| Revision as of 18:45, 12 November 2014 editWWB Too (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,164 edits →Discussion of "controversies": Let's try this?← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 22:05, 15 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,012,797 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] |
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== redirecting to Touré == |
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Touré shouldn't automatically redirect here. There are too many other important people called Touré, including the former prime minister of Mali. |
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== Requested moves == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ]. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' I will move this article to the (journalist) DAB, but no objections to a second discussion on a potentially better one. Help on cleaning up the links would be appreciated. ] ]] 15:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC) |
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---- |
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* ] → {{no redirect|Touré (television personality)}} |
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* ] → {{no redirect|Touré}} |
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– The television figure is not the ]. Amongst others, users might be searching for ], the former president of Guinea, ], 'one of the African continent’s most internationally renowned musicians', ], the former president of Mali, ], the footballer who has played for Liverpool, Manchester City and Arsenal, ], the founder of the Wassoulou Empire, or ], the Manchester City footballer. ] (]) 23:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' ], yes very surprising occupant of a common surname slot. ] (]) 01:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom -- ] (]) 05:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' this man pretty obviously is not the primary topic over the presidents, historical figures, and the footballer! —] 06:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Hatnote with link to disambiguation page is linked for those seeking other names. Also, if it is moved, I don't agree that "television personality" should necessarily be the designation; "writer" would probably be more appropriate.--] (]) 17:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:*How about 'journalist' instead? That might be a little more accurate than just 'writer'. ] (]) 20:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC) |
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:*I find it hard to believe the journalist/TV personality is the primary topic, by our usual definition, even though he goes by a mononym, against the political figures, several from prominent families of this name, and the famous footballer. If there were a TV host known by 'Anderson' in some country where it was an uncommon name, that wouldn't make him/her the main topic for the surname. —] 21:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - Hatnote is, I think, fine. If move passes, I say "Touré (journalist)" is the best choice. ] (]) 00:17, 30 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' to ''Touré (surname) → Touré''. I abstain in the discussion about the TV personality/writer/journalist. ] (]) 22:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''', but not to "Touré (television personality)". Instead, move to "Touré (journalist)" ("Touré (writer)" would be OK too, the guy's got four books, granting that at least one is a collection of essays). Just "Touré" rather than "Touré (surname)" is preferable for the disambig -- more flexibile (for instance, this person could not be listed at "Touré (surname)). ] (]) 05:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:*You have a point on "Touré" rather than "Touré (surname)." ] (]) 13:54, 1 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' "Touré (surname)" → "Touré" and '''support''' "Touré" to "Touré (''whatever consensus settles upon'')". ] (]) 00:31, 2 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' proposed name as not primary topic. What about ] instead? Some sources use it. --] (]) 04:44, 4 October 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' because this article is not the ]. Moving to Touré Neblett makes sense: it avoids choosing between television personality, writer and journalist. ] (]) 12:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:*If you look at the battle royale in the archives of this talkpage, you'll notice we went over the whole surname bit. There was a big argument about whether his surname should be mentioned at all. But the title of this page, whatever decided here, should stay "Touré" because the subject prefers to be known by his mononym (say, like "]"). ] (]) 17:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:::It should stay just "Touré" but not because of his preference but because that's his byline and how he's best known and most often referred to. ] (]) 20:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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::::If he is best known as his stage name (like ]), then move to Touré (something), where the something describes him (television personality/writer/journalist). However, if he is often known by his real name, then that should be used. I do not know what is most common here. ] (]) 22:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Just "Touré", I'm confident, unless there's been a large and rapid recent change. During the dustup here (only one or two years ago) it was only possible to find a couple of obscure references which even ''give'' his last name, which he does not give out and which he has tried to keep entirely secret. ] (]) 23:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC) |
