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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: This page is biased towards/against Trump because it mentions/doesn't mention x. Why won't you fix it? A1: Having a neutral point of view does not mean giving equal weight to all viewpoints. Rather, it refers to Misplaced Pages's effort to discuss topics and viewpoints in a roughly equal proportion to the degree that they are discussed in reliable sources, which in political articles is mostly mainstream media, although academic works are also sometimes used. For further information, please read Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. Q2: A recent request for comment had X votes for support and Y votes for oppose. Why was it closed as no consensus when one position had more support than the other? A2: Misplaced Pages is built on consensus, which means that editors and contributors here debate the merits of adding, subtracting, or rearranging the information. Consensus is not a vote, rather it is a discussion among community members over how best to interpret and apply information within the bounds of our policy and guideline infrastructure. Often, but not always, the community finds itself unable to obtain consensus for changes or inclusions to the article. In other cases, the community may decide that consensus exists to add or modify material based on the strength of the arguments made by members citing relevant policy and guideline related material here. This can create confusion for new comers or those unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's consensus building processes, especial since consensus can change. While all are welcome to participate in consensus building, keep in mind that the best positions for or against including material are based on policy and guideline pages, so it may be in your best interest to read up on Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines before diving into the debates.

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Donald Trump was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Article milestones Date Process Result June 2, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed February 12, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed September 17, 2016 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2017 Good article nominee Not listed December 2, 2018 Good article nominee Not listed July 15, 2019 Good article nominee Not listed August 31, 2019 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 29, 2020 Peer review Reviewed Current status: Former good article nominee This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. Biography: Arts and Entertainment / Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Top-importance). Business Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Business, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of business articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BusinessWikipedia:WikiProject BusinessTemplate:WikiProject BusinessWikiProject Business Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. 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If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics: American / Political parties High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by Political parties task force (assessed as High-importance). United States: Television / Presidential elections / Presidents / Government Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American television task force (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. presidential elections (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject United States Presidents (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. Government (assessed as High-importance). Template:WP1.0 Television Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Television, a collaborative effort to develop and improve Misplaced Pages articles about television programs. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can join the discussion. To improve this article, please refer to the style guidelines for the type of work.TelevisionWikipedia:WikiProject TelevisionTemplate:WikiProject Televisiontelevision Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:Vital article This article has been viewed enough times to make it onto the all-time Top 100 list. It has had 233 million views since December 2007. This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021. This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 126 times. The weeks in which this happened: June 14 to 20, 2015 June 28 to July 4, 2015 July 19 to 25, 2015 July 26 to August 1, 2015 August 2 to 8, 2015 August 9 to 15, 2015 August 16 to 22, 2015 August 23 to 29, 2015 August 30 to September 5, 2015 September 6 to 12, 2015 September 13 to 19, 2015 September 20 to 26, 2015 September 27 to October 3, 2015 December 6 to 12, 2015 December 13 to 19, 2015 January 3 to 9, 2016 January 10 to 16, 2016 January 17 to 23, 2016 January 24 to 30, 2016 January 31 to February 6, 2016 February 7 to 13, 2016 February 14 to 20, 2016 February 21 to 27, 2016 February 28 to March 5, 2016 March 6 to 12, 2016 March 13 to 19, 2016 March 20 to 26, 2016 March 27 to April 2, 2016 April 3 to 9, 2016 April 10 to 16, 2016 April 17 to 23, 2016 April 24 to 30, 2016 May 1 to 7, 2016 May 8 to 14, 2016 May 15 to 21, 2016 May 22 to 28, 2016 May 29 to June 4, 2016 June 5 to 11, 2016 June 12 to 18, 2016 July 3 to 9, 2016 July 10 to 16, 2016 July 17 to 23, 2016 July 24 to 30, 2016 July 31 to August 6, 2016 August 21 to 27, 2016 August 28 to September 3, 2016 September 4 to 10, 2016 September 11 to 17, 2016 September 18 to 24, 2016 September 25 to October 1, 2016 October 2 to 8, 2016 October 9 to 15, 2016 October 16 to 22, 2016 October 23 to 29, 2016 October 30 to November 5, 2016 November 6 to 12, 2016 November 13 to 19, 2016 November 20 to 26, 2016 November 27 to December 3, 2016 December 4 to 10, 2016 December 11 to 17, 2016 December 18 to 24, 2016 January 1 to 7, 2017 January 8 to 14, 2017 January 15 to 21, 2017 January 22 to 28, 2017 January 29 to February 4, 2017 February 5 to 11, 2017 February 12 to 18, 2017 February 19 to 25, 2017 February 26 to March 4, 2017 March 5 to 11, 2017 March 12 to 18, 2017 March 19 to 25, 2017 March 26 to April 1, 2017 April 2 to 8, 2017 April 23 to 29, 2017 May 14 to 20, 2017 May 21 to 27, 2017 May 28 to June 3, 2017 June 11 to 17, 2017 June 25 to July 1, 2017 October 8 to 14, 2017 October 22 to 28, 2017 November 26 to December 2, 2017 January 14 to 20, 2018 June 10 to 16, 2018 September 30 to October 6, 2018 October 28 to November 3, 2018 November 4 to 10, 2018 November 11 to 17, 2018 November 18 to 24, 2018 November 25 to December 1, 2018 December 9 to 15, 2018 September 22 to 28, 2019 December 15 to 21, 2019 January 5 to 11, 2020 February 23 to 29, 2020 March 1 to 7, 2020 April 12 to 18, 2020 May 31 to June 6, 2020 June 7 to 13, 2020 June 14 to 20, 2020 June 21 to 27, 2020 June 28 to July 4, 2020 August 9 to 15, 2020 August 16 to 22, 2020 August 23 to 29, 2020 September 27 to October 3, 2020 October 4 to 10, 2020 October 11 to 17, 2020 October 18 to 24, 2020 October 25 to 31, 2020 November 1 to 7, 2020 November 8 to 14, 2020 November 15 to 21, 2020 November 22 to 28, 2020 November 29 to December 5, 2020 December 6 to 12, 2020 December 13 to 19, 2020 January 3 to 9, 2021 January 10 to 16, 2021 January 17 to 23, 2021 January 24 to 30, 2021 January 31 to February 6, 2021 July 10 to 16, 2022 Section sizes Section size for Donald Trump (88 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 9,362 9,362 Early life and education 3,497 3,497 Personal life 19 5,044 Family 1,340 1,340 Health 3,685 3,685 Business career 149 35,772 Real estate 4,597 15,996 Manhattan and Chicago developments 6,168 6,168 Atlantic City casinos 3,610 3,610 Clubs 1,621 1,621 Licensing the Trump name 1,364 1,364 Side ventures 7,287 7,287 Foundation 5,025 5,025 Legal affairs and bankruptcies 2,315 2,315 Wealth 3,636 3,636 Media career 3,452 5,107 The Apprentice and the Celebrity Apprentice 1,655 1,655 Early political aspirations 4,690 4,690 2016 presidential election 18,430 18,430 First presidency (2017–2021) 139 177,231 Early actions 3,225 3,225 Conflicts of interest 3,367 3,367 Domestic policy 21,318 21,318 Race relations 6,232 6,232 Pardons and commutations 2,574 2,574 Immigration 3,086 20,394 Travel ban 4,347 4,347 Family separation at the border 6,269 6,269 Mexico–United States border wall and government shutdown 6,692 6,692 Foreign policy 2,859 35,965 Trade 2,517 2,517 Russia 4,221 4,221 East Asia 21 10,653 China, Hong Kong, Taiwan 4,914 4,914 North Korea 5,718 5,718 Middle East 23 15,715 Afghanistan 3,042 3,042 Israel 2,637 2,637 Saudi Arabia 2,229 2,229 Syria 3,797 3,797 Iran 3,987 3,987 Personnel 8,705 8,705 Judiciary 4,174 4,174 COVID-19 pandemic 291 31,456 Initial response 7,681 7,681 White House Coronavirus Task Force 5,253 5,253 World Health Organization 2,673 2,673 Pressure to abandon pandemic mitigation measures 7,799 7,799 Political pressure on health agencies 2,690 2,690 Outbreak at the White House 2,666 2,666 Effects on the 2020 presidential campaign 2,403 2,403 Investigations 1,079 26,084 Financial 3,111 3,111 Russian election interference 6,491 6,491 FBI Crossfire Hurricane and 2017 counterintelligence investigations 2,573 2,573 Mueller investigation 12,830 12,830 First impeachment 10,200 10,200 Second impeachment 3,398 3,398 2020 presidential election 34 24,158 Loss to Biden 6,902 15,669 Rejection of results 8,767 8,767 January 6 Capitol attack 8,455 8,455 First post-presidency (2021–2025) 5,018 34,695 Business activities 2,382 2,382 Investigations, criminal indictments and convictions, civil lawsuits 630 27,295 FBI investigations 5,703 5,703 Criminal referral by the House January 6 Committee 693 693 State criminal indictments 2,969 2,969 Federal criminal indictments 5,378 5,378 Criminal conviction in the 2016 campaign fraud case 6,135 6,135 Civil judgments 5,787 5,787 2024 presidential election 15,072 15,072 Political practice and rhetoric 8,048 47,246 Racial and gender views 9,377 9,377 Link to hate crimes 4,730 4,730 Conspiracy theories 3,318 3,318 Truthfulness 10,483 10,483 Social media 5,810 5,810 Relationship with the press 5,480 5,480 Assessments 18 6,969 Public image 4,525 4,525 Scholarly 2,426 2,426 Notes 136 136 References 30 30 Works cited 18 11,906 Books 3,256 3,256 Journals 8,632 8,632 External links 5,431 5,431 Total 404,776 404,776 Health of Donald Trump was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 13 June 2019 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Donald Trump. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Cuozzo, Steve (November 16, 2013). "Don't Trust Anything on Misplaced Pages". New York Post. Popper, Ben (July 22, 2015). "Someone just deleted Donald Trump's entire Misplaced Pages page". The Verge. Merrill, Jeremy (February 1, 2016). "On Misplaced Pages, Donald Trump Reigns and Facts Are Open to Debate". New York Times. Germ, Erik (May 28, 2016). "5 Secretly Bizarre Sections Of Websites You Use Every Day". Cracked.com. Guo, Jeff (October 25, 2016). "Misplaced Pages is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws". The Washington Post. Alcantara, Chris (October 27, 2016). "The most challenging job of the 2016 race: Editing the candidates' Misplaced Pages pages". The Washington Post. Staff Writer (December 21, 2016). "Most-edited Misplaced Pages pages of 2016 revealed". BBC News. Gartenberg, Chaim (January 20, 2017). "Misplaced Pages editors can't decide if Trump is the president yet". The Verge. Wyrich, Andrew (June 5, 2017). "Someone is trying to get Trump's official portrait deleted from Misplaced Pages". The Daily Dot. Warren, Tom (22 November 2018). "Siri thinks Donald Trump is a penis". The Verge. Blumenthal, Eli (22 November 2018). "Misplaced Pages vandalizing causes Siri to show a lewd image when asked about Donald Trump". USA Today. Griffin, Andrew (23 November 2018). "Asking Siri for information about Donald Trump shows explicit image after Misplaced Pages edit". The Independent. Gander, Kashmira (23 November 2018). "Someone hacked Donald Trump's Misplaced Pages page, replaced photo with image of penis". Newsweek. Martin, Alan (26 November 2018). "The Trump penis Misplaced Pages war has kicked off again". The Inquirer. Brandom, Russell (December 3, 2018). "Misplaced Pages engages the 'nuclear option' after Trump penis hack". The Verge. Mak, Aaron (May 28, 2019). "Donald Trump's Misplaced Pages Entry Is a War Zone". Slate. Alex Pasternack (7 March 2020). "How Misplaced Pages's volunteers became the web's best weapon against misinformation". Fast Company. Retrieved 9 March 2020. Brian Flood (21 May 2020). "Misplaced Pages co-founder Larry Sanger says online encyclopedia scrapped neutrality, favors lefty politics". Fox News. Retrieved 22 May 2020. Dan Evon (11 November 2020). "Does Loser.com Redirect to Trump's Misplaced Pages Page?". Snopes. Retrieved 19 November 2020.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

