Talk:Ravi Shankar: Difference between revisions

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			{{British English}}
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			\| currentstatus = GA
	== Role in Western view of Indian music ==
			\| topic = music

			\| itn1date = 2012-12-12
	Interesting. He criticised the way Indian music was made "superficial" and "marginalised" , yet he played a major part in encouraging this by playing at Rock festivals with the Beetles and allowing this to happen himself.
			}}
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	== ~~Disambiguation~~ ==		==Two Birthplaces?==

			Intro paragraph says he was born in Narail, which is in present-day Bangladesh, while in the Early Life section it says he was born in Benares, a city in India. I think the fact is that his father was from Narail, and the family was living in Benares at that time. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	The question has arisen whether or not the page ] ought to be a disambiguation page for ], ] and others. Although the immediate question pertains to the Ravi Shankar article, this question touches upon some larger questions related to when should an ambiguous title point to a disambiguation page, versus when should it point to the most commonly expected page.

			== Pundit ==
	I will start the discussion by pointing out that there are three types of links that need to be fixed:
			The name should be Pundit Ravi Shankar, that is how he is known. There is hardly anybody who ever knew of him as just Ravi Hsnakar (There may be thousands of Ravi Shankar at any given time) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	#links to the wrong article
			:It's usually spelled ] and there's an explanation in this article in . But I don't think honorary titles like this are generally used as part of the name. Given that this has been a ], I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been carefully considered. Perhaps it's ok to use just in the article opening sentence and infobox, but not as the article title? Any views? ] (]) 12:39, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
	#links to disambiguation pages
	#links to non-existent articles

			== Anoushka--absurd statement ==
	Whether an ambiguous title points to a disambiguation page or to the most likely article will affect the types of bad links that are created. If the ambiguous title points to the most likely article, then in cases where the most likely article was not intended, naive links will point to the wrong article. If the ambiguous title points to a disambiguation page, then naive links will ''always'' be links to disambiguation pages. In one case, some, perhaps most, links will not need fixing, in the other case, all links will need fixing. But in addition to the issue of the relative proportion of links that need fixing, is the issue of the costs associated with each type of ''bad'' link.

			The article says: "After separating from Kamala Shastri in 1981, Anoushka Shankar was born to Shankar and Sukanya Rajan."<br />
	===Costs of ambiguous name pointing to disambiguation page===
			How could Anoushka Shankar have separated from anybody before she was born? ] (]) 19:17, 15 November 2013 (UTC)<br />
	There are at least three ways that users may arrive at a disambiguation page.
	#by typing in the name of the page in the search box and pressing <strong>Go</strong>
	#by typing in a search term in the search box and pressing <strong>Search</strong>, then selecting a page from the results.
	#by clicking on a link that points to that page
	I don't have any figures regarding the relative frequencies with which these methods are used to reach a page. I will, however, make some general observations.
	#When a user clicks the <strong>search</strong> button, they would probably not be inconvenienced by the appearance of a disambiguation page
	#If the percentage of links to a disambiguation page is small in comparison to links to the disambiguated articles, then the likelihood of arriving at the disambiguation page via a link becomes correspondingly small.
	#If the ambiguous title points to a disambiguation page, then most attempts to reach a related article using the <strong>Go</strong> button will bring the user to the disambiguation page.