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<hr /> |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a ]. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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== ''Career'' section issues == |
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Hello to anyone watching this page! I'm looking for some help in addressing various issues with the content of this article, particularly within the '']'' section. Up front, I would like to say that I'm here on behalf of Touré and, due to this financial conflict of interest, I will not make any direct edits to this article. |
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While there are several issues I'd ultimately like to address, first I'd like to get some input on the first paragraph of the '']'' section. Right now, this paragraph details criticism from conservative web publications ''The Daily Caller'' and ''The Blaze'' regarding the student publication started by Touré (''The Fire This Time'') as well as some related events while he was a student at Emory. In my view, ] has been given to these views, particularly considering media coverage of these topics was limited to just these two publications. |
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To break it down, here are the specific issues I see with the current wording: |
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*The first sentence currently reads "While a student at Emory University, Touré founded the school's black student newspaper, The Fire This Time, which has been criticized for being militantly anti-white." This makes it sound like ''The Fire This Time'' and Touré have received widespread criticism, which is not the case, only ''The Daily Caller'' has made such claims, which were then repeated in a post on ''The Blaze''. |
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*The current wording also says that the publication's articles "praised noted anti-Semites, black supremacists, and conspiracy theorists such as H. Rap Brown and Frances Cress Welsing, whom Touré invited to Emory's campus." I haven't been able to find any other sources mentioning the visit or saying that Touré had invited Welsing, nor any other critical coverage of ''The Fire This Time'''s interview with H. Rap Brown, nor any other specifics. |
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*The paragraph includes ''The Caller'''s criticism of Touré's statement in relation to an incident at Emory, where a black college student named Sabrina Collins had claimed to be the victim of racist vandalism in her dorm room, which was later said to be a hoax. Touré was not involved; he simply wrote about it in ''The Fire This Time''. |
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*Lastly, the only reporting here is from ''The Caller'', and its first bylined reporter is Charles C. Johnson, who has been frequently criticized in reliable sources for producing unreliable reporting (). Frankly, I would be very cautious about using this story in any way. |
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It's my view that much of the above detail does not belong in the article. It generally relates to things that happened while Touré was a student, well before his career was established. Regarding the general criticism, I'm more open to the idea of keeping a summary statement about this but I'm interested to hear what others think. At the very least, this should be tightened up and made clear the criticism originated with ''The Daily Caller''. It's worth noting that Touré and ''The Caller'' are at different ends of the political spectrum and the latter often writes critically of progressive media figures. |
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Below, I've offered an updated version of this paragraph for editors to review and consider as a basis for replacing the current section. You'll see that I have offered a potential summary of the criticism from ''The Daily Caller'', but otherwise removed the details listed above. This is just a suggested draft, so I'd be happy to discuss other ways the paragraph could be rewritten. |
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{{hidden|Suggested wording for ''The Fire This Time'' paragraph|content= While a student at ], Touré founded the student newspaper, ''The Fire This Time'' in 1990.<ref name="Emory09">{{cite web|author=Loftus, Mary J.|url=http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_MAGAZINE/2009/autumn/black-star.html|work=Emory Magazine|title= News makers|date=Autumn 2009|accessdate=25 April 2012}}</ref> In an interview with ''The Daily Caller'' in 2013, Touré said ''The Fire This Time'' had been "an important black voice on campus" and "a form of community building."<ref name="DailyCaller">{{cite web|author=Johnson, Charles C.; Girdusky, Ryan|title=MSNBC’s Touré founded militant anti-white student paper|url=http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/09/msnbcs-Touré-founded-militant-anti-white-student-paper/|publisher=] |date=April 9, 2013}}</ref><ref name=Yahoo!News>Ritz, Eric (April 9, 2013). . ].</ref> ''The Daily Caller'''s article on Touré and his college years was critical, claiming that ''The Fire This Time'' was a "militant" African-American publication.<ref name=DailyCaller/><ref name=Yahoo!News/>{{reflist-talk|close=1}}|headerstyle=background:#ccfddc}} |
