| Revision as of 19:24, 7 November 2014 editAlanscottwalker (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers74,682 edits →Career section issues: ce← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 22:05, 15 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,012,799 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] |
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{{Connected contributor (paid)|User1=WWB Too|U1-employer=Beutler Ink|U1-client=Touré}} |
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== redirecting to Touré == |
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Touré shouldn't automatically redirect here. There are too many other important people called Touré, including the former prime minister of Mali. |
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== Requested moves == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ]. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' I will move this article to the (journalist) DAB, but no objections to a second discussion on a potentially better one. Help on cleaning up the links would be appreciated. ] ]] 15:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC) |
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---- |
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* ] → {{no redirect|Touré (television personality)}} |
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* ] → {{no redirect|Touré}} |
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– The television figure is not the ]. Amongst others, users might be searching for ], the former president of Guinea, ], 'one of the African continent’s most internationally renowned musicians', ], the former president of Mali, ], the footballer who has played for Liverpool, Manchester City and Arsenal, ], the founder of the Wassoulou Empire, or ], the Manchester City footballer. ] (]) 23:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' ], yes very surprising occupant of a common surname slot. ] (]) 01:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom -- ] (]) 05:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' this man pretty obviously is not the primary topic over the presidents, historical figures, and the footballer! —] 06:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Hatnote with link to disambiguation page is linked for those seeking other names. Also, if it is moved, I don't agree that "television personality" should necessarily be the designation; "writer" would probably be more appropriate.--] (]) 17:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:*How about 'journalist' instead? That might be a little more accurate than just 'writer'. ] (]) 20:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:*I find it hard to believe the journalist/TV personality is the primary topic, by our usual definition, even though he goes by a mononym, against the political figures, several from prominent families of this name, and the famous footballer. If there were a TV host known by 'Anderson' in some country where it was an uncommon name, that wouldn't make him/her the main topic for the surname. —] 21:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - Hatnote is, I think, fine. If move passes, I say "Touré (journalist)" is the best choice. ] (]) 00:17, 30 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' to ''Touré (surname) → Touré''. I abstain in the discussion about the TV personality/writer/journalist. ] (]) 22:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''', but not to "Touré (television personality)". Instead, move to "Touré (journalist)" ("Touré (writer)" would be OK too, the guy's got four books, granting that at least one is a collection of essays). Just "Touré" rather than "Touré (surname)" is preferable for the disambig -- more flexibile (for instance, this person could not be listed at "Touré (surname)). ] (]) 05:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:*You have a point on "Touré" rather than "Touré (surname)." ] (]) 13:54, 1 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' "Touré (surname)" → "Touré" and '''support''' "Touré" to "Touré (''whatever consensus settles upon'')". ] (]) 00:31, 2 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' proposed name as not primary topic. What about ] instead? Some sources use it. --] (]) 04:44, 4 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' because this article is not the ]. Moving to Touré Neblett makes sense: it avoids choosing between television personality, writer and journalist. ] (]) 12:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:*If you look at the battle royale in the archives of this talkpage, you'll notice we went over the whole surname bit. There was a big argument about whether his surname should be mentioned at all. But the title of this page, whatever decided here, should stay "Touré" because the subject prefers to be known by his mononym (say, like "]"). ] (]) 17:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:::It should stay just "Touré" but not because of his preference but because that's his byline and how he's best known and most often referred to. ] (]) 20:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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::::If he is best known as his stage name (like ]), then move to Touré (something), where the something describes him (television personality/writer/journalist). However, if he is often known by his real name, then that should be used. I do not know what is most common here. ] (]) 22:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Just "Touré", I'm confident, unless there's been a large and rapid recent change. During the dustup here (only one or two years ago) it was only possible to find a couple of obscure references which even ''give'' his last name, which he does not give out and which he has tried to keep entirely secret. ] (]) 23:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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<hr /> |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a ]. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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== ''Career'' section issues == |
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Hello to anyone watching this page! I'm looking for some help in addressing various issues with the content of this article, particularly within the '']'' section. Up front, I would like to say that I'm here on behalf of Touré and, due to this financial conflict of interest, I will not make any direct edits to this article. |
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While there are several issues I'd ultimately like to address, first I'd like to get some input on the first paragraph of the '']'' section. Right now, this paragraph details criticism from conservative web publications ''The Daily Caller'' and ''The Blaze'' regarding the student publication started by Touré (''The Fire This Time'') as well as some related events while he was a student at Emory. In my view, ] has been given to these views, particularly considering media coverage of these topics was limited to just these two publications. |