• v
• e

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
] item
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.

01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 7 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Misplaced Pages's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021) Amended after re-election: After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. (November 2024)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, optionally using its shortcut, WP:TRUMPRCB.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

Preventing Animal Cruelty And Torture Act

This bill should be mentioned as it was heavily supported by the Trump Admin and made intentional acts of animal cruelty a federal crime.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/25/us/politics/trump-animal-cruelty-bill.html 2600:1002:B157:B56:4AD:FE6D:1629:32F7 (talk) 19:30, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure how biographically significant this is to put it in this article. It might better belong in Presidency of Donald Trump. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 19:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you. Can we add it? 2600:1002:B157:B56:4AD:FE6D:1629:32F7 (talk) 20:35, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@OuroborosCobra there are plenty of other pieces of legislation mentioned in this article, i don't see how this particular act is any less "biographically significant" 2604:3D09:6A7F:82C0:3C2F:CFAE:2217:63CB (talk) 18:58, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

This is an argument for reducing what we have to only mile stone acts, those of great significance. Slatersteven (talk) 19:05, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I just think it’s a cool fact about the presidency also a lot of people agree it has value and should be added. Especially animal activists, not only that but he signed it into law and this is supposed to be a summary of his presidency so it does at least belong in the presidency section. 2601:14E:80:46D0:1D1F:BF57:3C27:533C (talk) 02:08, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@2600:1002:B157:B56:4AD:FE6D:1629:32F7

It certainly is relevant to the article on the Trump presidency, but it has very little to do with Donald Trump himself, since he has never owned any pets, either growing up or in adulthood, and reputedly hates personal pets, in particular dogs and cats. Since it's legislation signed into law, anything on this topic should be moved to the Trump presidency and removed from his personal article since it has very little to do with him personally. The inclusion of this topic here in this article makes a mockery of Misplaced Pages and what it is supposed to be. Stevenmitchell (talk) 19:29, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Whether someone “thinks” this is “cool” is entirely irrelevant as a criterion for inclusion. This is already a very long article, which makes it difficult enough to find important information. Padding the article further with trivial matters like this will only make things worse. TheScotch (talk) 13:24, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Rapist?

Should we add a comment that states that he is now officially recognized as a rapist, per the comments today from Judge Lewis Kaplan, who wrote that the trial evidence demonstrated Trump "raped" Carroll in the plain sense of the word? 76.102.148.6 (talk) 04:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

No. Not in Wikivoice, and any addition along those lines would need to be nuanced and explain the context. ~ ONUnicornproblem solving 04:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

See WP:LABEL. Trump has not even been charged, much less found guilty, in a criminal court for raping Carroll or anyone else. Furthermore, in the Carroll civil case, the jury found Trump not liable for raping Carroll. So, no, Trump absolutely should not be called a rapist in this article or anywhere else on Misplaced Pages. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 05:10, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear. Yes. We'd do this if it were almost anyone else. Nfitz (talk) 04:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, right. There is a long-running dispute in categoriies about criminals, whether the inclusion should be based on historical data or criminal convictions alone. People recently suggested removing gangsters from the categories, because they had not been convicted in court cases. Dimadick (talk) 08:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

We wouldn't do it for anyone else because to begin with policy says we cannot state for a fact that he committed a rape. O. J. Simpson for example, who was acquitted but found civilly liable for killing his wife is not said to be officially recognized as a murderer. TFD (talk) 09:43, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

By that logic, we wouldn't call someone a murderer, who murdered someone but died (for example by suicide or shooting) before trial. Lee Harvey Oswald for example. One big difference with Trump and Simpson though. Simpson was charged with murder and acquitted; Trump was not charged with rape (the statue of limitations had passed), and therefore not acquitted. So there's no conflicting court rulings on the matter. Nfitz (talk) 06:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

There's a difference between Oswald and Trump: Oswald is dead, but our article on Trump has to comply with defamation law and with Misplaced Pages's policy on articles about living persons. Richard75 (talk) 17:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

