| Revision as of 02:48, 21 June 2015 editAverysoda (talk | contribs)1,260 edits →RFC : Should the antisemitism bit be mentioned in the lede← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 23:15, 3 August 2024 edit undoSadko (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers81,686 edits OneClickArchived "External links modified" to Talk:Carlos Latuff/Archive 4 | ||
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| ==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment== | |||
| {{Auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I|age=90|small=no|dounreplied=yes}} | |||
| ] This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ]. | |||
| == Original Research == | |||
| Huge segments of this article are interpretations of Latuff's art by editors (referenced to primary sources linking to Latuff's art). The interpretations are often negative and followed by labeling the cartoonist as "anti-American" or "antisemitic". This seems like a clear violation of both OR and BLP. I propose we remove these. Also the text contains a large volume claims of antisemitism by people who are not notable. Are these not against BLP and NOTE? ] (]) 23:49, 6 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| : You are correct. // ] (]) | |||
| :: Someone should correct it, tbh. When it comes to NPOV, this article is somewhat of a "joke". ] (]) 20:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | :: |
||
| == POV == | |||
| Also, when it says he depicts characters like former brazilian president Lula as either a monster or a nazi, in the same level he depicts Bush or Blair - this is simply not true. His criticism about Lula is of a different nature. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:44, 7 May 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| Guys, this article is not balanced at all. Reading it makes it seem like he is almost a self-professed Jew hater, which I don't think is quite accurate. ] (]) 19:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, you sound like an extremely naive ultra-leftist. This article is indeed biased, but for the opposite reason: it makes him seem like he is only anti-Israel, but the truth is that he is extremely anti-Semitic and advocates the genocide of Jews from the Land of Israel. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| {{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 16:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::Latuff has never attacked the Jews as a people, nor has he advocated "genocide" or even reversal of Jewish settlement since 1948 outside of the current occupied territories. Inserting these erroneous views into an article is a violation of NPOV as well as BLP. I would agree with Pikolas that the article as it stands is barely acceptable on these grounds anyway. ] (]) 06:01, 13 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Excessive external links == | |||
| We now have five links in the external links section. As per ], this is excessive. See ]: {{tq|Normally, only one official link is included. If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. However, Misplaced Pages does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website. Misplaced Pages does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says.}} Can we choose which one or two to include and delete the others? | |||
| ::: I agree with ]. This article is not balanced at all, and you do not need to be a "naive ultra-leftist" to see that. The only requirement is that you are not a party to the dispute or a person with strong opinions regarding the issue at hand. For the articles development, outbursts like "naive ultra-leftist" should be avoided. However, I guess all can agree on that such a statement says more about the political bias of the "proclamer". Regards, ] (]) 15:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :A Google search yields this article as the first result at the twitter page as the second, so I guess it is the most popular official link. ]]] 20:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Cuckolding fetish == | |||
| ::::I don't know about whether you guys are "extremely naive ultra-leftists" or not, but the guy is clearly a vicious antisemite whose cartoons wouldn't be out of place in the ]. It might help if you guys read WP's articles on ], ], and ]. Cheers. ] (]) 08:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Before anyone revert my edit, he actually has many cartoons about this topic. | |||
| :::::Not everyone criticizing Isreal is anti-semitic. Latuff is sometimes a bit over the top with his cartoons but nothing that would justify such a classification. --] (]) 08:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/842577690322501632 | |||
| ==Image reinforcing bias== | |||
| I know Latuff authored ], however, the article is already very biased towards his accusations of antisemitism (in violation of ]), and that cartoon only reinforces that bias. In my opinion we should use a less controversial image, like ] (which also serves to illustrate better his themes, i.e. the Palestinian conflict). Let's please reach some sort of consensus before engaging in fruitless edit wars. ] (]) 06:54, 17 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/842577690322501632 | |||
| :Well, let's face it: a) it was a drawing by Latuff, b) Latuff ''IS'' controversial for drawings like these and c)he is more known for being anti-Israel than being pro-Palestine. | |||
