| Revision as of 23:30, 13 April 2003 editEclecticology (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers10,056 edits re caption← Previous edit |
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This is blatant propaganda. US-friendly countries in Misplaced Pages with appalling human rights -- I'm talking tens of thousands murdered, not thousands of prisoners -- get whitewashed, while Castro gets alomst nothing but invective for human rights abuses many times more minor. <P> |
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I'm not disputing that Castro's an autocrat and puts people in jail for criticizing him. But where's the mention of Cuba's incredibly generous aid work program, which sends twice as many foreign aid workers to poor countries as does the United States, a country incomparably more rich and ten times larger? Where's the acknowledgement of the obvious American role in encouraging human rights abuses by Castro's regime? Cuba's been subjected to an American terror campaign out of Miami for decades now -- real brutal stuff, dropping germs on cattle, blowing up an ammunition ship in Havana harbour slaughtering scores of civillians, burning down a department store with a thermite-stuffed doll killing scores more, blowing up a factory right at the height of the missile crisis and killing hundreds, bombing foreign tourists who dare to visit Cuba, I could go on and on. And that's without even discussing an embargo specifically aimed at preventing food and medicine from getting to Cuba in violation of every international law and WTO rule you can think of. <P> |
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When America was subjected to the deaths of many citizens, but nothing even approaching the loss of American independence or the fall of its government, it clamped down significantly on civil liberties. If some incomprehensibly powerful country was terrorizing and starving America, do you think they'd fail to imprison people who advocate overthrowing their government? <P> |
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The attackers at the Bay of Pigs were not "slaughtered". They were defeated, surrendered, and were eventually released (with the exception of some leaders, who were executed). If Cubans tried that on Miami, do you think a single one wouldn't be executed? <P> |
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|action1date=14:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC) |
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"Soviet subsidies" were far less than the economic damage done by the American embargo and did not "finance Cuba's social conditions". Cuba's citizens are still better off than many Latin Americans living under "capitalist democracy" despite forty years of murderous blockade. America preaches about the abused Cubans but struggles fiercly to prevent them actually leaving Cuba. <P> |
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|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Fidel Castro/archive1 |
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America's internal documents show they decided to overthrow Castro before he was a communist and before he had nationalized anything other than phone companies and similar obvious public utilities. <P> |
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This whole article reads like a Cato Institute briefing or something. I don't know where to begin to fix it.--Anon |
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:Copyedited for ]. Factualy statements kept in and reduced the number of unneeded adjectives. --] |
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|action2date=19:06, 19 April 2015 |
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172.161.185.97, may I offer you a few tips? |
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|otd1date=2004-12-02|otd1oldid=16335543|otd2date=2005-01-01|otd2oldid=9426118|otd3date=2006-01-01|otd3oldid=33524455 |
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* Register yourself with a screen name so that people know who you are. (It's free, takes one minute, and need not disclose your real name or email address if you don't want it to.) People will take you more seriously if you are not just an anonymous number. |
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|otd4date=2022-02-16|otd4oldid=1071901643 |
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* Make small changes, a bit at a time, taking care to make sure that they are verifiable and expressed dispasionatley. |
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* The net effect of putting in an adulatory para like the one you added to this article is that someone will delete it, and the useful information that it contains will be lost. Tone down your language, take out as much emotive stuff as you can, and let the facts speak for themselves. |
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|action3date = 2022-04-04 |
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If you can do these things successfully, then you can make a real contribution to this page, and to the other pages you have been editing. ] |
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|action3link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Fidel Castro/archive1 |
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|topic=History |
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The version of Jan. 3, 2003 is heavily pro-Castro. |
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*It makes no mention of Castro's forcible suppression of opposition, calling him the "unchallenged leader" and claiming that the masses "rallied behind him." |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=GA|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Castro, Fidel|1= |
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*It fails to mention Castro's policy of forbidding emigration (I've read reports in newspapers of Castro's navy sinking boats carrying people trying to escape.) |
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{{WikiProject Socialism|importance=top}} |
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*It ought to mention the lack of press freedom, too. |
