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Next pass: FAR prep

See Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 10 for earlier pre-FAR work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:25, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Reliable ??

Likely to be questioned at FAR:

• Shanghairanking.com
• topuniversities.com
• southwestvoices

Be prepared to explain how these sources meet WP:RS (if they do). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:57, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

What do you want to see instead? I have consulted Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Higher education, Misplaced Pages:College and university article advice, a B-class article according to the WikiProject: College and university rankings. Also looked at Boston and Cleveland, neither of which seems to follow a standard. Boston cites the Carnegie Classification and membership in the Association of American Universities. Cleveland cites US News & World Report. Shanghai and QS that you singled out here are two of the three "internationally recognized" college ranking orgs.

I used Southwest Voices to replace the Southwest Journal that went extinct recently. Southwest Voices says only they are journalists and member-funded. If I have to, I will find alternate sources but this is pretty difficult when the pandemic ran local papers out of business. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:40, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Just be prepared to answer if queried. That is, gather your facts. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

RSN tells me Twin Cities news outlets Southwest Voices, Racket, North News, Heavy Table, KRSM, and NewPrensa have joined forces under the banner of Twin Cities Media Group to be one-stop shop for local advertisers.. Southwest Voices and Racket can never replace Southwest Journal and City Pages but both were cleared to use in non-controversial local news. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:26, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, the three universities ranking organizations used are all fine. I don't expect they'll be questioned. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:48, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Citation issues

Some page nos missing on books

Thank you! Both (#14 and #27) are books cited inside Notes. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:37, 8 April 2023 (UTC) Fixed now. Maybe someone will double check them because they are confusing. I have an ancient physical copy of one of them in another city. MN Historical Society uses their Borealis Books imprint, and Lerner Publishing is using Zest Books.-SusanLesch (talk) 23:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC) P.S. I went over these again. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:09, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Incomplete citation: No publisher listed: "City of Lakes Loppet (USA) – Worldloppet". Archived from the original on April 14, 2021. Retrieved March 3, 2021.

Sometimes publishers are listed as websites, causing inconsistency between citations. Pick a format, make it consistent. Using the website always causes problems, as it italicizes publishers which need not be in italics.

* As another example of same, sometimes we have US Census Bureau, and others we have data.census.gov (my suggestion is US Census Bureau as publisher, and if you really need the data.census.gov, that is listed as Work= )

* Another: carleton.edu ... why not publisher= Carleton College ?

• Sometimes publishers are wikilinked, other times they are not; what is the citation style here ?

I can go either way. I prefer to link authors who have Misplaced Pages articles. But I see no need to link every instance of every publication and organization.-SusanLesch (talk) 23:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:57, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Most of these are done and I can finish Monday. I changed back to US from U.S. because I will be a typo machine the other way. Main exceptions are U.S. Bank, U.S. Bank Stadium, and U.S. Pond Hockey Championships (none of which should we change).-SusanLesch (talk) 22:58, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

 Question: How should two-part publishers be handled? I found two ways: "Gale Family Library, Minnesota Historical Society" and "US Census Bureau: American Community Survey". -SusanLesch (talk) 14:31, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

For example, publisher = US Census Bureau, work= American community survey. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:46, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

 Question: Are these two remaining compound refs acceptable? I have no combined source. Under Sports, hosting of major sporting events, and under Music, list of opera companies. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:02, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

See note; the bundled citation was unnecessarily cumbersome and will be hard to update. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:03, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

There are 22 instances of postscript= meaning 22 cumbersome refs. I changed one as an example, to leave them bundled but easier to decipher. That is a personal preference so I leave it to others to decide if that is more workable and to either revert mine or change the rest. I find the long unbroken steams very hard to read. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:07, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I unbundled every instance of "postscript=" (and have learned not to make these in the future!). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:05, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

 Question: Should a report (that's used three times) be recited inline, or should it be sfns and added to Journal articles in works cited? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:02, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Indifferent, as long as you are internally consistent. Since it's not actually a book, and not actually a journal article, I feel like it's OK as is. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Outstanding issues

 Comment:To stop visitors from adding them. This was probably the most frequent drive-by edit to this article. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this list, Susan, as I had lost track. I don't feel this is an optimal solution. Could we not deal with this via a hidden comment to not add the Wild? Or could we find a source that gives some connection between them and Minneapolis proper ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Looked for but did not find a source that fits, so removed the two teams and put in an HTML comment. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

 Question: WP:USCITIES guidelines say under sports, "It is common practice for sports sections to include discussions of teams that are within the metro area, even if the team's home venue is outside the city limits." Does that mean we ought to include both soccer and hockey? I believe so.-SusanLesch (talk) 17:42, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

 Question: Is there a written rule that we cannot use search results as a source? I looked at WP:RS and didn't find it but think I have seen it somewhere. (The state of Minnesota has all these schools in a database but only retrieves them with search.) -SusanLesch (talk) 20:00, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

When we get to the point of pinging her in, Nikkimaria will be able to answer that; for now, not to worry ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Are you perhaps thinking of WP:ELNO #9? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:25, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Could be! (Wondering how you knew this one.) I take it then that search results are not prohibited? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

The only other relevant guideline I'm aware of on the topic is WP:SWYRT, which wouldn't apply here. I will mention that there have been objections raised at RSN and similar to broad search results being used as a citation - eg "So-and-so published 10 books" cited to a Google Books search page. But more "niche" search results of the kind I think you're describing have been used as sources in other FAs, particularly in music articles where awards records are often accessed that way. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Nikkimaria. No idea where I picked this up. I understand the distinction you made. Best wishes, SusanLesch (talk) 13:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

•  Question: I used this bizarre converter at the LOC. It turns 13 digits that begin with 978 into smaller hyphenated numbers that start with 0. But underneath this converter is a note to ONLY USE isbns that begin with 978 or 979. I give up. What is required? (For an example, J. K. Rowlings has some books beginning with 978 and some starting with 0.) This is an easy task once I understand what is needed. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

  I will post queries to figure out who speaks this language; I don't :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:38, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  No one has responded, so I say let someone sort it at the FAR if anyone complains. That's one of those things that someone eventually comes along and fixes (and even FAs are unfinished). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:11, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

•  Question: User:Svenskbygderna, can you double check the section "2020 census and 2021 estimates"? -SusanLesch (talk) 23:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

•  Question: User:WikiWikiWayne, can you go through to add archive-urls? I suspect there is no hurry; this could be done at the end of FAR. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Economy (new)

You did well. Lass says flour milling "stimulated banking in Minneapolis" (p. 164) and lumbering made the "first major accumulation of capital" (p. 181). I like your new reordering. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Great; glad I didn't goof, and the text seemed to imply that the source would support this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:44, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Parks and rec

Approximately 15 percent of land in Minneapolis is parks, in accordance with the 2020 national median, and 98 percent of residents live within one-half mile (0.8 km) of a park.

