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Islam B‑class Mid‑importance

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Islamofascism and Eurabia

I'm a bit perplex about this issue; should this article mention Eurabia and Islamofascism?

Islam and Women

I know, I know, I'm anonymous. But honestly, this section needs some work folks. I don't claim to be a scholar on this kind of thing but the current section reads more as an apology and justification section for why women exist in the legal/social status they do rather than actually discussing what the modern criticisms levelled at Islam regarding women are. I read in the paper about muslim clerics in Australia saying "Women...were 'weapons' used by Satan to control men," and shifting blame of gang rapes on 'immodestly dressed' women, and I'm curious as to why at the very least some mention of this isn't made here. It's not like there is a dirth of material from Amnesty International and other humanitarian organizations that discuss the plight of women in strictly Islamic cultures. Can you (and I refer to people who author, not people who, like me, criticize) do a little more in the arena of informing the casual reader about the details here- There's an entire paragraph (the longest and most informative of the section) that begins with "Some Islamic scholars..." that goes to great lengths to justify the Islamic position. The other paragraphs level some bland and uninformative accusations at Islam concerning women, but this justifying paragraph seems to get the most attention. I'm all for being unbiased, but I'm also for being unafraid. This section seems just plain wrong, both in presentation and content. - Anonymous

Another Anonymous person would like to say - I keep seeing documentaries on Islam being all for women, and the Qu'Ran saying everywhere that women are equal to men..... And everywhere on the news this is not the case whatsoever. And that Sheik saying women not wearing their headscarf are like uncovered meat, and that it's the woman's fault if they get raped...... It's all well and good to say such things are not what Islam is about but when you hear that in many Islamic courts, if a woman accusing a man of rape does not have a certain number of MALE witnesses SHE is charged with the crime instead and put to death. when you hear of women being killed for not covering themselves completely (in black. In the desert). when you hear of Islamic clan "courts" giving leave for a family to rape a woman as payment for some kind of wrongdoing..... These should all get a mention. Criticising the way Islam is apparently warped for the sick purposes of men in power belongs in a criticism of Islam. If it's not the way Islam is supposed to work then how about a section criticising those who take Islam and convert it to something evil, sick and degrading.

So edit it. Arrow740 18:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions for keeping cool

Just chipping in uninvited... This is for everyone, but you know who you are:

• If you're fixing vandalism, 3RR doesn't count. Otherwise it does.
• Don't revert edits because they're in bad faith unless it's obvious that they are (i.e. in general, don't).
• Don't discuss through edit summaries. That's not what they're for.
• To Aminz: stick to the subject. If you're talking about the Qur'an, don't go on a tangent about the Bible.
• To Mike18xx: you don't get to criticize other people's theses, no matter how fallacious. Better find a respected peer-reviewed scholar to do that.
• Question: Does Robert Spencer deserve a place along serious scholars? Some versions of the article give him too much importance.
• Suggestion 1: If something causes a problem and is not that important, better leave it aside for a while.
• Suggestion 2: Imagine time has turned back and you're living on 10 Sep 2001. Furthermore, imagine you haven't even heard of anything called "Clash of Civilizations". You need to criticize Islam, not to reflect current hot arguments about it.

Good luck, folks. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Pablo-flores, thanks for your suggestions. Well, actually I don't think providing the context is irrelevant. Slavery was a common feature of the ancient world. I don't think selectively picking the sentences relating to the Qur'an and obscuring the context from which these sentences are taken would be a nice idea, even if we are writing about the Qur'an. I suggest having a very small non-critical sub-section on the slavery itself which is followed by a criticism section and responses to that section. --Aminz 21:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Regards "respected peer-revied scholars" and "serious scholars", these are simply arbitraries in service of an appeal-to-authority logical-fallacy in contravention of the "notable" test. Certainly Robert Spencer thinks he's quite serious about his work, and given that his stated reason for not pursuing a further academic career was because he held the universities to be hopelessly politicized (a rather obvious fact which I think even the most brazen here would find difficult to deny with a straight face), it would be unreasonable to expect him to be favorable "peer-reviewed" given said politicization. Lastly, it's regrettably after Sept 10, 2001 now; and if you think things are rough now, just wait until that Iranian more-Nazi-than-Hitler idiot has his bomb, and Europe slides thoroughly into Eurabia--World War IV is coming fast, everybody has mid-field seating, and is just waiting for the teams to exit the locker-rooms. (If you have no idea of what that portends, pretend the internet existed in 1942, and you're trying to edit Misplaced Pages past hundreds of Goebbels fans and Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere agents. You'll have fond, fond memories, then, of how calm and peaceful things are TODAY.)--Mike18xx 05:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

the simple fact is that spencer is little more than a polemicist and propagandist, he is not an authority in any matter even remotely related to islam and so his opinion is of no significance in an encyclopaedia, except when noted to display current rhetorical trends in the lucrative field of islamophobic jingoism (just ask Craig Winn). ITAQALLAH 06:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Say, that's an interesting user-page you have, ITAQALLAH. No need to guess where you're coming from.--Mike18xx 08:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Mike, you think itaqallah is too biased to suggest Robert Spencer is biased? spencer is not a scholar. Not by any rational account. The lack of a university backing, politicized or not, makes no difference in thise case, and especially in this subject. Robert Spencer writes anti-Muslim propoganda for evangelical christians. It has no place in an encyclopedic article. I would say the same about trying to include published Muslim hate-speech here as well. Oizfar 21:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey Mike, assume good faith please. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 19:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• • "Imagine time has turned back and you're living on 10 Sep 2001." Why should we? Why should we ignore history? If you don't want to include Islamic fundamentalists' most heinous crimes or the threat Islamic fundamentalism represents, then you're writing fiction. Why not just jump back to 1938 and make believe the Holocaust never happened? (Like a certain Iranian we all know.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.59.12.138 (talk • contribs) 00:11, 18 September 2006.

I think everybody understands what I meant by "turning back time". In case you don't, I meant seeing the whole history of Islam objectively rather than through the paranoid-hysterical post-9/11 mentality. Violent Islamic fundamentalism has existed for a long time and deserves clear-headed fact-based criticism.

Mike18xx, a discussion is not conducted by calling people "Nazi" who are not strictly Nazi, by using highly flammable terms like "Eurabia" in talking about Islam, or by harassing people because of the contents of their userpage. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that you believe that any criticism is "paranoid-hysterical". Keep on ignoring the throngs of Muslims who riot at the mere rumor of a flushed Koran. See where it gets you. Likwidshoe 10:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I was just curious why Oriana Fallaci isn't mentioned in this article. She was a critic of Islam, a notable one too. But I don't really understand why we should pretend like 9/11 really happened. That doesn't make any sense at all. If it offends people that they are of the same religion as radical nutjobs, well thats too bad. Cheers - Amused Himself to Death

the quran

the section "the quran" should NOT call the main article "quran." That article has nothing to do with criticism of the quran.--Sefringle 04:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Critics also challange the claim that Islam is of devine orgin, using the verses I mentioned in the article.--Sefringle 19:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest a re-writing of this section to improve it.--Sefringle 03:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Confusion

I am a bit confused about the source of your information about Mohammeds fits. I vividly recall not ever hearing anything about Mohammed having fits or epilepsy.By the way this whole article is compromised of Information taken from sources that are relativley biased. I suggest you read some unbiased articles of islam so as to understand teh true translations of quranic verses from Arabic to English. Arabic is a very specific language so you cannot always rely on english translations. For example an iinsult in urdu ( urdu is based from arabic with the same letters too) would not make sense in enlish bacause it would go like this : you are a donkeys head (???) I mean honestly. I do not wish to make any enemys or anything so please dont think i am trying to be rude. Because im not. MOI 18:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad had to be convinced that he wasn't possessed, and nearly committed suicide multiple times. This was narrated by Aisha and can be found in Bukhari's hadith. Arrow740 00:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Said and Orientalism

I see nothing on this page justifying the passage from Said. I see no relevance to the Said passage. This is a page about criticism of Islam, not about the critics of the critics of Islam. Said has pages enough. Why is it here? Lao Wai 22:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

CHALLENGE

Below is the following section under "Criticism of Islam"

====Criticism of the methods used by critics ====

- Edward Said, in his essay Islam Through Western Eyes, stated that the general basis of Orientalist thought forms a study structure in which Islam is placed in an inferior position as an object of study. He claims the existence of a very considerable bias in Orientalist writings as a consequence of the scholars' cultural make-up. He claims Islam has been looked at with a particular hostility and fear due to many obvious religious, psychological and political reasons, all deriving from a sense "that so far as the West is concerned, Islam represents not only a formidable competitor but also a late-coming challenge to Christianity." Montgomery Watt agrees with West's historical denigration of Islam but states that the situation has become much better during the last two centuries though many of the old prejudices still linger on. Watt encourages both Muslims and Europeans to reach to an objective view of Muhammad and his religion. - - The motivations of certain outspoken modern-day critics has come under criticism as a means of indirectly dismissing the neutrality of their works. For instance, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, commenting on quotes from Daniel Pipes' such as "the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews", characterizes Pipes' works as "troubling bigotry towards Muslims and Islam".

I challenge anybody to dispute one of my accusations of the paragraph above. I accuse the section, "Criticism of the methods used by critics" as being:

• anti-Christian
• Biased
• Pro-Islamic
• Pro-Terrorist

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.112.92.249 (talk • contribs) 19:11, 23 September 2006.

I would dispute most of that. However it is irrelevant. This is a page on the Criticism of Islam, not on what CAIR or Said think of the critics of Islam. It ought to go even if it is all those things you say. Lao Wai 22:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

yeah, CAIR's name is their disclaimer already! We don't need self-evident disclaimers! otoh, If CIAR is being referenced significantly in the section on violence, one must mention that they don't speak for all American Muslims (as they have links to terrorist organisations). But such disclaimers are unnecissary when your talking about wider issues, not specifically violence. Just don't let people think that CIAR's terrorist appologetics reprissent all western Muslims. 80.11.135.53 20:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I dispute two of your accusations:

• anti-Christian

That section is not anti-Christian, since Orientalism is not a Christian matter. It has been present in "Christian" culture 100 years ago as you can find out by reading in the "Old Catholic Encyclopedia", but it is not part of Christian doctrine to regard different cultures inherently inferior.

• Biased

Of course it is biased, just as is any other section of that article. NPOV does not mean "No Point Of View", it means "Neutral Point Of View", which means in this case, that all relevant views should get mentioned in the article.

• Pro-Islamic

Yes it is, but that doesn't disqualify its inclusion. (see the previous sentence about NPOV)

• Pro-Terrorist

That claim is just ridiculous and unfounded. Nothing in that section is anywhere close to pro-terrorist propaganda. Raphael1 13:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Response to Raphael

I dispute two of your accusations:

• anti-Christian

That section is not anti-Christian, since Orientalism is not a Christian matter. It has been present in "Christian" culture 100 years ago as you can find out by reading in the "Old Catholic Encyclopedia", but it is not part of Christian doctrine to regard different cultures inherently inferior.