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To break it down, here are the specific issues I see with the current wording: |
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*The first sentence currently reads "While a student at Emory University, Touré founded the school's black student newspaper, The Fire This Time, which has been criticized for being militantly anti-white." This makes it sound like ''The Fire This Time'' and Touré have received widespread criticism, which is not the case, only ''The Daily Caller'' has made such claims, which were then repeated in a post on ''The Blaze''. |
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*The current wording also says that the publication's articles "praised noted anti-Semites, black supremacists, and conspiracy theorists such as H. Rap Brown and Frances Cress Welsing, whom Touré invited to Emory's campus." I haven't been able to find any other sources mentioning the visit or saying that Touré had invited Welsing, nor any other critical coverage of ''The Fire This Time'''s interview with H. Rap Brown, nor any other specifics. |
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*The paragraph includes ''The Caller'''s criticism of Touré's statement in relation to an incident at Emory, where a black college student named Sabrina Collins had claimed to be the victim of racist vandalism in her dorm room, which was later said to be a hoax. Touré was not involved; he simply wrote about it in ''The Fire This Time''. |
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*Lastly, the only reporting here is from ''The Caller'', and its first bylined reporter is Charles C. Johnson, who has been frequently criticized in reliable sources for producing unreliable reporting (). Frankly, I would be very cautious about using this story in any way. |
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It's my view that much of the above detail does not belong in the article. It generally relates to things that happened while Touré was a student, well before his career was established. Regarding the general criticism, I'm more open to the idea of keeping a summary statement about this but I'm interested to hear what others think. At the very least, this should be tightened up and made clear the criticism originated with ''The Daily Caller''. It's worth noting that Touré and ''The Caller'' are at different ends of the political spectrum and the latter often writes critically of progressive media figures. |
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Below, I've offered an updated version of this paragraph for editors to review and consider as a basis for replacing the current section. You'll see that I have offered a potential summary of the criticism from ''The Daily Caller'', but otherwise removed the details listed above. This is just a suggested draft, so I'd be happy to discuss other ways the paragraph could be rewritten. |
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{{hidden|Suggested wording for ''The Fire This Time'' paragraph|content= While a student at ], Touré founded the student newspaper, ''The Fire This Time'' in 1990.<ref name="Emory09">{{cite web|author=Loftus, Mary J.|url=http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_MAGAZINE/2009/autumn/black-star.html|work=Emory Magazine|title= News makers|date=Autumn 2009|accessdate=25 April 2012}}</ref> In an interview with ''The Daily Caller'' in 2013, Touré said ''The Fire This Time'' had been "an important black voice on campus" and "a form of community building."<ref name="DailyCaller">{{cite web|author=Johnson, Charles C.; Girdusky, Ryan|title=MSNBC’s Touré founded militant anti-white student paper|url=http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/09/msnbcs-Touré-founded-militant-anti-white-student-paper/|publisher=] |date=April 9, 2013}}</ref><ref name=Yahoo!News>Ritz, Eric (April 9, 2013). . ].</ref> ''The Daily Caller'''s article on Touré and his college years was critical, claiming that ''The Fire This Time'' was a "militant" African-American publication.<ref name=DailyCaller/><ref name=Yahoo!News/>{{reflist-talk|close=1}}|headerstyle=background:#ccfddc}} |
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{{hidden|header=Markup|content=<nowiki>While a student at ], Touré founded the student newspaper, ''The Fire This Time'' in 1990.<ref name="Emory09">{{cite web|author=Loftus, Mary J.|url=http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_MAGAZINE/2009/autumn/black-star.html|work=Emory Magazine|title= News makers|date=Autumn 2009|accessdate=25 April 2012}}</ref> In an interview with ''The Daily Caller'' in 2013, Touré said ''The Fire This Time'' had been "an important black voice on campus" and "a form of community building."<ref name="DailyCaller">{{cite web|author=Johnson, Charles C.; Girdusky, Ryan|title=MSNBC’s Touré founded militant anti-white student paper|url=http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/09/msnbcs-Touré-founded-militant-anti-white-student-paper/|publisher=] |date=April 9, 2013}}</ref><ref name=Yahoo!News>Ritz, Eric (April 9, 2013). . ].</ref> ''The Daily Caller'''s article on Touré and his college years was critical, claiming that ''The Fire This Time'' was a "militant" African-American publication.<ref name=DailyCaller/><ref name=Yahoo!News/></nowiki>|headerstyle=background:#ccccff}} |
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Again, I'm looking to discuss the above issues and hopefully find a way to resolve them in the article. Cheers, ] (] · ]) 16:35, 30 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:Thanks to ], the paragraph has been edited to remove everything sourced to ''The Daily Caller''. I'm very happy with this outcome, so thank you very much! This request is now complete, but I will be returning soon to discuss one more issue and propose some general updates to the article. Cheers, ] (] · ]) 19:16, 31 October 2014 (UTC) |
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::I actually found ]'s edit too drastic. I think ]'s suggested text was quite pithy, fair, even-handed, and fine. So I have added it as suggested. I think the ''Daily Caller'' source and the Yahoo! source are fine. (PS, when all Misplaced Pages references to the ''Huffington Post'' are removed, I'll stand by a removal of all references to the ''Daily Caller''.) I agree with ] (and, presumably, Touré) that it was too harsh as written before this. I think the article in this section is fine as it stands. ] (]) 18:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:::You pinged me? I disagree that my edit was "drastic" see ], removal is the proper choice - and as your edit apparently did not restore the writing that I removed than it appears certain I did the right thing. I have not formulated an opinion on the new text you added, nor the source use for it. ] (]) 19:21, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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===Discussion of "controversies"=== |