This is true. On the basis of the presumption of innocence, Donald Trump has not been proven guilty of rape therefore by default he is innocent. We will probably never know truly what happened that day, but legally he is not a rapist. This is further backed up by article 11 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights stating, "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence." He was prosecuted in trial and not found guilty. Considering he is an ex-president, and potential candidate for 2024, he is therefore a high-profile figure, and this could be classed as defamation on the basis of falsehood. It would therefore be inappropriate to label him as a rapist. Joecompan (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

That is not true on a number of fronts. He was legally found to be a rapist by a federal judge for purposes of defamation. The judge said as much. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights has nothing to do with law in America. 75.4.181.131 (talk) 12:07, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Source for the charge? He was found guilty sexual misconduct (not defending this) but not rape (somehow?). Despite all the evidence he was still not found guilty so therefore he cannot be labelled one. Joecompan (talk) 22:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I haven’t found anything in the article about the E. Jean Carroll trial at all. If it’s there, it seems to be hidden. Surely the article should state that the trial took place and that Trump was found guilty of sexual abuse. I can’t see how that could possibly be controversial. TheScotch (talk) 13:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

This is the reason. (Preceded by this.) I suppose we could try again but, all things considered (especially current and upcoming felony charges), I'd recommend holding off until the appeal court's decision. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:40, 2 August 2023 (UTC). Preceded by this. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:05, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

That's silly and pathetic. The trial has been over for some time, and it was covered extensively by all mainstream news sources. Just report in this article that it took place and what the outcome was. if you wait for an appeal, you'll wait forever because Trump will never stop appealing. Complaining you don't know where in the article it should go is absolutely no excuse. It can go perfectly well in several places. It doesn't matter much where, but it absolutely HAS to be here somewhere. TheScotch (talk) 04:42, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I've requested closure of the archived discussion at Misplaced Pages:Closure_requests#Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_157#Multi-part_proposal_for_content_on_E._Jean_Carroll_v._Trump. starship.paint (exalt) 14:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Wording for low ranking by historians

I think the "one of the worst presidents by historians" part should be changed to "he is ranked poorly by historians, normally near the bottom ". It sounds less biased in my opinion TRJ2008 (talk) 00:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@TRJ2008: Please don't use the edit request facility to start a discussion. Its purpose is for things that are unlikely to require discussion. Instead, use the "New section" link at the top of this page. I am converting this to a discussion by changing the heading and removing the edit request template. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The current wording consistent with other US presidential articles. Warren G. Harding: "In historical rankings of the U.S. presidents during the decades after his term in office, Harding was often rated among the worst." James Buchanan: "Historians and scholars rank Buchanan as one of the worst presidents in American history." Franklin Pierce: "As a result of his support of the South, as well as failing to hold the Union together in time of strife, historians and scholars generally rank Pierce as one of the worst as well as least memorable U.S. presidents." Cessaune 05:45, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's NPOV is dead buddy 43.241.144.234 (talk) 11:46, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Why, do any historians say he is not? Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

AryKun (talk) 11:55, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

i rather like to have this paragraph more precise: he is ranked as THE worst or second worst president, depending on the source / study / survey.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/trump-worst-president-history/617730/

https://www.usnews.com/news/special-reports/the-worst-presidents/articles/ranking-americas-worst-presidents

'one of the worst' is actually to kind. 84.115.227.133 (talk) 19:04, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

true Andre🚐 19:19, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

First paragraph should mention something about the investigations

The current first paragraph mentions his activities as a media personality and his business activities. In the last few years Trump has become better known for being at the centre of numerous investigations and criminal cases than his former career as a media personality nearly a decade ago. When the media has discussed Trump since he left the presidency, it has very often been related to the investigations of him. It would be reasonable to mention something about the criminal investigations that now engulf him. For example something like this: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Since leaving the presidency he has been the subject of several criminal investigations. --Tataral (talk) 11:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

lets leave it until they go somewhere. Slatersteven (talk) 11:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

MOS:OPEN, WP:SUSPECT. If and when he is convicted of any of the charges we can discuss this, but for now we should keep them in chronological order in the last paragraph. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:36, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Quick question

Hey, I have a question: was the conensus list a novel idea first implemented on this page or was it adapted from another page? Thanks in advance. Cessaune 02:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

There might not be a quick answer.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears to have been born in this edit, in Dec 2016, as part of the "top material" using the {{Consensus}} template, which is used in many other article talk pages. It then underwent a number of evolutionary changes that were unique to this page. At some point it became a section on the page, which (1) increased its visibility by adding it to the table of contents and (2) provided a target for section links on this page and in article edit summaries. Later, the section became a separate, transcluded page to allow for edit protection. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:47, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Reversing order of last two sentences in 2nd paragraph of lead

@FMSky: why?. You didn't provide an edit summary. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:54, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

yes i did https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1168761241 , which you reverted without giving a reason --FMSky (talk) 10:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

My apology, I didn't notice that edit among the other edits to the lead. However, the sentence about suing and getting sued also applies to the "Apprentice". Trump wasn't just playing a part on the show, he was also involved in the business end (producer, promoting products as part of the show, etc.) and got sued at least a couple of times (Summer Zervos and this. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah ok, makes sense then --FMSky (talk) 11:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Names of presiding judges in the criminal cases

I was about to delete the sentence Judge Tanya S. Chutkan was assigned to the case with cite when I noticed that I had accidentally removed it in an earlier edit. The reason is the same as the mention of Judge Cannon that I removed just now, i.e., there will be at least six criminal cases with six judges, and at the moment their names don't seem relevant details for Trump’s top bio. We can add them if that changes. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Protective order for evidence

@Tataral: This "standard move" isn't as dramatic as your two sentences with seven cites and the sentence in the lead made it appear. The prosecutors at the special counsel's office and Trump's counsel will be filing more motions. That might have a place at Federal prosecution of Donald Trump (2020 election case) but not here. I haven't removed the sentence from the lead yet (3RR). WP:NOTNEWS and consensus #37 (summary-level) apply. Space4Time3Continuum2x 20:07, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Is it significant? It has been very widely reported by RS that the special counsel sought a protective order and cited Trump's threats. This is what Trump's own former spokeswoman had to say about the threats. If those threats and the response to them are supposedly just a "standard move", then why is there widespread and global RS coverage and commentary on it? I seems to me that this clearly belongs here, in light of widespread RS coverage that indicates that it is a significant development. Threatening people in a legal case, particularly when federal prosecutors alert the federal court to the threats, seems like a big issue to me. --Tataral (talk) 20:37, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The prosecutors asked the judge to issue a protective order to "ensure that sensitive materials are used by Trump's defense team for only the trial, and that the former president view the materials in the presence of his lawyers" — that's the routine request. They cited the all-caps post as evidence that such an order is necessary — that's unusual but then most defendants are smart enough to not post something that stupid. If the judge does issue the order, that will make the headlines on major and minor news sites, too. Space4Time3Continuum2x 21:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Six business bankruptcies

I tried to find the word “bankrupt” at this talk page but couldn’t find it, so this edit summary by User:SPECIFICO doesn’t seem correct. Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:13, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

There was a discussion about this months ago that’s been archived. I suggested among other things: “keep bankruptcy figure but clarify it was business bankruptcies not personal bankruptcies”. The only response AFAIK was from User:SPECIFICO: “Also he didn't grow 4 arms. 4 personal bankruptcies, even for someone as old as Trump, would be difficult.” I still don’t understand this comment, I agree Trump does not have four arms, but I didn’t understand that comment as pertaining to inserting the word “business” before “bankruptcies” in the lead. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, what's your grievance with saying "business bankruptcy"? Iamreallygoodatcheckers 07:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I think User:SPECIFICO may have meant that it’s obvious from the present version of the lead that Trump didn’t have personal bankruptcies six times, since that would be an extremely unusual feat. But it’s not obvious from the present version of the lead that Trump didn’t have one or two personal bankruptcies, with the rest being business bankruptcies. Anythingyouwant (talk) 08:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