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{{WikiProject Atheism|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=y|military-priority=High|politician-work-group=y|politician-priority=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Cuba|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=GA|Biography=y|North-American=y|Cold-War=y}} |
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{{Top 25 Report|Dec 14 2014 (25th)|Mar 20 2016 (25th)|Nov 20 2016 (1st)|Nov 27 2016 (1st)}} |
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==Net worth== |
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I see that in 2006, Forbes ranked Castro as #7 on a list richest heads of state. May we mention this? I do not wish to bother if it has already been edited out. |
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Why is Cuba's infant mortality rate only "technically" lower than the US's? If it's lower, it's lower. ] 10:19 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC) |
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:The way to deal with this is to find the figures from a reputable source, such as an appropriate international agency, and shoe the actual figures. "Technically lower" in my mind means "not statistically significant". ] 17:49 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC) |
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::Fair enough. I'll do some research. However "technically lower" still reads to me a bit like sour grapes, as if the lower figure is somehow not "real". ] 09:43 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC) |
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== Random Sentence == |
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::: OK, figures are from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), available at http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/tables/2002/02hus026.pdf. You're right that the rates are close (7.1 infant deaths per 1,000 live births for Cuba versus 7.2 for the USA), but still I don't see the point of the "technically". "Slightly" I think would do the job and that's what I'm going to change it to. ] 09:57 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC) |
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What is this sentence, |
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"The publication "Forbes" valued the inheritance left by the former Cuban leader, Fidel Castro, at approximately 900 million dollars." |
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Castro's not the only name on the ballot. He's not on the ballot. Cuban citizens don?t vote in presidental elections. He?s elected by the state council. |
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doing at the end of the youth section? It doesn't relate at all with the sentence before and feels extremely disconnected. ] (]) 06:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC) |
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: The 900 million dollar estimate is mentioned three times in the article. Someone must think it is important. ] (]) 11:05, 21 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== "dictator, marxist" in opening sentence? == |
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I ask {{u|YMVD}} to discuss their desired changes to the opening sentence here rather than edit warring. ], {{tq|The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.}} ] (]) 03:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC) |
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This anonomyous user has revised the comment regarding voting. It is now factual and accurate. |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Fidel Castro|answered=yes}} |
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in the introduction it says that Castro's Government "Advanced Economic and Social Justice" |
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this does not make sense and just sounds kind of wrong, would suggest changing it his government made "Economic and Social Justice Advancements" ] (]) 18:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Does the state council vote for anyone other than Castro? |
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] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> I think the current text is clearer than the suggested replacement. ] (]) 19:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Do you have any voting results for all of the times Castro was reelected/reconfirmed by the state council? |
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== ERIKA CUBOVA COBOVA == |
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Don't you think that I know this? I don't know anyone, including grade-schoolers, who doesn't know that. |
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POZDRAVLJENI VKLOPILI SO MI ADROID IN IN DELA VELIKO STVARI MAM GOR LP 031286008 ] (]) 14:07, 28 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Leaving aside the POV issues for the moment, one issue that strikes me is the amount of overlap between this article and the one on ]. Under the circumstances of a 44 year reign it can be difficult to separate the man from the history of his country. My inclination would be to use the present article to deal with what the man personally did, while the actions of his government properly belong with the other article. ] 20:33 Apr 6, 2003 (UTC) |
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I removed this: |
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"Supporters of Castro also point out that Cuba's human rights record is significantly better than many other countries in the Carribean/Latin America region." |
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By what measure? Health care? Education? Access to the essentials for survival? |
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But this certainly isn’t the case for the issues that most Westerners associate with “human rights”. The above sentence shouldn’t be placed back into the article until it’s clarified. |
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:I'm inclined to put it back in (but a little further up in the article to immediately follow and be in the same paragraph as the criticism of Cuban human rights). The existing criticism of Cuban human rights is just as vaguely worded. ] 00:53 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC) |