• Where do I find this comparison to the median (I'm not seeing it)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  In the first reference. "15% of Minneapolis's city land is used for parks and recreation. National median 15%" -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  Thx, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:29, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

• Is it worth mentioning that MPLS spends $317 per person according to the source-- relatively high compared to others? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  Not a big deal IMO. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

• Should we be mentioning MPLS fell from 1st to 5th ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  I think we did used to say that. Probably removed during the purge of rankings. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  That is, are there any factors that led to this decline that are worthy of mention from a POV standpoint? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

From the Star Tribune, "This year, the ParkScore Index looked closely at how cities are using parks to combat the climate crisis." Minneapolis redesigned North Commons Park which wasn't something ParkScore covered. Anything more than that would be difficult for me to say (I don't have another source). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:20, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I think you're right we need to say that. Added back in now. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:23, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Today's Star Tribune explains this a little. Apparently The Trust for Public Land methodology is playing catch up to the Twin Cities. In any case they ranked Minneapolis at third for 2022. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:33, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Datedness?

This is a 2003 source: is it current?

• Water supply is managed by four watershed districts that correspond with the Mississippi and the city's three creeks.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is still accurate but I updated the source. Good catch, thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:43, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Theatre

This statement doesn't say anything, is basically just promotional, and should be replaced with something of substance:

• As of 2020, Minneapolis has numerous theater companies.

In searching for a better source and something worth saying, I came across:

• Twin Cities Thrive Through the Arts, ABC News

which is great for what we need, but is 2002 (dated). Can anyone find something like that, but more recent? The cultural sections here are cited to self a lot, and it should be possible to do better. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The sentence you found replaced what became a crowd-sourced list of theater companies. Afraid I know next to nothing about this topic. Found two possibilities:

Hewitt, Chris. Twin Cities Pioneer Press. “Why the Twin Cities Attracts Playwrights – and Usually Keeps Them,” May 21, 2015.

Minneapolis/St. Paul Season in Review 2020/21 by Eric del Rosario (Readable in Misplaced Pages Library) actors react to George Floyd's death and the pandemic -SusanLesch (talk) 23:24, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I can't access those; can you quote any usable bits (they should be general descriptions of the arts scene rather than specific reviews or specific seasons). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:00, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

SusanLesch this might be useful if you can get hold of it. ISBN 9780873519717, "An inside look at Twin Cities theater and how Minneapolis-St. Paul became home to one of the nation's most vibrant and innovative theatrical communities." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:34, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Another: Minneapolis magazine, history of theatre. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:39, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Curtain up, Star Tribune. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

None of the sources we have so far impress me much (no index, gabby writing style). But perhaps we can make something useful. I think it is fair to single out the Playwrights' Center since they briefly helped advance the career of August Wilson. How's this?

Fifteen of the fifty-five Twin Cities theatre companies counted in 2015 by Peg Guilfoyle had a physical site in Minneapolis. About half the remainder performed in variable spaces throughout the metropolitan area. With funding from the McKnight and Jerome foundations, the Playwrights' Center in Minneapolis awards fellowships and stipends to playwrights to develop their work.

-SusanLesch (talk) 15:47, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

References

1. ^ Guilfoyle, Peg (September 15, 2015). "Fifty-five Theaters in the Twin Cities Metro". Offstage Voices: Life in Twin Cities Theater. Minnesota Historical Society Press. pp. 455–484. ISBN 978-0-87351-971-7.
2. "Theater Begins Here". Playwrights' Center. Retrieved April 8, 2023.

Prose

These two sentences are not connected; explain to the reader how the first sentence relates to the second-- else, why is it here ?

• West Broadway Avenue was a cultural center during the early 20th century but by the 1950s, flight to the suburbs began and streetcar service ended citywide. One of the largest urban food deserts in the U.S. is on the north side of Minneapolis, where as of mid-2017, 70,000 people had access to only two grocery stores. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  I agree there is a disconnect there, but also some cause and effect. What about rewording the second sentence to, "One of the largest urban food deserts in the U.S. developed on the north..."? -SusanLesch (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  The disconnect is perhaps geographical, as the casual reader does not know what is where (West Broadway is meaningless). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

OK. How about we drop the first part? A lot of people in this neighborhood don't have cars (we say that in Transportation). After flight to the suburbs began in the 1950s, streetcar service ended citywide. One of the largest urban food deserts in the U.S. developed on the north side of Minneapolis, where as of mid-2017, 70,000 people had access to only two grocery stores. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:12, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

That is more understandable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:13, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Loring

We can't use Charles M. Loring to tout himself, but Nadinechek and Neckar do specifically mention Loring and others (in the passage about working with "kindred spirits") wrt Cleveland's work on the parks, so I have rejigged this bit to avoid WP:SYNTHesis of sources. I hope. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I hadn't noticed the SYNTH. I rejiggered again to give Loring prominence among the community leaders who worked with Cleveland. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:58, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Wide image

@SandyGeorgia: You reverted my edit, and re-inserted this image using Template:Wide image. The image is not categorized as a "panoramic", its dimensions are dissimilar to the example at WP:PIC#Panoramas, and it adds significant whitespace to the article. Also, WP:PIC#Panoramas suggests using the wide image template for "Images wider than 550px or so". You added it as 500 px. Could you explain? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 08:30, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

See Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 10#IN USE above; perhaps your edit occurred while I had the article {{inuse}} to correct citation issues (tedious work). In trying to track down the error introduced in the intermediate edits, I gave up and started over. As indicated above, I thought I had reinstated your edit afterwards; if I missed something, please feel free to re-do it. I hope there is a better way to address that image, as it would make sense to see it wide, although the white space has been troubling me as well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

That is, it strikes me that if someone could crop the bottom batch of green-tree space and some of the top blue sky from this image, its dimensions could be made more conducive to a wide image. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:44, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I've put out queries re cropping the image (and the other outstanding issues listed above). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:50, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, while you are here, have you looked at #Proposal to archive talk so we can begin a fresh look pre-FAR? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to change this to 1000px like Boston and Cleveland. If Magnolia is willing, he can crop the photo. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The images at Boston and Cleveland are scaled such that a wide image is not too tall; in this case, stretching it to 1000px makes for a gynormous image, which could be solved by cropping it to cut off some of the top and some of the bottom. (Sorry, can't do it myself, don't do images.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

This is done. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:46, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Two stars

Art and music

@Magnolia677: and @SandyGeorgia: and @Bobamnertiopsis: and everybody else: instead of cataloging a flat list of superlatives that don't mean anything, I tried to project a little energy in visual arts and music. This is harder to do than it looks. Would you mind proofreading these three paragraphs using your critical eyes?

