Talk:Ravi Shankar: Difference between revisions

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	== Role in Western view of Indian music ==
			{{British English}}
			{{Article history
			\| action1 = GAN
			\| action1date = 19:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
			\| action1link = Talk:Ravi Shankar/GA1
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			\| currentstatus = GA
	Interesting. He criticised the way Indian music was made "superficial" and "marginalised" , yet he played a major part in encouraging this by playing at Rock festivals with the Beetles and allowing this to happen himself.
			\| topic = music

			\| itn1date = 2012-12-12
	== Disambiguation ==
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			==Two Birthplaces?==
	The question has arisen whether or not the page ] ought to be a disambiguation page for ], ] and others. Although the immediate question pertains to the Ravi Shankar article, this question touches upon some larger questions related to when should an ambiguous title point to a disambiguation page, versus when should it point to the most commonly expected page.

			Intro paragraph says he was born in Narail, which is in present-day Bangladesh, while in the Early Life section it says he was born in Benares, a city in India. I think the fact is that his father was from Narail, and the family was living in Benares at that time. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	I will start the discussion by pointing out that there are three types of links that need to be fixed:
	#links to the wrong article
	#links to disambiguation pages
	#links to non-existent articles

			== Pundit ==
	Whether an ambiguous title points to a disambiguation page or to the most likely article will affect the types of bad links that are created. If the ambiguous title points to the most likely article, then in cases where the most likely article was not intended, naive links will point to the wrong article. If the ambiguous title points to a disambiguation page, then naive links will ''always'' be links to disambiguation pages. In one case, some, perhaps most, links will not need fixing, in the other case, all links will need fixing. But in addition to the issue of the relative proportion of links that need fixing, is the issue of the costs associated with each type of ''bad'' link.
			The name should be Pundit Ravi Shankar, that is how he is known. There is hardly anybody who ever knew of him as just Ravi Hsnakar (There may be thousands of Ravi Shankar at any given time) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:It's usually spelled ] and there's an explanation in this article in . But I don't think honorary titles like this are generally used as part of the name. Given that this has been a ], I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been carefully considered. Perhaps it's ok to use just in the article opening sentence and infobox, but not as the article title? Any views? ] (]) 12:39, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

			== Anoushka--absurd statement ==
	===Costs ambiguous name pointing to disambiguation page===
	There are at least three ways that users may arrive at a disambiguation page.
	#by typing in the name of the page in the search box and pressing <strong>Go</strong>
	#by typing in a search term in the search box and pressing <strong>Search</strong>, then selecting a page from the results.
	#by clicking on a link that points to that page
	I don't have any figures regarding the relative frequencies with which these methods are used to reach a page. I will, however, make some general observations.
	#When a user clicks the <strong>search</strong> button, they would probably not inconvenienced by the appearance of a disambiguation page
	#If the percentage of links to a disambiguation page is small in comparison to links to the disambiguated articles, then the likelihood of arriving at the disambiguation page via a link becomes correspondingly small.
	#If the ambiguous title points to a disambiguation page, then most attempts to reach a related article using the <strong>Go</strong>button will bring the user to the disambiguation page.

			The article says: "After separating from Kamala Shastri in 1981, Anoushka Shankar was born to Shankar and Sukanya Rajan."<br />
	===Cost of links to an incorrect page===
			How could Anoushka Shankar have separated from anybody before she was born? ] (]) 19:17, 15 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
	The main difficulty in correcting a link to an incorrect page is that the location of such links is generally unknown. Such links may be found through browsing the articles, or by iterating through the "What links here" list. The effort required to find errors by iterating through "What links here" lists must be repeated over and over again if it is to find newly introduced errors. Thus the cost of fixing such links through planned effort is high. On the other hand, if a user, browseing Misplaced Pages comes across an incorrect link, there are several possibilities.
	# The user recognizes that the link is in error and fixes it.
	# The user recognizes that the link is in error and does nothing to fix it.
	# The user does not recognize the error, but draws no incorrect conclusions.
	# The user does not recognize the error and arrives at incorrect conclusions. (For example, a user might conclude that Ravi Shankar, the musician, is an alumnus of Government Victoria College, Palakkad, which is false).

