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Revision as of 07:41, 27 March 2005 edit69.231.205.239 (talk)No edit summary← Previous edit Latest revision as of 14:19, 23 September 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,304,379 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo/Archive 13) (bot 
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Restored page from obvious POV edit unfairly favoring the Iglesia Ni Cristo.
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I'm a member, and I think that quote describes the INC succintly and perfectly. It has created its share of controversy, and mainly focuses on discrediting Presbyterian and Catholic ideology.
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Does this part sound NPOV? "Noted for its distinctive church architecture of narrow pointed spires, it is a controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the ], which is the predominant religion in the country."
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"and many say that the Church administration was told to stop by Internal Revenue Service agents": sounds like a rumor to me. Isn't this supposed to be an encyclopedia?
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== Can we change the registration date to July 13, 1914? ==
== Just ] ==


It is inaccurate to have their actual registration date on July 27, 1914. That is an amended registration date. Please see the source for their actual registration date, July 13, 1914.
I think there is some confusion here. Unless this is talking about a different group, Iglesia ni Christo is just "]" in another language. This article sounds like it more or less describes the Church of Christ, with some confusion from people who probably don't understand it. The Church of Christ was certainly not established in the Philippines! ] 17:29, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)


https://archive.org/details/ApplicationToRegisterIglesiaNiKristoDated13thOfJuly1914/Application%20to%20Register%20Iglesia%20ni%20Kristo%20dated%2013th%20of%20July%201914/ ] (]) 23:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
The name Iglesia Ni Cristo specifically refers to the organization created by Felix Y. Manalo.


:The Iglesia ni Cristo has maintained that they were founded on July 27 (https://web.archive.org/web/20120821051154/http://www.incmedia.org/inc/history.html), what do you mean by "an amended registration date"? Amended by whom, and when?
== Two Points ==
:I think more information is needed on how your document was obtained and the type of document this is to verify its authenticity and the validity of the July 13 claim. July 13 is exactly 2 weeks before July 27. Thus, depending on the processes surrounding this document, it could be that it could take 2 weeks for the registration to take effect, or some legal phenomenon with a delay period such that the July 27 claim is accurate. ] (]) 18:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)


== HD Version of the Revised Seal? ==
First of all, this group ''is'' an indigenous Filipino group and is not identical to the Church of Christ of the American Restoration Movement, which also has a major mission work in the Philippines, adding to confusion regarding the two groups. Also, both claim to be nothing more than just the continuation or restoration of the original church established by Jesus Christ; whether either group or any such group has the actual right to claim such a thing must be of needs left to a higher Authority than myself, or Misplaced Pages.


The current seal on the article is too low quality. ] (]) 03:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Second, yes, the name is no more than "Church of Christ" in Tagalog (Filipino).
:{{re|FreiGenesis}} Since I'm fairly certain the seal is protected by copyright, we'd have to replicate it using public domain assets. I'll ask a friend of a friend to take a stab at it, but it might be a while. ~ ] (]) 04:05, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
:Unfortunately that's the only publicly available file of the current iteration of the seal at the moment (without the compass and the triangular ruler).] (]) 13:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
== "]" listed at ] ==
]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 3#Manalo Cult}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]/]) 23:34, 3 August 2024 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2024 ==
] 23:59, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)


{{edit semi-protected|Iglesia ni Cristo|answered=yes}}
=="Disestablishment"==
Please update the reference for the following source:


"5. Adriel Obar Meimban (1994). 'A Historical Analysis of the Iglesia ni Cristo: ''Cult'' in the Far East, Philippine Islands' (PDF)."
This term needs to be cut from the article in my opinion as well. This improperly implies that the Catholic Church is officially recognized in the Republic of the Philippines as the state religion, which I do not believe to be the case. "Disestablishment" is a term of art meaning to abolish a denomination's status as an official state church. Perhaps the terms "disprove" or "dispute" should be used instead? ] 00:07, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)


The original title of the book, as verified through the Wayback Machine, is:
== Perteinence ==


"A Historical Analysis of the Iglesia ni Cristo: ''Christianity'' in the Far East, Philippine Islands."
Does it matter that much whether a Filipino-centered group has 501(c)(3) status in the U.S. or not, or whether it endorses candidates in U.S. elections to make that a focus of the article or even merit a mention. Obviously there are Filipinos in the U.S., including members of this group, as there are in almost every country in the world, but is this really worth mentioning in an ''encyclopeida article'' about this group? Also, the alleged resemblance between its buildings and LDS buildings should either be demonstrated with (noncopyrighted) pictures or deleted IMO.
] 00:02, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Here is the archived link for reference: https://web.archive.org/web/20110826002343/http://repository.cc.sophia.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/123456789/5124/1/200000079942_000012000_95.pdf
== This article is biased ==


