sure that many people have added their input to the article who are not "strongly inclined to argue for" County Londonderry. Therefore it is a nonsense to accuse solely those of one particular aspiration in this particular regard as being those who are guilty of some kind of error in regard to the distance between it and Belfast.

If there is such an error, I'd suggest you fix it instead of complaining about it. --Mal 07:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Auto Peer Review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.
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  • While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 8 additive terms, a bit too much.
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 08:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Seamus Heaney is IRISH

Seamus Heaney is Irish not British, he always refered to himself as being Irish, and was an Irish nationalist.--padraig3uk 13:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry to contradict - but the facts seem clear: Seamus Heaney was born and lived his early life in the United Kingdom (ie. Northern Ireland). Self-reference has nothing to do with it, people don't choose their nationalities.

I'm sorry but they do in the north, therefore he's Irish. Derry Boi 11:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Obviously people have different feelings about what they call themselves. Seamus Heaney does, I believe have an Irish passport so there is not debate there. He is, of course, Northern Irish too. I think he has publicly stated that he is not British, though this doesn't mean that he techincally isn't.

As for the Irish version of his name, unless there is some source that he has himself used that version then it must be removed. NotMuchToSay 13:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this should be done in general for all "Irish names" on Misplaced Pages; unless there is proof that he has used that translation himself it should not be included. Demiurge 13:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Some of you need to look into the terms of the Good Friday Agreement Vintagekits 14:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed for his name?

Someone put the "citation needed" tag for his Irish name. Despite the little error in spelling Séamus/Seamus, is citation really needed for his name? If so, how about the rest of the people with names other than English, like Mao Zedong and Kazem Al Saher?Jaimebienlesfruits 13:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• You can trivially verify those two names by searching Google. In contrast, there are no google results when searching for either "Séamus Ó hEighnigh" or "Séamas Ó hEighnigh". I've left a note on User talk:Derry Boi asking for a source, as this was the user who originally added it in. Demiurge 13:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
• Seamus Heaney was born in an English speaking country. There are no native speakers of Irish in Northern Ireland (although there are people, including Seamus, who can speak it). The other differnce with Mao Zedong is that Seamus Heaney was Christened "Seamus Heaney". If we go down this road, why don't we give the English translation of "Bairbre de Brún"?! NotMuchToSay 18:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Firstly Séamas is perfectly acceptable, in fact Séamus is a slighly Anglicised version of Séamas.

Secondly, as for there being no native speakers of Irish in Ireland (north and south), you are completly wrong. My cousin is four and knows absolutely no English, she is a native speaker of Irish. And there are many like her as well. As for the source, thats the Irish translation of his name. Derry Boi 20:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Do you have a source that he has ever used it himself? If not, it's WP:NOR. Demiurge 20:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I never said anything about no native speakers of Irish in Ireland - there are of course in the Republic. Irish died out as a language with native speakers in Northern Ireland in the 20th Century, though if you have an example of someone who is native speaker due to the current revival, then I'm not going to argue with you. But to be honest, this is all window dressing, the Irish translation of his name is not needed unless he uses it, otherwise we might as well translate every Irish person's name, including Ian Paisley. NotMuchToSay 21:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to sort the Irish language thing out.

I had a look on the Irish language version of Misplaced Pages and it starts off:

"File a rugadh i gContae Doire in Éirinn é Seamus Justin Heaney (13 Aibreán 1939 a rugadh é). "

It doesn't mention any Irish version of his name! Now you could possibly argue that an Irish language version might be valid there (I'm undecided) but on the English language version of Misplaced Pages, to use a version of his name, for which there is no source (in any language) would be silly.

As Heaney is from Ulster, why don't we have a Ulster Scots version of his name?

I think that for the name of any person, if they are generally known by another name (in the same, pr any other language) that name should be quoted - either in the top of the article, or if less common, further.

Just because Heaney is Irish doesn't mean his name should be translated in the Irish 'language'. It would be the same as giving an English translation for someone with an Irish-language name.

You'll note that Barbara Brown doesn't appear anywhere on the Bairbre de Brun page.

This is not a political comment. Personally, seeing "Co Londonderry" on this page looks odd, although I recognise Misplaced Pages's rules. Similarly, "Derry" on the Gregory Campbell page also looks weird. NotMuchToSay 18:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, if someone exclusively uses their Irish name or English name only (e.g. Bairbre de Brún, Éamon Ó Cuív, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Seamus Heaney) then that's all we should use; we shouldn't go making up translations like "Barbara Brown"/"Ed O'Keefe" which have never been used to identify them. If someone uses one name primarily and it can be verified that they have used the other version on at least one occasion then we should mention the other name too (e.g. Michael Collins can be shown to have used "Mícheál Ó Coileáin", Bertie Ahern can be shown to have used "Parthalán Ó hEachthairn", Mary McAleese can be shown to have used "Máire Mhic Ghiolla Íosa".). Demiurge 18:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree totally - also, see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English) NotMuchToSay 21:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of name

Hope someone will provide (on the page of this entry, not here) phonetics for this name. I have heard "Shawmuss Hayney" (in my best attempt at phonetics) or "Shaymuss Hayney" or the same with Hayney->Heeney or the initial "S" in "Seamus" hissed instead of softened into "Sh". Thanks! Carrionluggage 00:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Stations

This article lists "Stations" a 1975 text published by Ulsterman Publications in Heaney's bibliography. I think there might be some confusion here, as there is a poem he wrote in 1975 called "Stations of the West" and a critical essay written by someone whose name escapes me at the moment called "Stations: Seamus Heaney and the Sacred Sense of the Sensitive Self." I'm pretty sure that this article is referring to the former reference (there's also "Station Island", of course), but I'm not sure it merits inclusion, as it is a singular poem as opposed to a published collection. I'm going to remove it from the article (the Nobel Prize website doesn't list "Stations" as part of Heaney's bibliography either, for what it's worth. Also, I've been moving some of his articles to different titles (i.e. Seeing Things (Heaney) to Seeing Things (poetry)). The article can still be accessed from the original title by redirect, though. I've changed "Heaney" to "poetry" per WP:MOS. Cheers all Gaillimh 22:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography

The Poetry section of the Bibliography contains individual poems and collections of poems. I think a bibliography should mean 'books' and suggest removing entries like 'Blackberry Picking'. I suggest using the template {{cite book}}. I'll start implementing this in a few days unless persuaded otherwise. PeterGrecian 13:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

My recent edits

Hi all! I saw a prompt to discuss my changes on the talk page first, so here is my explanation for changing Heaney's residence from "Londonderry" to "Derry" - he is referred to as being from Derry in the biography sections of Opened Ground and District and Circle. This leads me to believe that he considers himself a Derryman. As the subject labels himself from Derry, so should the encyclopedia article about the man follow suit. In addition, not that the Nobel Prize Committee is any sort of authority on Irish geography, his biography there indicates that he is from Derry (please see the site here). I provide this link to further support my statement that Derry is what Heaney himself identifies with. Also, as he currently resides in Dublin, I'll be adding that into the intro as well. Cheers! gaillimh 05:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

1. See footnote
2. See footnote
3. See footnote
4. See footnote

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