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{{hidden|header=Markup|content=<nowiki>While a student at ], Touré founded the student newspaper, ''The Fire This Time'' in 1990.<ref name="Emory09">{{cite web|author=Loftus, Mary J.|url=http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_MAGAZINE/2009/autumn/black-star.html|work=Emory Magazine|title= News makers|date=Autumn 2009|accessdate=25 April 2012}}</ref> In an interview with ''The Daily Caller'' in 2013, Touré said ''The Fire This Time'' had been "an important black voice on campus" and "a form of community building."<ref name="DailyCaller">{{cite web|author=Johnson, Charles C.; Girdusky, Ryan|title=MSNBC’s Touré founded militant anti-white student paper|url=http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/09/msnbcs-Touré-founded-militant-anti-white-student-paper/|publisher=] |date=April 9, 2013}}</ref><ref name=Yahoo!News>Ritz, Eric (April 9, 2013). . ].</ref> ''The Daily Caller'''s article on Touré and his college years was critical, claiming that ''The Fire This Time'' was a "militant" African-American publication.<ref name=DailyCaller/><ref name=Yahoo!News/></nowiki>|headerstyle=background:#ccccff}} |
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Again, I'm looking to discuss the above issues and hopefully find a way to resolve them in the article. Cheers, ] (] · ]) 16:35, 30 October 2014 (UTC) |
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:Thanks to ], the paragraph has been edited to remove everything sourced to ''The Daily Caller''. I'm very happy with this outcome, so thank you very much! This request is now complete, but I will be returning soon to discuss one more issue and propose some general updates to the article. Cheers, ] (] · ]) 19:16, 31 October 2014 (UTC) |
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::I actually found ]'s edit too drastic. I think ]'s suggested text was quite pithy, fair, even-handed, and fine. So I have added it as suggested. I think the ''Daily Caller'' source and the Yahoo! source are fine. (PS, when all Misplaced Pages references to the ''Huffington Post'' are removed, I'll stand by a removal of all references to the ''Daily Caller''.) I agree with ] (and, presumably, Touré) that it was too harsh as written before this. I think the article in this section is fine as it stands. ] (]) 18:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:::You pinged me? I disagree that my edit was "drastic" see ], removal is the proper choice - and as your edit apparently did not restore the writing that I removed than it appears certain I did the right thing. I have not formulated an opinion on the new text you added, nor the source use for it. ] (]) 19:21, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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::::Hi TuckerResearch and Alanscottwalker. Since there's disagreement between you as to what, if anything, should be included regarding the coverage from ''The Daily Caller'', I wanted to clarify that I am in favor of removing all of the information because of the unreliability of the source. As I mentioned above, the only reporting is by a writer who has specifically been criticized in the past for his unreliable and inaccurate reporting. The summary I offered was a potential compromise if editors feel that the information absolutely has to stay. Does that change your feeling on including the wording about ''The Fire This Time'' sourced to ''The Daily Caller'', TuckerResearch? ] (] · ]) 15:28, 10 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Howdy! (And thank you for being so amicable an editor!) I think your first suggested edit was quite reasonable and even-handed. I think that Alanscottwalker's removal of everything was too much. Now that I've put in your reasonable suggested edit, you want a more drastic edit?! As mentioned above I don't think a sourced mention (even if it is from a right-wing website), if it doesn't place undue wait, is alright. As it was originally written, and I think you were right, it ''did'' place undue wait. As written now, I think it's fine. If anyone else wants to comment, we can hash it out. Full disclosure, I'm a conservative and not Touré's biggest fan when it comes to politics (his music writing is pretty good, though), but I'd like to think I'm giving him a fair shake here on Misplaced Pages. I don't think his article should be one long list of attacks and screeds against him, but I also don't think it should be scrubbed of all information he finds odious. (I think it borders on ], and we must find a way to balance ], ], and ].) I consider that unfair to Misplaced Pages readers of all political stripes. I think we can best be helped by further comments from editors (and I think there are several who watch and/or lurk on this page). '''Comments please!''' ] (]) 02:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::Hi again, TuckerResearch, thanks for the reply explaining your thinking on this issue, and volunteering your personal views as well. Looking back I see that my initial request wasn't clear, but it was my intention to first suggest that the material to be removed entirely—as ] did—and only second to offer the proposed summary as a compromise if editors felt the mention did have to stay in the article. |
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::::::Below I see you've compared ''The Daily Caller'' with ''The Daily Beast'' (a source used elsewhere in the article). It is not ''The Caller'' I object to as a source ''per se'', but the unreliability of this particular author, per the explanation above. (Most relevant, this writer has previously been .) |
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::::::Hence my preference to see this information cut entirely. I think it's very important for this article to provide relevant career information. Touré having founded and edited this paper certainly counts. A writer for ''The Caller'' having an opinion about this paper, however, is not a necessary part of Touré's biography. What do you think? Cheers, ] (] · ]) 18:43, 11 November 2014 (UTC) |
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===Discussion of "controversies"=== |