From visual art:

Walker Art Center began as a fabulous private art collection in the home of lumberman T. B. Walker during the Gilded Age. Six days a week, a maid welcomed the public at the door offering free admittance and a catalog. Around 1940, the Walker's focus shifted to modern and contemporary art. The center expanded in 2005 with an addition by Herzog & de Meuron. The Walker says, together with the Minneapolis Sculpture Garden across the street, it receives more than 700,000 visitors each year.

The Minneapolis Institute of Art (Mia) is located in south-central Minneapolis on the 10-acre (4-hectare) former homestead of the Morrison family. The collection of more than 90,000 artworks spans six continents and about 5,000 years. Perhaps reflecting the ambitions of the founders—for whom the name "museum" was too limited—competition winner McKim, Mead & White designed a complex seven times the size of what opened in 1915. Between 1972 and 1974, Kenzō Tange built right and left wings in the minimalist style yet following the original McKim, Mead & White scheme, adding 314,000 square feet (29,200 m). In 2006, Michael Graves added the 13,000-square-foot (1,200 m) Target wing to the south.

From music:

Singer and multi-instrumentalist Prince was born in Minneapolis and lived in the area most of his life. Prince was a musical prodigy, enriched by a music program at The Way Community Center, who first played Sam's in 1981, the year the club was renamed First Avenue. To the amusement and sometimes dismay of management—whose skillful booking had overcome racial discrimination downtown, sightseers began to think Prince owned First Avenue & 7th St Entry, which had become Minnesota's number one tourist destination. But the revenue was welcome, and the artist and the club advanced each other's reputation and influence— Prince was a superstar and First Avenue was the heart of American 1980s rock music.

References

1. Whitmore 2004, Whitmore cites a 1903 article in the New York Herald, "...the gallery is open to the public six days in the week, and all who ring his bell and ask to see the old masters receive not only permission from the white-aproned maid who answers the ring, but also a catalogue as well.". sfn error: no target: CITEREFWhitmore2004 (help)
2. ^ "About: Walker Art Center History". Walker Art Center. Retrieved April 14, 2023.
3. Hess 1985, p. 28. sfn error: no target: CITEREFHess1985 (help)
4. "Collection". Minneapolis Institute of Art. Retrieved April 14, 2023.
5. Hess 1985, p. 29. sfn error: no target: CITEREFHess1985 (help)
6. ^ "Minneapolis Institute of Art". Society of Architectural Historians. Retrieved April 14, 2023.
7. Gabler, Jay (January 27, 2018). "So you're a Prince fan visiting Minnesota: Five must-see stops". Minnesota Public Radio. Archived from the original on August 15, 2021. Retrieved December 20, 2019.
8. Roise, Charlene; Gales, Elizabeth; Koehlinger, Kristen; Goetz, Kathryn; Hess, Roise and Company; Zschomler, Kristen; Rouse, Stephanie; Wittenberg, Jason (December 2018). Minneapolis Music History, 1850–2000: A Context (Report). City of Minneapolis. pp. 44, 59. Retrieved April 2, 2023.
9. Kohen, Jessica (June 19, 2022). "Remembering Prince at First Avenue". Minnesota Good Age. Retrieved April 16, 2023.
10. ^ Matos, Michaelangelo (March 14, 2016). "Everybody Is a Star: How the Rock Club First Avenue Made Minneapolis the Center of Music in the '80s". Pitchfork. Condé Nast. Retrieved April 16, 2023.
11. ^ Riemenschneider, Chris (2016). "Prince and First Avenue: a history of the club's ties to its brightest star". Star Tribune. Fingerhut laughed last week about how often Prince was mistaken as the club's owner in those days: 'I was fine with that. In a way, he did own it.'
12. Matos, Michaelangelo (March 14, 2016). "Everybody Is a Star: How the Rock Club First Avenue Made Minneapolis the Center of Music in the '80s". Pitchfork. Condé Nast. Retrieved April 16, 2023. Chrissie Dunlap told Pitchfork, 'The rumors were, "That's Prince's club."'
13. Jennings, Sylvia (April 3, 2020). "A history of Prince's performances at First Avenue". The Current. Minnesota Public Radio. Retrieved April 15, 2023. ...one of the reasons this club has become as iconic as it is, is due to the legacy left by hometown hero, Prince. Throughout the '80s, Prince made a name for First Avenue while simultaneously, First Avenue made a name for Prince.
14. Azerrad, Michael (2002). "Chapter 5: Hüsker Dü, Chapter 6: The Replacements". Our Band Could Be Your Life. Back Bay Books. ISBN 978-0-316-78753-6.

Meanwhile I am done playing hopscotch and am methodically going through sources top to bottom (about half done). -SusanLesch (talk) 15:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: Thank you for your effort, and for seeking input. My concerns is the same as when I first began editing this article: removing the unencylopedic, over-the-top, tourist guide promotion and puffery. Here is my input:

• "spans six continents" - there are only six continents with people living on them. Perhaps "international".
• "Six days a week, a maid welcomed the public at the door offering free admittance and a catalog". Unnecessary on a city article. Readers can visit the specific Misplaced Pages article for cute anecdotes.
• "Perhaps reflecting the ambitions of the founders—for whom the name 'museum' was too limited". Or perhaps not? I dunno. See MOS:WEASEL.
• "who first played Sam's" - what is "Sam's"?
• "To the amusement and sometimes dismay of management" - unencyclopedic tone.
• "But the revenue was welcome, and the artist and the club advanced each other's reputation and influence— Prince was a superstar and First Avenue was the heart of American 1980s rock music." - over the top. --Magnolia677 (talk) 17:36, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for your suggestions, Magnolia677. All of them have been addressed. Prince is now a moot point and has been drastically cut. The maid story is only in the footnote. Re: "I dunno", MOS:WEASEL is fine because the Mia reference is supported by a reliable source (Society of Architectural Historians), and a direct quote has been added.

