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List of attacks by the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia

List of attacks by the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

• Delete The article is a very specific, unencyclopedic list, which may have been created with a POV agenda. Links to articles that use explicitly racist language. Augustgrahl 04:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  How on earth can you call a users first (and last) edit an agenda? -- Cat 10:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact that this article was created using extremist racist sites as its main sources strongly implies that the article was made with an agenda inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. Honestly, if an article was written based on sources that said the opposite, that Turks are raised from birth to hate Armenians, or that the United States kisses Turkish ass, you'd probably want it removed. It's no different with TallArmenianTale. The links have to go, regardless of whether this article stays or is deleted. -- Augustgrahl 14:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. This list is encyclopedic and is a list of diplomats killed as a result of ASALA attacks. This list is similar to those serial murder/killing related articles. These individual attacks are notable enough to have articles on them. -- Cat 04:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, with the addition that it is a typo, "members" is typoed as "mebers" ⇒ SWATJester 04:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  Page was renamed right after nomination. -- Cat 05:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete horribly cited, tallarmeniantale major hate site etc doesn't deserve a article. Artaxiad 04:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete (striking, see below in thread) only one apparently primary source...? Delete unless someone can heavily source this in five days. - Denny 05:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  *Sigh* it comes from ATAA probably one of the most hated by Armenians for there "works". Artaxiad 05:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  That is not a deletion criteria. Misplaced Pages is not censored based on "hated by Armenians" (whatever that means). -- Cat 05:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  Why are you setting time tables? The page was started just 7 days ago. You can't possibly expect a featured list in a course of 13 days now, right? -- Cat 05:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  my 5 days comment is based on how long AfDs 'typically' run, is all. I'm looking at the sources you posted and mentioned on my talk page now. - Denny 06:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  this source talks about "230 armed attacks, killing 71 innocent people, including 31 Turkish diplomats, and seriously wounding over 520 people". The scope of this list is restricted to attacks by ASALA on turkish diplomatic personnel. -- Cat 06:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  That source is from a Turkish site, I can find alot of dirt on other ethnicities if I look up Armenian websites but I don't because its POV, offensive and not a third party not even reliable you can't base it on that site. Artaxiad 06:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  That source is from army.mil in other words US Army domain. Nothing Turkish about the site. -- Cat 08:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment/update: Looking at the sources provided now I don't doubt that the article is encyclopediac and valid (i.e. these people were killed), but the sources themselves are extremely... extremist on one side. I am not taking sides, I don't know Armenian history from Turk history. But when one page is quoting Batman Begins to make its point about genocide... I can't take it totally seriously. That said, changing to Keep for the article, not particularly the title. This will need huge clean up and way, way better sourcing than just pro-one side sources. That is, the material is fine (in that the attacks happened), but using just anti-Armenian or anti-Turkish sites would be horribly bad. maybe UN pages, and actual media sources? I think this will be more of a content rather than Afd Issue. - Denny 06:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very hard to find a completely neutral source (I would welcome one however). Non-Turkish entities do not seem to care much about Turkish diplomats. I am certain there are newspaper entries for individual attacks but due to the age of the attacks these entities do not seem to be available online. -- Cat 06:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Aren't there lots of similiar articles for attacks by x group vs. y group like this? I seem to recall... seeing them. Maybe see how/what they did? I'm not sure, unfortunately (I seriously don't know much about either, and don't think I even know anyone that I know to be of either ethnicity IRL). - Denny 06:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

There are few examples I found at random: List of Hamas suicide attacks, List of ETA attacks. Hamas attack article relies on Israeli Government sources. ETA one doesn't have that many sources and the ones it is from Spanish Government. -- Cat 08:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. There's no reason to delete a perfectly encyclopaedic article. Where else could these names be listed if not in an article specifically dedicated to them? Parishan 05:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

None, if the attacks are so notable they should have articles on the people even, which barely theres only two and the sources are not third party and very POV. Artaxiad 05:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The external links are very inappropriate, Armenian butt-kissing France comments like that from a site should not be include in a article. Artaxiad 05:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

POV is not a verb. Sources are not expected to comply with wikipedias NPOV. Neutral sites are preferred but not required. -- Cat 05:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Still doesn't matter these are not reliable sources, they are not third party, especially from the ATAA there main page, shows Anti-Armenian context, this article is no where near finished, or deserves a article its self, plus the people who died don't even have articles. Artaxiad 06:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Weather you like the sites or not is not a part of deletion criteria. Please take it to articles talk page. -- Cat 06:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete This material appears to be covered adequately at Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia. Not every attack or name needs to be listed; most of the casualties were minor embassy employees, not ambassadors. Brianyoumans 05:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  Any attack on any embassy is notable, maybe not notable enough to have a complete article on them. These are diplomatic installations. I intend to reformat the list on a "list of attacks" format in due time. -- Cat 05:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Why do we need an additional article? The major attacks are all listed in the ASALA article, and the overall numbers of attacks, casualties, and injuries. This looks like just a POV fork, or an attempt to have just yet another article on the subject. I don't see that this article adds much to our coverage of the issue. At present it doesn't even link back to the other articles. Brianyoumans 07:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• It is merely a chronological activity of ASALA. Many such lists exist. See: List of Hamas suicide attacks for example. I just started working on it, don't expect a featured article to pop out from a few edits.... -- Cat 08:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and improve I am having a very hard time understanding why this article has to go.--Doktor Gonzo 08:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Per Augustgrahl. -- Aivazovsky 12:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and improve Nothing unencyclopedic about this list. –mysid☎ 13:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete unless WP:ATTributed to reliable sources. There's a perfectly good section on attacks in the well-referenced Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia article. POV fork anyone? Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and add the information to the ASALA page. Thats where it belongs. --Vartanm 16:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

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