I should have made this point more lucid. This section is not anti-Christian. This ENTIRE ARTICLE is anti-Christian. Let's face it. If there was a religion that Islam despises today, that's got to be Christianity, the main corroboration being that Christians launched the crusades that took away their, somehow, god-given dream of an Islamic empire from southern Spain to Afghanistan. But the fact that gets lost is that the crusades was an exigent, if not even felicitious, rejoinder to what the Catholic church saw as devastating encroachments by Islamic calliphates into Christian territory. We have to remember that it was Islam that started this whole war, when they waged jihad against Christians and conquered Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and northern Africa, all of which were once CHRISTIAN TERRITORIES before falling into the hands of Islamic fanatics. The point I am trying to undergird is that however many people criticize Islam and however many religions voice their dissent over Islam, Muslims are going to attack Christianity because they need to somehow make-up for the ignominous losses they suffered to the Crusaders 1000 years ago. So even if a Buddhist, Hindu or Jew attacked Islam, Muslims will STILL blame and attack Christians. Need I say more of the absolutely ridiculous allusions to Christianity in the following sentence?

..."that so far as the West is concerned, Islam represents not only a formidable competitor but also a late-coming challenge to Christianity."

I'm pretty sure only Westerners are criticizing Islam. Especially when there is Ali Sina. Or Wafa Sultan. Or Salman Rushdie. I just find it utterly ridiculous how the West and Christianity are always, ALWAYS, used as convenient punching bags if Islam is attacked. If so, how could you blame Pope Urban II when he summoned the crusade? Doesn't he have the right to protect Christianity in the very same way that Saudi Arabia tries to protect Islam by restricting the establishment of any other religion in the country?

• Biased

Of course it is biased, just as is any other section of that article. NPOV does not mean "No Point Of View", it means "Neutral Point Of View", which means in this case, that all relevant views should get mentioned in the article.

If an article is biased, then we should institute all our ken to eviscerate these faulty informations, do we not? If the section aformentioned is biased (which it clearly is), then wouldn't I have a duty to delete it?

• Pro-Islamic

Yes it is, but that doesn't disqualify its inclusion. (see the previous sentence about NPOV)

Just to remind you, this article is called, "Criticism of Islam" NOT "Criticisms of the Criticism of Islam." If the article was pro-Islamic, then what's the point of creating an article called, "Criticism of Islam." If Muslims want to palliate some of the criticisms in the article by suggesting counter-arguments, that is perfectly fine. But do it in understandable and non-truculent manner. Don't just attack other religions because you presume that people from that particular religion are contributing to this article. And since we are talking about other religions, why don't you go to Criticism of Christianity and find out how many times Islam gets mentioned in a denigrating way?

• Pro-Terrorist

That claim is just ridiculous and unfounded. Nothing in that section is anywhere close to pro-terrorist propaganda. Raphael1 13:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You say: Nothing in that section is anywhere close to pro-terrorist propaganda.

Well, here's some things in the past that CAIR ALONE has said (I'm not sure if you could call this pro-terrorist. Probably anti-Christian.)

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."

"It is a known fact that defended, apologized for, and rationalized the actions of extremists groups ... The real challenge for moderates like myself is to prevent my Muslim brethren from deceived by extremist groups that pretend to represent their interests."

If you want more information, go to Criticism of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.--205.189.150.1 05:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree that the sources cited in this are coming from sources that have a well-defined bias and agenda. But since they are responding to the challenge to their positions, I don't see a problem with this section. Kyaa the Catlord 16:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This section should not be so high in the article, and as no Daniel Pipes is used in this page as he is too critical to go in this article, why is he critised in this article. Maybe so his quotes can be used to denigrate legitamate critism of Islam.Hypnosadist 17:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

How exactly is Daniel Pipes' criticism less "legitamate" than any other criticism. In fact, its because he is so critical and so well known that he ought to be mentioned more in the article. If articles were created and maintained based on how legitimate or reasonable the subject matter was, then there would be no article on Islam in the first place. --203.59.166.123 19:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear 205.189.150.1, in your response to my "challenge" you are wrong in several ways:

1. Your Christian territories theory is totally wrong. Iraq or northern Africa has never been a "Christian territory", even if the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia (which states that people "who may have held that Islam is a kind of useful, possibly necessary, transition, between Fetishism and Christianity" are "utterly mistaken") may want to picture it that way.
2. If you want to remove all biased information (every POV is biased per definition), you'll end up with a blank page.
3. Just because the article is called "Criticism of Islam" does not mean, that it should contain nothing but a compilation of polemic or truculent criticism.
4. Your first "quote" from CAIR is neither pro-terrorist nor anti-Christian. Would you call a priest, who says something like "Christianity isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Bible should be the highest authority in America, and Christianity the only accepted religion on earth." pro-terrorist or anti-Buddhism?
5. Your 2nd quote is nothing but the personal opinion of Seif Ashmawy, which neither proofs CAIR to be pro-terrorist nor does it make CAIRs opinion on Daniel Pipes any less relevant to that article.

Raphael1 18:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Response To Raphael: Regarding :# Your Christian territories theory is totally wrong. Iraq or northern Africa has never been a "Christian territory", North Africa was Originaly part of "Christian Territory" as it was part of the Roman Empire when it adopted christianity, remnants still remain in the gnostic church of egypt and there was once a patriach of Carthage (Tunisia) Patriarchate of Carthage with christianity penetrating africa as far as ethiopia where it still remains,

But I totatly agree with you on your dismisal of this arguement, Islam is a religion and as such believes it to be the true path to God/Allah and as such they are bound to want others to experience what they do, and of course they will see there religion as perfect. If there is any disagreement between Christianity and Islam it would most likely stem from the fact that all religions see them selves as superior to others in reaching God/Allah and want to share this with others but sadly both religions are guilty of being heavy handed in spreading what they see as right, though im sure they only only act out of what they see as the best intrests for those who arent part of there religion (i.e forcing conversions and military actions) and arent really inherently evil

- Im not really a follower of any religion and see them as just theories so ive tried to be fair to them Catintheoven 20:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Critism of the critics

This section should not be so high in the article, and as no Daniel Pipes is used in this page as he is too critical to go in this article, why is he critised in this article. Maybe so his quotes can be used to denigrate legitamate critism of Islam.Hypnosadist 17:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Please post discusion here about this current edit war!Hypnosadist 17:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

notable criticism as well as scholarly assessment of that criticism is relevant in this article, similar sections in Criticism of Christianity and others rightly set the precedent for this (i don't see any critique of daniel pipes currently in the article). some consider that just because this is an article on criticism of islam, only criticism is allowed. the absurdity of such a position is that one would be purging even the most inane and defunct arguments of any notable or academic analysis. and seeing as though there has been notable critique of the methodologies used, justified or not, it is illogical to place it anywhere else except here, lest you end up forcing it into a rather ugly article fork, whereas wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopaedia and not a battle-ground. to those who advocate this, i suggest they first study what wikipedia and its articles are not and then take a look at WP:NPOV. Hypnosadist, feel free to relocate that section to wherever you feel is most appropriate in the article. ITAQALLAH 17:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If the section is moved to the end of the article then it is in line with Criticism of Christianity. But it must be noted that that article contains no attacks on the critcs themselves and very few rebutals to the criticisms. Any criticism of the critics should be om their pages, not here in my opinion. Does anyone object to moving this to the end in=line with Criticism of Christianity.Hypnosadist 18:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

What difference does it make to keep it as it is, as opposed to pushing it to the end? So that people are less likely to read that material? That's not exactly neutral. I think it is fine as it is. The article is about, it shouldnt be criticism of Islam. Since when is "Criticism of Christianity" the template this article has to agree with. Responses and opposing theories to criticisms and critiques should be in the body of the article. All 'sides' should be equally represented. ImKidding 03:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

If that was the case these criticisms should be in the apropriate islam article but they are forced to be here as they are constantly delete out of original articles.Hypnosadist 11:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous. Why do people keep on adding the insane paragraph, "Criticism used by Critics of Islam?" It's not as if Islam has no blemishes. Just deal with it. Islam is not the best religion that this world has to offer and it's record isn't squeaky-clean, either. So stop whinning, grow some wits and deal with it. --205.189.150.1 20:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Islam is not the one that is being the terrorist or aggresor it is the people who use it for terror and agression. By saying that Islam isnt the best religion shows a biased view and should be taken out because some people beleive it is. You are mistaken and really should think before you type and take consideration for people feelings please. Thank you. Ssd175 06:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

If you want sensitivity, read your own sacred texts in your own corner. If you want open dialog and debate, have it here. Your emotional response to statements by 205.189.150.1 regarding Islam's blemishes and lack of objective superior position relative to other religions, is certainly indicative of your unwillingness to stand back and have an honest dialog. I doubt any of us want an encyclopedia that moderates discussion through a PC filter.

Reason for my choice of sources for Oriana Fallaci

There is a logical reason here. Lot of commentary is from Italian sources. My Italian is poor to say the least so as an initial seque of Oriana Fallaci into the text as a notable critic of Islam I have linked to a Newyorker interview as that's in English. I may have the cite wrong though. I'll try and track down the details of the court case that she was presented with for her criticism of Islam to put into the "Muslim Objections to Critics" section. Obviously any court case kind of stymied !. I feel the Newyorker interview encapsulates her criticism of Islam faithfully without bloating this already too long topic. Ttiotsw 12:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Femicide

Why is there even stuff about honour killings in the section on Femicide? All it contains are news stories of honour killings and suchlike which NO muslim scholars accept.

I thought this article was criticism of Islamic beliefs rather than the actions of muslims. we might as well add all crimes perpetrated by muslims to this article if we're going down that route.

• • rolls eyes*

I am sorry but would you mind signing your posts with four tildas (~)? What makes you think that honor killings are not accepted by Muslim scholars? You can, no doubt, find scholars in the West and even some in the Islamic world who condemn them. A few. Now. In English. But what makes you think it is not a part of Islamic belief to do so? All part of forbidding the evil and commanding the good. They are, after all, unpunishable in Islamic law and so I'd think most Muslims would assume God approves of them. Lao Wai 13:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

If the "honour killings" point was properly connected with Islamn that has proper references, why would should it be eliminated, because muslim scholars have another POV? Referenced points about Islam (if the point is about Islam indeed) should remain. Nonprof. Frinkus 19:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, it's me again. I've never seen a muslim scholar say that honour killings are part of islamic belief. Do you have any evidence? Even from a basic point of view, they are extra-judicial killings which is not islamic in itself. Oh yeah, signing my post ;-) 88.106.153.37 23:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

