| Revision as of 20:33, 26 August 2024 editSeefooddiet (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers22,853 edits →Requested move 21 July 2024: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 15:32, 17 September 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,299,654 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:East Asian age reckoning/Archive 1) (botTag: Replaced |
| (5 intermediate revisions by 5 users not shown) |
| Line 20: |
Line 20: |
|
{{notice|{{find}}}} |
|
{{notice|{{find}}}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Factual accuracy of the second lead paragraph == |
|
== "Real age" == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The second lead paragraph ("Chinese age reckoning, the first of these methods ") contains no citation. From perusing the article, I have no idea whether any claim in that paragraph is true. ] (]) 13:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
The ] contrasts "Korean age" with "Real age". Even though it's used by most of the world, it's still not ideal to suggest one culture's counting system is more "real" than another. Are there any alternate terms that might be more neutral? I'd ping the image creator, but it appears they're no longer active. ] <small>(])</small> 15:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:This caught my eye as well. I would suggest "chronological age" as more neutral alternative. ] (]) 16:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:: uses "international system" and "western way". uses "international standards" and "calendar age". also uses "international standards". International standards and calendar age seem like useful and more neutral terms, depending on context. ] (]) 02:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:::International age or calendar age are both much preferable to "real age". <nowiki>:</nowiki>3 ] (]]) 00:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:I've gone ahead and changed the graphic to say "International Age." The closest font I could find that matched was Bitstream Vera Serif Bold, if someone else decides to change it in the future. ] (]) 14:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Requested move 21 July 2024 == |
|
|
|
|
|
{{requested move/dated|Age reckoning in the Sinosphere}} |
|
|
|
|
|
] → {{no redirect|Age reckoning in the Sinosphere}} – Rationale explained here: ] and in ]. Tl;dr, "East Asia" often excludes Vietnam, which is also a part of the ]. |
|
|
|
|
|
Related previous move discussions that passed: ] and ]. |
|
|
|
|
|
Open to more suggested titles. Alternates: |
|
|
# Sinosphere age reckoning |
|
|
#* I think a little confusing; may suggest trying to determine the age of the Sinosphere itself. |
|
|
# Traditional age reckoning in the Sinosphere |
|
|
#* This is more precise I feel; currently, as far as I'm aware, the entire Sinosphere no longer uses the age reckoning for major applications, mostly just ceremonial. "Age reckoning in x" can be interpreted as a present and not mostly past practice |
|
|
|
|
|
] (]) 10:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' ] (]) 10:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)</small> <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' ] <sup>]</sup> 14:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)</small> |
|
|
|
|
|
:* Weak '''oppose''': because "sinosphere" isn't a common word. "East Asian" may not be entirely accurate but it is close and it is well recognized. —] (] | ]) 19:55, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I know we don't have to have consistency, but this breaks consistency with the other articles I linked above. The issue is "not be entirely accurate" -> frequent exclusion of Vietnam. This debate hinges on how much you value recognizability of name vs the potential exclusion of Vietnam from this phenomenon. ] (]) 00:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::The Misplaced Pages article on ] includes "Some scholars include Vietnam as part of East Asia as it has been considered part of the greater Chinese cultural sphere". —] (] | ]) 01:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::I know, I said "frequent exclusion". Also key phrase there "Chinese cultural sphere". |
|
|
:::::This is a less strong argument, but when you ask a person on the street "what countries are in East Asia", how likely are they to include Vietnam in the list? And if they do include Vietnam, do they also include Cambodia, Laos, etc (which are not part of the Sinosphere)? ] (]) 01:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::So "frequent ''in''clusion" as well, yes? "Sinosphere" is considered a spelling error by my editor. Is it the case that "sinosphere" is exactly the same as all regions and peoples who have reckoned age as described in this article? What if we keep the current title but mention "Sinosphere" and/or "Vietnam" prominently in the lede? We could also add redirects from ] and similar. —] (] | ]) 13:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::I'd argue exclusion is more common than inclusion. Yes, the scope of the age reckoning overlaps directly with the Sinosphere; the system originates in China and spread from there along with Chna's cultural influence. It's also not the most intuitive system; would have been hard to independently invent. |
|
|
:::::::The redirect/clarification in lead would be ok, but I'd prefer we make this title consistent with the other articles. The other moves have already passed; should we undo those? ] (]) 21:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::It is considered bad form to propose a move back immediately after a move, though if I had been aware of those moves early enough, I would have opined there too. Was the participation rate for those discussions as low as for this one? —] (] | ]) 21:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::I linked relevant discussions above; you can check. I still support my original proposal, especially given the other titles. ] (]) 23:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::The whole ] thing (BCE (BC), CE (AD)) starts with a value of 1 — there is no year zero — and increments with each new calendar year. When a freshman starts at a school they are a "first-year" (not "zero-year") student and it increments with each school year; and similarly for "first grade". In particular, a student who starts first grade mid year doesn't have to wait 365 days to enter second grade. |
|
|