			Now says "After Shankar separated from Kamala Shastri in 1981, Anoushka Shankar was born to Shankar and Sukanya Rajan", Anoushka's birth is given as 9th June 1981, if you are understandable trying to gloss over a little hanky-panky in the man's life, which is not relevant to his artistry only to a gossip mag , why not remove the whole statement altogether? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	===Costs of links to disambiguation pages===
			:No, it was a grammar point. The way the statement was written, it said that Anoushka separated from Kamala Shastra before Anoushka was born. Of course it should have said Ravi separated from Kamala. But it didn't. It said Anoushka was born after ANOUSHKA separated from Kamala. ] (]) 13:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
	The costs of links to disambiguation pages differ from the costs of links to the wrong article.
	*Links to disambiguation pages are easy to find, via "What links here" enabling them to be efficiently corrected through planned effort.
	When a browsing user clicks on a link to a disambiguation page the user may
	# Click through to the page they seek without making the original link a direct link
	# Fix the original link to a direct link as well as proceed to their desired page.
	If no planned effort is used to fix links to disambiguation pages, then the quantify of inconvenience to users by the link to the disambiguation page depends on the frequency with which users change such links to direct links.

	=== My ~~opinion~~ ===		== External links modified ==
	Given the above considerations, I am of the opinion that the greatest costs are associated with links to the wrong article, even when one particular article is much more like to be the desired article than others. The costs associated with links to disambiguation pages I think are significantly less than the costs associated with links to the wrong article. The area where the issues seem most clouded are when users attempt to reach pages with the <strong>Go</strong> button. All in all, I would argue that it would be a net win for the ] page to be a disambiguation page. --] 21:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:I didn't really read through this long analysis, but current common practice is that if one person with the name will receive a very large share of the name's usage, such as with ], ], ], etc., then they get the direct page, while if the name is split among two or more with roughly equal usage, such as with ] or ], then disambig gets the direct page. This current practice seems very reasonable to me. As for this particular case, I don't know anything about the "other" Ravi Shankars, so I can't say. ] 22:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:::Well the executive summary of my argument is that even when one article gets 9/10's of the attention, the costs of having ] point to a particular Ravi Shankar are probably greater than having it point to a disambiguation page. Double links have low cost over there lifetime, which I imagine would a fairly limited number of uses. --] 23:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150530204253/http://sangeetnatak.gov.in/sna/awardeeslist.htm to http://sangeetnatak.gov.in/sna/awardeeslist.htm
			*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6U68ulwpb?url=http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mha/files/LST-PDAWD-2013.pdf to http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mha/files/LST-PDAWD-2013.pdf
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304023617/http://sangeetnatak.gov.in/sna/fellowslist.htm to http://sangeetnatak.gov.in/sna/fellowslist.htm

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	::Strange that you'd bring up as good examples of disambiguation two horrible examples of how disambig pages should really work. ] uses bold even though it shouldn't, and since there are only two actual articles with that name, could easily just move "Bob Grant (radio)" to "Bob Grant" and have it link to the actor at the top of the page, essentially encapsulating the entire disambig page in a single line of text at the top while allowing at least half of the readers to instantly read the page they want, and the other half to be no less inconvenienced than they would have been by a disambig page. Even more so, ], which doesn't even have an extra broken link for the disambig page to provide, should clearly have one of them (probably the author) at ], and link to the other at the top, and vice versa. Instant disambig! Having a ''whole page'' just for a pair of links is completely overdoing it when only two articles are possible options. And even more so, of course, when one page is vastly more likely than the other to be the one looked for, as is the case when one of the articles is simply named after the page (Ravi Shankar) and the other is merely ''similarly''-named, not identically. Then again, the vast majority of disambiguation pages, ironically enough, violate disambiguation style in some ways or others, so it's hard to find good role models... -] 22:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	:::Well, to be honest, I don't care how it's done ... you guys should petition ] to revise the diambig guidelines then. I think Ravi Shankar should follow whatever those guidelines are. ] 22:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 01:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
	:::::First, I think 'the powers that be' would want to know the consensus reached by the editors. Second, I think guidelines, in contradistinction to policy, are meant as suggestions rather than laws. If editors find that a particular guideline doesn't seem to provide the best results, I think the editors are free to set the guideline aside when appropriate, and to re-write the guideline in light of experience and a growth in understanding. Long and short, I think that the editors are "the powers that be" in this case. --] 22:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	::::Ravi Shankar, the musician, and Ravi Shankar, the guru, are ''identically'' named. ''Sri'' is an honorific, and the guru apparently merits two of them. ] 23:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:::::Yes, and there has been ] of renaming the article Sri Sri Ravi Shankar --] 22:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	If you take a look at the "What links here" tool for each article, ] is linked to by , whereas ] is linked to by . However, in my personal opinion, unless the search is ridiculously common (even more so than the above mentioned ] example), along the lines of ], the disambiguation page should be the one to come up. The pages can be built to point to the most obvious article, but if you disambiguate it makes it easier for the overall search. -- ] 00:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mha/files/LST-PDAWD-2013.pdf
			*Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/5rUTg6OvI?url=http://www.mpinfo.org/mpinfonew/hindi/award/kalidas.asp to http://www.mpinfo.org/mpinfonew/hindi/award/kalidas.asp

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	:So make a ] and link to both of them from there, and let the links to the musician be the default, since he is '''''by far''''' the most commonly-known. ]\|] 03:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	::There already is a ]. The discussion is whether to keep it that way, and have a search for "Ravi Shankar" go directly to ] (the musician), or to have the search go to the disambiguation page. -- ] 03:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 18:41, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
	:I did read the long explanation, and it did a fine job! Thank you.