I caution you not to remove "free admission" which you have interpreted in the past as part of a tourist guidebook. It was, rather, a philosophy of the proprietors (from Whitmore 2004, "Unlike most Gilded Age private galleries, Walker's was clearly designed not only for exclusive social gatherings but also for the cultural edification of the general public. In short, this was essentially a public private gallery.") -SusanLesch (talk) 15:48, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

P.S. I tried a couple configurations but could not find a good way to say "international" in place of "spans six continents". Maybe someone else can find an answer. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:49, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Demographics

Can anyone come up with a better way to say this? The largest concentration living in the state, the Minneapolis population of people from India increased by 1,000 between 2000 and 2010. Maybe? The Minneapolis population of people from India, who are the largest concentration living in the state, increased by 1,000 between 2000 and 2010. Thanks in advance. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

• How about The number of Indian people born in India increased by 1,000 between 2000 and 2010, making Minneapolis the largest concentration of Indian people in the state. I assume you're talking about foreign-born Indians who immigrated to Minneapolis, right? Svenskbygderna (talk) 03:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Much better! Right, that is who I'm trying to describe. Only quirk left is that Minneapolis is a city not a concentration. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:56, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Prince growing up

Just for the archive. I removed a bundle of two extra refs from the image of Prince. These two refs, one of which still connects, were all we had to go on at the time. I called Lise Houlton who kindly told me the story was true. The ref that remains in the caption appeared in print after featured article review. Thanks to Ms. Palmer and the Star Tribune for their article, which has since gone 404 but was captured by the Internet Archive.

References

1. Palmer, Caroline (April 26, 2000). "Footsteps". City Pages. Vol. 21, no. 1012. Archived from the original on October 29, 2012, and Minneapolis Arts Commission (June 2005). "The Minneapolis Plan for Arts & Culture" (PDF). City of Minneapolis. Archived (PDF) from the original on June 28, 2007. Retrieved June 29, 2007.

-SusanLesch (talk) 23:21, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Not as colorful, but for our purposes more informative, I replaced the caption ref again with a Sheila Regan piece. This Palmer ref is for the archive.

References

1. Palmer, Caroline (May 5, 2016). "Dancers recall Prince as a hard-working 'darling' in tights and ballet slippers". Star Tribune. Archived from the original on May 4, 2018. Retrieved May 3, 2018. While growing up, Prince had ballet training through an initiative called the Urban Arts Program...Prince took classes with MDT in Dinkytown.

Magazines

I was mistaken, the Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association may be defunct but not since "around 2013". The Internet Archive has a copy of the top page of their member directory from 2018. Somewhere the organization might have been changed to the Minnesota Media & Publishing Association. Both use the initialism MMPA, and one or the other let their domain expire at mmpa.net. I am still trying to find a working URL for a list of members which might be our only reliable overview of local news. (This organization was mentioned in Media Tales by O'Meara and Keller (2007); who say they had 95 members statewide in 2006, and of course a good number are published in the suburbs or Saint Paul.) P.S. I asked for help at WikiProject Minnesota. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:03, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Internet Archive had a copy from 2011 and 2013. This is the methodology I followed for magazines, beginning with the MMPA list.

• removed published outside Minneapolis or moved out of the city, (include Minnesota Women's Press who moved in from Saint Paul)
• removed alumni magazines (journalism school, U of M overall, borderline but still dropped was extension, and school of public health)
• removed defunct (since before the pandemic)
• removed obscure nonmembers (Rift and Spout)
• include one nonmember we know is notable (Rain Taxi)
• include student publications (The Tower, Great River Review, law review etc.)
• removed Restaurant Finance Monitor (better known is sister publication Franchise Times which was cited in Media Tales)

Not perfect but I hope a manageable, smaller group. Input is welcome. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:17, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

P.S. Reversed my cut of Restaurant Finance Monitor. It's used to cite other Misplaced Pages articles.

References

1. "Search result". Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association. 2011–2013. Retrieved April 29, 2023.

Climate data

Just checking the source today, the source Cornell gives a different story than Note G on the table, which says "Official records for Minneapolis/Saint Paul were kept by the Saint Paul Signal Service in that city from January 1871 to December 1890, the Minneapolis Weather Bureau from January 1891 to April 8, 1938, and at KMSP since April 9, 1938." Where does the airport become KMSP?

Quoting Cornell ThreadEx:

Threaded Station Extremes Station: MN - Minneapolis-St Paul Report: Station thread Station thread

Station Thread for Minneapolis-St Paul Area, MN

Name Period in Thread

1 MINNEAPOLIS-ST PAUL INTL ARPT 07/2004 to 12/2022

2 MINNEAPOLIS-ST PAUL INTL ARPT (supplied by NWS) 11/2000 to 06/2004

3 MINNEAPOLIS-ST PAUL INTL ARPT 04/09/1938 to 10/31/2000

4 MINNEAPOLIS WB DWTN 05/1891 to 04/08/1938

5 ST PAUL SIGNAL SERVICE (supplied by MN SC)

-SusanLesch (talk) 22:32, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages, KMSP-TV is a Fox affiliate in Eden Prairie and Shoreview, Minnesota. KMPS (AM) is in California. I'll have to call it a typo and change the note to MSP, because we are unlikely to ever get an answer here. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:12, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions for rephrasing demographics section

I believe that the current wording of Minneapolis' demographic history is convoluted and difficult to understand. I have attempted to simplify it without eliminating any information, but I would appreciate your feedback before making any changes. Please let me know what you think.

Update: I've decided to add some suggestions on things I think should be added or cut. Additions are underlined, while cuts are struckout.

Svenskbygderna (talk) 04:02, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Wonderful! Please go ahead with your changes, Svenskbygderna. I have only about three minor changes to what you wrote and will add them after you make yours. We are lucky to have your attention. So you think the sub-section "2020 census and 2021 estimates" is good to go now? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

The main thing is we can't skip over the influence of immigrants from New England. Search for "New England" in Claiming the City: Politics, Faith, and the Power of Place in St. Paul by Mary Lethert Wingerd, a highly reliable third-party source. She says similar things elsewhere but this book concentrates that thought. In this article the idea is sourced to Stipanovich. Other things: I don't think we should omit US veterans, the Chinese, President Arthur (if we're including President Trump), and indigenous religion. Maybe omit Trump, too? E.g., "In the 1990s, immigrants from the Horn of Africa, particularly Somalia, began to arrive, though their immigration slowed after a 2017 executive order." -SusanLesch (talk) 19:48, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Susan, I want to give the 2020 census and 2021 estimates another look over before updating the page, but for the most part it looks good. I just want to verify that the statistics are sourced properly (either to the census or the ACS). Svenskbygderna (talk) 15:15, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Susan, thank you for sharing the relevence of the items I was considering removing. It sounds like there is good justification to keep them. However, I'd like to clean up a couple things. First, what are we trying to say about Chinese immigration follwing the Chinese Exclusion Act? The current phrasing makes it sound like immigration increased following its signing, but clearly the opposite is true. What about something like this (assuming I understand what you're trying to convay): Chinese immigration to Minneapolis started in the 1870s. However, it was significantly curtailed just a decade later with the enactment of the Chinese Exclusion Act. I think we can omit the President Arthur's name from the sentence.