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Hello again, following my last request, I would now like to turn to the second major issue that I can see in the ''Career section'', this time under the '']'' section. The main issue as I see it is that the majority of this section currently covers a few small "controversies" that could be summarized into one to two sentences. Right now, over one third of the section is dedicated to a discussing a single tweet by Touré that was taken out of context. A further one third covers two other events where Touré was involved in short-lived debates. |
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Similar to the coverage from ''The Daily Caller'', it seems like relatively minor events are being given undue weight within the article. In each case, while the individual event received some news coverage (mainly within publications that discuss the media) at the time, it is not an ongoing or major controversy. What do editors here think about reducing the second and third paragraphs of this section down to a short summary? |
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Here's a suggestion for what that might look like: |
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{{hidden|Suggested wording for summary|content= During Touré's career he has made several controversial statements including ones made on Twitter in response to tweets directed at him. In particular, Touré received criticism and news coverage for his debate with Piers Morgan in 2012 regarding an interview of ]'s brother,<ref name="Christopher12">{{cite web |url=http://www.mediaite.com/tv/piers-morgan-challenges-msnbcs-toure-to-debate-via-twitter-feud/ |title=Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud |author=Tommy Christopher |date=30 March 2012 |work=Mediaite |publisher= |accessdate=15 October 2014}}</ref><ref name="Samuels">{{cite news |title=Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It |author=Allison Samuels |url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/31/piers-morgan-vs-Touré-how-the-cnn-host-blew-it.html |work=The Daily Beast |date=31 March 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> a remark made on ''The Cycle'' about his view that Republican presidential nominee ] was engaging in racial coding,<ref name="Wemple12">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré apologizes for ‘niggerization’ remark |author=Erik Wemple |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/msnbcs-Touré-apologizes-for-niggerization-remark/2012/08/17/20938ca4-e89f-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html |work=] |date=17 August 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> and a response to a tweet that had compared the African American experience following slavery to the U.S. immigrant experience following ].<ref name="Chasmar14">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré says ‘power of whiteness’ benefited Holocaust survivors |author=Jessica Chasmar |url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/27/msnbcs-Touré-says-power-whiteness-benefitted-holoc/ |work=The Washington Times |date=27 May 2014 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref><ref>Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). . ].</ref>{{reflist-talk|close=1}}|headerstyle=background:#ccfddc}} |
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{{hidden|header=Markup|content=<nowiki>During Touré's career he has made several controversial statements including ones made on Twitter in response to tweets directed at him. In particular, Touré received criticism and news coverage for his debate with Piers Morgan in 2012 regarding an interview of ]'s brother,<ref name="Christopher12">{{cite web |url=http://www.mediaite.com/tv/piers-morgan-challenges-msnbcs-toure-to-debate-via-twitter-feud/ |title=Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud |author=Tommy Christopher |date=30 March 2012 |work=Mediaite |publisher= |accessdate=15 October 2014}}</ref><ref name="Samuels">{{cite news |title=Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It |author=Allison Samuels |url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/31/piers-morgan-vs-Touré-how-the-cnn-host-blew-it.html |work=The Daily Beast |date=31 March 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> a remark made on ''The Cycle'' about his view that Republican presidential nominee ] was engaging in racial coding,<ref name="Wemple12">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré apologizes for ‘niggerization’ remark |author=Erik Wemple |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/msnbcs-Touré-apologizes-for-niggerization-remark/2012/08/17/20938ca4-e89f-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html |work=] |date=17 August 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> and a response to a tweet that had compared the African American experience following slavery to the U.S. immigrant experience following ].<ref name="Chasmar14">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré says ‘power of whiteness’ benefited Holocaust survivors |author=Jessica Chasmar |url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/27/msnbcs-Touré-says-power-whiteness-benefitted-holoc/ |work=The Washington Times |date=27 May 2014 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref><ref>Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). . ].</ref></nowiki>|headerstyle=background:#ccccff}} |
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Does the above summary work? If not, I'm open to other options to address this section. Let me know what you think. Cheers, ] (] · ]) 22:25, 3 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:(I saw this mentioned at ]. <sup></sup> I supported leaving his "slave name" out of this article per his request a few years back.) |
