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Issa

There's reportedly a reference to the dynasty being taken over by Harla of the Issa after the death of Imam Gasa. I couldnt recover it however editors with interests in the subject should look into it. Magherbin (talk) 09:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Ive seen all your contribution, your are abadir harari , i see why you are on wiki trying to change the history to fit your narrative. Aurelius5150 (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Found it, never mind. Magherbin (talk) 01:14, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

i left a reference yet you don't want to read it, you are acting oblivious and creating this talk page as a paper trial as a fake attempt to look like you want to know, i left references read it Aurelius5150 (talk) 06:26, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Which references are you referring to? Didier Morin? I believe thats a reference I initially added to the article hence I dont need to look at it, i'm aware of what it states. Where does it state Gasa descends from the Issa clan of Somalis? You've also removed an abundance of references which I will restore. Magherbin (talk) 10:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

i provided the correct information and references , to the issas of somalis, you know its and you are turing a blind eye on purpose Cerulli, Enrico. Islam Yesterday and Today translated by Emran Waber. Istituto Per L'Oriente. p. 214. and if you want the historical book read Al-Makrizi, Taqi al-Din Ahmad. Tarikh al-Mujahidin or Paulitschke, Carl. Harar: Geschichte der Stadt Harar und des Harergebiets. Vienna: Alfred Hölder, 1888 Aurelius5150 (talk) 11:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

You have an agenda Aurelius5150 (talk) 11:34, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

you are not even reading the referencing's proving it, and you just removing it to fulfil your agenda. you're pushing this habesha racists agenda Aurelius5150 (talk) 11:37, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Quote the text that states Gasa was descended from an Isa Somali also quote the text that says Imam's family are dardora or Darod, the Darodora imams were in Aussa before Adal moved their capital to Aussa. If there's no text that says this, it will be removed as its WP:OR. Magherbin (talk) 11:49, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

i added multiple references to the statement of him being Issa, very pathetic to remove facts because you cant read other references. look for a better excuse . Afars referered to any learned islamic man as Darood from somali origin , read the books , you have an agenda and it becomes clear with each fake excuse Aurelius5150 (talk) 11:57, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Imam's of Harar were not Darod of Somali origin, nobody states this not even Enrico Cerulli which you referenced. Now like I stated above before you arrived on this article the dynasty was overtaken by the Isa towards the end of Aussa state this was mainly the Isa who aligned with the previous Harla rulers. Looking at your reference of p.214 from Enrico Cerulli's book it does not state Gasa was a Garad of Isa, the text is not referring to Gasa but another individual named Imam Muhammad ibn Garad Isa, he reigned between (1628-1636), for the start of the list of Garad Isas see p.218 . The Gasa individual died years before in 1584 see p.212 footnotes from same source . Hence im removing that claim of yours that Isa somali garad named "Gasa" moved the capital to aussa from Harar, this is not backed by the source. However you're free to elaborate on the consecutive isa Garads who had taken control of the Imamate from the 1600s as pointed out above. The Didier source in place beside the statement "After the transfer of the government seat to Aussa by Imam Muhammed Gasa a garad of Issa" you had added also doesnt claim Gasa was a Garad of Isa, on p.134 that too mentions a few Garad Isas post 1600s long after the death of Gasa. Magherbin (talk) 12:49, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Darod of Somali origin, is what is referred in the Afar book , how they referred to learned Islamic Somali people regardless of tribe who were arabized, im giving you the context.