I propose correcting the reference to reflect the accurate title. ] (]) 00:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
It's quite difficult to understand the INC by just leaning on what you see on the internet. While this article tries to be NPOV, certain points suggest the authors' bias against the INC:
* suggestion that the INC is a cult ("some say...")
** Removed. INC is more of a sect than a cult. The only factor which makes it a cult is the chrurch admin's power over it's congregation. --] 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
* suggestion that the INC's chapels are copied from LDS chapels (again, "some say...")
** Not all INC locales have narrow pointed spires. Other churches may also have spires. --] 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
* suggestion that the INC tries to meddle with US politics ("it has tried...")
** The INC does influence voters.
* questioning the supposed "questionable move" of publishing congratulatory messages from American political leaders
* suggestion that the INC sacrifices church unity in exchange for a tax-exempt status ("many say...")
** It would help if someone provides sources of this. --] 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)


:Fixed citation. Regards. ] (]) 03:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
*Even publishing a magazine titled "God's Message" did not escape this absurd piece of "factual" junk. "Found controversial by some"?!?
** Removed. I don't see any implications of the authors of <i>God's Message</i> as written from God. --] 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)


] '''Already done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 05:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
I respectfully suggest that this article be placed in a disputed status.
* The article doesn't show an outright NPOV, so it's been put under "Biased" status.

==Corrected Description==

by gcessor

I tried to edit the description as is described below, but apparently the biased information could not be removed. Will those who have such access please examine the corrections suggested below in order to be more closely aligned with the Misplaced Pages policy of NPOV, and make the appropriate corrections?

------------------------

Removed following: "it is a sometimes controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the predominant religion in it's founding country."
Misplaced Pages's editorial policy is the "neutral point of view", often abbreviated "NPOV". Therefore, the information that is included about the INC should not revolve mainly around one particular issue (as with the information left by the previous author) but should either simply describe the INC or, if one believes that controversy must be included, then an equal amount of complementary material must be included. Otherwise, the information included cannot follow the Misplaced Pages's editorial policy of NPOV.

-----------------------

Removed "it is a sometimes controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the predominant religion in it's founding country"

The stated aim of the INC is not to 'disestablish' the Catholic church, but to spread the Gospel throughout the world. It is true that the INC opposes the Catholic church, but that is part of the doctrine but is NOT the 'aim' or purpose of the INC.

-----------------------

Changed "founded by Felix Manalo on July 27, 1914" to "registered with the Filipino government by Felix Manalo on July 27, 1914".

-----------------------

Changed "The Iglesia ni Cristo has grown to more than two hundred congregations in over 84 countries outside the Philippines." to "The Iglesia ni Cristo has grown to thousands of congregations within the Philippines and more than two hundred congregations in over 84 countries and territories outside the Philippines."

The above change was to give a better picture of the INC inside and outside the Philippines.

-----------------------

Changed "estimates place worldwide membership to 6 million" to "estimates of worldwide membership range from 3 to 10 million".

Reference found at: http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_314.html

-----------------------

Changed "for whichever candidate the church administrators decide in Philippine elections" to "in accordance with the guidance of the church administration in Philippine elections".

-----------------------

Changed "The Manila media credit the INC" to "Some Manila media credit the INC", for not all Manila media give such credit to the INC.

-----------------------

Deleted the following:

"It has tried to present itself on numerous occasions as being a strong political force in the United States as well. The Iglesia ni Cristo used to distribute a list of supported candidates to members before an election, along with a lesson usually the Sunday before a major election emphasizing unity to the Church administration."

and

"During the mid-1990's it published letters in the "God's Message" magazine from various American political leaders congratulating the INC on its anniversary, with a short article talking about the growth of the INC in America which led to such recognition. That was found to an extremely questionable move, on both its motives and origins, since one does not necessarily have to be the leader of a large organization to receive a form letter with preprinted signature that are available to anyone on request from an elected official's representative office to celebrate a birthday, anniversary or similar occasion."

and

"Support of political candidates and organizations by non-profit organizations are illegal under IRS Section 501(c)3 rules, and it's been rumored that the Church administration was told to stop by Internal Revenue Service agents under penalty of having their tax-exempt status revoked. Before the presidential election of 2000, the Iglesia Ni Cristo shocked many by saying that it would not endorse anyone and has not publically endorsed any candidate in a U.S election since."

These are not unbiased statements. It seems the author is more interested in pointing out what he believes to be wrong with the INC and is including statements and opinions that belong on a forum rather than in an UNBIASED description in an encyclopedia.

-----------------------

Changed ""The Pasugo" is the INC's monthly magazine who's title translates to "The Message" in English." to "The Pasugo" is the INC's monthly magazine. The title translates to "The Message" in English." to conform with standard rules of the English language. "Who's" is a contraction of 'who is', and the author's sentence would then read "...monthly magazine who is title translates...", which makes no sense.

-----------------------

Removed "In the U.S, it is called "God's Message". It used to be distributed free to all, but since the mid-1990's, the INC asks members and to "donate" or pay for each copy they receive while distributing it free to non-members."

The author is apparently unaware that for the past several years the Pasugo has been free to all members and non-members.

-----------------------

Changed "are that:" to "are:". The word "that" is unnecessary.

-----------------------

Changed "Christ was a man sent by God as a mediator" to "Christ was a man sent by God as the only mediator" to more correctly present the INC's doctrine.