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:I prefer the existing text, actually. Speaking as someone who knows almost nothing about the man (I live in Australia), I found those little vignettes quite informative. They give me an impression of his polemical style, and leave me thinking he's someone who can own up when he makes a gaffe. They kind of fill in something about his personality that a plain list of achievements and career moves can't. Perhaps there's something I'm not getting, though, that is apparent in the USA context. --] (] · ] · ]) 00:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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::I stand with ] here. ] (]) 18:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:::I understand why you both prefer there being this information in the article, but it's simply too much detail on these blink-and-you'll-miss-it events versus the coverage of the rest of his career. Currently the latter is described concisely, whereas these "controversies" are given considerably more space. Altogether the amount of detail on these events seems clearly ], and the point by point description of them surely goes against the spirit of ]. Unlike the information from ''The Daily Caller'', I'm not saying that the details should be removed entirely, but instead summarized. The wording I suggested above is a starting point and I'd be open to suggestions for an alternative. ] (] · ]) 15:32, 10 November 2014 (UTC) |
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::::I'm open to some editing, some concision, but I think your suggested edit here removes too much info and detail. I don't think as it stands it goes against ] to mention the exact words Touré used. I also think, and I mean this with all due respect, that the sentence: "During Touré's career he has made several controversial statements including ones made on Twitter in response to tweets directed at him" are weasel words (]). (And, on my own personal soapbox here, to me it is just as bad to use a story from ''The Daily Beast'' as ''The Daily Caller''. One is liberal , one is conservative . I'm an inclusionist: the more information the better on Misplaced Pages, let the reader decide.) Might I suggest the following, and let's see what everyone thinks, and I welcome your input: |
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{{hidden|Suggested wording for summary|content= In March 2012, Touré criticized ]'s interview of Robert Zimmerman regarding his brother ]'s ] on Morgan's ] talk show, '']''.<ref>Christopher, Tommy (March 30, 2012). . '']''.</ref><ref>Christopher, Tommy (March 30, 2012). . ''Mediaite''.</ref><ref>Stableford, Dylan (Apr 1, 2012). . ].</ref> In August 2012, on ''The Cycle'', Touré caused a controversy by stating that by calling President ] "angry," Republican presidential nominee ] was engaging in the "niggerization" of the president. He apologized for using the word the next day.<ref name="Wemple">{{cite news | first = Erik | last = Wemple | authorlink = Erik Wemple | title = MSNBC's Touré apologizes for ‘niggerization’ remark | date = 17 Aug 2012 | url = http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/msnbcs-toure-apologizes-for-niggerization-remark/2012/08/17/20938ca4-e89f-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html | work = The Washington Post | accessdate = 2012-09-21}}</ref> |
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On May 23, 2014, Touré suggested that Jews survived the Holocaust thanks to "the power of whiteness." Touré was criticized by the ], whose spokesperson Efraim Zuroff accused Touré of anti-Semitism and reverse racism.<ref>Chasmar, Jessica (May 27, 2014). . '']''.</ref> Touré apologized on May 27, saying, "Late last week, I foolishly got involved in a twitter exchange regarding an article about reparations. It was a dumb idea by me to debate serious and nuanced topics in 140 characters or less. In an attempt to comment on racism in post World War II America, I used a shorthand that was insensitive and wrong. I am very sorry and will make sure this doesn't happen again."<ref>Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). . ].</ref>{{reflist-talk|close=1}}|headerstyle=background:#ccfddc}} |
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{{hidden|header=Markup|content=<nowiki>In March 2012, Touré criticized ]'s interview of Robert Zimmerman regarding his brother ]'s ] on Morgan's ] talk show, '']''.<ref>Christopher, Tommy (March 30, 2012). . '']''.</ref><ref>Christopher, Tommy (March 30, 2012). . ''Mediaite''.</ref><ref>Stableford, Dylan (Apr 1, 2012). . ].</ref> In August 2012, on ''The Cycle'', Touré caused a controversy by stating that by calling President ] "angry," Republican presidential nominee ] was engaging in the "niggerization" of the president. He apologized for using the word the next day.<ref name="Wemple">{{cite news | first = Erik | last = Wemple | authorlink = Erik Wemple | title = MSNBC's Touré apologizes for ‘niggerization’ remark | date = 17 Aug 2012 | url = http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/msnbcs-toure-apologizes-for-niggerization-remark/2012/08/17/20938ca4-e89f-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html | work = The Washington Post | accessdate = 2012-09-21}}</ref> |
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On May 23, 2014, Touré suggested that Jews survived the Holocaust thanks to "the power of whiteness." Touré was criticized by the ], whose spokesperson Efraim Zuroff accused Touré of anti-Semitism and reverse racism.<ref>Chasmar, Jessica (May 27, 2014). . '']''.</ref> Touré apologized on May 27, saying, "Late last week, I foolishly got involved in a twitter exchange regarding an article about reparations. It was a dumb idea by me to debate serious and nuanced topics in 140 characters or less. In an attempt to comment on racism in post World War II America, I used a shorthand that was insensitive and wrong. I am very sorry and will make sure this doesn't happen again."<ref>Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). . ].</ref></nowiki>|headerstyle=background:#ccccff}} |