To my knowlege the talk page is supposed to be used for discussing article content only. You cannot associate honor killing with Islam without evidence supporting that claim. "What makes you think" and "Prove it isn't there" isn't an acceptable replacement for actual knowlege of the matter, and if you have no notable knowlege on the matter, it is better you stay silent. Unless you have the curiosity to do some work towards knowing whether or not that claim is true, discussing the matter is idle chatter of no value in a discussion about content going into an article. ImKidding 02:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Technically, not only can people associate honor killing with Islam, but I presume before you removed it that the article did just that. The question at hand is more properly whether or not the article should associate Islam with honor killing, and there's little denying that Muslim countries have a very disproportionate number of "honor killings" when compared with other countries. Yes, much of it is tribe based, but these tribes mostly consist of people under the jurisdiction of Islamic courts, which when presented with cases concerning this, don't often oppose the practice, implying a somewhat indirect acceptance of the practice by Islamic authorities. The only real question here is which sources would you feel would be adequate to demonstrate this, news media accounts, or do people have to delve deep into accounts of Islamic law being practiced in various countries, and how many countries need to fall under the references? Homestarmy 16:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Homestarmy, do you know that Misplaced Pages doesn't allow "Original Research"? Read WP:OR. It's not enough for you to deduce your own conclusions, you must provide sources that validate the content. Also, the femicide section doesn't cite actual criticisms, which leads us to conclude that the editor is doing his own criticizing. That is not allowed either. Misplaced Pages isn't the place for people to put forward their own editorial pieces. ImKidding 01:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That is why I specifically stated that the real question was which sources. News reports would be easy, thought its possible a case can be made that news reports aren't necessarily indicative of a general trend in a religion. Finding actual justification within Islamic authorities writings would make a much stronger case, thought would probably be harder to locate, since much of it is probably written in Arabic and there's no reason why it would mostly be actually on the internet. So what sort of sources are needed here to substantiate the claim? Homestarmy 15:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"femicide" doesn't belong under this title (unless we're discussing specific fatwahs or theological treatises), but it should be discussed at Demographics of the Middle East or some such: working on sex ratio and gender imbalance, I have noted that countries of the Arab world tend to have a 'normal' male/female ratio at birth, but an extremely high male/female ratio for people above 65, which implies a significantly above average female mortality. dab (ᛏ) 16:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Sefringle's recent edits

per i would advise it is highly undesirable to include counter-responses for the simple fact that it would need to be balanced out by the typical counter-counter-response. keep the significant critique under "critics say" and keep the significant Muslim response as "Muslims respond..". having a series of counter responses merely acts as a sitmulant for a succession of "rebuttals"- we have no need to reproduce polemic here. keep it simple: one critique then one tyical response. that is the best way to achieve NPOV. ITAQALLAH 17:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

We now have a science in the Quran article so all this silliness can be moved there and have space created for meaningful criticism!Hypnosadist 17:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You seem to find joy in critisizing other peoples beliefs.Why? Ssd175 06:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed many of the other topics about Islam on this page, for example the morality of the quran section, contains a Muslim rebuddle followed by a critic rebuddle to the muslim rebuddle. Why can't this section of the article have that too?--Sefringle 04:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

why should it? and why should any section have it for that matter? ITAQALLAH 14:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

All criticism is a highly debated topic. An article about the criticism of Islam must include all points, and that includes rebuddles. Critics don't just make one point, and then the the muslims make a counter point, and that is the end. No, that is not the end at all. The debate continues. To keep the page neutral, the point to stop is when we start repeating the same points over and over again, something that often occurs in debates. And while wikipedia has a neutral point of view, that also means we must include the whole debate (until repetition), and both sides of the debate, not cut it off after the first rebuddle.--Sefringle 02:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

er, not quite. wikipedia is not a place to reproduce linear-style debates between critic A and apologetic B. one aspect of islam is highlighted, substantial and significant criticism (and this means from decent sources, preferably not pseudo-academic polemic found on the typical websites) of that aspect is compiled and given in one paragraph, typical muslim response to substantial criticism is compiled and given in the next paragraph; then next aspect of islam. do you see how ridiculous this would become were we to include all rebuttals and counter-rebuttals one after the other, in every article where there are two opposing viewpoints? take for example a typical Sunni/Shi'a debate:

Sunnis claim X. Shi'a respond to X by claiming Y. Sunni dismiss Y by claiming counter-Y. Shi'a respond to counter-Y by claiming counter-X and counter-counter-Y. Ah, Sunnis say, Shi'a viewpoint is defunct on grounds of Z. Shi'a respond to this... ad nauseum.

how tedious! that is not how an encyclopaedia is written. even then, a number of the critical "responses" you provided were pretty meaningless and if there was anything substantial within it, such could have been included in the initial critique. precisely, wikipedia advocates neutrality, and i saw nothing from those recent edits which would conform to neutrality per blatantly giving one side undue weight, and by looking at the standard of these un-academic "rebuttals" i can imagine the type of pointless and useless responses which would be elicited in further rebuttals. we are certainly not here to document the exchanges between website A and website B until in the editor's subjective opinion the debate has "ended" or is now becoming "repetitive".

all notable criticism (from initial critiques and subsequent rebuttals) should be compiled together into one paragraph, with all notable muslim response in the following paragraph, instead of making it helplessly unencyclopaedic. by doing that we can say Sunnis claim X, Y and Z, and these are all the substantial criticisms in rebuttals and counter rebuttals they present. then the next paragraph can be Shi'a in response to this claim anti-X/Y/Z due to such and such. that is far superior to having a line for a response, and then a counter response, and then another, and another, and another ... ITAQALLAH 02:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

How is it neutral to make the muslim response the last response? That is like saying the muslim opinion is more valid than the critics opinion, even if the critics might actually be right in the long run. By continuing the debate a little, the critics might have a really inteligent counter-point that can only be mentioned as a rebuddle to the muslim point and that counter-point would ultimately prove they are correct. By ending with the muslim rebuddles, you are saying that the muslims won the dabate, even if that isn't necessaraly the case. Are you going to tell me that that is neutral?--Sefringle 03:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

no, it doesn't mean that at all. you need to reverse your perspective for a moment: by making such a point, you are implying that your formulation is not neutral either as you are giving the polemicists the final word. such an argument is fallacious, and in fact by such a logic such an account can never be neutral as one of the sides will always be given the last say. we are not here to identify who is correct. we are here to summarize the general, notable criticism made. that is best done in the method i suggested. if the criticism is strong enough then objective readers will realise the futility of the Muslim response, without us even having to vaguely indicate it (by making it lattermost). we are not here to provide rebuttal after rebuttal because the point of the article is to note the criticisms made of islam, and per NPOV balance it through typical Muslim response to that criticism. the significant and notable criticism comes first, because that's the point of the article, and thus the notable Muslim response can come nowhere except afterwards. ITAQALLAH 03:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, but the Critics arguement is currently not the best arguement from the critics of islam. I don't know about the muslim responses though. --Sefringle 07:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll say it again, ALL these criticisms should be on their apropriate pages but strangley they keep disappering off them?!Hypnosadist 02:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

if you're talking about shifting the qur'an/science critiques/responses to the qur'an and science article... i don't think such material would be allowed anywhere near it per the extremely high standards demanded by some of the editors over there :) ITAQALLAH 03:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Split

This article is way too long. Per wikipedia guidlines, I am going to be bold and split it. I started with the Qur'an part to match Criticism of the Bible. I am now going to split out the Muhammad (saw) part. Inshallah this will raise the quality of the article by not being a huge monolithic hate dump. If the article is smaller, that is NOT 100K, somebody might actually read it and edit it for the better. --Striver 05:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The article Islam is longer than this one. However yes if you can split it meaningfully, I think it would be nice and will facilitate more editing for this topic.--JohnsAr 06:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Or you could put the criticisms here nto there apropriate Islam articles just a thought!, i know its not going to happen.Hypnosadist 14:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Reverted this mass delete, its not a split.Hypnosadist 15:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Crticism of Islam - Menu system needs to be changed

The Menu right now hereneeds to be in place which links all articles critical of Islam together. The Title of the Template says "Controveries related to Islam and Muslims" but there are so many more which should be linked, e.g.:

• Criticism of the Qur'an
• Criticism of Muhammad

More topics:

• Apostasy in Islam
• Historical persecution by Muslims
• Islam and anti-Semitism
• Islamic extremist terrorism
• Islamophobia
• Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons
• Liberal movements within Islam
• Persecution of Muslims
• Religious persecution
• Women as imams
• Sex segregation in Islam

Either this, or we need a new menu system in place. If this doesnt happen now, it will at some point as more and more articles are written relating to critical analysis of Islam. --Matt57 14:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You are welcomed to edit that template to your satisfaction. --Striver 20:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Striver, you've done good work on the templates for Islam. Someone has already edited the Criticism of Islam template and it looks better now and more relevant to the articles on Criticism of Islam, although there can be more improvement which I hope somoene will pursue. I had placed a link in the main Islam template for the Portal on Islam, but I'm not sure if its presented in the best way. Feel free to play with it if you want to.--Matt57 01:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

THE REAL TRUTH U R NOT AWARE

Messenger(P.B.U.H)prophesized 1427 years ago! Signs of Quamah

• Muhammad(PBUH)(Kalki Avtar(HINDUS) said "there will be a fitna(computers, phones, Tv) at each Arab's(Muslim) home." And He too said "The Sur will blow, when there will be original spinal cord & all organs of body become old"(BONE CEMENT search at google).
• Camels will no longer be used as a means of transport;
• People will ride on saddles that aren't saddles (CARS);
• The distance on earth will become short(AEROPLANE);
• Horses will not be used in wars;
• Muslims will defeat the Byzantines which will end with the conquest of Constantinopl(Istanbul)
• Very tall buildings will be built;
• The disappearance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance, with much killing;
• Adultery will become widespread(MISUSE OF CONDOMS/COUNTERCEPTIVE PILLS)
• The drinking of wine will become common;
• The number of males will decrease and the number of females will increase until there are 50 women to be looked after by one man.(SEX FIXER search at Google,Climatic changes, EMR are effecting semen)
• Islam will become worn out like clothes are, until no one will know what fasting, prayer, charity and rituals are(IS TRUE);
• Allah will send a disease to fornicators that will have no cure (Aids?);
• People will begin to believe in the stars and reject AL QADAR (THE DIVINE DECREE OF DESTINY);
• Men will pass by people's graves and say: "Would that I were in his place";(large amount of sucidal deaths?)
• The Euphrates will uncover a mountain of gold for which people will fight over (the river of Alfurat that lies near Syria);
• Two large groups of people will fight one another, and there will

be many casualties; they will both be following the same religion (Christian & Muslim);

• Approximately 30 DAJJALS will appear, each one claiming to be the messenger of ALLAH;(Dajjals are claiming as Kalki Avtar of HINDUS search Kalki Avtar at google, But Muhammad(PBUH) is Kalki Avatar in Bhavishya Puran & try to know Muhammad(PBUH).
• Earthquakes will increase;
• Time will pass quickly;
• Afflictions will appear;
• Killing will increase;
• Wealth will increase;
• Muslims will drink wine as HALAL;
• Muslims will wear silk;
• Women will be wearing clothes but not wearing clothes;
• THE PROPHET (saw) SAID:"IF MY UMMAH BEARS 15! TRAITS(QUALITIES), TRIBULATION WILL FOLLOW IT." (DAY OF JUDGEMENT) SOMEONE

ASKED,"WHAT ARE THEY O MESSENGER OF ALLAH?" HE (saw) SAID:

• When any gain is shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor;
• When a trust becomes a means of making profit.
• When paying ZAKKAT becomes burden;
• When voices are raised in mosques,
• When the leader of a people is the worst of them;
• When people treat man with respect because what he may do
• When much wine is drunk;
• 'IMRAN IBN HUSAYN SAID: "THE PROPHET (AS) SAID, 'SOME PEOPLE OF THIS UMMAH WILL BE SWALLOWED BY THE EARTH, TRANSFORMED INTO ANIMALS, AND SOME WILL BE BOMBARDED WITH STONES'. ONE OF THE MUSLIMS ASKED, WHEN WILL THAT BE O MESSENGER Of ALLAH?' HE SAID, 'WHEN SINGERS AND MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS WILL BECOME POPULAR, AND MUCH WINE IS DRUNK.'"
• THE GREATER SIGNS OF THE HOUR The Quran will disappear in one night, even from the people's hearts, and no Ayyah will be left on earth.

