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:In order to "come back to life," wouldn't one have to die first? With apologies to Salman Rushdie. ] (]) 20:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC) | :In order to "come back to life," wouldn't one have to die first? With apologies to Salman Rushdie. ] (]) 20:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC) | ||
:I agree with Dumuzid. How could Jesus 'come back to life' if he didn't die? ] (]) 00:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC) | :I agree with Dumuzid. How could Jesus 'come back to life' if he didn't die? ] (]) 00:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC) | ||
==The Miracle of Resurrection== | |||
Some scholars, notably ], have re-interpreted the life of Jesus and described the crucifixion as a painful and bloody mock event, in which the Jewish and Palestinian followers rescued Jesus, while the Roman and Temple authorities were duped into believing that the crucifixion happened. In this regard it is worthwhile to re-read the book The Nazarene, by this author and re-interpret the Gospels. | |||
If the crucifixion was a mock event, then it explains how Jesus appeared again to his followers and disciples. To avoid recapture Jesus and John may have emigrated to ], with friends of ] to look after them. Such a re-interpretation would indicate Jesus as co-author of the four Gospels and his brother James (in Jerusalem) being the Editor of the New Testament. The early life of Jesus, as described in the four Gospels would have been written by ] and ], the parents of Jesus. ] (]) 05:17, 20 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Redirect: Christ == | == Redirect: Christ == |
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Frequently asked questions
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- Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Misplaced Pages?
- The issue was discussed on the talk page:
- Based on this Misplaced Pages search the phrase is widely used in Misplaced Pages.
- The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
- The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.
- Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?
- Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.
- Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?
- The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:
- Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
- Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.
- The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.
- Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?
- The formal Misplaced Pages guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Misplaced Pages guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".
- Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?
- A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.
- Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
- Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
- It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."
- Finally, Misplaced Pages policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.
- Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
- A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
- More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.
- Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?
- Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
- Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?
- The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.
References
- R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
- Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
- Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
- Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.
Jesus’ birth date and death date
In the article Historical Jesus. It says Jesus was born between 7-2 BC and died 30-36 AD. 69.204.59.102 (talk) 07:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes it does, under Historical_Jesus#Other_possibly_historical_elements. This article talks about it at Jesus#Chronology. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:54, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
- He was born in 0 AD and died in30-33. Sheanobeano (talk) 14:28, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Sheanobeano: See WP:CIR. Why? Year zero. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- First year of Anno Domini calender. Sorry, I didn't know that there's no year zero. I meant 1 AD Sheanobeano (talk) 18:44, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Sheanobeano: It might surprise you, but Pope Benedictus XVI agrees with circa 4 BCE. There is no official dogma in Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or Protestantism that Jesus was born in 1 CE. While born in 1 CE might be a popular superstition, it is not what the Church teaches. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:01, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for that info. Sheanobeano (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- "While born in 1 CE might be a popular superstition" Not a superstition, an estimate by Dionysius Exiguus (6th century). We don't know what he based his estimate on, but it did not take into account the chronology of Herod the Great's reign. Dimadick (talk) 14:47, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Sheanobeano: It might surprise you, but Pope Benedictus XVI agrees with circa 4 BCE. There is no official dogma in Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or Protestantism that Jesus was born in 1 CE. While born in 1 CE might be a popular superstition, it is not what the Church teaches. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:01, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- First year of Anno Domini calender. Sorry, I didn't know that there's no year zero. I meant 1 AD Sheanobeano (talk) 18:44, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Sheanobeano: See WP:CIR. Why? Year zero. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
Jesus's Death
On this wiki page it said that Jesus died of crucifixion. Jesus was crucified on the cross and he came back to life . He never died of crucifixion.Malaquia100 (talk) 20:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- In order to "come back to life," wouldn't one have to die first? With apologies to Salman Rushdie. Dumuzid (talk) 20:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Dumuzid. How could Jesus 'come back to life' if he didn't die? Sheanobeano (talk) 00:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
The Miracle of Resurrection
Some scholars, notably Scholem Asch, have re-interpreted the life of Jesus and described the crucifixion as a painful and bloody mock event, in which the Jewish and Palestinian followers rescued Jesus, while the Roman and Temple authorities were duped into believing that the crucifixion happened. In this regard it is worthwhile to re-read the book The Nazarene, by this author and re-interpret the Gospels. If the crucifixion was a mock event, then it explains how Jesus appeared again to his followers and disciples. To avoid recapture Jesus and John may have emigrated to Patmos, with friends of Luke to look after them. Such a re-interpretation would indicate Jesus as co-author of the four Gospels and his brother James (in Jerusalem) being the Editor of the New Testament. The early life of Jesus, as described in the four Gospels would have been written by Mary and Joseph, the parents of Jesus. JohnEC Jr (talk) 05:17, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