So much attention is making this old gal blush! Please follow ONUS and see whether you can gain support for your preferred word. SPECIFICO is not going in the article, so discussing her is barking up the wrong tree. SPECIFICO talk 11:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:LEAD: the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. We mention the Chapter 11 bankruptcies, with link to Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code, in Donald_Trump#Real_estate, Donald_Trump#Manhattan_developments, and Donald_Trump#Atlantic_City_casinos which are already summary-level per consensus #37. It's the editor adding content who should have explained their reason in their edit summary. (The edit also added the Chapter 11 Wikilink that would need to be discussed per consensus #60, IMO.) So, why does the summary of the summary need the extra word and link? I actually looked at that Kudzu-esque archive and know that you wrote "clarify it was business bankruptcies not personal bankruptcies" but not why we should. "I bankrupted six of my businesses but managed to skirt personal bankruptcy" isn't really something to brag about. Space4Time3Continuum2x 11:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, it's not to the level of "I didn't rape her, I just sexually assaulted her."--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Except for I didn't shoot the deputy, not much is. Space4Time3Continuum2x 15:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

It’s well-known that there is stigma associated with bankruptcy, more so for personal bankruptcy than business bankruptcy:

• THORNE, Deborah and ANDERSON, Leon. “MANAGING THE STIGMA OF PERSONAL BANKRUPTCY”, Sociological Focus (May 2006).
• Athreya, Kartik. “Shame As It Ever Was: Stigma and Personal Bankruptcy”, FRB Richmond Economic Quarterly (2004).

Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Cherrypickin' courtesy of Google. SPECIFICO talk 19:30, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

If there’s no stigma attached to personal bankruptcy, then you should be able to find a reliable source that says so. I didn’t see any such sources. Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:06, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

One of your sources was published in 2004, the other one in 2006. The data both papers are based on is 20 years old or older. I haven't been able to find any newer sources, pro or contra — don't know what that indicates, general indifference to the subject? Space4Time3Continuum2x 13:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• The "business bankruptcy" revision is more precise and it only adds one more word and a wiki link to the lead. I support it. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 20:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Clarification isn't a bad thing. By all means add "business bankruptcy", to the sentence. GoodDay (talk) 20:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  That is not the qadduestion we are disussing. And it's false. Adding excessive detail interrupts and dilutes the narrative. Consider all the adjectives that you could add before his name in the lead? If you care to support your view with relevant reasoning that addresses the stated objections, that would be helpful. SPECIFICO talk 21:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  As the person who started this thread and who raised the question we’re discussing, I agree that clarification isn't a bad thing, and adding the word "business” before “bankruptcies” in the lead would be wise. Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• I'm actually good with adding "business". Six business bankruptcies are quite the "discrediting predicament" such as poor financial performance, times six, per "Stigma of Bankruptcy: Spoiled Organizational Image and Its Management", another blast from the past (1987, four years before Trump's first bankruptcy). competent leaders are expected to exercise control over their organizations and that such control is expected to lead to organizational success, not to more than $1 billion in debt that the business can't pay interest on or repay. I'm opposed to add the link, per consensus #60 and MOS:OVERLINK. IMO business and bankrupty are "everyday words understood by most readers in context (e.g., education, violence, aircraft, river)". Space4Time3Continuum2x 13:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  If it's to be added, it should be stated it in proper English. "Business" is not an adjective. Six Trump businesses went bankrupt, six of his businesses filed for bankruptcy, or something. Were they all petitions filed by Trump? What were the circumstances? Were some forced by creditors? SPECIFICO talk 13:46, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  Of course it’s an adjective. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  There's a lot of improper English going around — business hours, business environment, business jet, business class. Don't creditors and their pesky requests for payment of interest and principal usually "force" debtors to go to bankruptcy court? It's a summary, thousands of legal actions, including six trips to bankruptcy court. I'm good with "bankruptcy" and "business bankruptcy", prefer the shorter version but meh. Space4Time3Continuum2x 14:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  I still oppose "business bankruptcies" and prefer the status quo "bankruptcies". One cannot have 6 personal bankruptcies. It would be like having six appendectomies. I think the insertion of "business" is an awkard, unnecessary, and misleading dilution of the narrative. SPECIFICO talk 15:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  One can have two personal bankruptcies and four business bankruptcies. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Four editors have said they’re okay with inserting “business”, and have explained why, with one of them saying they’re also okay with leaving that word out. A fifth editor has opposed, but has not substantiated that the word “business” is unusable as an adjective (nor has explained why the current language already implies all six were business bankruptcies). So I plan to insert it later today without wikilink. Anythingyouwant (talk) 11:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

How about six of his businesses went bankrupt. Is that what you want want to be sure that our readers know? SPECIFICO talk 13:10, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

If we talk about Bankruptcies in the lead, then we should insert the word business to clarify that they are business bankruptcies. The word business is obviously an adjective, I gave you a link to the dictionary, as in business deals business arrangements business trips etc. etc. etc. etc. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:47, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

That is not the issue I raised immediately above. I proposed a compromise that includes your "business" but makes it clear that it was Trump's businsesses that were forced into bankruptcy, not that he pursued others as plaintiff/creditor. I thought you would respond before you made the article edit. It will be evident to future generations of editors that "He and his businesses"..."Business bankruptcies" is redundant. Ciao. SPECIFICO talk 19:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

It is not redundant, because the word "business" excludes personal bankruptcy. We could add lots more modifers besides "business" but I think one is enough. Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:40, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

It is both settled and nonsense. Gratuitous detail that clutters the summary lead content and, contrary to your apparent belief, does not fully specify the meaning of the sentence. SPECIFICO talk 12:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Notification

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have been asked, by way of a message on my talk page, to close Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 157#Multi-part proposal for content on E. Jean Carroll v. Trump. I have no objection to doing this, and if nobody else minds, then I'll proceed to do so. I'm not American, I've never set foot in the US, I don't follow US politics, and I think I'm neutral and uninvolved. But it's a little unusual for a discussion participant to choose their own closer, so it's right for me to give people on this talk page a chance to raise any concerns or objections they might have before I start doing all the required reading. If you'd like to check my previous closes for any hint of bias, you're welcome to review User:S Marshall/RfC close log. I intend to leave this note here for a few days, and I will recuse from closing on request from any good faith, established editor (by which I mean any editor who's autoconfirmed as of this timestamp and not under any admin-imposed sanctions).—S Marshall T/C 18:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@S Marshall: Thank you for the notification. I would agree this is quite an unusual request, particularly because there is a request for closure and some dissent at the Requests for closure page. When heavily participated threads such as that one dissapate and are archived, we generally move on to other things. In this case, given the subsequent real world news related to the issue, I think that any renewed advocacy would most clearly be decided by a new discussion, proposal, and poll. (Not that I think it warrants such discussion. I was involved in the archived discussion.) SPECIFICO talk 18:37, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@S Marshall: I believe a close would be helpful. This issue has come up some since it was discussed and is prime to become a chronic content dispute on this article without a formal consensus statement. Editors put a lot of effort into that discussion for it to just sum up to nothing. I have no concerns over you suitability as a closer here. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 18:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

One reason that it was inconclusive and therefore not closed is that it was poorly framed before the issue was narrowed down as it must be for successful and lasting RfC decisions. But at any rate, 3 months later there is new information and the passage of time, and it would not be correct to draw any conclusions without reopening the discussion -- which can be done in a narrowly framed new poll, if anybody cares to do so. SPECIFICO talk 19:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