			Now says "After Shankar separated from Kamala Shastri in 1981, Anoushka Shankar was born to Shankar and Sukanya Rajan", Anoushka's birth is given as 9th June 1981, if you are understandable trying to gloss over a little hanky-panky in the man's life, which is not relevant to his artistry only to a gossip mag , why not remove the whole statement altogether? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	===Cost of links to an incorrect page===
			:No, it was a grammar point. The way the statement was written, it said that Anoushka separated from Kamala Shastra before Anoushka was born. Of course it should have said Ravi separated from Kamala. But it didn't. It said Anoushka was born after ANOUSHKA separated from Kamala. ] (]) 13:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
	The main difficulty in correcting a link to an incorrect page is that the location of such links is generally unknown. Such links may be found through browsing the articles, or by iterating through the "What links here" list. The effort required to find errors by iterating through "What links here" lists must be repeated over and over again if it is to find newly introduced errors. Thus the cost of fixing such links through planned effort is high. On the other hand, if a user, browseing Misplaced Pages comes across an incorrect link, there are several possibilities.
	# The user recognizes that the link is in error and fixes it.
	# The user recognizes that the link is in error and does nothing to fix it.
	# The user does not recognize the error, but draws no incorrect conclusions.
	# The user does not recognize the error and arrives at incorrect conclusions. (For example, a user might conclude that Ravi Shankar, the musician, is an alumnus of Government Victoria College, Palakkad, which is false).

	==~~=Costs~~ of links to ~~disambiguation pages=~~==		== External links modified ==
	The costs of links to disambiguation pages differ from the costs of links to the wrong article.
	*Links to disambiguation pages are easy to find, via "What links here" enabling them to be efficiently corrected through planned effort.
	When a browsing user clicks on a link to a disambiguation page the user may
	# Click through to the page they seek without making the original link a direct link
	# Fix the original link to a direct link as well as proceed to their desired page.
	If no planned effort is used to fix links to disambiguation pages, then the quantify of inconvenience to users by the link to the disambiguation page depends on the frequency with which users change such links to direct links.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	=== My opinion ===
	Given the above considerations, I am of the opinion that the greatest costs are associated with links to the wrong article, even when one particular article is much more like to be the desired article than others. The costs associated with links to disambiguation pages I think are significantly less than the costs associated with links to the wrong article. The area where the issues seem most clouded are when users attempt to reach pages with the <strong>Go</strong> button. All in all, I would argue that it would be a net win for the ] page to be a disambiguation page. --] 21:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:I didn't really read through this long analysis, but current common practice is that if one person with the name will receive a very large share of the name's usage, such as with ], ], ], etc., then they get the direct page, while if the name is split among two or more with roughly equal usage, such as with ] or ], then disambig gets the direct page. This current practice seems very reasonable to me. As for this particular case, I don't know anything about the "other" Ravi Shankars, so I can't say. ] 22:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150530204253/http://sangeetnatak.gov.in/sna/awardeeslist.htm to http://sangeetnatak.gov.in/sna/awardeeslist.htm
			*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6U68ulwpb?url=http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mha/files/LST-PDAWD-2013.pdf to http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mha/files/LST-PDAWD-2013.pdf
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304023617/http://sangeetnatak.gov.in/sna/fellowslist.htm to http://sangeetnatak.gov.in/sna/fellowslist.htm

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	:::Well the executive summary of my argument is that even when one article gets 9/10's of the attention, the costs of having ] point to a particular Ravi Shankar are probably greater than having it point to a disambiguation page. Double links have low cost over there lifetime, which I imagine would a fairly limited number of uses. --] 23:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	::Strange that you'd bring up as good examples of disambiguation two horrible examples of how disambig pages should really work. ] uses bold even though it shouldn't, and since there are only two actual articles with that name, could easily just move "Bob Grant (radio)" to "Bob Grant" and have it link to the actor at the top of the page, essentially encapsulating the entire disambig page in a single line of text at the top while allowing at least half of the readers to instantly read the page they want, and the other half to be no less inconvenienced than they would have been by a disambig page. Even more so, ], which doesn't even have an extra broken link for the disambig page to provide, should clearly have one of them (probably the author) at ], and link to the other at the top, and vice versa. Instant disambig! Having a ''whole page'' just for a pair of links is completely overdoing it when only two articles are possible options. And even more so, of course, when one page is vastly more likely than the other to be the one looked for, as is the case when one of the articles is simply named after the page (Ravi Shankar) and the other is merely ''similarly''-named, not identically. Then again, the vast majority of disambiguation pages, ironically enough, violate disambiguation style in some ways or others, so it's hard to find good role models... -] 22:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 01:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
	:::Well, to be honest, I don't care how it's done ... you guys should petition ] to revise the diambig guidelines then. I think Ravi Shankar should follow whatever those guidelines are. ] 22:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	:::::First, I think 'the powers that be' would want to know the consensus reached by the editors. Second, I think guidelines, in contradistinction to policy, are meant as suggestions rather than laws. If editors find that a particular guideline doesn't seem to provide the best results, I think the editors are free to set the guideline aside when appropriate, and to re-write the guideline in light of experience and a growth in understanding. Long and short, I think that the editors are "the powers that be" in this case. --] 22:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	::::Ravi Shankar, the musician, and Ravi Shankar, the guru, are ''identically'' named. ''Sri'' is an honorific, and the guru apparently merits two of them. ] 23:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:::::Yes, and there has been discussion of renaming the article Sri Sri Ravi Shankar , . --] 22:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://mha.nic.in/sites/upload_files/mha/files/LST-PDAWD-2013.pdf
			*Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/5rUTg6OvI?url=http://www.mpinfo.org/mpinfonew/hindi/award/kalidas.asp to http://www.mpinfo.org/mpinfonew/hindi/award/kalidas.asp