| :To give some evidence: when I search “Latuff Palestine” on Google, I get 225.000 results. However, if I search “Latuff Israel”, I get 413.000 results. Thus, your idea of Latuff as a non-controversial artist of Palestinian children is quite wrong. I’m afraid you are violating the ]-rule this way. Regards, ] (]) 07:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| etc <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::To be clear, my reasoning is not emotional on this topic, I am neither a Jew nor an Arab, so justdontlikeit (which is not a rule, but an essay) doesn't apply to my argument, which is essentially rational. Also, your third point is questionable. Where is he better known as anti-Israel? Anglophone media, for sure, as Portuguese media doesn't portray him as an antisemite at all. That's bias, uncompatible with an encyclopedia that purports to be universal. Google searching isn't exactly science either. | |||
| ⚫ | :That's ] or borders vandalism --] (]) 09:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC) | ||
| ::All in all, what I mean to say is that 1) hell yes, he's controversial 2) yes, he did draw up polemic cartoons 3) from an objetive perspective, the cartoon serves to illustrate his "controversialness". ''However'', the article is already pretty biased, and on a subjective level, the image only reinforces that view on the reader. ] (]) 17:00, 18 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Now I’ve linked an academic article about this. It is not original research anymore. :-) ] (]) 18:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::this ref is worth nothing as your claim is not supported + its in a foreign language without translation. --] (]) 19:33, 10 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} Non english sources are allowed, but it is in bounds to ask for a translation of the relevant portion. ]. {{u|Azuizo}} Please provide a quote of the relevant section in both the original language and English. ] (]) 23:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| : I find it incredibly racist to say that Portuguese is a “foreign” language. ] (]) 20:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::Just like you, I’m not jewish or Arabic. However, I fail to see how the quality of someone’s opinion on this article needs to be based on ethnicity. Having said that, it is preferable to have a picture in an article that supports it. As you are saying above, the Gaza Boat –image reinforces the article. And that is what images should do in an encyclopedic article. | |||
| ::you do know this ''is'' the ''English'' wiki right? ] (]) 21:35, 31 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::As for the google-search: whether you use the English “Palestine” or the Portugese “Palestina” in the search: the number of results stay the same. So much for being universal. If you find some ] which proves otherwise, I’ll be happy to read it. | |||
| :::Finally: if you think that the article is biased… well, nobody stops you from editing it in a way that you consider to be better. But then again, since we agree that he ''is'' controversial, I doubt my proposed image will be out of place. Regards,] (]) 10:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion == | |||
| It is undisputed that the cartoon is drawn by Latuff, and that he is well known for such drawings. If the implications of those facts are unflattering to Latuff, then perhaps he should rethink what he draws, but it is not a blp violation to show latuff's work on latuff's article. Both images are appropriately licensed. Use them both, but there is certainly no policy based reason to exclude the ship image. (Consensus could certainly choose to exclude it, but thus far there does not seem to be such). ] (]) 14:34, 27 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: | |||
| :Context is important. If the article insinuates that he's antisemitic, then displaying images out of context could be used to reinforce these accusations. I'd rather see some kind of critical reception and sourced commentary on his work, rather than just throwing a bunch of controversial, politically incorrect images on the page and guiding readers to a certain viewpoint. ] (]) 01:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2019-07-02T00:51:29.067344 | UsElections Obama Latuff.png --> | |||
| *I don't see a real problem with the image in question. It appears to be representative of the artist's work, and it doesn't look at all anti-Semitic—just anti-Israel. There's certainly no BLP violation involved. And personally, I'm not a fan of the Bombman.gif image. Maybe the broken English was intentional, but it doesn't reflect particularly well on him either way. --] (]) 18:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 00:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::The RfC is over for two weeks, and I think that the consensus is more on my side for reinserting the picture. Moreover, the article isn't edited in such a way that the boat-image would be out of place by now. I think it is safe to put the boat-picture back. Regards.] (]) 20:26, 4 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: The octopus is a traditional symbol in anti-Semitic literature; see ] and ] for a couple examples. talks about the octopus's negative connotations even in contexts distant from the Jews.--] (]) 20:49, 17 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I certainly don't disagree that the octopus has antisemetic overtones. Not sure what your argument was (include or don't include?) Certainly latuff has been acused of anti-semitism, and his use of traditional anti-semetic imagery is relevant to the sources that are discussing such allegations. ] (]) 20:57, 17 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Stance on Russia-Ukraine war == | |||