"Unusual" — if I understand AirshipJungleman29's comment correctly, it is improper for Starship.paint as a participant in the discussion to select a closer. The discussion had stopped and was archived without objections, so I'm a bit surprised to learn that Starship requested a close a month after that. Space4Time3Continuum2x 21:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• AirshipJungleman29's saying that nobody should close the discussion. Although I haven't read the discussion we're talking about, I already know there's a good chance that I'll disagree with him. It's been my experience that most contested discussions in contentious topic areas benefit from a formal closing statement that summarizes what the community thinks.—S Marshall T/C 21:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  It died a quiet death, just like so many other discussions that don't reach a consenus to do anything. Apparently, not to put words in their mouth, but I am guessing that Starship hopes that the close will favor insertion of the content. But as I've said, we have new developments. Yesterday a judge told Trump that in the ordinary meaning of the English word "rape", he did indeed rape her. I still think, however this is UNDUE for this page and inclusion of more detail will require even more detail to properly contextualize it. But that's what the trial's own page is for. So there cannot be any conclusive close of this three month old thread. If Starship wishes to pursue inclusion of this content, the best course would be to workshop a new RfC framing and launch a new more clearly defined RfC now. SPECIFICO talk 22:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• The closure request had been sitting for nearly a month, Space4Time3Continuum2x, and it was being marked as not done. I hope that you can see why I requested a closure from an experienced closer, and I thank S Marshall for their consideration. SPECIFICO, my main concern is that I want a proper close for the discussion in which many editors participated. At least everyone’s efforts would have not come to nothing. The close may go against me, or it may not; if my proposal is accepted, that is merely a bonus. starship.paint (exalt) 00:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• proper close: don’t you mean "formal"? Looks to me as though everyone involved decided to WP:DISENGAGE and live with the status quo ante, preferring no mention to "the wrong one". I kind of assume that during the month the closure request was open a number of potential closers took a look at the discussion and said "not with a ten-foot pole". By that time, the discussion had been closed for over 7 weeks and buried (archived) for 5 weeks.

Following up on Specifico’s edit, since the discussion stopped on May 17 Trump hasn’t just appealed the judgment (still pending), he also requested a new trial on damages or grant remittitur because contrary to Plaintiff's claim of rape, the Jury found that she was not raped but was sexually abused by Defendant". The judge denied the request and clarified the judgment. "Instead," the judge wrote, "the proof convincingly established, and the jury implicitly found, that Mr. Trump deliberately and forcibly penetrated Ms. Carroll's vagina with his fingers, causing immediate pain and long lasting emotional and psychological harm. Mr. Trump's argument therefore ignores the bulk of the evidence at trial, misinterprets the jury's verdict, and mistakenly focuses on the New York Penal Law definition of 'rape' to the exclusion of the meaning of that word as it often is used in everyday life and of the evidence of what actually occurred between Ms. Carroll and Mr. Trump," the ruling said. In the meantime, we’ve added the section Federal and state criminal cases against Trump and in January, at the latest, will probably add a section on the civil cases (at least three I know of, Carroll II and ACN scheduled for January, NY tax case unknown date), so I personally wouldn’t want to pet-sematary the discussion that stopped almost 3 months ago. Space4Time3Continuum2x 11:34, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• As of yet, I don't see a request that I recuse. I'll start the reading later today. That will take a few days because I'll read it three times: once from top to bottom, and then once from diff to diff, so I know I've followed both sequences and fully grasped all the arguments presented, and then at least one more time taking notes and checking the policy wordings. If, in the meantime, an autoconfirmed editor who's not under any sanctions asks me to recuse, then I will stop reading and recuse.—S Marshall T/C 15:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  OK, please recuse. SPECIFICO talk 16:11, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think you might be under sanctions?—S Marshall T/C 16:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  That’s right per WP:AEDR there are two sanctions. starship.paint (exalt) 01:13, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  Starship.paint, is there a rule that says editors can’t be under sanctions when asking for recusal? Didn't know that page existed — life sentences, no parole? 2014, Austrian economics and interaction at GGTF (what does that acronym stand for - not listed here or here). Space4Time3Continuum2x 11:21, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  GGTF is the Gender Gap Task Force.—S Marshall T/C 17:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  That's what S Marshall asked for. Why are you asking me? starship.paint (exalt) 13:38, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  My apology. I was under the mistaken impression that you supported the view that sanctioned editors can't request recusal. Space4Time3Continuum2x 13:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  is there a rule that says editors can’t be under sanctions when asking for recusal? Space4Time3Continuum2x 13:47, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think you've missed the point. I do not think there is a rule, but there isn't any need for there to be a rule. There's no need for S Marshall to recuse even if unsanctioned editors request it, but this is probably something S Marshall came up with as a principle for recusal. Even though it seems arbitrary, it can still be respected. starship.paint (exalt) 14:07, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• Please, recuse. Partially quoting this edit on Misplaced Pages:Closure_requests: The last comment was three months ago, the discussion is already four archive pages deep. The discussion is out of date, IMO - see my earlier edit. Space4Time3Continuum2x 11:25, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Space4Time3Continuum2x: - very disappointed. Your rationale shows that there is no conflict of interest for S Marshall to recuse. You just don't think the discussion should be closed. I thought better of you. starship.paint (exalt) 13:38, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry I disappointed you but I think that discussion is closed. If anyone goes BOLD and adds the lawsuit to the article, well, WP:BRDB. Clarifying, that wasn't meant as a challenge, dare, or threat. Since there's no consensus, WP:BRDB applies. Space4Time3Continuum2x 14:07, 10 August 2023 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x 17:16, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  Just as a practical matter, any close of that thread is likely either to be challenged (forbid the thought) or supplanted by a new discussion and RfC, due to 1) subsequent events and 2) the overly complicated statement of that months-old RfC. It's up to S Marshall what he does for any reason or for no reason but everyone's time would better be spent on more constructive tasks. SPECIFICO talk 15:00, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• Any close of any discussion involving Mr Trump is highly likely be challenged, and that's okay. Anyone qualified to close this is no stranger to close challenges. But I've been asked to recuse by an editor who meets the criteria I set; and therefore I recuse. This section can be hatted if you wish.—S Marshall T/C 17:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@S Marshall: Do you have any figures or a personal estimate of the relative frequency of close challenges to Trump-related discussions? I do not recall that having been the case, nor do I expect it generally to be the case in the future. Thanks for your efforts here. SPECIFICO talk 19:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Birthplace City

So I saw earlier on Misplaced Pages that for people born in NYC the consensus is to say “New York City, New York, U.S.” in the infobox. As such Donald Trump’s box should be changed as well. Banan14kab (talk) 00:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Except that dude is from Queens -- it's important to his life story. Queens boy moves to Manhattan, makes it big. SPECIFICO talk 02:25, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Queens is New York City. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 12:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

It's a borough of New York City but, as far as snooty Manhattanites were concerned (and in Trump's mind, it seems), he was a bridge-and-tunnel guy from Queens. Our current consensus, #2, is based on four discussions. Many people associate "New York City" with Manhattan. Space4Time3Continuum2x 13:36, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Which the infobox doesn't tell us and isn't fit to do so. All of that belongs in prose in the article. As a matter of simple vital statistics, all that belongs is "New York, New York, United States".--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:29, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

See current consensus, item 2. Space4Time3Continuum2x 10:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

How was that consensus reached? Banan14kab (talk) 05:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Those links there next to the item will take you to the archived discussions. Linking NYC is a MOS:OVERLINK. Including Queens provides a lot more context than saying NYC alone. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:44, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

No objection to changing to "New York City, New York, U.S", for birthplace. GoodDay (talk) 21:47, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Support keeping "Queens"; no reason to make it less precise and less concise. DFlhb (talk) 21:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

He is from Queens. Cant' you tell? SPECIFICO talk 22:52, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Residence

Shouldn't residence in the Infobox include Trump National Golf Club Bedminster? He spends summers there and says he wants to be buried there. JonathanDP81 (talk) 02:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Mar-a-Lago is his legal domicile where he pays taxes, is registered to vote, and where court summons can be served. The private quarters at Bedminster and the apartment at Trump Tower in Manhattan are not his primary residence. Space4Time3Continuum2x 10:35, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Why are the charges against Trump buried in this article?