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Changed "Each organization has monthly meetings (on average) and there, relays messages from the administration and seeks to increase fellowship and unity between members." to "Each organization has monthly meetings (on average) wherein messages are relayed from the administration in order to increase fellowship and unity between members."

-----------------------

Removed: "and great-grandson Sebastian B. Manalo" since Sebastian Manalo is neither the executive minister or one of the deputies thereof.

and

Changed "is currently being administered by the founder's heirs, Felix Manalo's son, Erano G. Manalo, grandson, Eduardo V. Manalo" to "is currently being administered by Erano G. Manalo and Eduardo V. Manalo, who are the son and grandson of Felix Y. Manalo, respectively."

The author seems to have wanted to imply nepotism on the part of the INC administration by using 'heirs' and then redundantly using 'son', 'grandson', and 'great-grandson'. That is not in accordance with the Misplaced Pages's policy of NPOV.

------------------------

Changed the list of links from:

to

Pro:
(Note - the above website is currently inactive, so the following website is listed for further information until the official INC website is once more online: )

Con:

Standard form in English in such instances is to list 'pro' before 'con', and it is appropriate to show which reference takes which view.

== Vast Improvment ==

I don't know if it is still all that biased with all of the current improvements. The stuff about how its buildings resembled LDS, supposed electoral/IRS skullduggery in the U.S., and things like that really needed to go in the absence of great corraborative sources, and I'm glad to see that they have. Also the term "disestablish", which is now well gone since the Catholic Church is the ''predominant'' religion in the Philippines, not the ''established'' (governmentally-supported) one. Anyone feel free to remove the "bias" template at this point? ] 22:22, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

===BIAS Removal, and suggestion===

I noticed that most of the biased portions have been removed, making it a down the middle article. But, I feel it's still incomplete. Should this article summarize the twenty eight doctrines of INC? I'm replacing the Bias Boilerplate, with an Attention one.

==Why not make the changes I listed? (by gcessor)==

I pointed out errors and obvious bias, yet now the article is as it was when I first saw it.

Please tell me why the errors and obvious bias are still there.

===Reply===

As far as I see on my computer, the edits you made are still in the article. You may still have the old copy in your cache, so reloading (press F5 on your keyboard) may bring up the newer version.

When I found the article, it had 3 different versions of the article posted on the same page. The first top one was the original before your edits, the second and third ones were the edit you put. After noticing this, I erased the first and second copies, and left the third one -the one I assumed was the latest- in the article, before I added the links to other parts of Misplaced Pages, because the other copies had the links and formatting omitted. Misplaced Pages's servers were not working properly the other night, so that my be a factor as well. --] 05:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

==Glenn Cessor is not a Neutral Voice in this Matter==

I would like to point out that Glenn Cessor is a member and deacon in the Iglesia Ni Cristo and that the moderators should take that into mind when deciding what edits are valid.

Latest revision as of 14:19, 23 September 2024

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Can we change the registration date to July 13, 1914?

It is inaccurate to have their actual registration date on July 27, 1914. That is an amended registration date. Please see the source for their actual registration date, July 13, 1914.

https://archive.org/details/ApplicationToRegisterIglesiaNiKristoDated13thOfJuly1914/Application%20to%20Register%20Iglesia%20ni%20Kristo%20dated%2013th%20of%20July%201914/ 99.48.153.188 (talk) 23:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The Iglesia ni Cristo has maintained that they were founded on July 27 (https://web.archive.org/web/20120821051154/http://www.incmedia.org/inc/history.html), what do you mean by "an amended registration date"? Amended by whom, and when?
I think more information is needed on how your document was obtained and the type of document this is to verify its authenticity and the validity of the July 13 claim. July 13 is exactly 2 weeks before July 27. Thus, depending on the processes surrounding this document, it could be that it could take 2 weeks for the registration to take effect, or some legal phenomenon with a delay period such that the July 27 claim is accurate. WackyAurelionSol (talk) 18:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

HD Version of the Revised Seal?

The current seal on the article is too low quality. FreiGenesis (talk) 03:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@FreiGenesis: Since I'm fairly certain the seal is protected by copyright, we'd have to replicate it using public domain assets. I'll ask a friend of a friend to take a stab at it, but it might be a while. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:05, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately that's the only publicly available file of the current iteration of the seal at the moment (without the compass and the triangular ruler).Hariboneagle927 (talk) 13:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

"Manalo Cult" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Manalo Cult has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 3 § Manalo Cult until a consensus is reached. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:34, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please update the reference for the following source:

"5. Adriel Obar Meimban (1994). 'A Historical Analysis of the Iglesia ni Cristo: Cult in the Far East, Philippine Islands' (PDF)."

The original title of the book, as verified through the Wayback Machine, is:

"A Historical Analysis of the Iglesia ni Cristo: Christianity in the Far East, Philippine Islands."

Here is the archived link for reference: https://web.archive.org/web/20110826002343/http://repository.cc.sophia.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/123456789/5124/1/200000079942_000012000_95.pdf

I propose correcting the reference to reflect the accurate title. Tagaluto (talk) 00:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Fixed citation. Regards. Sanglahi86 (talk) 03:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

 Already done PianoDan (talk) 05:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

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