::::::::I don't know of examples outside of East Asia / Sinosphere where this kind of reckoning is used for ages of humans, but neither is it obvious to me that it is impossible or even unlikely. I suppose the onus is now on me to look and see. —] (] | ]) 20:34, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::The ] article itself includes "The Sinosphere, also known as the Chinese cultural sphere, ''East Asian'' cultural sphere, or the Sinic world, encompasses ..." (emphasis mine). Perhaps that counts as evidence that the terms are often synonyms. —] (] | ]) 13:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::As above, I'd argue not precisely synonyms given how common it is to exclude Vietnam from "East Asia". ] (]) 21:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Right, so it's explicitly not fully adequate, as many reading will explicitly not see Vietnam as within its scope. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 10:27, 18 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Tagging @]; this move discussion is related to your post on ] ] (]) 03:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Personally dislike the term {{!xt|Sinosphere}}. Maybe it's because I can't remember ever encountering it anywhere except Misplaced Pages; maybe it's because – like {{tqq|Sinogram}}, a direct translation of 漢字 – it feels like it low key pathologizes a cultural practice, or gives undue prominence to the influence of Chinese culture on its region.{{pb}}I am sympathetic to the fact that this is – as far as I'm aware – entirely an historical practice, so I'd support a move to ], ], ], or the like.{{pb}}But if the problem is that Vietnam is not sufficiently widely understood as being included as part of East Asia, I don't feel like the solution is to expunge the term "East Asia" from our cultural lexicon and leave it in a box on the doorstep of the Geography Department.{{pb}}Also, I could be entirely wrong. Maybe in 2024 "Sinosphere" is actually a super common term in modern cultural studies, and I'm just old-fashioned (I'm certainly at least old). ] (]) 09:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::This is the OP; I made an account. The latter two redlinks I'd oppose; the lunisolar calendar is not exclusive to the Sinosphere, and the Sinosphere has unique age-related practices. |
|
|
::{{tq|I don't feel like the solution is to expunge the term "East Asia" from our cultural lexicon and leave it in a box on the doorstep of the Geography Department.}} This isn't what I'm proposing; "East Asia" is a useful phrase when talking about China, Japan, and Korea. It's just not the best phrase for describing the Chinese cultural sphere, which is what is happening in this article. |
|
|
::I've seen "Sinosphere" enough times in academic literature that it doesn't seem as unusual to me. I also don't feel like it gives undue weight to the influence of China to the region; China was indeed a large influence. ] (]) 16:47, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:I think the current title is better. I understand why you wish to have the Sinosphere because you speak of Chinese influenced regions which includes Korea. Not sure if we can say Modern Korea is in Sinosphere, there is more Western influence today. But, I think Sinosphere is not good when describing Japan which is in the article. East Asia is a good way to talk about the region. I think ] is good or current title. ] (]) 07:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::If you pull up the article for ], this is the first sentence: {{tq|The Sinosphere, also known as the Chinese cultural sphere, East Asian cultural sphere, or the Sinic world, encompasses multiple countries in East Asia and Southeast Asia that were historically heavily influenced by Chinese culture}}. Key word "historically". |
|
|
::Also don't apply ]; it's not up to you whether countries are in or out of the Sinosphere. The only analysis we should be applying is analyzing what reliable sources are saying about the topic. ] (]) 07:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:<small>Note: ], ], ], ], ], ], and ] have been notified of this discussion. ] 10:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)</small> |
|
|
:* '''Support'''{{snd}}I wish there were a more obvious option for all five ], but per my reasoning on ] I think precision is more important than recognizability here. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 10:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
*I don't think I can support the Sinosphere title. I've gone through every single search result on Google scholar for "age reckoning" and not one source mentions the Sinosphere, while multiple use {{tq|(Traditional) East Asian age reckoning (system)}} or {{tq|East Asian system of age reckoning}} (16/95 sources), with explicitly stating {{tq|East Asia, including China, Japan, Korea and Vietnam}}. I don't really have much else other than some descriptions of the academic literature which might be helpful I guess—62/95 of the sources used a specific country name (e.g. {{tq|Traditional Chinese age reckoning system}}, {{tq|Korean age reckoning}}, {{tq|Chinese nominal age}}, etc.), with about half the countries named being China (33; the others were Korea (15), Japan (11), Tibet (2) and Nepal (1)). One common alternative to East Asian/Chinese age reckoning was {{tq|Lunar (calendar) age}} (7 sources of 95, though looking for "lunar age" was quite difficult and it probably won't work here since most of these countries have since switched to the Gregorian Calendar). ~ ] (] • ]) 10:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
*:The COMMONNAME/definition we're using for "East Asia" on Misplaced Pages presently excludes Vietnam by default, so I am not sure what to do: I would consider {{xt|Age reckoning in the Sinosphere}} to be a descriptive phrase rather than a reified proper name per ], so it's not a situation where we're totally bound by external use of that exact phrasology. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 20:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
*::In support of this, ]: {{tq|East Asia is a geographical and cultural region of Asia including the countries of China, Japan, Mongolia, North Korea, South Korea, and Taiwan. Additionally, Hong Kong and Macau are the two Special Administrative Regions of China}}. I also agree that this title is a descriptive phrase and isn't necessarily bound by COMMONNAME, although COMMONNAME should probably weigh into the decision somewhat as well. |
|
|
*::While one source in F4U's research included Vietnam in East Asia, it's easy to find sources that don't. E.g. . |
|
|
*::I think there are fair arguments on both sides, but I'd still prefer the clearer inclusion of Vietnam in the article's scope, and in general in discussions of the Sinosphere. ] (]) 20:33, 26 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
The second lead paragraph ("Chinese age reckoning, the first of these methods ") contains no citation. From perusing the article, I have no idea whether any claim in that paragraph is true. Y. Dongchen (talk) 13:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
.svg){kind=small}
