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WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Douma chemical attack, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. Remedy instructions and exemptions Enforcement procedures: Violations of any restrictions (excluding 1RR/reverting violations) and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Violations of revert restrictions should be reported to the administrators' edit warring noticeboard. Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned. With respect to any reverting restrictions: Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion. Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as clear vandalism. Clear vandalism of any origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

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Whistlebowers on alleged OPCW Douma findings cover-up

Now that the allegations of cover-up based on leaked OPCW documents are being discussed openly in the UN Security Council after the intervention of Aaron Mate, perhaps this article should be seriously reassessed. The Brazilian representative seems to give them credence in his intervention. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLivzYFFWg&t=1065s Qayqran (talk) 20:09, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Should definitely be included in the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 04:37, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Can you present a policy-based reasoning for that opinion? VQuakr (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Grayzone's YouTube is not a reliable source, per RSP. Was this at the UN Security Council, or at a Russian-hosted Arria formula meeting. Are there reliable secondary sources showing this is noteworthy? BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The source is a meeting of UN Security Council members video, not Grayzone. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The Youtube link posted above is from the Grayzone channel. Per RSP, "The Grayzone was deprecated in the 2020 RfC. There is consensus that The Grayzone publishes false or fabricated information." See WP:GRAYZONE.

A "UN Security Council members video" would be a primary source, which would be original research and would not indicate noteworthiness. See WP:PRIMARY. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

It is hosted at Grayzones youtube channel, but that's not the source, the source is the video itself. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 03:34, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Which makes it WP:PRIMARY. If it was noteworthy, a RS would pick it up. VQuakr (talk) 03:45, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

OPCW tangents

So, Supreme Deliciousness just restored a very long section on various OPCW "whistleblowers" that had been removed from the article back in November by Volunteer Marek (it was briefly restored by Alaexis with the edit summary "rv removal of sourced info; the level of detail is probably excessive but then we need to summarise them rather than removing everything"; then My very best wishes removed it again). I haven't looked back further to see how long it had been there. I reverted Supreme D's edit yesterday, and s/he swiftly reverted. The article is under 1RR so obviously I won't revert again.

I believe that this huge section was undue back in November, and hence the version without it became the stable consensus version. However, now that the OPCW-IIT report was published in January, which deals in a very evidence-based way with all the concerns raised by "Alex" and Henderson, this older material is even less due. The new version of the article has much more on the arcane details relating to these "whistleblowers" than it does to the IIT report, which can't be right.

The edit also includes a major change to the infobox and lead to change the attribution from the Syrian gov to "Unknown", despite the exhaustive UN investigation and the overwhelming consensus in the real world being clear about who is responsible. That seems to me straightforwardly pushing a fringe POV.

Thoughts? BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

While I was writing this VQuakr reverted the new edit (thanks!) so we are back to the consensus version. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for tagging me. I think that the version you reverted had way too many details and must be trimmed. However, the version you restored is also problematic: since the leaks are not mentioned it's not clear what differing views Fernando Arias is talking about ("Fernando Arias reaffirmed his defense of the FFM report, saying of differing views..."). Similarly, it's written that Bellingcat criticed Henderson's report ("Bellingcat published a report in which it said it had found problems with the engineering assessment") but again the reader finds itself confused about the contents of the report. Please take a look at the compromise version. Alaexis_¿question? 18:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

This makes sense to me. I've made some small edits to the compromise version for clarity etc. I still think this needs to made much more concise, and the final IIT report get more weight than this back and forth. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:10, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

"and hence the version without it became the stable consensus version." ... the info was removed without any discussion or consensus so the removal slipped under the radar. This is NOT any "stable consensus" VQuakr and Bobfrombrockley are now edit warring to remove important information that the reader now will be unable to find. There are large doubts about the OPCW investigation by several journalists and whistleblowers so the removal of this from the article heavily distorts what has happened. The article now is completely one sided and censored. It is still an allegation that the Syrian Air force carried out the attack, it is still denied by Syria and Russia.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 03:33, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:MANDY. You don't get to show up after six months and decide to restore some version that fits your narrative. The tag bombing is disruptive and an indicator that you shouldn't be editing in this subject area. Giving more space to the conspiracy theory than the mainstream is obviously undue. VQuakr (talk) 03:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