| == The Predictable and Tired Old "Alleged Anti-Semitism" Section == | |||
| The article clearly lacks any mentions of pro-russian sentiment shared by the subject. | |||
| Anytime you read an article in Misplaced Pages about someone sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, there is always a 'Alleged Anti-Semitism' section, which repeats the same tired and generally false slanders against whoever the article is about. In this piece, as usual, it's just a propaganda technique by the pro-Israel side, with pretty thin evidence. I vote we just remove the whole section, or at least cut it down to a couple of pro-and anti-sentences, without a subhead. ] (]) 17:09, 28 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
| Since 2014 he made several caricatures depicting Ukrainians in a dehumanizing way, | |||
| *I agree wholeheartedly with your argument, but as you can see in this talk page, even raising concerns about the flagrant POV can lead to heated discussions. I would suggest expanding other sections to reduce the weight of the accusations against him, which are currently disproportionately large in the article. ] (]) 22:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
| like this: | |||
| :If you don't see how depicting Jews as inhuman monsters who drink the blood of Palestinian babies and wear Nazi uniforms is anti-semitic you are either in denial or have no idea what anti-semitism is.] (]) 16:25, 7 November 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :It really doesn't matter if the accusation is right or wrong The accusation (and counterarguments) have been discussed in many reliable sources and are certainly a notable part of Latuff's career and reputation. It falls very clearly under ] ] (]) 17:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :: And ] then? // ] (]) | |||
| https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1504505076290891778 | |||
| :So ] has got a point in that the section in question further detracts from the already pretty low quality of this article. So I've just fucking got rid of it. If any of you ]] don't like it, then do a proper job of putting together a semi-coherent section that doesn't read like it's been blurted out by a spoilt prat in a hissy fit. | |||
| https://ms-my.facebook.com/internationalriot/photos/ukraine-antimaidan-euromaidanfrom-latuff-brasil/671544492901910/ | |||
| I, as a Ukrainian, find it offensive | |||
| We have a detailed section on allegations of antisemitism, sourced to high quality sources (Stephen Roth Institute, Kotek, AKdH) . The lead should summarize the article, and include mention of this, with a statement the Latuff himself disputes the claim. There is no BLP issue here. ] (]) 00:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :These are rotten activist sources, who generally find *anyone* critical of Israel "anti-semitic". At the same time, we know that A: the finances activist sources are often murky, B: Israel is actively supporting pro-Israeli "Hasbara" editing. Make you own conclusion. At the same time, independent Jewish sources, like the Forward, clearly states that Carlos Latuff is ''not'' anti-semitic: who do you place in the lead: rrrrrrrright, the "activist" sources. This is a clear ]-violation, and I´m talking it to that board, ] (]) 21:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, because socialist newspapers are always neutral on the question of Israel? This is what Latuff is known for. its not a BLP concern to repeat what is WIDELY reported in reliable sources, and the bias of those reliable sources is not an issue, straight from the policy. We ] and ]. ] (]) 21:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::"WIDELY reported in reliable sources", yet only purely activist sources like ], ] and ] are used in the article? And I would assume ] would be as concerned about anti-semitism as anyone, after all, that is basically the definition of it: that it hits ''each and every'' Jew, not only those with certain opinions. ] (]) 21:39, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Do you have the faintest idea what the ] is? Click on the article and read. If after reading you still think it is a "rotten activist source", then let me suggest you are not fit to be editing in this topic area. ] (]) 22:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I´m basically interested in *one* thing here, and that is: ''who'' funds them? Wouldn´t that be convenient for those who rule in Israel, if all who criticise Israel were called anti-semites? ] (]) 22:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Let me repeat, since you apparently didn't bother to read what I wrote: Read the ] article. If, after reading it , you still think it is a "rotten activist source", then let me suggest you are not fit to be editing in this topic area, and I will probably take action to see to it that you don't. ] (]) 23:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::On *this* issue is it. On other issues, it might be different. And I´m soooooo sick of these threats "not fit to be editing in this topic area, and I will probably take action to see to it that you don't" etc. Either report me, or just shut up. ] (]) 23:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Expect to see yourself at AE in the upcoming weeks. Someone who thinks that an academic institution that is a research organ of one of the world's top 200 universities, which is focused on research of antisemitism is a "rotten activist source" on topics of antisemitism either does not understand wikipedia's policy on reliable sources well enough to be editing, period, or possibly worse, understands it well enough, but knowingly violates it when it comes to a specific topic because she wants to push a POV, in which case she should be topic banned. It will probably take me a few days to put together an AE case. Adios. ] (]) 23:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| He oftentimes dubbs the Russian narrative about "all Ukrainians are nazis", examples: | |||