You are cherry picking now, you dont know the linage and family try of Gasa and his descendants, the references you are reading refers to that of Imam Muhammad ibn Garad Isa that reigned between (1628-1636) is a descendant of Gasa, relative to Adan ibn Garad Isa who was the father of Umar Din , and the son of Emir Siddiq/Malāq Ādan Ṣadiq who died in 1056 Hegira (1646-1647 AD), Adan ibn Garad ruled for less than year after his father death, then Emir Ahmed the son of Wazir Abram took over. Finally Imām ʿUmardīn Ādan ibn Garad Isa son of Adan ibn Siddiq/Malāq Ādan Ṣadiq is a direct descendant of Imām Maḥamed "Jāsa" Ibrahim Garad. Since you cant read arabic referencing and only english go to page of Cerulli, Enrico. Islam Yesterday and Today translated by Emran Waber, 461. Read that page, go back to the afar book page 134, and read the timeline. Im amazed that since you dont know the history, and cant read arabic therefore the history of it is null and void to you , amazing how you are allowed to even edit wikipedia pages , fake historian. Aurelius5150 (talk) 15:37, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

What you're implying is that since one of Gasa's successors is a Garad of Isa then he must be a Garad of Isa thats WP:SYNTH, no source calls Gasa a Garad of Isa hence its WP:OR, furthermore Dardorti Imams of the "Garad of isa" are not even related to Gasa's lineage they came into conflict with the Imams of Harar as this source states clearly "a first group arrived in the region following Muḥammad b. Ibrāhīm Gāsā in 1577 and was then followed by other allies and supporters of the imām in 1585; their arrival in the region created tension with the Arab imāms (Dardōra) and with the Haralla already established in the region. Magherbin (talk) 15:50, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Im not implying, im stating a fact. I gave you the reference and the direct line of decadency and you are aware of it, you are doing everything in your will to discredit it his origins, you have an agenda. You cant even read the original Arabic text and and ignore all facts. You are now going on reiterating what added in the article said Dardorti having conflicts with Gasa, to make yourself look like you have a win, you are twisting this as if you found an inconsistent , you are very shameless Aurelius5150 (talk) 12:24, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Read the references properly, continuing to insert original research violates Misplaced Pages policy. Magherbin (talk) 15:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Since you're continuing to blank referenced content, discuss your changes on the talk page and make a draft here. Magherbin (talk) 16:02, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Harari?

Who added that, there is no evidence of the dynasty being Harari — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ingoman (talk • contribs) 02:44, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm assuming you just create articles with little knowledge on the subject. Magherbin (talk) 20:05, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Harari refers to the inhabitants of Harar which have no connection to the Imamate of Aussa.

You should not conflate an ethnic group confined within the walls of a city surrounded by Oromos and Somalis to the rulers of the kingdom. Any attempt of this will be removed. Replayerr (talk) 21:40, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Imamate of Aussa is not a modern state, dont misconstrue it with the migrating populations of the 15th and 16th century Somali/Oromo. Magherbin (talk) 21:52, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

As I said before. The Harari identity is surrounded on the town of Harar not Asaita/Aussa. The Harari(Abeddarite) claim a different lineage to that of the Haralla clans(non-Abeddarite) that had inhabited the region according to report missions. Replayerr (talk) 22:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

What is the reference for what you just stated? Provide the page number and author. Magherbin (talk) 22:10, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Will you also provide a page number and a reference of the Imamate being “Harari”. The Harari ethnic group are confined within the walls of Harar. The Haralla who have been assimilated to the ethnic groups such as the Afar had recorded their lineage to be apart of the “Darood” branch which is well known to have been a Somali tribe. This has been researched by the reputed IslHornAfr mission who had visited the region. Replayerr (talk) 22:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

There's multiple references stating its Harari here is one see p.486 . If you read Sara's text she states Darod arent originally Somali, see p.20 . Magherbin (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Page 20 relating to the Darood had already stated that as an assumption not a fact set in stone and regarded. The audacity to even question whether they are fake is as fake as the lineage Hararis claim to Aw Abadir. Many notable Darood sub-clans were already mentioned in the Futuh at that time.

According to the translated manuscripts, they descend from Darood. This is not the “Abadir” lineage that the Hararis traditionally claim to begin with and regards to the “multiple sources”, you had sent, there have been no citations attributed to it that could be referenced.