(Some groups of old people will be left who will say: "We heard of fathers' saying "LAILLAHA ILLA ALLAH" so we repeat it);

• People will become AGONOSTIC/ATHIEST;
• Man will claim I'm Allah(CLONNING) Allah says just come out from MY SKY;
• The appearance of the MAHDI;
• The appearance of the DAJJAL (Anti Christ);
• The appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (biblical Gog and Magog)
• Isa (Jesus) will come during the time of Dajjal;
• The Sun will rise from the west(ROTATION OF EARTH IS CHANGING);
• The destruction of the Ka'ba and the recovery of its treasures;
• The smoke(BIG BANG EXPANSION from HOLY QURAN);

Response to this Ranting ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ This has what to do with the article, If the person who wrote this thinks its so vital to us and true why havent they "~"x4 to sign this to discuss this? Catintheoven 20:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

usage of {main} template under "Criticism of Muhammad" section

of course, we all concur that the link under the "main article" parameter for this section should be Criticism of Muhammad. Humus sapiens insists that the Aisha's age at marriage article be included in the {{main}} template also. i am sorry, but i do not see the logic behind this, for several reasons:

• Aisha's age at marriage does not contain a substantial volume of critique. it is not really a primary article for the discussion of "Criticism of Muhammad."
• to include one particular critique within the parameter gives prominence to that criticism over the others, suggesting that this critique is the strongest or most frequent, whereas this isn't really the case.
• Criticism of Muhammad already encompasses Aisha's age at marriage, it seems rather illogical to include the link here. again, this merely serves as giving prominence to one, specific, critique- whereas we don't see links to Muhammad as a general or Muhammad's marriages or any of the numerous possibilities. why single out one article? in reality, no article should be singled out: Criticism of Muhammad is appropriate and sufficient.

i don't believe there is sufficient justification for implying that an article primarily concerning criticism of Muhammad exists other than Criticism of Muhammad. ITAQALLAH 17:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

ITAQALLAH, Are you trying to say that there's not enough links to exist so that a separate menu could be made for the Criticism of Islam? The menu now has links, look again. They are good links. Thats the right direction for this menu. Its not the best right now, but atleast there's some improvement. --JohnsAr 19:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

please refer to the edit that is being discussed, the diff for which i have provided above. ITAQALLAH 19:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

1)Mohammed's "relationship" with aisha is the one thing most critics are most critical of. 2)Hiding this info 5 links from the islam page and 4 links from criticism of islam and Mohammed articles is just not acceptable. In fact that that "relationship" is not on the Mohammed page just shows the bias pressent in the structure of the articles on islam.Hypnosadist 16:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

it is not the most prominent scholarly criticism. if you are talking with regards to sensationalism, then you may be correct. this critique is extremely recent in comparison to the more scholarly and more prevalent ones amongst historians. nevertheless, there is no reason whatsoever to single out one criticism and label it as a "main article" discussing criticism when the primary focus of that article is not criticism of Muhammad. i don't see how your second point is relevant here. ITAQALLAH 17:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Additions

This article makes no mention of the contradictions in the Quran! I know that you Muslims will claim that saying that Jesus is both in heaven and in hell is not a contradiction, and that when it says God made man out of nothing in one place and out of other things in other places those aren't contradicting each other, but they are. Also daughters get less inheritance than sons (though the passages in the Quran relating to this end up adding up the fractions wrong). That is certainly criticized. Also S. 9:119 and S. 32:4 contradict S. 5:55. There are many other contradictions as well. There should be some mention of this. Arrow740 01:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Where does it say that Jesus(A.S.) is in hell? BhaiSaab 02:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sura 21:98. Here's Yusuf Ali's translation: "Verily ye, (unbelievers), and the (false) gods that ye worship besides Allah, are (but) fuel for Hell! to it will ye (surely) come!" But this is not the place for this discussion. The point is that this is a criticism of Islam; our opinions on it do not matter. It merits inclusion in the article. Arrow740 02:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Arrow, Criticism of the Qur'an may be the best place to address contradictions in Quran. --JohnsAr 02:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I didn't know about that article. Maybe we should form some kind of guild to keep informed about such developments. But many people criticize Islam using the contradictions in the Quran, so there should be at least some mention of it in this article. Arrow740 02:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to participate more although I'm usually tight on time. One way we can get some sort of group formed is having a userbox that says "This user is interested in controversies about Islam", or something to that effect. As you can guess "some people" will try all their best to silence freedom at any cost. I faintly remember some sort of contradictions were present on that Criticism of Quran page but maybe freedom silencers took it out. That never works though, eventually stuff like that finds its way in. Freedom of expression can never be silenced so we are on the right side.--JohnsAr 02:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

That it is probably the most ridiculous interpretation of that verse I've ever heard. There is a whole chapter in the Qur'an dedicated to Maryam; Jesus is a prophet, and prophets go to heaven. BhaiSaab 03:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Qur'an says in other places that Jesus is "near-stationed to Allah." However verse 98 of sura 21 clearly states that the false gods that unbelievers worship are fuel for Hell, and will surely go there. Well according to the Quran, Jesus is not God. That makes him a false god. Since he is and has been worshiped as God, this verse places him in hell. In fact someone caught Muhammad making this mistake when he first revealed this line. You can read about it here. Arrow740 03:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Answering-Islam is probably the worst source you can use, second to faithfreedom stuff. BhaiSaab 03:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If you don't want to read it there, then get yourself a copy of the Sirat Rasul Allah and read it therein. Arrow740 03:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've read Sirat Rasullullah and I'm satisfied with what the Prophet had to say. BhaiSaab 03:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

You have to admit that an open-minded person approaching the issue with no biases would conclude that Muhammad made a mistake and tried to cover it up. Arrow740 08:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Jesus is not a false god. Jesus is a person. There's a difference. You're adding your own interpretation if you think that when the Qur'an is referring to "false gods", it means people. Nay, it is referring to Baal, Moloch, Zeus, etc. These are not people. They are false gods. This is how every single Hadith and Tafsir has understood these verses. You have no grounding for your own special interpretation of the Qur'an.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Robert Spencer

Have any of you who say he isn't a scholar (ludicrous) actually read any of his books? He is a very good researcher. His work should be better represented in this article. Arrow740 02:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

He's just a polemicist. BhaiSaab 03:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

So I guess your answer is "no," bhaisaab. Arrow740 03:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

My answer is that I don't have time to waste on his books. As a Muslim myself, I don't have to look to an Catholic polemicist for information on Islam. BhaiSaab 03:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Bhaisaab, ofcourse you are a Muslim. Why would you "waste" time on reading Islam-critical books like Robert Spencer's? You dont have to explain it. Hopefully someone puts more of his stuff into Misplaced Pages.--JohnsAr 11:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If you aren't familiar with any of his work then you should refrain from applying negative labels to him. Arrow740 08:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've read one of his books when my dad forced me to, when I wanted to become a muslim. He's not very convincing. Especially when he was talking about making people stop trading with the "evil muslim countries". It didn't help when I found out that he was catholic. In fact, all Anti-Islam sites use the same exact tactics. ZeroFive1 03:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

He is not a polemicist. He holds an MA in religious studies, and is highly versed in Islamic theology. He is a brave, intelligent man pointing out truths many do not wish to hear. He is certainly not a polemicist. Lord Patrick 21:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

He is a polemicist, the titles of his book are one proof of this. Secondly, his MA dissertation focused on Catholicism, I wrote an MA dissertation that focused on Microbiology, does that make me an expert in Nuclear Physics? ThaGrind 15:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Pointing out facts and logic doesn't make one a polemicist. He calls his books as such to make them more identifiable for his target audience (conservatives, libertarians, and Christians) Lord Patrick 05:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality of Women section

I have read the section, and it does state both sides here. I believe a "criticism of" something article should not be just apologist of why such criticism is wrong … but listing what criticisms are out there. No, what exactly about this section needs to be fixed now? Nonprof. Frinkus 16:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Shirin Sinnar Quotation

A quotation appeared in this section that attributed to me a view that I do not hold; in fact, my article cited by the wikipedia entry explicitly rejects that view.

I have removed the quotation. If you'd like to see the original article, you can read it at http://web.archive.org/web/19991109075328/www.jaring.my/just/UNhr50An.html

Thanks, Shirin Sinnar

Horribly written sections

I suggest a re-writing of the "the quran" section on this page.--Sefringle 01:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Apostasy In Pakistan

The article claims

" many Muslim countries make apostasy from Islam a crime punishable by death, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and Yemen. Other Muslim countries specify lesser punishments"

That's false.

"There was no law against apostasy ; however, societal pressure against conversion from Islam was so strong that any conversion almost certainly would take place in secret. " http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71443.htm

OneGuy

Christoph Luxenberg -- a German Professor?

According to the article by François de Blois in Journal of Qur'anic Studies, Christoph Luxenberg is a psydonym of a Lebanese Christian. No western scholar (there are many who are critical of Islam) uses psydonems.

Journal of Qur'anic Studies, 2003, Volume V, Issue 1, pp. 92-97.

According to my information, 'Christoph Luxenberg' is not a German but a Lebanese Christian. It is thus not a question of some intrepid philologist, pouring over dusty books in obscure languages somewhere in the provinces of Germany and then having to publish his results under a pseudonym so as to avoid the death threats of rabid Muslim extremists, in short an ivory-tower Rushdie. Let us not exaggerate the state of academic freedom in what we still like to call our Western democracies. No European or North American scholar of linguistics, even of Arabic linguistics, needs to conceal his (or her) identity, nor does he (or she) really have any right to do so. These matters must be discussed in public. In the Near East things are, of course, very different. OneGuy 21:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Does being born in Lebanon make him unnotable? Arrow740 02:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

There are very real death threats against scholars in Europe. Peter Raddatz, Bassam Tibi (why isn't he mentioned, by the way?, they have all received them. And let`s not get started on film-makers and cartoonists. Not everybody has the luxury of 24-hour police protection like politicians and the pope. There are very good reasons for Europeans to write under a pseudonym if they dare to criticise islam.

CHALLENGE: Part 2

A few months ago, there was a tremendous furor over my deletion of the following paragraph (See below) I would like to take the time now to explain and debate those who feel that the paragraph should be included in the page.

PARAGRAPH

=== Responses to criticisms ===

Responses come from both Muslim and some non-Muslim scholars and writers.