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Hello again, following my last request, I would now like to turn to the second major issue that I can see in the ''Career section'', this time under the '']'' section. The main issue as I see it is that the majority of this section currently covers a few small "controversies" that could be summarized into one to two sentences. Right now, over one third of the section is dedicated to a discussing a single tweet by Touré that was taken out of context. A further one third covers two other events where Touré was involved in short-lived debates. |
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Similar to the coverage from ''The Daily Caller'', it seems like relatively minor events are being given undue weight within the article. In each case, while the individual event received some news coverage (mainly within publications that discuss the media) at the time, it is not an ongoing or major controversy. What do editors here think about reducing the second and third paragraphs of this section down to a short summary? |
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Here's a suggestion for what that might look like: |
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{{hidden|Suggested wording for summary|content= During Touré's career he has made several controversial statements including ones made on Twitter in response to tweets directed at him. In particular, Touré received criticism and news coverage for his debate with Piers Morgan in 2012 regarding an interview of ]'s brother,<ref name="Christopher12">{{cite web |url=http://www.mediaite.com/tv/piers-morgan-challenges-msnbcs-toure-to-debate-via-twitter-feud/ |title=Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud |author=Tommy Christopher |date=30 March 2012 |work=Mediaite |publisher= |accessdate=15 October 2014}}</ref><ref name="Samuels">{{cite news |title=Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It |author=Allison Samuels |url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/31/piers-morgan-vs-Touré-how-the-cnn-host-blew-it.html |work=The Daily Beast |date=31 March 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> a remark made on ''The Cycle'' about his view that Republican presidential nominee ] was engaging in racial coding,<ref name="Wemple12">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré apologizes for ‘niggerization’ remark |author=Erik Wemple |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/msnbcs-Touré-apologizes-for-niggerization-remark/2012/08/17/20938ca4-e89f-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html |work=] |date=17 August 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> and a response to a tweet that had compared the African American experience following slavery to the U.S. immigrant experience following ].<ref name="Chasmar14">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré says ‘power of whiteness’ benefited Holocaust survivors |author=Jessica Chasmar |url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/27/msnbcs-Touré-says-power-whiteness-benefitted-holoc/ |work=The Washington Times |date=27 May 2014 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref><ref>Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). . ].</ref>{{reflist-talk|close=1}}|headerstyle=background:#ccfddc}} |
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{{hidden|header=Markup|content=<nowiki>During Touré's career he has made several controversial statements including ones made on Twitter in response to tweets directed at him. In particular, Touré received criticism and news coverage for his debate with Piers Morgan in 2012 regarding an interview of ]'s brother,<ref name="Christopher12">{{cite web |url=http://www.mediaite.com/tv/piers-morgan-challenges-msnbcs-toure-to-debate-via-twitter-feud/ |title=Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud |author=Tommy Christopher |date=30 March 2012 |work=Mediaite |publisher= |accessdate=15 October 2014}}</ref><ref name="Samuels">{{cite news |title=Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It |author=Allison Samuels |url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/31/piers-morgan-vs-Touré-how-the-cnn-host-blew-it.html |work=The Daily Beast |date=31 March 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> a remark made on ''The Cycle'' about his view that Republican presidential nominee ] was engaging in racial coding,<ref name="Wemple12">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré apologizes for ‘niggerization’ remark |author=Erik Wemple |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/msnbcs-Touré-apologizes-for-niggerization-remark/2012/08/17/20938ca4-e89f-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html |work=] |date=17 August 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> and a response to a tweet that had compared the African American experience following slavery to the U.S. immigrant experience following ].<ref name="Chasmar14">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré says ‘power of whiteness’ benefited Holocaust survivors |author=Jessica Chasmar |url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/27/msnbcs-Touré-says-power-whiteness-benefitted-holoc/ |work=The Washington Times |date=27 May 2014 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref><ref>Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). . ].</ref></nowiki>|headerstyle=background:#ccccff}} |
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Does the above summary work? If not, I'm open to other options to address this section. Let me know what you think. Cheers, ] (] · ]) 22:25, 3 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:(I saw this mentioned at ]. <sup></sup> I supported leaving his "slave name" out of this article per his request a few years back.) |
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:I prefer the existing text, actually. Speaking as someone who knows almost nothing about the man (I live in Australia), I found those little vignettes quite informative. They give me an impression of his polemical style, and leave me thinking he's someone who can own up when he makes a gaffe. They kind of fill in something about his personality that a plain list of achievements and career moves can't. Perhaps there's something I'm not getting, though, that is apparent in the USA context. --] (] · ] · ]) 00:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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::I stand with ] here. ] (]) 18:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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== Archives? == |
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Where are the archives for this talk page? --] (] · ] · ]) 01:36, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:I found the archives and got them here. The links to them are posted above. ] (]) 18:44, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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