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	If you take a look at the "What links here" tool for each article, ] is linked to by , whereas ] is linked to by . However, in my personal opinion, unless the search is ridiculously common (even more so than the above mentioned ] example), along the lines of ], the disambiguation page should be the one to come up. The pages can be built to point to the most obvious article, but if you disambiguate it makes it easier for the overall search. -- ] 00:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	:So make a ] and link to both of them from there, and let the links to the musician be the default, since he is '''''by far''''' the most commonly-known. ]\|] 03:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 18:41, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
	::There already is a ]. The discussion is whether to keep it that way, and have a search for "Ravi Shankar" go directly to ] (the musician), or to have the search go to the disambiguation page. -- ] 03:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

			== "sitar maestro" ==
	:I did read the long explanation, and it did a fine job! Thank you.

			Is "sitar maestro" actually used as a title, and not just a description or part of an introduction? If not, the statement in the lede that those words often precede Shankar's name are puffery and should be rephrased to simply state that he is (or is regarded as) a maestro. ] (]) 00:11, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
	:*The guidelines at ] already state "well-known (indicated by a majority of links in existing articles)". Natalya indicates that the musician is by far the more well-known. So, the "Ravi Shankar" should link directly. And {{tl\|Otheruses}} should be used, without another extra link to the relatively unreferenced "Sri Sri Ravi Shankar".

			:That's a distinction without a difference. He's a maestro, he's regarded as a maestro. It would be puffery if he were a hack, which he's not. ] (]) 09:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
	:*However, remember that this is not set in stone! Someday in the future, the musician may not be the majority of links any longer. At that time, it's easy enough to move "Ravi Shankar (disambiguation)" to "Ravi Shankar" (making it a Generic topic page). OK?
	::--] 11:41, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

	=== Questions regarding a partial solution ===

	There seem to be mixed opinions on this topic. I would
	like to know opinions regarding whether it would be
	a good (or bad) thing for me to do the following.
	#move the current article to 'Ravi Shankar (musician)'
	#Leave a redirect (for the moment at least) from 'Ravi Shankar' to 'Ravi Shankar (musician)'
	#Finish changing the existing links to either 'Ravi Shankar (musician)' if appropriate, or to another page if appropriate.
	#Continue to add red-line links to the disambiguation page when an existing link was intended for an individual for which there is no existing article.
	Please share your opinions on my taking these steps. Please also note that I have come across 3 instances where existing links to 'Ravi Shankar' pointed to the wrong article. --] 22:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

	:I suggest you leave the page arrangement the way it is, and fix the three wrong links. Then move on to one of the thousand worse areas of Misplaced Pages than arrangement of disambig vs direct pages. For example, this article itself. I tried to fill in Shankar's early years a bit, but the article still has no description of how he advanced the art of sitar playing, or what he did that other players hadn't done. It doesn't make clear whether he's a major composer or not. It has no discography. The selection of works described seems suspiciously skewed towards Western idioms and collaborations, even after the Beatles involvement. All of these matters are more worthy of attention than futzing around with further page moves. ] 23:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