Responses from Modern non-Muslims scholars

Such non-Muslim scholars include William Montgomery Watt, John Esposito and Karen Armstrong and the late Edward Said, who sharply criticized Western scholarship of the East. Watt, for example, in his book Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman addresses Muhammad’s alleged moral failures. He claims that “Of all the world's great men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad.” Watt argues that Muhammad should be judged by the standards of his own time and country rather than "by those of the most enlightened opinion in the West today." Karen Armstrong, tracing what she believes to be the West's long history of hostility toward Islam, finds in Muhammad’s teachings a theology of peace and tolerance. Armstrong holds that the "holy war" urged by the Qur'an alludes to each Muslim's duty to fight for a just, decent society.

John Esposito has written many introductory texts on Islam and the Islamic world. For example, he has addressed issues like the rise of militant Islam, the veiling of women, and democracy. Esposito emphatically argues against what he calls the "pan-Islamic myth". He thinks that "too often coverage of Islam and the Muslim world assumes the existence of a monolithic Islam in which all Muslims are the same." To him, such a view is naive and unjustifiably obscures important divisions and differences in the Muslims world.

Responses from modern Muslims scholars

Responses from Muslims have come from many Muslim writers, scholars and comparative religionists such as Ahmad Deedat, Dr. Zakir Naik, Osama Abdallah, Yusuf al-Qaradawi and Gary Miller. Within the academia, responses have come from scholars such as Michael Sells, Muqtedar Khan.

Objections to the methods used by critics

Edward Said, in his essay Islam Through Western Eyes, stated that the general basis of Orientalist thought forms a study structure in which Islam is placed in an inferior position as an object of study. He claims the existence of a very considerable bias in Orientalist writings as a consequence of the scholars' cultural make-up. He claims Islam has been looked at with a particular hostility and fear due to many obvious religious, psychological and political reasons, all deriving from a sense "that so far as the West is concerned, Islam represents not only a formidable competitor but also a late-coming challenge to Christianity." Montgomery Watt agrees with West's historical denigration of Islam but states that the situation has become much better during the last two centuries though many of the old prejudices still linger on. Watt encourages both Muslims and Europeans to reach to an objective view of Muhammad and his religion.

First of all, this page is "Criticisms of Islam" not "The Criticisms of the Criticisms of Islam." For all those high on religious nationalism, anti-Christianism, anti-Westernism, or whatever the hell anti-ism you are, there is a clear bifurcation between the two terms that you need to understand before you make anymore edits to the page; "criticisms of Islam" refers to criticisms of Islam, and you must accept the fact that your faith is going to be critisized in this page, whether you like it or not. This is an encyclopedia and shouldn't be treated as some sanctimonious entity. I find it highly and absolutely preposterous that those who claim that free speech is a desideratum to any functioning liberal and democratic nation-states are either expurgating or criticisizing the very same texts that, at least, adhere to the topic that is at hand. If you look at the other pages that attack other religions (Criticisms of Christianity, Anti-Judaism, Criticisms of Hinduism) NONE of these pages have something as ridiculous as "Responses to the methods used by critics" or something along those lines.

And for those peoples who are crying foul or claiming that this page is but another corroboration that Westerners are "demonizing" Islam, please look in the mirror. Everyday thousands of Christians are harassed, killed, raped or tortured in the Middle East simply for being Christian. How now is it that those who claim that they are persecuted countries that actually ALLOW for the constructions of mosques, temples, etc., are of nationalities that openly persecute the countries that allow them to be there in the first place? The bottom line, in my opinion, is this: if it is the case that Christians are dying in countries simply for adhering to a specific faith, then it must also be the case that those who live in Christian countries of nationalities that torture Christians should also be subjected to similar punishment. Like the old saying goes: an eye for an eye. Go ahead people: let the debates begin. --Canadia 01:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Treat Muslims poorly, no. The West is already paying the price for allowing in as Muslims in as it has, however. Arrow740 07:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

People say things but have no proof. I am from Syria and have never seen andyone harrassed for being Christian. In fact I have quite a few Christian friends. Please do not talk about things and make claims that are not proven by credible sources. Ssd175 06:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Several points:

1. This article deals with Criticism of Islam. That means, all aspects of "Criticism of Islam" must be covered. How Muslims respond to "Criticism of Islam" is an important aspect of the topic at hand.

2. Criticism of Christianity has a responses section. Also, what anti-judaism is like is irrelevant; one must look at Criticism of Judaism, which, lo and behold, it has a section with counter-arguments from Jews for Judaism.

3. You should NOT delete major sections of this article without first discussing it on the talk page. You do not remove it and then discuss.

4. Your second paragraph: Misplaced Pages is not a SoapBox. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 06:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll support keeping the criticism sections in as it is cited OK. I feel Canadia has done a WP:POINT edit as this section seems to have been removed by him because of issues extraneous to Misplaced Pages. Ttiotsw 07:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Canadia has reverted my restoration of the section. I'll repeat it here in case he missed it. Please do not make major changes to the article without first achieving consensus on the talk page. Once consensus is reached regarding the issue, then the section can be removed. But until then, it stays in the article. That's how Misplaced Pages works. The only exception to this is if the material is a copyright violation or libel.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 05:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I think that when a User says "Piss off you fucking anti-American, anti-Israeli, anti-Western anti-Christian monkeys. This is a legitimate edit so piss off. If they are converts and are terrorists, why hide it?", we don't have to assume good faith. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 23:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

--Canadia 04:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)===Response to the naysayers===

1. This article deals with Criticism of Islam. That means, all aspects of "Criticism of Islam" must be covered. How Muslims respond to "Criticism of Islam" is an important aspect of the topic at hand.

Actually, it isn't. As I have mentioned before, Criticism of Islam is EXACTLY what it is. CRITICISM OF ISLAM. This page is not meant to be the "Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam." In fact, if one looks at the reversion closely, one can see that the "criticisms of the criticisms of Islam" section is LONGER than the "criticisms of Islam" section itself. That, to me, is just ridiculous. The proposition that those criticisizing Islam should themselves to subjected to criticisms of the methodologies because they "demonize" Islam is nothing short of hypocrisy. How now is it that those who criticisize people who critisize their religion do so in the name of "tolerance?"

Right now, the response to the criticisms goes on this page, because it is the best spot for it. This is the article that is most relevant to a discussion of how Muslims respond to criticism of Islam. Sourced information cannot just be removed like that, unless you want to move it to a new article titled Criticism of criticism of Islam. But that article doesn't exist, so the information stays here. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 05:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

If one begins to read the "criticisms," one can find that there not even criticisms AT ALL. Instead, what they are are a bunch of anti-Western, anti-Christian sentences strung together. There is not a single sentence that does NOT involve the West or Christianity in it. In fact, most of the citations are quotes extracted from books that intentionally derogates Christianity or the West. Here take a look at these examples:

"He ]] claims Islam has been looked at with a particular hostility and fear due to many obvious religious, psychological and political reasons, all deriving from a sense "that so far as the West is concerned, Islam represents not only a formidable competitor but also a late-coming challenge to Christianity."

Watt argues that Muhammad should be judged by the standards of his own time and country rather than "by those of the most enlightened opinion in the West today."

So not only are the arguments not germane to the topic at hand ("Criticisms of Islam"), they are in fact anti-Western, anti-Christian rhetoric disguised under the pretexts to defend the critisizers of Islam. Just because these quotes are "sourced" doesn't mean that they are valid.

2. Criticism of Christianity has a responses section. Also, what anti-judaism is like is irrelevant; one must look at Criticism of Judaism, which, lo and behold, it has a section with counter-arguments from Jews for Judaism.

If you look carefully, the response sections aren't two paragraphs long. As a matter of FACT, the responses are a FEW LINES EACH. Moreover, the responses do not target a specific religion, e.g. Islam within the section of "Responses to the criticisms of Christianity."

So what if they aren't that long? Maybe the ought to be longer! And ultimately, just because a similar article has a different format does not mean that we must necessarily follow that format. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 05:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure it doesn't. I have never said explicitly that. What it does show, however, is the absolute pettiness and desperateness of Muslims high on ethnic-nationalism and the degree to which they will go to to "defend" (i.e. attack Christianity) their faith.

--Canadia 23:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

This discussion page is for acting like mature adults and not children. To me it seems as if people use religious talk pages (not only this one) as an excuse to insult a religion. Please be respectful in realizing that real people are reading these things. Instead of being hostile why not ask questions and responses by others. That seems less hostile and offensive. Thank you.Ssd175 06:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This page being about Criticism of Islam only means that the criticisms should come first and then the responses. An article on subject X should cover things relevant to X as well. So, clearly this section should be here. --Aminz 13:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This page being about Criticism of Islam POINT PROVEN

--Canadia 17:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

seemingly not. there is no justification for purging legitimate analysis of or response to "criticism" of Islam. Aminz is totally right: this page is about criticism of Islam, not a vehicle for criticism of Islam. therefore, we are to include all verifiable and notable opinions regarding this topic (that includes objective analysis of it as well as typical responses to it), as per our neutral point of view policy, which i suggest you read. ITAQALLAH 18:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Were there ever a phrase that could be of greater help to this discussion, it is this: please use your COMMON SENSE. This page is about criticisms of Islam and by that title, only information germane to the Criticisms of Islam should be included in this page. By intentionally adding citations which critisize the methodologies (actually, these criticisms are not so much criticisms as they are merely anti-Western, anti-Christian rhetoric), all you serve to do is distort the main purpose of this page. As I have said before, if you all are so keen as to voice your own opinions, why don't all of you create a page called "The Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam?" Why don't you go do that? --Canadia 20:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

your suggestion is known as POV-forking, and thankfully has been rejected outright by the community. responses and analyses of critiques are indeed related to this article, please read the NPOV policy as provided above. ITAQALLAH 20:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The main purpose of this page is not to criticize Islam, but to inform about all aspects of critique on Islam. Response to "criticism" of Islam should therefore be included. Btw if you consider that section as being merely anti-Western, anti-Christian rhetoric, you are welcome to add more detailed critique on the methodologies. Raphael1 23:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. It is absolutely amazing and astounding how all of you are reverting back to the same and quite inane proposition that this page is to inform about all aspects of Islam. IT ISN'T. This page is solely about providing the reader about "Criticisms of Islam." Since none of you are willing to take action to rectify this situation (and quite honestly, I am getting sick of having to bootlessly regurgitate my point over and over again), I am going to create a page called "Criticisms of the Criticisms of Islam." And btw Raphael if I started to critisize the criticisms of the criticisms of Islam, then it would initiate a never-ending cycle of critisizms, correct? --Canadia 23:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

if you're getting tired of reiterating your points, you can try addressing the arguments that you have so far avoided. you may first start by explaining why you are blanking large amounts of material despite it being a complete violation of WP:NPOV, and perhaps tantamount to vandalism. ITAQALLAH 14:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The point here is that if you argue incessantly on the grounds of faith, you'll eventually get your stubborn way.