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::::I know it's not ''much'' of a reduction, but I think it's better than your suggestion. What do our fellow editors think? |
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::::P.S. - I'd like to see ''more'' comments and reviews of his writing career ADDED to the article, to balance out the television stuff. How can we do that!?!? ] (]) 02:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::Thanks, I understand your concerns with my draft and appreciate your comments. I have now taken a close look at your suggestion, but I still disagree with keeping so much detail. Meanwhile, I totally get that you and ] find this interesting, but I submit that ''interestingness'' is not the proper threshold for inclusion. A biographical article should provide a concise overview of a notable person's career, and needn't go in-depth on a given sub-topic just because sources exist. That Touré has had contentious words with other media personalities is noteworthy; the particulars of each incident is not. |
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:::::Consider, the issue here is really a larger one that impacts Misplaced Pages—the "if it bleeds, it leads" aspect of news coverage. Should we let the content of this encyclopedia be so heavily influenced by the preoccupations of a pageview-driven media culture that turns brief Twitter exchanges into "controversies"? I suggest that we do not, and that we take the long view instead: this should be a broad overview of his career. (Related to which, I must respectfully disagree that my version violates ]. Classic cases of weasel words are "some people say" and "research has shown". Rather, I chose words that broadly described the events.) |
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:::::I am certainly in favor of including more information about other aspects of his career, for example, more can be said about the books he has written. However, even with that information added, this section would still be ] toward details of minor incidents. Regardless of the wording we eventually agree upon, I believe we should be mindful of limiting detail. Readers who want to know more can always follow the citations. ] (] · ]) 18:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::], it's not just "interesting", it's informative - it tells me something about the subject's political stance, whom he stands against, (and, as I said) his polemical style and his ability to acknowledge when he's gone too far. If your concern is that it's unduly negative, from this distance it doesn't look unduly negative - it's just the argy-bargy that politically engaged writers do. From here, that's how it looks. |
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::::::All that said, though, it's a pretty slim and fragmentary biography. A more complete, better-written piece may well convey what the disputed segments convey without needing to go into detail - or even mention the incidents - but that will depend on good sources doing the same. |
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::::::(The problem here - as with most of our biographies - is that the article is cobbled together based on primary sources, mostly news reports and journalistic commentary. In our other most sensitive field, medicine, our articles are based on secondary (peer-reviewed overviews by experts) and tertiary (graduate-level textbooks, other encyclopedias, etc.) sources, so we can take our lead on what/how to report from those expert overviews. Misplaced Pages should slash its "biography of living persons" offering back to only those subjects who have been well-covered in independent, reliable biographies. Until then, this.) --] (] · ] · ]) 20:00, 11 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::I think a summary could be just as informative, and I don't think this level of detail is necessary to describe his polemical style—at this point I think it's very nearly a ] (minus the bullets). Now, I realize I'm swimming upstream here, and I do have other points to make, so I don't want to wear out either of you with an interminable argument. Indeed, I appreciate you continuing to discuss the matter. I want to try another version of the wording, aiming to find a middle ground between what I and TuckerResearch had proposed. I should have another version of compromise wording to share tomorrow. Best, ] (] · ]) 22:15, 11 November 2014 (UTC) |
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{{outdent|7}} |
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Hi again ] and ]. I've thought a bit further about my problems with these two paragraphs. It's actually not just that they are too long, though the second paragraph is, definitely. Additionally, the first one doesn't really explain what was going on in the Piers Morgan debate, while the circumstances of the Romney situation is difficult to follow (i.e. "caused a controversy by stating that by calling..."). With that in mind, here's another version for consideration. I have aimed to: |
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*Include some explanation for the basis of Touré's dispute with Piers Morgan |
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*Moving mentions of Mitt Romney and the phrase "racial coding" to earlier in the sentence, while moving use of the n-word back, putting it in full context |
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*Explaining circumstances in which Touré used the phrase "power of whiteness", and quoting just the key part of his apology |
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Full text, and markup: |
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{{hidden|WWB Too suggestion v2 |content= |