Stop sending assumptions and actually send clear-cut sources that are legitimate not hypothesis with no valid reference to documents dating to this period ;) Replayerr (talk) 22:40, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Its the Dardora imams who claim Darod descent but Harla people were a different ethnic group who were assimilated by the Somalis, secondly Gasa who moved the capital from Harar to Aussa was not part of the Darod lineage which had established itself in Aussa since the 13th century. Its noteworthy that Abadir a supposed forefather of Harari did settle in a place called Gasa which the Imam of Aussa is named see p.32 . Magherbin (talk) 22:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Regarding to your source about Harbeson. I read into it very deeply and I see know citations(manuscripts are an example) to consolidate the attribution to that ethnic group. Do you have any other sources? Replayerr (talk) 23:38, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

No* Replayerr (talk) 23:39, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I’ll make it easier for you to understand. I can write an article claiming Harar originally belonged to the Italians but I will need proof to back this otherwise it falls within an illogical fallacy known as the burden proof. You yourself, proof-read sources related to the Ajuraan and removed them! Replayerr (talk) 23:49, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

This isnt rocket science the rulers of Harar moved to Aussa and founded Imamate of Aussa. The other source is from Nordic Africa Institute, see 37 of 54 . Ajuraan are not related to this article not sure what you mean by that. Magherbin (talk) 23:53, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I will read this source, hoping to find a citation/reference that has come to this conclusion. Replayerr (talk) 09:34, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Then we have concluded that the Dardora Imams are of Darood lineage and that will be included in the article but if you question whether the Darood are Somali or not, you can take that to the Darood article. I don’t have any issues with this. Replayerr (talk) 10:57, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The term Gasa was the nickname of Ahmed ibn Ibrahim, it had no relation to any town referred as such. Replayerr (talk) 11:12, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

This isnt about Dardora Imams since they were not founders of the Imamate of Aussa's (Gasa line). Are you conflating Ahmed ibn Ibrahim with Muhammad Gasa? Ahmed the former leader of Adal was not nicknamed "Gasa". The founder of the Imamate of Aussa was "Imam Muhammed Gassa bin Ibrahim bin Umar" who reigned in 1577 he is not to be conflated with the 42nd emir of Harar "Imam Ahmed bin Ibrahim AlGazi", see full list of emirs on p.106 . Magherbin (talk) 16:01, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Common Languages

Gēy Sinan is known as the language of Harar not Aussa. I will revert this edit to its original state given that there is no proof to back this. Replayerr (talk) 22:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

There's no reference stating Imamate was of Isa origin unfortunately we dont accept original research. Magherbin (talk) 22:46, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

As I said before, stop acting childish. The “Harari” are not mentioned once in any documents. Another editor who has been involved in this article has dissucssed that a single dialect was spoken in the country of Adel which was different. Replayerr (talk) 23:04, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

You're simply ignoring the references I cited, dont waste my time. Magherbin (talk) 23:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Harla was spoken but Harari wasn’t. It isn’t that hard to understand. Replayerr (talk) 23:25, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

What language did the Harla people speak? I can change it to Harla instead of Harari. Magherbin (talk) 23:31, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The Harari identity had formed within the confines of the city of Harar. Their distribution didn't extend to Aussa. We can have a discussion about Harla but it being labelled as Harari is disinformative information given that they were never stated as such but as 'Haralla'. Replayerr (talk) 09:44, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Get consensus before adding content. This is like stating Isa were not allowed in towns but are confined to the nomadic lifestyle. Enrico Cerulli states Imamate was run by semitic people that ran the Emirate of Harar see p.387 . The new content you added isnt helpful either since it discusses the name of Aussa, the article is strictly about the Imamate not Aussa itself. Magherbin (talk) 12:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

"This is really an important success on the part of the Emirs of Harar, who not only did well in keeping their State standing (the only survival of the old Semitic - language speaking Muslim Kingdom which after the Imamate, fell entirely in the hands of the Dankali), but resuscitated with the new Islamized Oromo tribes."