The charges against Trump are probably the most significant thing about him at this point. They should be given more prominence in the lede and article and not buried, like they are now. This is a disgrace. Sad! 67.82.74.5 (talk) 12:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

If you have specific suggestions as to improvement of the article, please present them. Otherwise, "disgrace. Sad!" is pointless. SPECIFICO talk 12:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Why, he has not been found guilty yet. Slatersteven (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

They're not buried. Per our consensus #37 they're limited to summary-level in the body and in the last paragraph of the lead. Space4Time3Continuum2x 13:40, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You and at least 2 other people who have brought this concern to the talk page seem to not realize that Misplaced Pages is not news and thus that the lead of a Misplaced Pages article is not meant to follow the inverted pyramid structure of a news article. The lead is meant to summarize the body, and the body is meant to tell the story of the man's life, and chronological order is important to that endeavor. ~ ONUnicornproblem solving 14:08, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I mean, Trump tried to illegally overthrow the duly elected US Government and install himself as unelected dictator after losing the election. It's a pretty big deal. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 14:34, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

See wp:blp until he is found guilty of any of these, he is innocent of all of them. Slatersteven (talk) 14:44, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, when did that happen? He tried to state the election was his, and he'd be PRESIDENT again. Not "dictator." If you want to be take seriously, stay within the realms of reality. HammerFilmFan (talk) 03:02, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• Because it's a huge article about a topic where we have a ton of stuff to discuss, so it's hard to avoid things getting "buried." If you have a proposal for how it could be restructured, go ahead and offer it, but the charges do get nearly an entire paragraph at the end of the lead (and the two paragraphs above it, while not about them directly, discuss events that lead to them.) Currently the lead is mostly chronological because... imagine someone who knows little to nothing about Trump reading it. There's a lot of other biographical details we have to introduce before the charges even make sense - we have to talk about him being president and about the 2020 election before we can talk about his attempts to overturn the 2020 election, and we have to talk about his attempts to overturn the 2020 election before we can talk about charges stemming from that in particular. --Aquillion (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Why is there nothing about the cult of Trump in the article?

Since the cult of Donald Trump has been an important, if not critical aspect of Donald Trump since the 1980s, why is there not a single mention of this in the article? Donald Trump was famous for having an ardent cult following in the 1980s. It's how he promoted his books and got people to go visit his properties in Atlantic City and Las Vegas. It's how he got his fan base to buy Trump University products after his nationally famous business bankruptcies. There are many mentions and even books on this topic, so it's exclusion from the article leaves it being very suspect and even intentional. By the way, how much of this article was written by people from outside the United States, where most information on Donald Trump and the U.S. is largely unavailable? Stevenmitchell (talk) 19:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you have links to reliable sources that describe this "cult of Trump" going back to the 1980s? As for the contributions of editors outside the United States, Misplaced Pages is a worldwide project, and anybody anywhere in the world can contribute to any article on any topic, as long as they comply with our policies and guidelines. We don't do nationality tests. As for information about Trump being "largely unavailable" in other countries, that assertion is without merit. Media outlets worldwide cover Trump heavily, and anybody with a working uncensored internet connection in any country has easy access to vastly more Trump content than any human being can possibly read. Cullen328 (talk) 02:27, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

This is partly covered by Public image of Donald Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:51, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

WP had a page called MAGA cult which was moved to Trumpism. I'm fairly certain that Trump didn't have an "ardent cult following" in the 1980s — can't prove a negative, 'though. In the 80s, he did seek and get a lot of publicity, including a lot of ridicule. When "The Apprentice" became a success on reality TV, Trump used that success to advertise products offered/made by others, such as real estate training courses and the ACN videophone. The only property he's ever owned in Las Vegas, afaik, is the Trump International Hotel Las Vegas, the No. 10 ugliest building in the world and the sixth ugliest building in the U.S., which he co-owns with Phil Ruffin (it's a condo-hotel, unknown how many units were sold. It doesn't have a casino and didn't open until 2008. Space4Time3Continuum2x 12:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Sixth ugliest building in the U.S. is a wild description but I second this. If you find reliable sources (and in this case more scholarly sources would be warranted in my opinion) that discuss this "cult of Trump" extensively then we can probably include a short paragraph somewhere in the article. Cessaune 01:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

The only mention of Trump in the 1980s that I am familiar with is the Marvel Comics supervillain of that name, a stage magician and illusionist. His big ego, a tendency to abuse or kill his employees, and a lust for beautiful women were the character's only personality traits. Dimadick (talk) 23:13, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

14th Amendment

Space4Time3Continuum2x removed a section about Trump's possible ineligibility for office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. This is not just two lawyers saying this; this issue has been repeatedly raised in WP:RS before (as an Internet search for "Trump 14th amendment" on any of the major search engines will show), and is a matter of active controversy. I propose to reinstate this material. Comments welcome. — The Anome (talk) 07:51, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

NYT: "he scope and depth of the article may encourage and undergird lawsuits from other candidates and ordinary voters arguing that the Constitution makes him ineligible for office." If any states take Trump off the ballot, we’ll mention it but until then it’s an opinion and a hypothetical scenario. The sources you provided, as well as most others I found online, were about the legal paper published by law professors Baude and Paulsen. They’re members of the Federalist Society, so, of course, they received more publicity than, e.g., Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, who argued in July that "Donald Trump was the central cause of and a participant in the January 6th insurrection. Because of that, Trump is disqualified from holding any public office, including the Office of the President, under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment." They’re not conservative, though, so very few RS took notice. Space4Time3Continuum2x 09:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

E Jean Carroll civil case finding sexual abuse

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Demoted from RfC per discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:02, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Should we include the following text?

In November 2022, columnist E. Jean Carroll sued Trump for battery, alleging that he "forcibly raped and groped her" in a Manhattan department store in 1995 or 1996, and also sued him for defamation for his October 2022 statement, which included Trump's claim that Carroll "completely made up" the allegation. The jury's verdict, delivered in May 2023, stated that Carroll had proven that Trump sexually abused her and defamed her; thus the jury ordered Trump to pay $5 million to Carroll for damages. Federal judge Lewis Kaplan dismissed Trump's counter-claim that Carroll had defamed him by alleging rape. In his ruling, Kaplan stated that jury's verdict found that Trump did rape Carroll in the common understanding of the word, which includes digital rape. Trump has appealed the jury verdict against him.

After some widely-participated discussions months earlier on the topic, the discussions were unfortunately not closed, archived, and closure was rejected recently on the basis that since new developments occurred, the discussion may be out of date, and that it would be better to have a new discussion with new arguments. The above text is similar to Part 1 of the old discussion, but the second-last sentence ("digitally raped") is entirely new, due to new developments. starship.paint (exalt) 14:35, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Neumeister, Larry (November 24, 2022). "Elle advice columnist who accused Trump of rape has filed a new upgraded lawsuit". Fortune. Associated Press. Retrieved May 11, 2023.
2. "Read the full Trump-E. Jean Carroll verdict text here". CBS News. May 9, 2023. Retrieved May 11, 2023.
3. "Trump Defamation Claim Against Rape Accuser Carroll Fails". Bloomberg News. August 7, 2023. Archived from the original on August 8, 2023. Retrieved August 14, 2023.
4. Neumeister, Larry (May 12, 2023). "Trump appealing jury's sexual abuse verdict and $5 million award". Associated Press. Retrieved May 14, 2023.