See this is exactly what I predicted you all would say. Are you all even reading what I've posted? I've attached the exact paragraph UNEDITED to another page that is still part othe "Criticisms of Islam" page. How did what I do make it any less valid than what you are proposing? As I've said before, this page is called "Criticisms of Islam" not the "Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam." --Canadia 04:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Grounds of faith? I'm a fucking atheist, and I say the section should stay. Honestly, why are you so scared of the section? Do you think someone is going to read it and convert to Islam or something? You've violated so many Misplaced Pages policies in your efforts to remove the section that it's not even funny. Please stop being a WP:DICK. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 10:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Go figure. Are you Bush's spin machine spokesperson or what? The two things that came to mind when I read that whining diatribte of yours is: (a) Who the fuck are you, Misplaced Pages's Gestapo? and (b) Why the hell would I give the flying fuck if you are a babbling "fucking atheist?" I've never said I wanted to section deleted; rather I want the section moved to another page that accurately reflects the topic at hand while still attached to the original page. But yes, I'm sure I've violated many of Misplaced Pages's policies in my strenuous efforts to "remove the section" so please officer arrest me and put me to jail. How pathetic you are. Next. --Canadia 04:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm Bush's "spin machine" because I want to follow Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines? Also, I mentioned being an atheist because you talked about "grounds of faith". As I was one of the first which reverted your vandalism, I think that I was justified in assuming you were referring to me.

What the hell are you even talking about? Where did I EVER mention "grounds of faith" or type the phrase "grounds of faith" in any of my arguments? Sorry, I am at a complete loss. Perhaps you could do the honours of finding the phrase "grounds of faith" using Windows's "Quick Search" program and tell me where I ever talked about "grounds of faith."

I've never said I wanted to section deleted; rather I want the section moved to another page that accurately reflects the topic at hand while still attached to the original page.

Again, stop being a WP:DICK. You know I was referring to that section being deleted from this article, something you have already tried to do twice. Plus, what you are proposing has no precedent whatsoever. As Itqallah has stated, this article is not a soapbox for criticism of Islam. Its purpose is to discuss all aspects Criticism of Islam; objections to the criticisms are a very important aspect.

Again, stop being Bush's spin machine spokesperson. Have you or Itqallah even taken the time to read what I'm proposing. Why would I care if what I'm proposing has no precedent? Would not the propositions that are "precedent-setting" have had no precedent's before? Look, stop being blinded by stupidity. What is wrong with simply moving the section to another page while still retaining the section "Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam?" What I am proposing is that we still keep the section "Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam" section, but underneath that attach a "Main Article called: Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam" or something like this.

But yes, I'm sure I've violated many of Misplaced Pages's policies in my strenuous efforts to "remove the section" so please officer arrest me and put me to jail.

First of all, you have a past history of being disruptive , , . And, one only has to skim through this page to see how much vitriol is in each of your responses. Hmm, let's see:

Ah yes, the strench of hypocrisy is in the air again. I'm sorry, but are you an administrator? In any case, why would I give the **** if I have a "disruptive" history? Please stop being so politically correct. Yes, I am disruptive and rowdy and rambunctious and blah blah blah, yet I was the first one to call you a WP:DICK. Go figure.

those high on religious nationalism, anti-Christianism, anti-Westernism, or whatever the hell anti-ism you are

Is that supposed to be helpful in improving this article? Is name-calling the people who disagree with you a good way to reach consensus?

Not exactly. Am I to believe that not one person who edited the section 'Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam" was not anti-Christian or anti-Western? Or when somebody edited this page arguing that the page itself (Criticisms of Islam) was actually copied from the "Christian Encyclopedia?" Wake up!

you must accept the fact that your faith is going to be critisized in this page, whether you like it or not

Not everyone who wants to keep the section you vandalized is a Muslim. Please see:

I'll support keeping the criticism sections in as it is cited OK. I feel Canadia has done a WP:POINT edit as this section seems to have been removed by him because of issues extraneous to Misplaced Pages. Ttiotsw 07:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I have said. In fact, I'll say it AGAIN: for those who are Muslim and visit this page, you must accept the fact that your faith, insofar as this page itself is concerned, is going to be critisized whether you like it or not. I'm not sure where you argument is, although I am sure you do have a point here...

So tell me, is his "faith" being criticized in this article, which causes him to disagree with your edits?

They are are a bunch of anti-Western, anti-Christian sentences strung together. There is not a single sentence that does NOT involve the West or Christianity in it

So what? So the objections to the criticisms of Islam involved the West and Christianity. Seeing how your userpage says "This user is a Christian, and likes having a userbox to proclaim this." and "I am Canadian, a native of Toronto and a stalwart defender of Christianity", I think you have a vested interest in removing anti-Christian content from this article.

I do not have the intention of removing anti-Christian content from this page so much so as I have the utmost intention of ensuring that this page presents a balanced view of the topic at hand, which is the "Criticisms of Islam." As well, if I was removing anti-Christian content from this article, I would not be at fault for doing so, correct? Because, afterall, the main goal of Misplaced Pages is to present information in a diaphanous and impartial manner. And in that case, wouldn't those who post anti-Christian content be real transgressors?

How pathetic you are. Next.

WP:NPA and, for the last time, stop being a WP:DICK. If your next response has any personal attacks in it then I'm going to ask for administrator intervention. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 08:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, your argument is pathetic as it is insane and risible. Are you going to tell me that I shouldn't be personally attacking you when you just called me a WP:DICK which, in Dictionary.com, is defined as:

dick /dɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun Slang. 1. a detective. 2. Vulgar. penis.

In that case, I believe YOU are the one at fault and YOU are the one who should clean up your act. If you are playing with fire, expect to get burned. --Canadia 23:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Canadia, stop deleting text. You haven't convinced anyone here with your argument, and repeating the same line doesn't make the unreasonable arguement more convincing. Islam has a "criticism of Islam" section in it (with a link to this article), Ronald Raegan article includes criticism of him, as does Christianity and so on- it's obviously been the case that articles about something have always featured reviews and responses and criticisms of the subject. You want this article to be the exception in that it should only feature criticisms, and basically be criticism of Islam rather than an article about it. The article is "Criticism of Islam", and the responses and criticisms of those criticisms need to be here as well. Falcon2020 16:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

That isn't entirely true. The George W. Bush article has a section solely devoted to criticisms of George Bush (See link here. But at least there is a main article at the top of the section that says "Criticisms of George W. Bush" and "Public Perception of George W. Bush" What I am advocating is JUST THAT. I'm not saying that Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam should not included in the article; rather what I'm saying is that, much like the same way in the case of the criticisms of George W. Bush, there should be a main article devoted to the "Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam." Get it? --Canadia 04:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

the page you created was speedy deleted as a POV fork. please take some tome to review WP:NPOV, so that you understand that this article is not a vehicle for criticisms, it is a medium on which the verifiable opinions of experts regarding the topic of criticism of Islam, its strengths and weaknesses and so on, can be discussed. you are attempting to purge a notable opinion about such criticism. that is extremely tendentious, and of course unacceptable. several editors have had to repeat this to you, and you are currently alone in your perception of what a Misplaced Pages article is. ITAQALLAH 04:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

What I did was merely move the section in question ("Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam") into another article while retaining the original information. I do not know how this can possibly conflict with WP:NPOV or can remotely even be considered as a POV fork, as I have not highlighted "negative or positive viewpoints or facts" (rather, all that I did was move the section onto another page with preserving the information within the section as it was) and have not "createed another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) to be developed according to their personal views rather than according to consensus." Look, I can't even believe this. I haven't changed the information, rather all that I have done is create another page entitled "Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam" while leaving the information untouched. --Canadia 23:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no justification for a separate article for responses to criticisms. Ample numbers of examples have been given where articles featured responses and criticisms to whatever theory or paradigm the subject matter describes. As for your new article, would responses from critics of Islam to those criticizing them go into another article, "Criticisms of critics of criticisms of Islam"? The idea that every single position and response merits its own article has no precedent in Misplaced Pages, and you cannot invent that rule here. This has all been spelled out for you, and at this point your edit warring is becoming disruptive. Until you get consensus on this talk page, stop with your blanking of text. Falcon2020 20:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Itaqallah it is this article which is the POV fork! All these criticisms should be in the apropriate articles.Hypnosadist 16:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Certainly there should be a section for criticism in each of the relevant articles (with links), but there's too much material to fold back into the articles, hence these dedicated articles for the overflow. (And related to the above discussion; jeez, things sure went to pot here while I had this article mistakingly off my watch list - of course the responses need to be provided as well as the criticism, this is a discussion ABOUT criticism, so it must maintain NPOV overall). - Merzbow 21:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Let us just delete all this excess talk and start over. This is really getting ridiculous.Ssd175 06:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Evangelicals

What I mean is not that Robertson and Falwell aren't notable overall, but they aren't notable as critics of Islam. Calling radical Muslims "satanic" like Robertson does is invective, not criticism. Should Hitler be classified as a noted critic of Judaism? Hell no - because his statements against the Jews were pure paranoid invective. Likewise, Noam Chomsky would be more notable than Osama bin Laden as a critic of US-Israeli relations, even though bin Laden is a more notable person overall, because Chomsky makes his arguments in a scholarly manner in books, papers, and speeches at universities.

Anyways, you don't have to take my word; a Google search of +"critic of islam" +spencer returns twice as many hits as +"critic of islam" +robertson. - Merzbow 01:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

But the article isn't "Critics of Islam", it is "Criticism of Islam". As criticisms go, those of notable personalities (career critics of Islam or not)are far more heavy on the notability scale, than are those of people like Spencer. I searched "Robert Spencer" on CNN's website, MSNBC, and BBC, and I only got names that aren't of this critic. To the mundane public this man is an unknown. Search the same websites for "Pat Robertson Islam", and you get a list of results. Pat Robertson's condemnations of Islam were headline news at the time, as were Falwell's back in his day. I see people use these google search results all the time, and I think it's wrong to assume these results in any way gauge notability or popularity of a statement. Robert Spencer's career is exclusively in the domain of criticizing Islam, where for Pat Robertson that isn't his professional career. That accounts for your search result difference. It's not that Spencer's criticisms are either more notable or more popular than Robertson's, but that criticism is Robert's sole function and so most people don't describe him as something else like "evangelical leader" or "televangelist". If notability of something can be measured, it would be by the proportion of the overall population aware of it, which we can gauge by the extent to which it was covered by mainstream media. Everything I see suggests Pat Robertson wins this round. Falcon2020 01:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

For our purposes here, notability is most certainly not just a function of publicity. Criticism is a scholarly activity, and so measures of notability for critics like publishing history, venues of publishing, and recognition in their field are right up there with publicity (and this standard is enshrined in WP:RS and AfD guidelines). Let's say George Bush makes a speech tomorrow in which he says that the movie An Inconvenient Truth "sucks ass". Almost certainly this will be more widely reported than any criticism Roger Ebert has ever made, but does this make George Bush a more notable movie critic than Ebert? Heck no. Because Robertson occasionally makes off-the-cuff nasty remarks about Islam barely makes him a critic at all in the scholarly sense we must uphold here, let alone place him above guys like Spencer who have published many bestselling and widely-reviewed books on the subject. The easiest way to see this, even easier than counting Google searches, is to see how many times Spencer is cited as a source in the Criticism of Islam articles vs. Robertson. There you go. - Merzbow 02:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I feel this is just a linguistic confusion between people who criticize and those who critique. Merzbow is right we do need to count scholarly value higher when dealing with critique of islam. I feel also that there is place in this article for mention of those notable people who say "islam is bad". So i think Pat Robertson should get some small mention but not his specific comments. Hypnosadist 03:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Entirely agree, Hypnosadist. - Merzbow 03:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