	::I appreciate that you would like my efforts to be utilized in the most effecient way. However, we are all different, and the edits that interest me might not be the edits that interest you and vice versa. Thus, I would appreciate your opinion on whether the changes that I propose would be beneficial or harmful to Misplaced Pages, without any reference to other things I might be doing. (On a side note, I did fix the links when I found them, but as I was interrupted after going through about half the links, I expect that there are more.) --] 23:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

	:::Sorry if I was snarky before. I appreciate that page arrangement is important, and I've done a few page moves in that regard myself. But in this case I think that any slight benefit that might acrue from a rearrangement is not worth the effort of changing all the links to here, and in a month or two someone else will come along and think the new arrangement violates WP guidelines and change it all back again. ] 23:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

	::::Your apology is welcome and appreciated. Unless you lead me to believe otherwise, I will understand your comment about "any slight benefit" to mean that you see no harm in what I propose, (other than wasted effort), and possibly a slight benefit. --] 00:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

	:::::Adding my two cents: I don't see any harm in what you propose, but I also don't see the need for it. It appears that there are only two articles with the name "Ravi Shankar" in the title, ] and ]. As others have already pointed out, in cases where there are only two possible pages that might need disambiguation, Misplaced Pages policy dictates that a separate dab page should ''not'' be used. So unless someone wants to write articles for the other two guys who are currently red-linked on ], the dab page is actually pretty useless, regardless of what it is called. I think that the current state of the articles is probably the best solution to the problem as currently constituted. ]...<small>]</small> 03:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

	I agree with BostonMA. Especially the part about adding red-links to the disambiguation page. I'm a big proponent of compiling links to future articles! The rest seems to follow the guidelines (as shown earlier).
	:--] 15:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

	:I think a fair amount of time has passed to allow editors to raise strong objections if they had such. I note that no such strong objections have been raised, so I will proceed along the lines above. --] 01:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

	===Related guideline (proposal)===
	Not so long ago someone started ] - maybe not a bad idea to see this discussion in the light of that ''guideline proposal'' too? --] 09:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

	== When did Ravi Shankar become an Indian-American? ==
	As far as I know, Ravi Shankar has never taken American citizenship. I think the person who added this article to the "Indian-American" Category was misled by the fact that he has at least one daughter (]) who ''is'' an Indian-American (born to an American mother). Therefore, I shall remove this article from the Category of "Indian-American". --] 12:47, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

	== More details on his books and discography? ==
	I've just added a new section on his books. Do u supposed i need to mention just more than the title and the year of publication (such as publisher, etc) ? Is there a better way of representing this list?

	Also, i've just added a major list of his discography. I think its too long. Recommend moving this to a seperate page (?).
	--] 00:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

	==Unmoved==
	Considering that ] was merely a redirect to ] this whole time abyway, this title is just simpler and more efficient. There are currently only two Ravi Shankar-named articles anyway, so just have Sri Sri and this one link to each other at the top of both pages and we even skip the confusing extra disambig-page hop. -] 23:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

	==Requested move==
	* ] — ] → ] – disambiguation between the musician and the guru ] 01:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

	:''Add '''Support''' or '''Oppose''' followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''