Survey (Carroll)

• Support as proposer - the content is relevant, important, reliably cited, WP:DUE, and updated. Sources will be provided in green boxes in the Discussion section. starship.paint (exalt) 14:38, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - It's well sourced, neutral, certainly due. What's the problem? EDIT: Withdraw !vote until I look at Muboshgu's point. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - This is brief and to the point, and unlike the other allegations, this one has been adjudicated. Frankly, 18:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)I'm not sure an RfC is needed. I think a bold edit would not have been challenged. OP, please consider that instead of jumping to yet another time-consuming RfC. SPECIFICO talk 15:16, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose The recent text that had already been added after Judge Kaplan's dismissal of Trump's cross complaint is a better summary and more clearly articulates his court's point that Trump did rape her. -> Visitors, please see the post by Muboshgu in the comment section below. SPECIFICO talk 18:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support, per above, but see also in the discussion section below, there is extant text than needs to be merged with this or replaced by it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:29, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Not seeing a reason to add this - Forgive me if I am missing something, but Muboshgu has a good point that this content is already in the article. The only difference would be talking about "digital rape", and I'm not sure why this article needs that specific language. I would not protest such an addition, but it does not seem necessary. Ender and Peter 17:10, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and maintain the status quo - The existing text is superior to the one proposed here. It's better at summarizing Trump's argument for defamation. The proposed text could be confusing to readers as it doesn't establish clearly why Trump thought he had any merit to accuse Carroll of defamation. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 17:22, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  Surely you do not think that there are RS to establish that Trump believes any of his lifelong courtroom tactics have had "any merit". Strawperson, red herring, etc. SPECIFICO talk 17:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Starship.paint, I may be prejudiced but I also prefer the material I added yesterday and Muboshgu cited below. Notifying editor Objective3000 who !voted before Muboshgu's comment. Space4Time3Continuum2x 17:42, 14 August 2023 (UTC) I amended the material a few times, the current version is the one cited by Muboshgu below. Space4Time3Continuum2x 18:03, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Text noted by Mobushgu which appears to already be in the article is better phrased and does a better job of representing the source text. --Jayron32 17:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose The status quo provides more up-to-date sources. Also, where is Muboshgu's comment? I can't seem to find it. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:06, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

A question rather than a comment, in the "Discussion" section below. Space4Time3Continuum2x 19:13, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Scorpions13256 (talk) 19:17, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support this wording (or merge with the version that was added yesterday.) This proposal is overall more detailed in terms of the accusation and Trump's response. Some parts and sources could be merged from the two versions, but overall nobody has really given a good reason to omit anything present in either; even with both of them combined it'll still be one relatively small paragraph. --Aquillion (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think merging the text could work. We should see this as a working text open to helpful revisions. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 20:25, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  Now that we're all aware that this proposal ignored the current article text, I see no basis to start from this as a "working text". As is always the case, the status quo is the working text, and having read the RS reporting and commentary on the matter, while this version might have been OK as a first try, it is in no respect better than the revision that SpaceX volunteered the time and effort to create. The past several days' discussion of this matter has been a waste of the time and attention we need for other improvements. SPECIFICO talk 22:07, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  "the status quo is the working text" - I agree. But, I don't want people to see the current revision as written in stone through talk page consensus. If somebody want's to alter it (including merging aspects of Starship's proposal), it's something I'm open to. That's all I'm saying. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 22:14, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  Well, fine but that's the opposite of what you wrote above. Nothing is ever in stone on this site. No worries there. SPECIFICO talk 22:33, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (Carroll)

From previous discussion: @Shibbolethink, SPECIFICO, Lights and freedom, The Capitalist forever, Jerome Frank Disciple, DFlhb, Jayron32, Space4Time3Continuum2x, Iamreallygoodatcheckers, Bob K31416, and Objective3000: starship.paint (exalt) 14:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

• Regarding WP:DUE, see above. starship.paint (exalt) 14:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: I think you may have misunderstood the concern about your close request. I don't think we need this RfC. Just make the edit and see whether there's any objection. SPECIFICO talk 15:19, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, did you see the text I added yesterday? See Muboshgo's comment below, I amended the text a few times. Space4Time3Continuum2x 17:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

SpaceX -- No, sorry I missed that. Yours is better and it accomplishes what I tried to suggest Starship do with a bold edit rather than an RfC. Starship -- did you see SpaceX's edit? If so, I would have expected your RfC to give the two alternatives. It feels like a bit too much insistence on the needless close request that SpaceX remedied with their new post-trial text. I will withdraw my !vote, thank you for bringing this to our attention, Muboshgu & Space. SPECIFICO talk 18:06, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

• I'm a bit confused. Donald Trump#Civil lawsuits against Trump already includes the following:

In May 2023, a New York jury in a federal lawsuit brought by journalist E. Jean Carroll found Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation and ordered him to pay her $5 million. Trump asked the court for a new trial or a reduction of the damage award, arguing that the jury had not found him liable for rape. In July, the judge denied the request, saying that Trump had misinterpreted the verdict. The appeal Trump filed separately with the federal appeals court is still pending. In August, the judge dismissed Trump's countersuit for defamation, saying that the details of the jury’s findings showed that Carroll "having maintained that Trump raped her is 'substantially true'". Trump appealed the dismissal.

• Is this new text a proposal to overwrite what is already in the article? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

{{ping|Starship.paint} Please consider withdrawing this RfC and let's see whether anyone challenges Space-etc's summary of the matter. SPECIFICO talk 18:13, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. This appears to be unnecessary. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 18:20, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: (doesn't look like SPECIFICO's ping to you went through) Iamreallygoodatcheckers 18:21, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Sullivan, Becky; Bernstein, Andrea; Marritz, Ilya; Lawrence, Quil. "A jury finds Trump liable for battery and defamation in E. Jean Carroll trial". NPR. Retrieved 10 May 2023.
2. Orden, Erica (July 19, 2023). "Trump loses bid for new trial in E. Jean Carroll case". Politico. Retrieved August 13, 2023.
3. Reiss, Adam; Gregorian, Dareh (August 7, 2023). "Judge tosses Trump's counterclaim against E. Jean Carroll, finding rape claim is 'substantially true'". NBC News. Retrieved August 13, 2023.

UNDUE rape detail added to article

Since the withdrawal of this poll, there's been what I consider UNDUE, unnecessary, detail about Trump's assault added to the article. While it's possible that such content may be noteworthy and significant for various other article pages, it is not needed on this page, and it comes off merely as salacious and incommensurate with the summary level with which we treat dozens of other events.I'm mentioning this here because after I removed this content, it was reinserted (violating 24-BRD) and I am going to remove it again if it is not self-reverted by the editor who reinserted it. SPECIFICO talk 17:31, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add "He was then indicted later that month by a Fulton County, Georgia, grand jury on multiple counts for efforts to allegedly overthrow the results in that state." after "In August, a Washington, D.C., federal grand jury indicted him on four felony counts of conspiracy and obstruction related to efforts to overturn the 2020 election." TheCelebrinator (talk) 03:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Added | MK17b | (talk) 03:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

E Jean Carroll lawsuits

When/Where/Carroll II defamation claim

The article states that Trump was found liable for sexual abuse and defamation, but does not elaborate on the basic facts. Can we agree to include that it occurred in the mid-1990s in a department store, and that he defamed her by accusing her of making up the allegation? starship.paint (exalt) 06:24, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Conflating Carroll I and Carroll II

• I renamed the section to keep the discussion of E. Jean Carroll v. Donald Trump in one place. I just noticed that our current text conflates the two cases. Trump countersued Carroll in the 2019 case that hasn't gone to trial yet because it was hampered by Trump being president and the DOJ mulling over whether he made the remarks in his official capacity. The trial is scheduled for January 2024. We have two separate cases, and Trump has filed appeals in both cases. Here's an overview of both cases:

Carroll v. Trump (1:20-cv-07311) (Carroll I) (docket). November 2019: Carroll sues Trump for defaming her while he was president (by saying she made it all up). June 27, 2023: Trump sues Carroll for defaming him by saying in an interview after the jury verdict in Carroll II that he raped her. August 7: Judge dismisses Trump’s countersuit. August 10: Trump appeals dismissal.

Carroll v. Trump (1:22-cv-10016) (Carroll II) (docket). November 2022: Carroll sues Trump for Bergdorf attack in mid-90s and defamation after New York passed the Adult Survivors Act. May 10, 2023: Jury verdict. May 11, 2023: Trump appeals to Court of Appeals, Second Circuit. June 8: Trump motion for new trial. June 15: appeal was stayed. July 19: Judge denies request for new trial, stay on appeal is lifted.