And what exactly are Robert Spencer's scholarly qualifications, if that is what defines notability? He is not a scholar of Islam. Falcon2020 03:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Of the set of people who can be called critics of Islam, he's near (and probably on) the top, with many bestselling books and articles written on the subject. I'm not claiming his qualifications compare to professers like Bernard Lewis, but I don't have to, since we're only comparing with other people who could be termed critics of Islam (and I don't know of any professors in the category). If professor Joe Blow at Yale University wakes up tomorrow and decides to become a critic of Islam like Spencer, I'd be there supporting Joe Blow's notability above Spencer's. - Merzbow 04:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The article is Criticism of Islam. The article is about criticism, not critics. The more notable the criticism, the more prominent it should be. While calling true Muslims "Satanic" is eye-catching, it in itself isn't a notable criticism because it lacks content. The criticisms of Spencer, Ye'or, Ibn Warraq, et al are more notable because they are researched and thorough. As such these criticisms should have greater prominence in the article. Arrow740 04:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I checked WP:Notability, and at least as far as Misplaced Pages's concerned, you all are right. Of the critics mentioned, I've only read Ibn Warraq's works, and the bit of venom I was able to choke down from his books was more than I could comfortably take. I'm not convinced either Warraq or Ali Sina were ever Muslim, I suspect them claiming to be apostates is more to make powerful marketing gimmick and enrage the conservative muslim crowd. Controversy sells. Are either Spencer's work or Ye'or's more scholarly? I'm not disputing their place here anyway. Falcon2020 04:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ye'or is vastly superior at languages and has produced english translations of never before translated documents that are used in academic circles. Spencer is much better at digging up dirt from historical texts and spotting when academics (such as Esposito) are

playing games such as selective editing, hope that helps Falcon. Hypnosadist 19:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Falcon2020 is a confirmed sockpuppet of the banned User:BhaiSaab. Arrow740 23:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting!Hypnosadist 23:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Undercover Mosque

Should this be added to the see also section. If not do we need a page that lists these sorts of documentries.Hypnosadist 03:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

A subsection or an article is definitely called for. These are highly notable and have received extensive press coverage. Arrow740 05:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

What should be in "Criticism of X" articles

Please see discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Views_please:_.22Criticism_of_X.22_articles. on "Criticism of X" articles. --BozMo talk 09:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

garbage links

These links being added here: are both of extremely low-quality and overwhelm the links section unduly with critical links. I encourage editors to remove them on sight. - Merzbow 05:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

alleged garbage links

Merzbow's request should be considered an act of vandalism. It's his personal opinion that the links are of low quality. If you want to see low quality, check out, for example the first link in the muslim responses to criticism section. On that website's home page, there is a link to a whole series of articles dedicated to showing that the Pentagon was hit by a missile on 9/11. If this is Merzbow's idea of "acceptable quality" ... what else do I need to say? ProtectWomen 05:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is called "Criticism of Islam"; these types of links are extremely appropriate to this article. Someone who arrived here to this exact page (regardless of their belief) would undoubtedly have some kind of interest in the subject of criticizing Islam. Whether or not you agree with the arguments and/or testimonials provided at the linked websites, they are offering the viewpoints nonetheless. Please do not try to "censor" something you don't want people to see. Misplaced Pages is not censored, especially where the material is 100% relevant to the topic --ProtectWomen 06:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Please remember, this is an article for discussion of criticism of Islam, not a soapbox for criticism of Islam. It doesn't matter whether we (the editors of this article) think the criticisms or rebuttals are valid. All that matters is that, if they are notable, they are included and discussed in the article. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 00:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Please remember, that a "soapbox" refers to the idea of standing up on a soapbox and lecturing- giving some kind of impromptu speech. Extremely appropriate links placed in a section titled "Directories of sites critical of Islam" is not a speech. Trying to imply so would be intellectually dishonest.

Obviously a lot of people aren't going to like the topic at hand and don't even want to acknowledge that widespread legitimate criticism of Islam exists. But Misplaced Pages is not censored in order to keep people from getting hurt feelings, particularly when the information is valid and relevant.ProtectWomen 19:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The links you added are overwhelming and are of poor quality, as rehashed above; policies and guidelines tell us to use high-quality sources and to not grant undue weight. I also suggest you stop giving bogus vandalism warnings to people who remove them. Please see WP:VAND for an overview of what is and is not considered vandalism. - Merzbow 20:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The external links section is a mess. We have no clear criteria for what is criticism. The Catholic encyclopedia is not critical in the least, it's actually a relatively scholarly viewpoint which attempts to remain neutral. I haven't looked at the Jewish encyclopedia but it wouldn't surprise me if it was similarly not criticism in the sense that this article uses it (although even that is muddled). Most of the links under "directories" are not directories and therefore should surely not be under that title. The problem is that academic sources rarely use criticism in the sense of pejoratives that this article talks about. You need to discuss more than just the current edit war about links... but you need to prune all of the links to make sure they are relevant to the subject at hand. gren グレン 20:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

ProtectWomen, I wasn't referring specifically to you. However, since you've singled me out, I'd like to respond. You stated that since a rebuttal link talked about how the pentagon was hit by a missile, then your links should be acceptable. That is NOT how Misplaced Pages works. Neither one is acceptable, so don't try to make a point by adding your links. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 19:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

KirbyT, Thanks for your directly reply. Actually I have to disagree with you. The discussion was specifically about the "garbage" excuse as the reason not to allow the links. I provided an example of why the very first link in the response to criticism section(the answering-christianity link) was garbage. Merzbow never offered an explanation for why all of the links were "garbage" much less a single one. Now I do not know Merzbow personally but I found the aggressive tone and lack of support for Merzbow's argument to be less than constructive. So please do not equate my position with that of the other user. Thank you.ProtectWomen 22:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Also Kirby, I was in no way trying to make a WP:POINT in the addition of the links. Again, this article is called "Criticism of Islam" ... The section in question is called "Directories of sites critical of Islam". I think it's obvious by the section title that the sites are not going to be "right or wrong"- just that they are sites critical of Islam. They are not "linkspam" or anything else- they are sites critical of Islam. I'm confused that this simple concept wouldn't be readily apparent to all users here (unless they had a POV agenda). --ProtectWomen 22:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

THis article should be deleted

it isn't a bad article. But it is very predijuce. iT does seriously offend muslims. Misplaced Pages should not have articles that criticize people's faith or beliefs -by MohsinMirza, who should sign his comments with four tilde (~).

When I see comments like the one above coming from adult humans, it makes me want to die. However, since this spirited little fellow is in 7th grade, it's not such a painful experience.

Young sir, Misplaced Pages's main goal is to transmit valuable information to our brains, for free. There is an endless amount of things to be learned on this planet and beyond it, and some of it just might upset you. However, this isn't Yourpedia, nor does it belong solely to any particular person or group. :Contributors to Misplaced Pages try to keep everything neutral, which means that factual information and published opinions are presented in a way that shows no bias towards a particular point of view. In short: this page does not attack Islam; it presents the arguments of reasonable scholars and other persons who have done so in the past and the present. They might be right, they might be wrong, but it is not our job to determine which is which.

To not have articles that criticize other people's beliefs would be censorship, and that sort of thing is definitely not what Misplaced Pages is about.--C.Logan 09:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not that I agree with the reasons of the original poster--I don't--but your reasoning bothers me as well. To present something as criticism it needs to be active. "Hadith report Muhammad consummated marriage with a nine year old girl" is not criticism. It is a statement of fact. The vast majority of academic writing purports to be neutral and descriptive trying to pass off arguments for how they believe things occurred / progressed. It is not to make moral judgment about the events. This article jumbles many different definitions of criticism

So, I don't think it's censorship to not "criticize" religion. We needn't praise it either. We should report the notable beliefs of and about that religion. In those beliefs we will find that people have been very critical about Muhammad for various reasons but there is not a coherent discourse of criticism that can be discussed. That is why this article is a piecemeal put together from what various sources think about Muhammad's / Islam's moral status. Overall it is not important or encyclopedic (except for on his own article) to know that Robert Spencer thinks Muhammad was an impostor who molested a little girl. It is, however, important to know that hadith report Muhammad consummated the marriage when she was very young and that this wasn't a big deal until modern times when Westerners tended to find it abhorrent and criticize it and Muslims reacted to that in various ways. Then the reader will react. Do they believe that it was okay? They can decide what they want. Neutrality isn't saying Robert Spencer doesn't think Muhammad is moral. It's presenting different notable views of Muhammad and then the reader will decide based on whatever their moral system may be. This article suffers from lack of clear definition or direction. It weaves personal moral criticism with political criticisms and then to cultural criticism and then chimes backs with little rebuttals. What this article ends up being is various editors read something about Islam that they feel is bad and then they cast it in a critical light. Take the "Apostasy in Islamic law" section. Nothing is inherently critical about the fact that the classical jurists described the death penalty. That's just a scholarly assessment of Islamic rulings on apostasy and you can find it to be good, bad, or indifferent. That is why this article is so bad--because it assumes a certain set of moral standards which violates neutrality. There is nothing wrong with having something in an article that someone thinks makes Muhammad look bad. There is something wrong with telling someone Muhammad is bad because of something he did. Without agents of criticism that's what this article is doing. gren グレン 20:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere does this article assume "a certain set of moral standards". The article is simply about "Criticism of Islam". Any notable criticism from a notable critic will be reported on, whether they are criticizing as an atheist, a Christian, whatever. It is long-established Misplaced Pages precedent (ArbCom precedent) to allow discussions of criticism of X if there are already articles about X and if there is notable criticism of X (as there usually is for controversial subjects). - Merzbow 21:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I have not disagreed that there is precedent--there is. I just think it's incredibly un-scholarly because it is not possible to present a coherent face of criticism. I equate it to being as stupid as Praise of Muhammad because that would be the opposite of this article--not Muhammad. But, the set of moral standards is not intentional and not where there is active criticism going on. However, with my example about apostasy there is no criticism it's a statement about Islamic law that is not making any moral judgment. It is problematic because the fact that it is here is a moral judgment made by the editor and not by any author. Lewis stating that the death penalty existed for apostasy is not a moral judgment it's his scholarly view. If he said "Islam is bad because Islamic law prescribes the death penalty for apostasy" that is criticism. But, as I've noted it tends to be more marginal views that work in the realm of active criticism whereas most scholars in our tradition (unless you get into the critical fields which view neutrality as a myth moreso) try to write in a descriptive manner. gren グレン 21:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The assertions of Islamic tradition, the Qur'an, and so on put forth in the main articles are implicitly "Praise of Islam/Muhammad" because they are presented without critique. In the same vein you will find in, say, the Juan Cole article (another controversial article), long passages that present Cole's view of things, unchallenged. It is a critical and necessary public service to also report on those who are opposed to the views of notable ideologies and persons. Having said that, I agree that the apostasy section should be re-written to focus around the discussion of criticism of Islamic laws on apostasy; it should not be a general discussion. Nobody is saying this article doesn't need more work. - Merzbow 21:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not true at all. They try to present the prevalent views of the religion--which is not praise in the least. The Islam article is not a praise of Islam section. It is a descriptive article which seeks to explain Islam a religion constructed by Muslims as seen by academic publication. It reserves moral judgment as articles should. The explicit purpose of this page is to bring in moral judgment. A Praise of Muhammad article would be the opinions of (mostly Muslim) people who talked about the great moral or other type of accomplishments of Muhammad. How he brought the Arabs out of jahiliya, etc. etc. My point is that is serves to create a disjunct to create positive/negative articles rather than discussing the various views within other sub articles. For instance, Muhammad's marriages could easily bring up the usually seen as "positive" aspects of his family life and those most Westerners will consider negative. I think it's a very unsophisticated way to deal with the subject if you feel that a criticism page is needed to show critical voices. Clearly, a neutrally written page will highlight different viewpoints. Combine that with our inability to clearly define criticism and even worse, the fact that probably half of the references are descriptive yet we are portraying them as criticism. Take:

1. Satanic Verses were two verses allegedly argued to have been added by Mohammad when he was tricked by Satan.
2. Quranic verse 4:34 allows Muslim men to beat their wives (lightly)
3. or other harsh punishments for acts like apostasy, homosexuality, adultery, and theft.