Yeah, I had that chronology backwards. The federal ethnic ban was significant but I agree to drop it and Arthur. Instead maybe try some of this: Chinese began immigration in the 1870s. Minneapolis had no Chinatown, and Chinese businesses centered on the Gateway District and Glenwood Avenue. For more than a century beginning in 1880, Westminster Presbyterian Church gave language classes and support for Chinese Americans in Minneapolis, many of whom had fled discrimination in western states. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:08, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Svenskbygderna, thank you for your changes. It is great to have another perspective. I will be restoring much of what you cut, and removing the unsourced statements. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:12, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Please see what you think, Svenskbygderna. Your introduction of the non-religious group was striking and very helpful.

Other

I'd like a comment from SandyGeorgia on the religion section because she has mentioned the Demographics section flow overall. Where sources do not exist at the city level, we have worked in national, state, and metro area numbers. However note that specifics are strictly for the city. All are cited and follow Pew Research nicely. Without the country and metro level research it is impossible to make any general statements (like, the city is "majority Christian") that Svenskbygderna tried to add to make this section readable. Are we all right now? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Another question for Sandy who may be traveling at the moment. What is the preferred way to link within references? I like to use author-link but not links for every publication and organization. This method will leave some people and things out. Is it better to have some links or better to have none?

I think we are probably ready for the next step. You have been more than patient with this article. Thank you, SandyGeorgia. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:16, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

SusanLesch real life got crazy, and I'm prepping to travel tomorrow. Once I get to the beach, and get through some ceremonies there, I will have some down time to catch up here, but I'd like to do it when I have a free block of time, rather than the piecemeal catching up here and there I've been forced to over the last few weeks. If you can hang on for another week or two, we should be close to ready to present to FAR. The last time I checked, the main chunk missing was to satisfy Magnolia677 ... has that been done? My suggestion for linking within citations is to do it whenever the link exists (see J. K. Rowling), but you don't have to do that. What you do have to do is have a consistent style, whatever it is you choose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:02, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Take a couple weeks to enjoy life. In the meantime I will add any links that are missing in citations. Magnolia677, Sandy asked about you; do you have anything more before we move to FAR? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:58, 10 May 2023 (UTC) P.S. I am done only through ref #96. Lots of mistakes. Will pick up Thursday. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC) P.P.S. To be continued Friday. Up to ref #238 now. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC) P.P.P.S. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:58, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

1. Mason 1981, p. 531. sfn error: no target: CITEREFMason1981 (help)
2. Mason 1981, pp. 533–534. sfn error: no target: CITEREFMason1981 (help)
3. Mason 1981, p. 540. sfn error: no target: CITEREFMason1981 (help)

@SusanLesch: Let me think... Well, the article misses a couple of "firsts", such as the first bridge across the Mississippi, and the first mail-order catalog (from Sears in Minneapolis). The first European to see Niagara Falls was also the first to see Minneapolis, and Sound 80 made the first-ever digital recording (it now operates the Guinness Record "quietest place on earth"). And Brave New Workshop is the oldest sketch and comedy improve in the US.

Speaking of water, (Minne is Sioux for "water" and polis is Greek for "city")...Saint Anthony Falls is the only waterfall on the Mississippi River, and six percent of the city is covered in water, the most for any large US city (my original research).

The cuisine section has no photo (has there been discussion about photos in this section?) How about a picture of the Bundt cake, or the Honeycrisp apple, or the Milky Way chocolate bar? I mean, holy cow!! (an expression started by Halsey Hall in Minneapolis).

Most important, there's no mention of the interesting street names along Broadway here, and the plan to add Trump (I forgot the date of approval, do you know it?)

Seriously, it looks great. Thank you for your hard work! Magnolia677 (talk) 18:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677, thank you. I hope you will find sources and add any of the above if you think they should be included. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677, If you would step up to do the work, that would be helpful. Some of this can be done, others not likely.

• If you have a source, please add Brave New Workshop.
• I will add the "only" waterfall and the bridge.
• We already say six percent water.
• We had an RfC about a Cuisine photo. As a vegetarian who cares about climate change, promoting cheeseburgers to image will make me gag. As a master's in nutrition, I prefer no image in deference to Owamni, or, in deference to Sandy who thinks healthy food is POV, prefer a Milky Way if you have a source. Honeycrisp sounds good but the university's agriculture department is in Saint Paul. Nordic Ware (bundt cakes) started in Saint Louis Park, not Minneapolis.
• The Sound 80 claim would be difficult maybe impossible to defend.
• We used to mention Orfield Labs, who last I heard was hoping to regain the "quietest" claim (from Microsoft?). It got complicated, and I thought WP:UNDUE but it's fine if you want to add. In 2012, the anechoic chamber at Orfield Labs measured −13 decibels, and the company has applied to Guinness World Records with a −24.9 decibel measurement as of 2022.
• First mail-order catalog from Sears is probably impossible to defend.
• What are you talking about "interesting street names"?
• Niagra Falls, and Halsey Hall could be UNDUE, but go ahead if you have sources.

-SusanLesch (talk) 03:54, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The consensual choice in a community-wide RFC was for a combined 5-8 and Matt's image in the cuisine section; doing otherwise (on the pretense that Minneapolis food is best represented as "healthy") would be POV, and suddenly switching to undiscussed options like Bundt cake or Honeycrisp apples after a community-wide RFC won't work. On the other hand, every section does not have to have an image; since no one else has complained since the RFC closed about there being no image, perhaps that's an alternative. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:25, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I was joking...holy cow. And the unusual street names are every president from Washington to Bush. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:08, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Sandy. I got up this morning to hat my unneeded comments on that RfC, but was apparently too late on the west coast. I will abide by the RfC's outcome of course, and am happy with the alternative.