SD, A single edit (to restore a stable version) is not “edit warring”. When you reverted my edit, I refrained from editing and brought it to talk, tagging you. Please assume good faith instead of criticising editors personally. Thank you. BobFromBrockley (talk) 05:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

“Dubious”

Re this edit: I strongly oppose it. No reliable sources support any doubt about the perpetrator. To suggest otherwise is to give credence to WP:FRINGE positions. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:08, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

see the info removed here: the entire event is questionable and denied by Syria and Russia. There is no 100% conclusion.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:03, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

That material (most of which is back in the article - see talk thread above) does not include a single reliable source saying that there is any doubt about the perpetrators. Russia and Syria denying it (a fact mentioned several times in the article) doesn’t mean there’s any real

doubt about their guilt BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

The information about "Henderson concluded in his assessment that the evidence encountered at the site in Douma indicated that the liquefied-chlorine cylinders were not dropped from helicopters, but manually placed in their respective locations." is sourced to The independent and is a reliable source, that info has been removed from the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Sourced from an opinion piece in the Independent. Not noteworthy. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:13, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Reverted per WP:FALSEBALANCE. They would deny it, wouldn't they? VQuakr (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

VQuakr, you removed the Syrian and Russian response to the OPCW IIT report and claimed "WP:FALSEBALANCE". Syria and Russia are two heavily involved parts in this occurrence. The first line of "WP:FALSEBALANCE" says: "While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic" , Syria and Russia are indeed two significant viewpoints, it allegedly happened in Syria and Syria is accused and Russia are their partner in the war so their response deserves to be in the article. Your removal is therefore highly inaccurate. It is also more accurate and encyclopedic to present it in the article as: "the OPCW IIT report concluded that Syria was behind the attack" instead of just saying "Syria was behind it", and that Syria and Russia rejected the report, this has nothing to do with "WP:FALSEBALANCE" because the Syrian/Russian response is presented as a Syrian/Russian response and not as a "fact" of what happened. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

We give the Russian/Syrian POVs due weight in the article. Those viewpoints are not being excluded. VQuakr (talk) 18:30, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Where in the article does it say that Syria and Russian rejects and criticizes OPCW-IIT ? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 03:29, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Russia's denialism is mentioned repeatedly in the article, throughout. In particular, see the "Reactions" sections but we also include a quote that refers to it in the "OPCW-IIT Findings" section. If anything I think we should reduce the Russian/Syrian POV per WP:WEIGHT. VQuakr (talk) 14:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

It is also more accurate and encyclopedic to present it in the article as: "the OPCW IIT report concluded that Syria was behind the attack" instead of just saying "Syria was behind it" That might be plausible if only the IIT concluded this. However, every serious piece of research and investigation has concluded it. Some voices deny that climate change is real or that the earth is round, but we don't need to attribute when the consensus is overwhelming. We give weight to the denials already. Adding in more (see WP:MANDY) is unnecessary. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

OPCW fact-finding mission review

I recently came across a review, submitted to the European Parliament, entitled A Review of The Organization For the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Fact-Finding Mission Report Into the Alleged Use of Chemical Weapons in Douma: Evidence of Manipulation, Bias, and Censorship. It can be read here. It is credited to the following four authors:

• Hans-Christof von Sponeck, former UN Assistant Secretary General and UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq
• José Bustani, Brazilian ambassador and first director-general of the OPCW
• Richard A. Falk, Professor Emeritus of international law at Princeton
• Piers Robinson, professor and co-director of the Organisation for Propaganda Studies

This seems quite notable, and I'm surprised that I don't see any reference to it here. Perhaps one reason is its size - it is 162 pages long, and contains 192 endnotes. Perhaps we can work together here to parse out what is of most use for the Misplaced Pages article? Philomathes2357 (talk) 07:05, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are some editors here who don't allow any info that challenges the "official" Israeli/US/NATO version. They resort to edit warring to keep relevant info out of the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:14, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

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