Redirect: Christ
Premise: the human or divine figure of Jesus is the main topic of many different articles, the prominent ones being: Jesus, Christ (title), Jesus in Christianity, Jesus in Islam, etc. Now, the doubt: the page Christ currently redirects to Jesus, but wouldn't it be more appropriate to redirect Christ to Christ (title)? In the end, there wouldn't be any confusion, both pages exclusively talk about Jesus, but the latter at least focuses on his title. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- I think the reasoning is that when someone types christ into WP, the Jesus article is what they're after, in general. Therefore, the current redirect is mostly helpful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Yeah, maybe, but despite both words refer to the same person, theologically and enciclopedically speaking they're not exactly the same concept. Btw the page Christ (title) has a link to Jesus right at the beginning of its lead, so the people looking for that page could still easily find it. In other words, redirecting it shouldn't generate any confusion, but – if necessary – we could also place a disambiguation note on top of the article. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 02:05, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång. Veery few readers are likely to want this rather advanced article, which gets c. 630 views a day, vs 11,300 here. Johnbod (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Johnbod: Well, that's pretty easy to get all those views when you literally have 119 redirects. That's quite the issue here. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:19, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Doesn't really affect the issue here at all. Johnbod (talk) 02:32, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- It's not the issue - rather, it's proof of the point made by Grabergs and Johnbod. The article has 119 redirects because it's popular and very frequently sought - not the other way around. Look at the stats for the redirects themselves for proof. Jtrevor99 (talk) 13:59, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with Gråbergs and others. Btw, there would be no point making Christ a redirect to Christ (title). If that was the approach Christ (title) should just be moved to Christ. DeCausa (talk) 14:21, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Johnbod: Well, that's pretty easy to get all those views when you literally have 119 redirects. That's quite the issue here. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:19, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with the others that the existing redirect configuration looks correct per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. VQuakr (talk) 17:36, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
What Jesus taught about money and wealth
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I would like to edit this page in order to expound on what Jesus taught about money and wealth, as it was a large (although often overlooked) focal point of his teachings. The page even shows an image of Jesus speaking with the "rich young ruler", but it makes no mention of what Jesus said to this man regarding his need to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor. Jesus taught this same thing to his disciples, the pharisees, and a large crowd of people following him. And in his sermon on the mount he talked extensively about money in relation to one's service to God, and God's ability to provide the things money normally buys (food and clothing). Brownt20 (talk) 18:33, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- We aren't interested in your personal opinions, not even in your personal reading of the Bible. WP:CITE WP:SOURCES for your claims. Meaning highbrow sources, the Bible won't do, see WP:RSPSCRIPTURE. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- I fail to see how my request to edit the article amounts to "personal opinion". I'm talking about simply inserting more of Jesus' teachings into the section labeled as "teachings". If the Bible is not a source of Jesus' teachings, then there are many other teachings in this article which should be considered invalid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brownt20 (talk • contribs) 19:07, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment re:
The Bible is not a reliable source
: In order to better explain this to new editors such as @Steven1107: it's probably best to define terms for them. When "we" (Wikipedians) say "reliable source", we mean that something is suitable for citing what is stated in an article. For anything that is interpretive in nature, a WP:SECONDARY source is necessary. In the instance tgeorgescu is refering to, the Bible is the WP:PRIMARY source and does not explicitly say what you're saying it says - it's an interpretation. If you intend to say anything other than "the mystery of God is fulfilled in the days of the trumpet call by the 7th angel", then you need a reliable secondary source. To say that "biblically" or "scripturally" this means "completion" is interpretive. Secondary sources must meet the qualification of WP:RS (although a minority viewpoint could potentially be included, but in such a case, it would have to be WP:ATTRIBUTION rather than simply stated as fact). To sum up, when writing about something the Bible says, unless what you are adding is explicitly stated in the text, then you must have a reliable secondary source to cite. If you don't understand why, then go back to what I stated above and read the linked policies until you do understand it. - That being said, some of what is in this edit is OK, because it's straight from the text and is verifiable without interpretation; but some of it is very clearly not. For example: "
third trimester of her pregnancy
" - the text does not say this explicitly. It would seem to be implied since she gives birth right away, but it's not stated. Some of the other things are OK because they are stated in the text. If you don't understand what's OK and what's not OK, ask. But don't simply re-apply your exact edits when reverted - that's edit warring and we take a dim view of that. We are a collaborative environment. If your edit was reverted, pay attention to the reason given, and discuss on the talk page if you're not sure. ButlerBlog (talk) 12:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Comment re:
- Copy/pasted by tgeorgescu (talk) 19:18, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
- Per Butlerblog above: the article Christian views on poverty and wealth may provide some secondary sources that would pass muster. The New Testament section of that article uses far too much primary sourcing, but several of the secondary sources appear reasonable. Alternatively, one could simply link to that article from this one. Jtrevor99 (talk) 22:19, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
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