Magnolia677, I added the waterfall and bridge firsts. The other claims seem to be puffed up boosterism per Misplaced Pages: mail order, digital recording, anechoic chamber. Anyway thanks for your input. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Swatman, Rachael (October 2, 2015). "Microsoft lab sets new record for the world's quietest place". Guinness World Records Limited. Retrieved November 26, 2022.
2. Weaver, Caity (November 24, 2022). "Could I Survive the 'Quietest Place on Earth'?". The New York Times Magazine. Retrieved November 26, 2022.

Footnote help

Hi Collin. Maybe you can figure out Ref 45? Template help told me that chapter doesn't work in cite journal when a work parameter is used. I suspect that's maybe also true for url. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi SusanLesch, I think you're right; the template doesn't really allow you to use a chapter for a journal article, since the template already considers the article to be a chapter of the larger work (the particular journal volume/issue). I think the solution you've found (including the chapter as the location in the {{sfn}}) is the best we can do absent of actually knowing what the page numbers of the chapter are. I think my local library has this issue of that journal for library use only, so I can try and go in and figure out the exact pagination at some point but I'm not sure exactly when just yet. In any case, because the chapters are all by Anfinson, there's no particular need to break up the article by chapter anyhow (in the same way we wouldn't necessarily cite each chapter in a monograph, but rather cite the book as a whole). Hope this is useful! —⁠Collin 16:31, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Very useful, thank you! Anybody who wants to can download the file and find the quote in seconds with search. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:42, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

There are HarvRef errors all over the place; please install User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js to have a look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I misspoke (sorry, tired); not everywhere, just Mason and Atwater ... but installing the script will help see and sort them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I will look. Trappist the monk paid us a visit today and seems to have solved our ISBN problem; they added {{Format ISBN}} and a bot fixed them all within a hour. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I removed those; I still recommend installing the script to avoid having this recurring problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:02, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Trappist and AnomieBOT did the ISBNs. Got the script today, thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Sources that have been checked

For the archive, these sources have been cleared at WP:RSN for non-controversial use in this and in one case a related article. Also WikiProject Radio said Radio Locator is possibly all right and I couldn't get an alternative after Nielsen closed off the page we needed.

• Southwest Voices
• Racket
• Streets.mn
• Stacker
• Shanghai, QS, Times Higher Education, and US News & World Report college rankings (combination of WP:RSN and WikiProject Higher Education)
• Charles Fisk and ClimateStations.com got zero comments at WP:RSN

Your edits

User:AuH2ORepublican, thank you for your contributions. I reverted your changes per MOS:US and MOS:RACECAPS. This article has established style and you overrode that. Best wishes, SusanLesch (talk) 21:38, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Sourcing and due weight

There is a lot of content using self-citations, eg:

• The Open Book facility houses the Minnesota Center for Book Arts and The Loft Literary Center. Other Minneapolis publishers are 1517 Media, Button Poetry, and Lerner Publishing Group.

What is the criteria for deciding things like this are to be included, if there are not secondary mentions of their significance? Check throughout needed ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Open Book is famous. I'll add NYT as a source.

Much tougher for publishers and magazines, I used the Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association from the Internet Archive because the organization is defunct. They may have to be deleted because other than link aggregators there aren't other sources. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:30, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Prose

What is this trying to say (I can't decipher):

• As of 2023, sales (and local use tax for out-of-state purchases) charged within the city totals 8.03 percent, a combination of state, county, special district, and a city sales tax of 0.50 percent.

Is it ... ?

• The tax rate on purchases within the city is 8.03 percent as of 2023; this tax is a combination of state, county, and special district taxes along with a city sales tax of 0.50 percent and a local use tax for out-of-state purchases.

? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, much better, thanks. I got bogged down in the math.-SusanLesch (talk) 13:32, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Pre-FAR look

@Buidhe, Hog Farm, Z1720, and Extraordinary Writ: would you all have a glance in here when you have a moment? This 2007 FA was built at a time when there was a very active Minnesota WikiProject, and just about everything in the state was featured. Most of those editors have moved on, most of the bronze stars have been lost, and SusanLesch has tried to save bronze stars without the resources MN articles once had.

This article's pre-FAR work has been going on now for two years, back to Archive 8. The article is greatly improved, but it's been slow going with what I'd call five-for-one (five steps forward then one step backward, with list after list of things to address, which SusanLesch has steadily and cheerfully plugged away at). I've grown too close to the text to see the flaws, and too weary of reading this article. The main question at this stage is should work continue here on talk, or is this getting close enough where a FAR would be the next logical step to bring in more eyes, hopefully towards a seal of approval? A thorough going-over top-to-bottom is needed now, and whether to do more of that on talk or via FAR is the question. Because the article has seen so much re-working, a FAR seal-of-approval would be better than a WP:URFA/2020 "Satisfactory" at this stage, IMO. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll try to look later this week. I just broke my glasses so my screen time will be limited to avoid migraines until that can be fixed though. Hog Farm _Talk 01:02, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

HF

• " leaders of St. Anthony lost their bid to move the capital from Saint Paul" - I think it's worthwhile to be a little more explicit that this was the name of the community on the east side of St. Anthony Falls Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• Link Doc Ames? Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• The structural organization of the social tensions section seems a bit off to me. We go from unmarried mothers to structural racism to a gangster to antisemitism to a hospital to economic troubles to racism again to destruction of historical architecture to George Floyd. Done. Straightened out I hope. Thank you for the comment. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:16, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Hog Farm, the history section skipped over the computer industry and the country's center for underwear. Working to fix that now. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:23, 20 May 2023 (UTC) Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for drawing attention to this section. Reworked and flows better now. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