Predominantly Muslim countries, like Sudan, Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, frequently criticized the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for its perceived failure to take into account the cultural and religious context of non-Western countries. In 1981, the Iranian representative to the United Nations, Said Rajaie-Khorassani, articulated the position of his country regarding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, by saying that the UDHR was "a secular understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition", which could not be implemented by Muslims without trespassing the Islamic law. (This quote is Muslim countries criticizing Western institutions... there is no criticism of Islam involved... )

I would guess that most of us raised in Western liberal societies aren't a fan of a lot of that... but, it's not criticism. By presenting descriptive opinion as criticism we performing original research. Islam law could state the most abhorrent things but it only becomes criticism with a critic, not because an editor reads it and it offends their moral sensibilities. That is the main problem with this page. Editors see something they don't like about some Islamic ruling and it is added whether it is a critical source or not. gren グレン 06:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"The explicit purpose of this page is to bring in moral judgment." If you mean to report on moral judgments and responses to them, then yes, I agree. I agree with your statements about OR. Arrow740 08:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

gren, I think you're conflating two arguments, and that makes it hard to understand what you're actually advocating. I agree that all sections in a criticism article should revolve around the presentation and discussion of actual criticism, with non-critical material added only for background, not misrepresented as critical. Great, we agree on that.

But you seem to be also saying that Misplaced Pages should be whitewashed of criticism unless we also include praise. There we will have to continue to disagree; the statements of Islam/Juan Cole/any subject presented in their main articles are not presented as or with praise, true, but they are presented unchallenged. The goal of criticism subsections and articles is to serve the encyclopedic and public duties of presenting notable challenges to those views. Do you now see why a "Praise" section is not necessary? By nature, the "Praise" section would not be contributing any new information - it would just be agreeing with the unchallenged statements already presented. - Merzbow 19:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The Prophet of Doom

Deletion of this link was entirely inappropriate. The website HEAVILY references the Qu'ran and Sunnah. If you want to call it a "hate site" it is your right to have that personal opinion, but keep it to yourself. Some people call it a hate site; others would call it an 'anti-hate' site. The answer to the question is none of my business, nor is it yours. We are here to try and make the best on-line resource that Misplaced Pages could possibly be. Please see my comments in the section above titled alleged garbage links. You are displaying a gross POV by conclusively stating the site is a "hate site".

While the addition of this link to the bottom of the page Muhammad would be entirely inappropriate (I wouldn't do it), it is extremely appropriate and relevant to place it under a list of resource links in Criticism of Islam and also Criticism of Muhammad for that matter.

Notability? Try here and here ProtectWomen 22:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Self-promotion. Remember, Misplaced Pages's policy on notability states:

"A topic is notable if it has been the subject of at least one substantial or multiple, non-trivial published works from sources that are reliable and independent of the subject and of each other.

• What constitutes "published works" is broad and encompasses published works in all forms, including but not limited to newspapers, books and e-books, magazines, television and radio documentaries, reports by government agencies, scientific journals, etc.
• "Independence" excludes all self-publicity, advertising by the subject, self-published material, autobiographies, press releases, and other such works affiliated with the subject, its creators, or others with a vested interest or bias.2.
• Several journals simultaneously publishing articles about an occurrence, does not always constitute independent works, especially when the authors are relying on the same sources, and merely restating the same information.
• The "multiple" qualification is not specific as to number, and can vary depending on the reliability of the sources and the other factors of notability. For example, several newspapers all publishing the same article from a news wire service is not a multiplicity of works, while several researchers or journalists all doing their own research on a single subject and writing their own separate articles do constitute "multiple" sources
• "Reliable", as explained in the reliable source guidelines, requires the source to have a reasonable level of editorial integrity to allow attributable evaluation of the topic's notability.

The subject-specific notability guidelines expand on these descriptions and include subject-specific details and interpretations. Some may also provide alternative criteria that a topic may pass in lieu of meeting this common criterion, though their spirit is still to ensure than an encyclopedic article may be written about the topic.

Using the prophetofdoom website to establish the website's notability is what prevents the website from being listed here, per bolded part. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 22:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Kirby, you present a very good argument- the problem is that what you are arguing is not what the issue at hand is.

Let me explain:

I am glad you gave me a direct link to the Misplaced Pages guideline you quoted because I don't think I would have found it myself. Anyway I'm going to put in bold the key word that illustrates why the evidence you present to support your position is not actually evidence to support your position.

"Notable is defined as "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice". All topics should meet a minimum threshold of notability for an article on that topic to be included in Misplaced Pages. These guidelines ensure that there is sufficient source material to include an attributed, encyclopedic article about each topic.

A topic is notable if it has been the subject of secondary sources. . . . .

A topic is notable if. . .Topics that do not satisfy notability criteria are dealt with in two ways: merging and deletion."

I could go on, but I think you get the point. The guideline for notability refers to topics; NOT links. There is a big difference between me starting an article titled The Prophet of Doom and a link to the site (by the way there IS a topic for its author Craig Winn). Your primary source defending your position to remove a link only applies to topics and not links

The Prophet of Doom link is obviously not being inserted as a 'reliable primary source'. The link is being inserted into the article (at the bottom) because it is one of the most prominent sites critical of Islam. I have to say it's getting tiring typing the same stuff over and over, so I'm going to cut an paste something I wrote on my talk page to Netscott:

"Also, I never stated my position about "The Prophet of Doom" website, but to be honest, I think he is too critical of Muslims. But that is besides the point. The article is about "Criticism of Islam" ... the section in question is "Directories of sites critical of Islam". Please note that the link is only that and nothing more. A link. The Prophet of Doom is not claimed to be a primary source for the article. Anyone in the public (i.e. non-editors of Misplaced Pages) who found themselves on that page would likely be interested in what the criticism of Islam was. The directory of sites critical of Islam is not an endorsement of those sites, but a small list of prominent sites presenting arguments critical of Islam. Arguments could be made that ANY of the sites in the Critical Sites AND the Muslim Responses sites listings were "hate sites". That's not a judgment for us to make. It is our responsibility to neutrally provide the information and let people decide for themselves. User:ProtectWomen|ProtectWomen 05:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)"

--ProtectWomen 05:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello, it is a hatesite... what other reason does Misplaced Pages need? (→Netscott) 06:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Two questions: 1) "it is a hatesite" - is this statement a fact or an opinion (one-word answer, please)?

2)The Prophet of Doom website is a site critical of Islam (yes or no, please)? --ProtectWomen 08:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Kirby, when we have Craig Winn and Prophet of Doom as seperate individual articles, I dont understand how PropheOfDoom.net is not notable. But BESIDES THAT, notability is NOT applicable to External Links. See WP:EL. Looking at this standard, explain to me why ProphetOfDoom.net does not qualify to be here. Also, remember to apply the standards to ALL website links in this section. --Matt57 18:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think PoD is notable enough for a link, the pertinent question is whether it is an extremist site (let's not use the loaded word "hate site", policy uses the word "extremist"). I'm on the record as saying that faithfreedom.org is extremist because of the Nazi comparisons it uses. Can those opposed to PoD present similar quotes? - Merzbow 19:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying a site is extremist because it is strongly critical of Islam? Then we have some "extremist" articles on Misplaced Pages: Ali Sina. What makes POD or FFI an extremist site by WP's defination? Please point this out. --Matt57 12:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If I recall Sina had a page on FFI where he directly compared Islam to Nazism, among other things. That's extremist according to anybody's standards, I hope. I don't know if there are similar comparisons on PoD, which is why I asked that question. - Merzbow 18:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Protectwomen, I understand your concerns, but the key issue here is notability. a depository of links. Only the most notable websites critical of Islam should be on the list. Therefore, if you cannot provide evidence that prophetofdoom.net is notable (per Misplaced Pages's definition of notable), then there is no reason to include it there. Matt57, Craig Winn is notable for reasons besides his criticism of Islam. And, just because Prophet of Doom, which is a book, is notable, does not mean that prophetofdoom.net, which is a website, is notable. You cited WP:EL. Notice, however, items 2 and 3 of links to avoid:

2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Misplaced Pages:Attribution#Reliable sources. 3. Links mainly intended to promote a website.

I believe that prophetofdoom.net does not comply with those two. Thanks. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 19:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Kirbymf, as I SAID, notabiltiy is NOT an issue for External Links. The 2 above criteria and the rest in that list, are the ONLY ones that can be considered. --Matt57 20:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• per this discussion, i have decided to go about trimming the EL section of extraneous links. 'religionofpeace' focuses on apparent 'terrorism', SAQ is more relevant in Qur'an, and FFI as Merzbow noted is an extremist hate site. ITAQALLAH 01:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Relatively well sourced but suffers from primary sourcing

This article is actually really well sourced. It is one of the best sourced criticism articles on Misplaced Pages. BUT, most of the sources are primary sources, this article needs to rely on aggregations of criticism in order to exist. Any time a claim is made about critics such as "many critics" one need a reliable secondary source to aggregate those claims, otherwise if Wikipedians do it, we are acting as the secondary source but we are supposed to be a tertiary source. In summary, the article needs sources which aggregate and analyze criticism of Islam. --Quirex 16:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

1. Edward W. Said, Islam Through Western Eyes, The Nation, January 1, 1998
2. ^ Montgomery Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, London, Oxford University Press, 1961, p. 108, ISBN 0-19-881078-4,
3. "Who Is Daniel Pipes?". CAIR official website.
4. Watt, W. Montgomery (1961). Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. Oxford University Press. p. 229. ISBN 0-19-881078-4.
5. Armstrong, Karen (1993). Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet. HarperSanFrancisco. p. 165. ISBN 0-06-250886-5.
6. Esposito, John L. (2002). What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-515713-3.
7. Esposito, John L. (2003). Unholy War : Terror in the Name of Islam. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-516886-0.
8. Esposito, John L. (1999). The Islamic Threat : Myth or Reality?. Oxford University Press. pp. 225–228. ISBN 0-19-513076-6.
9. Edward W. Said, Islam Through Western Eyes, The Nation, January 1, 1998

• B-Class Islam-related articles
• Mid-importance Islam-related articles
• WikiProject Islam articles