	* '''Support''' Having generic title and musician page greatly reduces the effort required to disambiguate -- links to generic title have not been checked, while links to (musician) have been checked. ] 01:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' — The musician is by far the better known of all these. The music director is better known simply as Ravi, and the guru is Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. The other two notables with this name do not even have articles as of yet. Anyone searching for ''Ravi Shankar'' will almost certainly be wanting to find an article on the musician. — ] 17:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
	::Hi, I agree with you that users will expect the musician more often than not. As the pages stood until yesterday, users were in fact redirected to '''Ravi Shankar (musician)''' when they typed in '''Ravi Shankar'''. That would seem to me to address the concern you raised, but perhaps it does not, or perhaps you have other concerns as well. Would you be willing to discuss this further? Thanks. ] 18:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
	:::You seem unfamiliar with Disambiguation style. No page on Misplaced Pages redirects to an identical phrase with added parenthetical specifiers (for example, if the George Bush presidents didn't have middle names, it would have no sense to make ] a redirect to ] rather than simply putting the contents of "George Bush (42nd president)" on "George Bush" and avoiding any need for a redirect); doing such solves absolutely no problems and causes quite a few problems. The only two viable possibilities are '''(1)''' to move ] to ] (which is what I thought the initial move was endorsing, and I'm pretty sure most other people thought that too), or (2) to put one of the Ravi Shankar articles on ] and link to the others (or to a disambig page) at the top of the page. Under no circumstances can "Ravi Shankar" currently be a redirect, so whichever option we choose, the situation this article was in when I unmoved it is unacceptable. Parenthetical specifiers should be used in article titles only when ''absolutely necessary''. My recommendation is to go with option 2 (which is the current one) rather than force a majority of searchers (the majority that will be looking for ''this'' Ravi Shankar) to jump through elaborate disambig hoops just to reach this article; the fewer disambig pages and redirects people are forced to wade through, the better. However, it may also be possible to make a valid case for option 1, which would follow disambiguation procedures, and even though I'd strongly disagree that such measures are necessary in this case, at least option 1 doesn't directly violate the disambiguation guidelines (not to mention common sense!), like the "] redirects to ]" situation did. -] 18:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

	===Discussion===
	:''Add any additional comments''

	* To avoid the need to rescan all of the links to Ravi Shankar whenever there is a disambiguation effort, it important to keep the links that have already been sifted through, separate from the links that have not yet been sifted through. Please read discussion in ]. ] 01:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

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Two Birthplaces?

Intro paragraph says he was born in Narail, which is in present-day Bangladesh, while in the Early Life section it says he was born in Benares, a city in India. I think the fact is that his father was from Narail, and the family was living in Benares at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.242.217.46 (talk) 17:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Pundit

The name should be Pundit Ravi Shankar, that is how he is known. There is hardly anybody who ever knew of him as just Ravi Hsnakar (There may be thousands of Ravi Shankar at any given time) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.251.14 (talk) 10:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

It's usually spelled Pandit and there's an explanation in this article in The Daily Telegraph. But I don't think honorary titles like this are generally used as part of the name. Given that this has been a Good Article, I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been carefully considered. Perhaps it's ok to use just in the article opening sentence and infobox, but not as the article title? Any views? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:39, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Anoushka--absurd statement

The article says: "After separating from Kamala Shastri in 1981, Anoushka Shankar was born to Shankar and Sukanya Rajan."
How could Anoushka Shankar have separated from anybody before she was born? Uporządnicki (talk) 19:17, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Now says "After Shankar separated from Kamala Shastri in 1981, Anoushka Shankar was born to Shankar and Sukanya Rajan", Anoushka's birth is given as 9th June 1981, if you are understandable trying to gloss over a little hanky-panky in the man's life, which is not relevant to his artistry only to a gossip mag , why not remove the whole statement altogether? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.206.106 (talk) 15:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

No, it was a grammar point. The way the statement was written, it said that Anoushka separated from Kamala Shastra before Anoushka was born. Of course it should have said Ravi separated from Kamala. But it didn't. It said Anoushka was born after ANOUSHKA separated from Kamala. Uporządnicki (talk) 13:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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"sitar maestro"

Is "sitar maestro" actually used as a title, and not just a description or part of an introduction? If not, the statement in the lede that those words often precede Shankar's name are puffery and should be rephrased to simply state that he is (or is regarded as) a maestro. 73.149.246.232 (talk) 00:11, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

That's a distinction without a difference. He's a maestro, he's regarded as a maestro. It would be puffery if he were a hack, which he's not. Binksternet (talk) 09:47, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

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