• Would it make more sense to group the racial divide in income material with the general income stuff? Done. Good idea, thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:26, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• " Christ Church Lutheran in the Longfellow neighborhood was the final work in the career of Eliel Saarinen, and has an education building designed by his son Eero" - sourcing needs revamped here; the linked page does not give these details about the church building Done I will add a quote from Millett. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "As of 2020, the Minneapolis–Saint Paul area was the second-largest economic center in the American Midwest behind Chicago" - how is this regional comparison being produced? I'm not seeing anything that defines a Midwest region at the source, and it's not like there's a concrete definition of Midwest. For instance, is Missouri in the Midwest? Or is it the South? (as a resident of the state, I'd argue that the line runs through the middle of it) Good grief. Must rewrite that. (As the ref says, I compared "Cook, Minneapolis, and Wayne metros" GDP.) CityLab asked Where is the Midwest? And I learned that Missouri is the only US state with two Federal Reserve Banks. You may be right, a line does run through your state. Thank you for the catch. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC) Done. This long-term claim was, embarrassingly, never sourced. Now removed. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
• "Other companies with offices or headquarters in Minneapolis include Accenture," - none of the following sources mention Accenture? Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "the Walker Art Center began as a fabulous private art collection in the home of lumberman T. B. Walker " - is it really encyclopedic tone to describe a collection as "fabulous" Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "for whom the name "museum" was too limited" - this reads like something from a PR brochure. Recommend removing this clause Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "As of 2022, Alight helped 4 million people" - I don't think we should necessarily be citing a charity's reach to its own materials Done Para sourced to Fast Company. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "The Minneapolis Foundation administers over 1,000 charitable funds" - what indicates that this is notable? There's no bluelink, and it's sourced to a Charity Navigator page, which is basically a directory Done. Removed. If someone creates the article of course this can come back. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm fairly concerned at the degree of primary sourcing to an organization's own materials that is going on in the arts and culture section. How do we know that something is actually significant unless we source it to third-party RS? I've noticed hints of boosterism in Minnesota articles before, so I think that's something to be careful with. Hog Farm _Talk 04:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Hog Farm. I'll work on all of these but it will take some time. Sorry for the word "fabulous". How would you describe this gallery? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:39, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

This is the problem I mention above at #Sourcing and due weight (deleting the entire arts section, as an example of Minnesota boosterism, should be considered). There's a tendency to mention items without indicating significance for encyclopedic content or without sourcing to independent secondary coverage. If Minneapolis is a notable literary arts center, we should have a secondary source saying that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:13, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Hog Farm and Sandy, ideas welcome. I looked at the other US city FAs (Boston, Cleveland, DC, Ann Arbor). Then I ran through the first couple pages of Minneapolis travel guides at Google Books. Honestly they seem as or more boostery than this article does. I ordered Insiders' Guide® to Twin Cities (2010) by a former Twin Cities Daily Planet editor but really these don't look great:

• A History Lover's Guide to Minneapolis
• Walking Twin Cities
• Secret Twin Cities

I have no idea about Greater Than a Tourist and Moon. Frommer's city guide is outdated (1991) and Fodor's mentions the same museums we do in its short three paras. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:27, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Sandy, Minneapolis used to rank fourth, third or first in a literate city study (that cities loved to cite) that stopped in 2018. I removed it then because fourth place wasn't outstanding enough. Since then we have come to frown on most rankings per WP:USCITIES. That study looked at "number of bookstores, educational attainment, Internet resources, library resources, periodical publishing resources, and newspaper circulation." I think you would get in trouble saying that Minneapolis is not a notable literary arts center. This study had Minneapolis at number 3 or better for a decade (of 80-some US cities >250,000 people). Today I replaced a source with a 2008 NYT article that should suffice. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:53, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I think we're much better off using studies like the literacy one than just listing a bunch of self-sourced examples to draw conclusions about such things. It reminds me a bit of when a distant relevant came to visit SW MO and wanted to know what all the towns were "known for": Bolivar has the college, Collins has a decent restaurant, Humansville is known for "nothing good", Osceola has a cheese place and got burnt in the war, etc. Hog Farm _Talk 00:18, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Hog Farm. I'm putting cuts at Talk:Minneapolis/to do that I don't think can be sourced except to themselves. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:47, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Reporting in. The past week was spent repairing refs again. We had better get this right because, even after fifteen years, Minneapolis is given as an example at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Cities/US_Guideline#References_/_Notes. This has been a mind-numbing exercise. I have redone every reference in some cases three times. Having an example to follow helped greatly. We started with Britannica. Sandy gave me J. K. Rowling which was kept a year ago, but even so ambiguities crept in. (One pass was to unbundle everything I had carefully bundled.)

We are concerned about self-sourcing. I'm not sure that everyone else is. Looking at featured cities: DC, Boston use self-sourced schools. For schools, Cleveland (I'd say the Cleveland editors did the best job or else they had the best sources available) and Ann Arbor mixed but mostly secondary. Boston has mainly self-sourced hospitals. After going over them twice already, do I need to re-cite the whole second paragraph of colleges? What about magazines? Recent discussion is here. I hope to move to the content issues that Hog Farm found and gave us above. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Sandy and SusanLesch - please ping me when y'all are ready for me to take a look again. Hog Farm _Talk 00:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: By chance I just had (but also just returned) the travel guide Moon Minneapolis-St. Paul (3rd ed.) which included a nice list of local publications/radio stations. The 2nd edition is available to peruse for free on Archive.org with a free account. —⁠Collin 22:08, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Collin. Moon looks like a conscientious publication (if outdated); City Pages and Downtown Journal are closed. We need somebody to characterize the new generation of publications (Racket, Southwest Connector, Southwest Voices, Streets.mn, Dispatch). What the Web didn't kill off, the pandemic hit. Somehow, these people bravely stepped up. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Moon had some! La Prensa de Minnesota and Vida y Sabor, Metro Lutheran, maybe the Minnesota Christian Chronicle, and American Jewish World are still alive and kicking. Thank you again, Collin. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Racial covenants and redlining

I have added an inline tag disputing the following sentence: "Racial covenants and redlining occurred simultaneously, and the effects remain today in housing, income, health care, education, employment, entertainment, and over-policing."

Racial covenants were outlawed in 1953. It is absurd to suggest that "the effects remain today"...of a racist practice outlawed 70 years prior.

Two sources have been cited:

• The first source is published by Department of Community Planning and Economic Development, and it asserts that differences in measures of success are mainly attributed to levels of education, and that "These disparities are rooted in overt and institutionalized racism that has shaped the opportunities available to multiple generations of Minneapolis residents." Again, the racist policies were outlawed 70 years ago, so the authors are surely speaking about the effects prior to 1953.
• The second source quotes someone named Keith Mayes, a UMN associate professor of African American and African Studies. Regarding racist housing, Mayes asserts that "we still see its effects today", and that "housing disparities created the educational disparities that we still live with today".