Ran out of time to draft something for main space. Summary-level! Space4Time3Continuum2x 15:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Unless you want to explain everything, I simply noted that the counter-suit is in a different lawsuit: starship.paint (exalt) 23:09, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Details of physical attack

Wish to get input on whether there is support for adding that the jury's verdict concluded that Trump forcibly penetrated Carroll with his fingers. This is relevant in the light of the other claim that Carroll's rape allegations against Trump were "substantially true" in the ordinary understanding of the word "rape". It is the key reason behind the second claim. It also avoid misleading readers into thinking penile rape occurred, and we must be cautious on WP:BLP. Forced penetration with fingers, also known as digital rape, was widely covered in top mainstream sources below, satisfying WP:V and WP:DUE. starship.paint (exalt) 23:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

As I stated above, this detail is UNDUE for this article and reads as salacious -- and frankly, pointless and disgusting -- content that adds nothing to the brief mention of the judge's finding. This is not the detailed article about the assault or of the trial. Such content could arguably be significant to the NPOV narrative of some other topcic, but not to the summary of Trump's life story on this page. The suit was about defamation and his ongoing defamation after the verdict in the lawsuit. SPECIFICO talk 01:11, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

This is a widely covered point in sources I provided above, ranging from news agencies, American newspapers, American news broadcasters and non-American media. Puzzling how you can claim that it is UNDUE in light of the evidence of 15 sources above. Carroll II lawsuit is clearly about sexual abuse, and the July ruling for Carroll II cited digital rape with fingers. starship.paint (exalt) 01:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

As I have said numerous times, and as experienced editors know, not all facts that are widely covered in news sources or that are verified by multiple sources, are DUE NPOV weight for every Misplaced Pages article. Just as we would not include that content in our page about rape, defamation, NY Courts, the judge, etc. etc. we do not need to include it in the life story of Potus 45. SPECIFICO talk 02:05, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Bottom line is that editor SpaceX crafted good and sufficient, clear and concise, significant and complete text to add the new information about the court's finding of "rape". SPECIFICO talk 02:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

It seems that nothing would specific would satisfy you, since you reject the evidence. Good, sufficient, concise, complete, DUE is whatever you deem it. Again, the court finding on the verdict is that "Mr. Trump digitally raped Ms. Carroll." (Bloomberg). starship.paint (exalt) 02:37, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

We can word it differently: The judge rejected this in July and August, citing that the jury's verdict concluded that Trump digitally raped Carroll, so her rape allegations against him were "substantially true". starship.paint (exalt) 11:14, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

"It also avoids misleading readers into thinking penile rape occurred", "Trump digitally raped Carroll" — why is this distinction a BLP concern? The previous version is also WP:V and WP:DUE, IMO: Trump asked the court for a new trial or a reduction of the damage award, arguing that the jury had not found him liable for rape. In July, the judge denied the request, saying that Trump had misinterpreted the verdict. The appeal Trump filed separately with the federal appeals court is still pending. In August, the judge dismissed Trump's countersuit for defamation, saying that the details of the jury’s findings showed that Carroll "having maintained that Trump raped her is 'substantially true'". Trump appealed the dismissal. Space4Time3Continuum2x 12:45, 16 August 2023 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x 14:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC) I'm OK with the current version, without any details. Space4Time3Continuum2x 14:22, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• BLP concern is that simply stating rape is substantially true may mislead readers into thinking that penile rape / sexual intercourse was found to have happened. Britannica rape … most often involving sexual intercourse, Merriam Webster rape … usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly, From the case itself it is obvious that penile rape is considered a more severe offence than digital rape (sexual abuse), so by avoiding the implication that he committed penile rape, we avoid WP:BLP issues. starship.paint (exalt) 15:07, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Orden, Erica (July 19, 2023). "Trump loses bid for new trial in E. Jean Carroll case". Politico. Retrieved August 13, 2023.
2. Reiss, Adam; Gregorian, Dareh (August 7, 2023). "Judge tosses Trump's counterclaim against E. Jean Carroll, finding rape claim is 'substantially true'". NBC News. Retrieved August 13, 2023.

Trump Indicted in Georgia Prosecutors Accuse Trump of ‘Criminal Enterprise’ to Overturn Election

trump indicted

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/08/14/us/trump-indictment-georgia-election 2603:6080:3C09:EABE:BE0:B05F:3FF0:865 (talk) 11:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. The indictment is mentioned in the last paragraph of Federal and state criminal cases against Trump. Space4Time3Continuum2x 14:47, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Overlinking in the lead

I removed the second WP link in this sentence: In June, a Miami federal grand jury indicted him on 37 felonies related to his handling of classified documents (with three charges added in July). Reason: there are at least four WP pages on the documents case (my edit summary says "3" but I've since found another one), there are plenty of links to those pages in the body and on the page the remaining link points to, and more than one link for each one of the court cases is going to be confusing rather than helpful. (There will be more court cases, it seems.) The link promptly reinserted with the edit summary saying that it was a "correction of the link". Keep or remove? Space4Time3Continuum2x 14:44, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps we could make a list or category and link to that instead? - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 15:04, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Split suggested

The article is currently more than 100 kb long in prose. WP:SIZERULE advises that articles of such length "almost certainly should be divided". The section of the presidency alone is 57kb at the time of this writing. The article Presidency of Donald Trump is an even larger article than the featured one, 149 kb. There are other related articles even longer, like First 100 days of Donald Trump's presidency. Given that the topic of Donald Trump generates so much interest, my suggestion is to move out portions of the Presidency section to new articles or delete some text that is already duplicate in other existing articles, in order to reduce the size of the featured page. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 17:47, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I already made detailed suggestions on how to trim the article, but it went nowhere. The Presidency section is unbalanced and goes too far in the weeds on some points; there's lots of room to sharpen it. DFlhb (talk) 18:07, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

We can revisit it not as an urgent problem but rather as a size issue that could be addressed to improve readability, taking into account the thread you shared (thanks!). In this occasion, to differentiate from the previous thread, I focus on the Presidency section. The more controversial part is that for some editors some info is important and for others, not. Maybe we can navigate such differences of opinion and reach a consensus. But before that and more discussion, let's do a survey to save time and effort. Thinker78 (talk) 19:00, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Survey

Can interested editors in this tread state your position whether you think the article needs trimming by bolding TRIM, NOT TRIM, NEUTRAL and a very brief summary of your position for further discussion afterwards? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 19:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• Trim the "Covid-19" & "Investigations" sub-sections. They could be their own articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
• Trim practically everything, especially the Investigations sections. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
• do not trim solely for length reasons. it is no longer 2004, the majority of users aren't loading a Misplaced Pages article on dial-up. WP:SIZE should be deprecated. ValarianB (talk) 04:57, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
• IMO, neither the tag you added to the Presidency section nor this general discussion is helpful. Consensus #37 says that Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (I interpret the second sentence to mean that content WITHOUT lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy should be deleted.) If you or other editors have specific content in mind, go BOLD with an edit summary explaining your reasons or bring it to the Talk page. As always, be prepared to be reverted and defend your edit — this article, like its subject, is not for the faint of heart . Space4Time3Continuum2x 12:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• Trim Covid-19 and Investigations subsections. This article is too long to navigate easily. Cessaune 12:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• Trim per the very last comment by WAID in the thread I linked above.

A word: we should be careful not to be overly nitpicky or conservative when trimming. If a section gets rewritten based on book sources, which highlight different facts and behaviours, let's not get too attached to our previous content. WP:BESTSOURCES will contradict us on their assessments of salience and relevance, and we should let them. DFlhb (talk) 12:56, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Elaborate discussion

Please if you like to have an elaborate discussion use this section for improved utility and order of the thread. Ping replies to survey positions above if you want to expand on said points, if there are any. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 19:06, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Daily news

The article seems to have new incidents added daily.....is he in the news in the US daily? Moxy- 02:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• I would think so. He’s also in the news internationally due to four criminal cases and some lawsuits. starship.paint (exalt) 02:43, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

no offense but was this facetious? this is a news leader both home and abroad for days. weeks. ValarianB (talk) 04:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

ok i see.....the article is just made up of news sources as to why I ask. Moxy- 11:52, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

News sources are widely available. starship.paint (exalt) 11:57, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Got to be academic sources for older stuff by now. The article has very little research value.Moxy- 12:03, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome to start adding them. Thanks! starship.paint (exalt) 12:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Actually, WP:NOTNEWS applies to this article, too. We also have a local consensus, #37, above, that "ontent related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy." It's just that editors disagree on what's WP:NOTNEWS, and some, especially those who are not regulars on this page, get overly enthusiastic about adding the latest headlines. Space4Time3Continuum2x 12:37, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
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