			== "sitar maestro" ==
	:*The guidelines at ] already state "well-known (indicated by a majority of links in existing articles)". Natalya indicates that the musician is by far the more well-known. So, the "Ravi Shankar" should link directly. And {{tl\|Otheruses}} should be used, without another extra link to the relatively unreferenced "Sri Sri Ravi Shankar".

			Is "sitar maestro" actually used as a title, and not just a description or part of an introduction? If not, the statement in the lede that those words often precede Shankar's name are puffery and should be rephrased to simply state that he is (or is regarded as) a maestro. ] (]) 00:11, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
	:*However, remember that this is not set in stone! Someday in the future, the musician may not be the majority of links any longer. At that time, it's easy enough to move "Ravi Shankar (disambiguation)" to "Ravi Shankar" (making it a Generic topic page). OK?
	::--] 11:41, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			:That's a distinction without a difference. He's a maestro, he's regarded as a maestro. It would be puffery if he were a hack, which he's not. ] (]) 09:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
	=== Questions regarding a partial solution ===

	There seem to be mixed opinions on this topic. I would
	like to know opinions regarding whether it would be
	a good (or bad) thing for me to do the following.
	#move the current article to 'Ravi Shankar (musician)'
	#Leave a redirect (for the moment at least) from 'Ravi Shankar' to 'Ravi Shankar (musician)'
	#Finish changing the existing links to either 'Ravi Shankar (musician)' if appropriate, or to another page if appropriate.
	#Continue to add red-line links to the disambiguation page when an existing link was intended for an individual for which there is no existing article.
	Please share your opinions on my taking these steps. Please also note that I have come across 3 instances where existing links to 'Ravi Shankar' pointed to the wrong article. --] 22:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

	===Related guideline (proposal)===
	Not so long ago someone started ] - maybe not a bad idea to see this discussion in the light of that ''guideline proposal'' too? --] 09:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

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Two Birthplaces?

Intro paragraph says he was born in Narail, which is in present-day Bangladesh, while in the Early Life section it says he was born in Benares, a city in India. I think the fact is that his father was from Narail, and the family was living in Benares at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.242.217.46 (talk) 17:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Pundit

The name should be Pundit Ravi Shankar, that is how he is known. There is hardly anybody who ever knew of him as just Ravi Hsnakar (There may be thousands of Ravi Shankar at any given time) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.251.14 (talk) 10:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

It's usually spelled Pandit and there's an explanation in this article in The Daily Telegraph. But I don't think honorary titles like this are generally used as part of the name. Given that this has been a Good Article, I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been carefully considered. Perhaps it's ok to use just in the article opening sentence and infobox, but not as the article title? Any views? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:39, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Anoushka--absurd statement

The article says: "After separating from Kamala Shastri in 1981, Anoushka Shankar was born to Shankar and Sukanya Rajan."
How could Anoushka Shankar have separated from anybody before she was born? Uporządnicki (talk) 19:17, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Now says "After Shankar separated from Kamala Shastri in 1981, Anoushka Shankar was born to Shankar and Sukanya Rajan", Anoushka's birth is given as 9th June 1981, if you are understandable trying to gloss over a little hanky-panky in the man's life, which is not relevant to his artistry only to a gossip mag , why not remove the whole statement altogether? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.206.106 (talk) 15:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

No, it was a grammar point. The way the statement was written, it said that Anoushka separated from Kamala Shastra before Anoushka was born. Of course it should have said Ravi separated from Kamala. But it didn't. It said Anoushka was born after ANOUSHKA separated from Kamala. Uporządnicki (talk) 13:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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"sitar maestro"

Is "sitar maestro" actually used as a title, and not just a description or part of an introduction? If not, the statement in the lede that those words often precede Shankar's name are puffery and should be rephrased to simply state that he is (or is regarded as) a maestro. 73.149.246.232 (talk) 00:11, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

That's a distinction without a difference. He's a maestro, he's regarded as a maestro. It would be puffery if he were a hack, which he's not. Binksternet (talk) 09:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

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