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In this context, human rights is a loaded slogan. If you’re going to put it back in the article, make it point out something factual. You could make it point out, for instance, better health care, education, access to the essentials, and so forth. But most contributors, beining Westerners, will associate “human rights” with political rights. And it’s a fact that this is a weak area for Cuba. |
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:I agree that "human rights" can be a loaded term, and that Westerners will tend to associate it with political rights. That being said, criticism of Cuban human rights was already there. Are you therefore suggesting that the references to the term should be removed from both perspectives on the matter? ] |
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"Supporters of Castro also point out that Cuba's human rights record is significantly better than many other countries in the Carribean/Latin America region." |
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The way this is worded makes it seem as if supporters are pointing out an incontrovertible fact. Misplaced Pages does not need to claim that Cuba's human rights record is better than those of other Latin American countries. |
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Since no opposition NGOs and parties are allowed to organize and challenge the government in competitive elections, most readers are going to dismiss the article offhand because of this sentence. Right now, there’s a crackdown on dissent in Cuba. I have to admire Castro’s good timing, doing this while everyone’s paying attention to Iraq. |
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Instead, you could point out low levels of poverty, homelessness, and unemployment and near-universal access to good medical and educational facilities. Let’s keep this on a more concrete level. |
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:"Point out" IMHO is just another way of saying "claim" or "say" while avoiding the monotony of using the same expression all the time. There is no suggestion of incontrovertibility in that phrasing. In any case please note that when I first restored the comment I changed the word to "reply", Extensive details about other countries' human rights abuses would not be warranted, but a few links would probably be OK. We can't view this matter in Cuba in complete isolation from the rest of the region and its history. In comparison to the Spanish administration and the presidencies of Machado and Batista, Castro's abuses have been quite mild. |
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:I don't share your fears that readers will dismiss the entire article because of the comment, but either POV about that is speculative. Yes, some dissenters have just been sentenced to long prison terms, but I seriously doubt that Castro was concerned about the timing; he's never shown much concern for US public opinion on this in the past. Why should he start now? The biggest concentration of political prisoners with violated human rights on Cuban territory now happens to be at Guantanamo. ] 03:38 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC) |
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Eclecticology: |
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I agree with you completely. |
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I'm a historian and I too tend to look at dictators within a historical context. I've long been accused of being an apologist, for among others Castro, on this site for doing so. |
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But that doesn't matter. The sentence needs rewording. |
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Maybe you can state, “supporters claim that Cuba’s human rights record…”, and then explain how they justify this viewpoint. |
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Or this can go in the article: "in comparison to the Spanish administration and the presidencies of Machado and Batista, Castro's abuses have been quite mild." This is a valid point. |
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I'm just contesting the use of the term "human rights" in this context since it is a very loaded, vague concept. |
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Can someone move the photo of young Fidel to the left side of the page? I think it would look better there. - ] |
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: I moved it (and noted the pixel width) as the earlier version was under the text in some browsers. -- ] 01:37 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC) |
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What does the picture of the hug grant us? All we get is Fidel's back. Doesn't a discussion of the national relationship in words give us far more? -- ] |
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Yeah. But there's a caption under the photo. This combination makes the article more visual, presentable, and attractive. |
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:''In a show of improving relations between the two Communist allies once hurt by the Sino-Soviet Split (Castro was stauncy pro-Soviet),'' -- I've removed all this from the picture caption. Commentary belongs in the text, and not in a caption. It is sufficient for the caption to identify the people, and just what they are doing. ] 23:30 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC) |
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I see that in 2006, Forbes ranked Castro as #7 on a list richest heads of state. May we mention this? I do not wish to bother if it has already been edited out.
What is this sentence,
"The publication "Forbes" valued the inheritance left by the former Cuban leader, Fidel Castro, at approximately 900 million dollars."
doing at the end of the youth section? It doesn't relate at all with the sentence before and feels extremely disconnected. Cheesesprite (talk) 06:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
in the introduction it says that Castro's Government "Advanced Economic and Social Justice"
this does not make sense and just sounds kind of wrong, would suggest changing it his government made "Economic and Social Justice Advancements" Redjarvis (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done: I think the current text is clearer than the suggested replacement. PianoDan (talk) 19:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)