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Touré criticized and debated with ] over the latter's March 2012 interview with ]'s brother, particularly over what Touré saw as Morgan's lack of response to Robert Zimmerman's problematic replies.<ref name="Samuels">{{cite news |title=Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It |author=Allison Samuels |url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/31/piers-morgan-vs-Touré-how-the-cnn-host-blew-it.html |work=The Daily Beast |date=31 March 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref><ref name="Christopher12">{{cite web |url=http://www.mediaite.com/tv/piers-morgan-challenges-msnbcs-toure-to-debate-via-twitter-feud/ |title=Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud |author=Tommy Christopher |date=30 March 2012 |work=Mediaite |publisher= |accessdate=15 October 2014}}</ref><ref name="Samuels"/> In August 2012, as part of a discussion on ''The Cycle'', Touré said that Republican presidential nominee ] engaged in racial coding by calling President ] "angry", and referred to this as "niggerization". He apologized for using the word the next day.<ref name="Wemple12">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré apologizes for ‘niggerization’ remark |author=Erik Wemple |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/msnbcs-Touré-apologizes-for-niggerization-remark/2012/08/17/20938ca4-e89f-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html |work=] |date=17 August 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> |
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In May 2014, Touré was criticized for his response to a tweet comparing the African American experience following slavery to the U.S. immigrant experience following World War II. A blogger from the website ''Yo, Dat's Racis'!!'' tweeted at Touré, "My family survived a concentration camp, came to the US w/ nothing, LEGALLY, and made it work" and Touré replied, "the power of whiteness". This drew criticism from the ].<ref name="Chasmar14">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré says ‘power of whiteness’ benefited Holocaust survivors |author=Jessica Chasmar |url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/27/msnbcs-Touré-says-power-whiteness-benefitted-holoc/ |work=The Washington Times |date=27 May 2014 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> Touré apologized for his comment, saying he had "used a shorthand that was insensitive and wrong".<ref>Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). . ].</ref>{{reflist-talk|close=1}}|headerstyle=background:#ccfddc}} |
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{{hidden|header=Markup|content=<nowiki>Touré criticized and debated with ] over the latter's March 2012 interview with ]'s brother, particularly over what Touré saw as Morgan's lack of response to Robert Zimmerman's problematic replies.<ref name="Samuels">{{cite news |title=Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It |author=Allison Samuels |url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/31/piers-morgan-vs-Touré-how-the-cnn-host-blew-it.html |work=The Daily Beast |date=31 March 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref><ref name="Christopher12">{{cite web |url=http://www.mediaite.com/tv/piers-morgan-challenges-msnbcs-toure-to-debate-via-twitter-feud/ |title=Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud |author=Tommy Christopher |date=30 March 2012 |work=Mediaite |publisher= |accessdate=15 October 2014}}</ref><ref name="Samuels"/> In August 2012, as part of a discussion on ''The Cycle'', Touré said that Republican presidential nominee ] engaged in racial coding by calling President ] "angry", and referred to this as "niggerization". He apologized for using the word the next day.<ref name="Wemple12">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré apologizes for ‘niggerization’ remark |author=Erik Wemple |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/msnbcs-Touré-apologizes-for-niggerization-remark/2012/08/17/20938ca4-e89f-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html |work=] |date=17 August 2012 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> |
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In May 2014, Touré was criticized for his response to a tweet comparing the African American experience following slavery to the U.S. immigrant experience following World War II. A blogger from the website ''Yo, Dat's Racis'!!'' tweeted at Touré, "My family survived a concentration camp, came to the US w/ nothing, LEGALLY, and made it work" and Touré replied, "the power of whiteness". This drew criticism from the ].<ref name="Chasmar14">{{cite news |title=MSNBC’s Touré says ‘power of whiteness’ benefited Holocaust survivors |author=Jessica Chasmar |url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/27/msnbcs-Touré-says-power-whiteness-benefitted-holoc/ |work=The Washington Times |date=27 May 2014 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> Touré apologized for his comment, saying he had "used a shorthand that was insensitive and wrong".<ref>Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). . ].</ref></nowiki>|headerstyle=background:#ccccff}} |
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I still think this is rather more than is really necessary—the Morgan debate especially seems not that interesting—but so long as there is support to retain this level of detail, I think the version I've offered is both more efficient and more informative. What do either of you think? ] (] · ]) 18:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC) |
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== Archives? == |
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Where are the archives for this talk page? --] (] · ] · ]) 01:36, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:I found the archives and got them here. The links to them are posted above. ] (]) 18:44, 7 November 2014 (UTC) |
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