Nowhere does it state that the Harari language was spoken but that a Semitic language was spoken. Replayerr (talk) 12:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Thats hilarious but what if it did state that? You would request proof and try to remove it am I right? Magherbin (talk) 12:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You will only list assumptions that aren’t set in stone. If you have solid proof that the Harari language was spoken(which is confined within the walls of Harar at that point due to the Oromo invasions). Replayerr (talk) 12:50, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I will include it in the Aussa page but the capital was known and recorded to be Aussa Gurele by records such as maps and old books Replayerr (talk) 12:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I removed Harari from the intro since you dont believe Harla=Harari for some reason. Based on my research the Harla proper were not semitic, their semitic aspect is the result of Harari, thats why Harari makes more sense since this was a semitic dynasty. Yes please include the Aussa naming in the proper article, lets stick to relevant content which is on topic. Imams and Sultans of Adal are believed to have spoken Harari language not sure about Aussa but its basically the same state since it succeeds Adal see for example p.28-29 . Magherbin (talk) 17:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Reversion of content removed

Most of the content removed had citations attributed to the likes of Enrico Cerulli who had translated Arabic language documents during this period. I will be reverting this changes unless a valid point has been given. I find it appalling that a pivotal part of the instability of the Imamate of Aussa has been removed. Replayerr (talk) 09:36, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The same Cerulli who states this dynasty is Harari which you're opposing on the article? The other editor added information while removing content thats why I reverted it until I could look into the source. When there is a dispute you discuss your changes on the talk page, make a draft here and gain consensus thats how it works. Magherbin (talk) 12:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The current edit seems much better now and has more content. I will refine it and include the foreign encounters the Imamate had at a future date. Replayerr (talk) 14:05, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I will be altering the layout of the page soon

There is alot of information surrounding this magnificent kingdom which I will write about soon!😁 Replayerr (talk) 11:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Be careful of user "Magherbin" , he is distorting history to fit his narrative

This user ignores references and facts, he wont read the actual Arabic like d Al-Makrizi, Taqi al-Din Ahmad. Tarikh al-Mujahidin which were recording the historical facts at the time. He has already admitted to not knowing anything related to the mater of Imamate of Aussa, initially discrediting anything https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Aurelius5150#c-Magherbin-20230409030000-Aurelius5150-20230409022200, and reporting anyone who doesnt agree with him. If he removes your works , report him Aurelius5150 (talk) 12:30, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Interesting, it seems like there is revisionism going on around this article? Replayerr (talk) 12:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Magherbin wont accept sources recorded from the era of the historical events and taking his sources from 21st Ethiopian imperial point of view to push a sematic narrative. Ignores references because he cant read arabic, even when evidence is provided in english he ignores it and hides history Aurelius5150 (talk) 12:54, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Are you stating the imperial Ethiopianists do not know about the Imamate of Aussa? They're actually a very good source since they were in conflict with the Adalites. Magherbin (talk) 14:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The Aussa Imamate and Ethiopians actually had amicable relations during the 17th century built on the fact they both had a mutual enemy which was the introduction of Catholicism by Portuguese Jesuits . This political atmosphere wasn’t the same as it was during the conflicts prior between Adal and Ethiopia. Therefore I wouldn’t pile on their sources fully until several background checks are made. Replayerr (talk) 14:54, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure you would prefer to cherry pick. Thats not how we source here. Magherbin (talk) 14:56, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Where have I ever cherry-picked on this article? I only abide by the truth provided and I will not allow any pandering to ideologies that erase facts. The Ethiopians and Aussa Imamate both had a peaceful relationship during the 17th century which you cannot deny so you bringing up the conflict of the Adalites is contradicting. Replayerr (talk) 15:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Deleting references you dont like is cherry picking. This isnt the place for "the truth" refer to Misplaced Pages:Truth. Friendly relations or not they're views are worthy of mentioning since they had direct interactions with them. Magherbin (talk) 15:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Do you still have citations of the Harari language being one of the common spoken languages in Aussa? Replayerr (talk) 15:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