| == RFC : Should the antisemitism bit be mentioned in the lede == | |||
| https://www.irancartoon.com/site/media/zartists/75a4d29f877cd51c3aba2fb049b8611b/carlos-latuff-26.jpg | |||
| {{rfc|pol|hist|reli|soc|bio|media|rfcid=4880B22}} | |||
| https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1181257040913686528 | |||
| '''Should the statement that some of Latuff's cartoons have been called antisemetic be included in the lede''' | |||
| From what the subject posts in social media, his Iran-China-Russia bias is obvious, and it should be pointed out in the article. ] (]) 21:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ===Survey=== | |||
| * '''include''' ] and ]. These are well sourced allegations, covered in detail in the body of the article. The lead should serve as a mini-article and cover all major controversies. ] (]) 15:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''don't include''' per ] and ]. ] (]) 20:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''don't include''' pr Pikolas, ] (]) 21:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''include''' The accusations of antisemitism against Latuff's cartoons are a major issue in this article. The ] exists to summarize essential facts (including controversies).--] (]) 02:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree completely and it's a shame that it's not mentioned in the article. Do you know of any reliable sources so we can put it in? ] (]) 21:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ===Threaded discussion=== | |||
Latest revision as of 23:15, 3 August 2024
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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Markaberk.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Excessive external links
We now have five links in the external links section. As per WP:EXT, this is excessive. See WP:ELMINOFFICIAL: Normally, only one official link is included. If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. However, Misplaced Pages does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website. Misplaced Pages does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says.
Can we choose which one or two to include and delete the others?
- A Google search yields this article as the first result at the twitter page as the second, so I guess it is the most popular official link. “WarKosign” 20:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Cuckolding fetish
Before anyone revert my edit, he actually has many cartoons about this topic.
https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/842577690322501632
https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/842577690322501632
etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azuizo (talk • contribs) 05:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's WP:OR or borders vandalism --Denniss (talk) 09:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- Now I’ve linked an academic article about this. It is not original research anymore. :-) Azuizo (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- this ref is worth nothing as your claim is not supported + its in a foreign language without translation. --Denniss (talk) 19:33, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- Now I’ve linked an academic article about this. It is not original research anymore. :-) Azuizo (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Non english sources are allowed, but it is in bounds to ask for a translation of the relevant portion. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Non-English_sources. Azuizo Please provide a quote of the relevant section in both the original language and English. ResultingConstant (talk) 23:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- I find it incredibly racist to say that Portuguese is a “foreign” language. Azuizo (talk) 20:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- you do know this is the English wiki right? ResultingConstant (talk) 21:35, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Stance on Russia-Ukraine war
The article clearly lacks any mentions of pro-russian sentiment shared by the subject. Since 2014 he made several caricatures depicting Ukrainians in a dehumanizing way, like this:
https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1504505076290891778 https://ms-my.facebook.com/internationalriot/photos/ukraine-antimaidan-euromaidanfrom-latuff-brasil/671544492901910/
I, as a Ukrainian, find it offensive
He oftentimes dubbs the Russian narrative about "all Ukrainians are nazis", examples:
https://www.irancartoon.com/site/media/zartists/75a4d29f877cd51c3aba2fb049b8611b/carlos-latuff-26.jpg https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1181257040913686528
From what the subject posts in social media, his Iran-China-Russia bias is obvious, and it should be pointed out in the article. Choomaque (talk) 21:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- I agree completely and it's a shame that it's not mentioned in the article. Do you know of any reliable sources so we can put it in? 84.148.208.43 (talk) 21:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
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