Articles become unbalanced when opinions--opinions-- are presented as objective facts. The root causes of poverty cannot simply be attributed to something outlawed 70 years prior. --Magnolia677 (talk) 18:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe both sources are clear that the effects persist, in spite of when the covenants were outlawed. The first is not an opinion piece. Perhaps one way to sort this is to attribute the second source as opinion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Using the cherrypicked opinion of a non-notable associate professor to reach the conclusion that "the effects" of racial covenants and redlining--outlawed eight years after WWII--continue to contribute to the social pathology in Minneapolis today is sloppy. Bold conclusions about the causes of racism requires empirical and measurable research, not opinion. --Magnolia677 (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The principal source is the City of Minneapolis. Also regarding your edit summary, "very old documents, with sometimes archaic wording." True also of the US Constitution. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The City of Minneapolis is not an opinion piece. The secondary opinion (which is in agreement, and per Buidhe)) could be attributed if also used. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 22 May 2023 (UTC) Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:16, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

This is an uninformed comment. Of course economic effects can persist after a long period of time, as research has shown in the case of redlining. (t · c) buidhe 18:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Spare me your insults. Of the two sources cited to support what has been presented as "fact, this source states that "This practice prevented access to mortgages in areas with Jews, African-Americans and other minorities". However, the second source makes no mention of Jewish people at all. In fact, when discussing the negative impacts of relining, the only groups still "affected" some 70 years later are racial minorities, with no mention of Jews. So...two cohorts of people were victimized by a racist policy that ended during Eisenhower's presidency, yet 70 years later, the effects of the racist policies continue to impact "housing, employment, income, and health care" of one cohort, but not the other? Magnolia677 (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Long term effects of red lining on affected neighborhoods have been shown in a variety of research. Red lining obviously is a policy that is geographically based. The article is about the city so I expect the research we are interested in is showing effects on neighborhoods, not ethnic groups. I'm not sure why you think that this is controversial. If there is any evidence that the effects of redlining have disappeared I have not heard of it. (t · c) buidhe 22:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Just Deeds

@Magnolia677: in Minnesota, attorneys in 23 cities donate their time to remove covenants from real estate deeds. In their story about Mapping Prejudice, Bloomberg CityLab compares Minneapolis with areas nationwide: "What is exceptional about Minneapolis is its efforts to reckon with its history of discrimination." The law (PDF) allowing covenant removal passed the Minnesota legislature with one dissent. It apparently sounds "trivial" to you, and you are correct it is a symbolic gesture—one that is taken seriously in Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:58, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Citations

SandyGeorgia, acting on your advice, I think the citations are internally consistent. Here are my notes:

• locations were removed (because we only had a few)
• languages were removed (same reasoning)
• wikilink all authors with articles
• wikilink all journals and publishers with articles
• no idea if Hispanic American Center for Economic Research is the same HACER as Hispanic Advocacy and Community Empowerment through Research (I decided not)

If they look okay, we're ready for wider review. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:57, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia whenever you have time can you please take another look before we ping Hog Farm? Note on scheduling: I will be away from my books for the month of July, but available for editing. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I can see you are busy. So I'm taking the opportunity to read American City: A Rank-and-file History to learn enough to expand coverage of the 1934 teamsters' strike by a sentence or two. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC) Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

SusanLesch if you are going to be away from your books for the month of July, we should not contemplate launching the FAR until after that. The article has been considerably improved and is probably out of the territory where it would lose FA status, so there is no need to rush to FAR. When we do go to FAR, we wouldn't want to be in a position of not being able to respond to questions about sources, and FAR takes a month at minimum. Yes, my editing time has become difficult because of IRL issues, and I hope those will settle soon. There's a light at the end of the tunnel that may not be a trainwreck. In the interim, I am hoping that Magnolia677 will do their complete read-through and identify anything else they are concerned about, so we can be sure we've gotten everything we can to avoid a convoluted FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:47, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, thank you for looking here. I will be home August 6th and look forward to Misplaced Pages keeping a recent Geographical location as featured. We really need one. Magnolia677, your expertise will help us continue to be a model for WP:USCITIES. Can you please take a look? Thank you.

P.S. Hog Farm, if you are able to take a look, we have some time to make more improvements. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2023 (UTC)′

Coming week will be very busy for me. I ought to be able to get to this before August 6, but I don't know when I'll have the time to take a look. Hog Farm _Talk 02:49, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Structural racism

@Magnolia677: You're correct the cited page from the city doesn't mention redlining and covenants but the 2040 plan most certainly does. The city prepared a PDF on that subject. I apologize, my citation was developed to support the statement that Minneapolis "has racial disparities in every aspect of society." I accept your correction to "several," however now my citation makes no sense. I put this paragraph in my sandbox and am working to improve it.

The past three years have seen a number of editors take exception with any indication that the city has problems with structural racism. I'll be happy when we can agree on an acceptable explanation. Your edits helped greatly, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:59, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: My concern is that text must absolutely be supported by sources cited, and that junk sources not be cherrypicked to support a narrative. I recently read several articles about the history of racism in Minneapolis, and even the sources that aren't junk agree this was--was--the most racist city in the US. However, citing some non-notable associate professor just because he makes the unfathomable link between 1930s housing policies and current policing issues is pretty unencyclopedic. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: you wrote this was the most racist city in the US. And what is your source? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Covenants and "health equity"

The article makes the extraordinary claim that "The effects of racial covenants remain today in...health equity."

The source cited to support this never once uses the term "health equity". Moreover, the source states that:

Covenants fueled contemporary health inequities. For example, covenants steered investments in green amenities like trees, which determine the air temperature of neighborhoods today. In Minneapolis, areas that had covenants are on average 10 degrees cooler than neighborhoods that were redlined. Excess heat is responsible for at least 6,000 deaths each year in the United States and complicates the management of conditions like hypertension and heart disease.

In other words...because racist housing policies enacted over 70 years ago lead richer parts of the city to have more trees, and because trees lower the air temperature, and because lots and lots of people in the US die each year from excessive heat...therefore, the effects of the covenants remain.

The reliability of this entire source is tainted by such a spurious, unencyclopedic, and unscientific conclusion. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

My apologies for being dense, but I seem to be missing a step here. Your post starts out saying that the source never mentions health equity, but then you go on to include a quote from it that uses the word "health inequity" ... which is saying the same thing. ??? Nor am I seeing why you consider this spurious. Or what they passage is tagged. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The source says that because racist housing policies enacted over 70 years ago enabled richer parts of the city to have more trees, and because trees lower the air temperature, and because lots of people in the US die each year from excessive heat (the source links to a science article about excessive heat, which mentions nothing of trees or Minneapolis), then therefore, the effects of the covenants remain. Fewer trees for 70 years, more heat, heat kills...inequity caused by covenants! This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. It's so stupid, in fact, that it makes the entire source look stupid, just for saying something so stupid. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

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