No but neither does the rest of the languages in the infobox, shall we remove all of them? I would suggest only Arabic to be included. Magherbin (talk) 15:09, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

We have mentions of the Somali, Afar, Oromo and Harla clans so we can assume those were spoken but I have not heard of Hararis(An ethnic group which has a distribution that isn't wide only existing within the Hararghe region of Oromia exisiting in their domain. The aristocracy may have spoken Arabic amongst each other. Replayerr (talk) 15:16, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

See the abundance of references stating its a Harari dynasty in the article, dont waste my time with the "Harari people came into existence in the 19th century" conspiracy theory. Magherbin (talk) 15:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I can also include references that claimed it to be a Harla dynasty, or even more extreme, Afars according to their own books.

To claim that the dynasty was of Harari origin is then verifying that Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim(Gasa) and his descendants were of all Harari. Replayerr (talk) 15:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Include all viewpoints as long as you find references for it. This is why I added attribution, its the historian claims not ours. Magherbin (talk) 15:24, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

My question is, would this then validate that Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim(Gasa) and his descendants are of Harari ethnic origin? Replayerr (talk) 15:34, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Thats not the point, its up to the readers to come to their own conclusion. We are editors on the encyclopedia hence just report what the references state. Also Gasa is not Ahmed Ibrahim. Magherbin (talk) 15:37, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Enrico Cerulli, Islam of Yesterday and of Today.

Page 200, citation 160. It states that Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim is Gasa and his descendants were the only ones worthy of using Imam as a title. Replayerr (talk) 17:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

There's no references indicating Gasa was Ahmed Ibrahim, but Ahmed Ibrahim did have a nickname such as Gragn so thats probably a mistranslation or error from either Enrico or Emran the Harari translation. Gasa is stated by a few citations that he is descended of "Gragn", hope thats clear. The line is abit confusing I agree but the title Imam doesnt start with Ahmed "Gragn" Ibrahim it predates him. Gasa died fighting the Oromo as citation 160 indicates, the other individual Gragn or Ahmed ibn Ibrahim died fighting the portuguese see Battle of Wayna Daga. Magherbin (talk) 18:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Dardora

Have we reached the consensus that they were of Darood lineage because it seems to me that we have. Replayerr (talk) 12:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Removing Original research

Im removing the statement in the article specifically "Gasa a garad of Issa" within "After the transfer of the government seat to Aussa by Imam Muhammed Gasa a garad of Issa". This is not accurate and is original research as I explained above that line is not mentioned within Enrico cerullis document that Gasa was an Isa Garad. Magherbin (talk) 14:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Edit Warring and reversion of content

I will be reverting the article to its original state. Maghrebin, you have smeared it with clear-cut revisionism related to an agenda so stop removing content that has already been cited. Replayerr (talk) 16:43, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

The Harari language was not recorded to have been spoken in Aussa. Replayerr (talk) 16:45, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

neither was Afar and Somali. Magherbin (talk) 16:49, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Aurelius5150#c-Magherbin-20230409030000-Aurelius5150-20230409022200

You declared yourself as someone who is not a historian. Anyone with basic knowledge would've have known that Somali and Afars spoken their tongues given that they were a major proportion of the population. Oromos and Harla have also inhabited the kingdoms. Hararis have not been mentioned other than 20th/21st century theorists who confuse them with the Harla.

Also you changed the link from "Darood" to "Darod" when according to Harla genology they afterwards claim

• Kabalah
• Kombe
• Kumade

All of these major Somali clans unless you claim them to be 'non-Somali' when their DNA shows that they cluster to Somalis. Replayerr (talk) 16:57, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

• Stub-Class Ethiopia articles
• Unknown-importance Ethiopia articles
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