| Revision as of 13:43, 20 October 2016 editFlorian Blaschke (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users40,903 edits →Dating: new section← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 18:36, 30 September 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,303,661 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Cyrus Cylinder/Archive 2) (bot |
| (36 intermediate revisions by 22 users not shown) |
| Line 17: |
Line 17: |
|
|topic=World history |
|
|topic=World history |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA|1= |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Iran|class=GA |
|
{{WikiProject Iran|importance=top}} |
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Iraq|importance=high}} |
|
| b1 <!--Referencing & citations--> = yes |
|
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Assyria|importance=Low}} |
|
| b2 <!--Coverage & accuracy --> = yes |
|
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=low}} |
|
| b3 <!--Structure --> = yes |
|
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Israel|importance=high}} |
|
| b4 <!--Grammar & style --> = yes |
|
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Bible|importance=mid}} |
|
| b5 <!--Supporting materials --> = yes |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject Ancient Near East|importance=high}} |
|
| b6 <!--Accessibility --> = yes |
|
|
|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject Human rights|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Iraq|class=GA|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject London|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Assyria|class=GA|importance=Low|}} |
|
{{WikiProject British Museum|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject Judaism|class=GA|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject Archaeology|importance=low}} |
|
|
}} |
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject Jewish history|class=GA|importance=high}} |
|
|
|
<!-- archive must stay multi-line --> |
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject Israel|class=GA|importance=high}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject Bible|class=GA|importance=mid}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject Ancient Near East|class=GA|importance=mid}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject Human rights|class=GA|importance=low}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject London|class=GA|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject British Museum|class=GA|importance=high}}}}<!-- archive must stay multi-line --> |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
| Line 45: |
Line 40: |
|
|archive = Talk:Cyrus Cylinder/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|archive = Talk:Cyrus Cylinder/Archive %(counter)d |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{archives|auto=|search=yes|bot=MiszaBot I|age=60}} |
|
{{archives|auto=|search=yes|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=60}} |
|
|
== Current location of cylinder == |
|
|
|
|
== Another news story == |
|
|
|
|
|
See ... -- ] (]) 15:46, 8 March 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Article is clearly biased == |
|
|
|
|
|
Article is clearly biased against acknowledging the relevance and importance of the cylinder, and needs major restructuring. I have started by removing he whole section that offers an obscure interpretation of the cylinder. Such a translation is of arbitrary irrelevance, and in no way is in line with the justifications of the majority, whom uphold the cylinder as (essentially) a declaration of rights. The George Bush comment was entirely foul, because Bush did not cite the cylinder as the source of his statement regarding Cyrus and religious freedom. There are alternative sources that support that 'fact', that Cyrus was tolerant towards other religious (ie; the bible). - That's just what I could get done in a few minutes. I will continue to contribute until the article is cleaned up, and presents a reasonable point of view. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:01, 18 March 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
|
|
:I've reverted you and it's time to discuss your changes - see ]. We can discuss the deletion you mention, but your addition of the word "western" to describe a viewpoint is I believe a violation of ] and obviously unsourced. ] (]) 06:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
"Western" is an simple and evident fact, that should not need sourcing. The page is completely biased against all of the numerous claims of the cylinder as a charter of rights. The BUSH comment should be removed, which is entirely inappropriate. It's Ironic that the article speaks of propganda and non-neutral points of view, when itself reflects the epitome of bias. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:16, 18 March 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
|
|
:The Bush comment I don't care about. Once again there is confusion about propaganda. Governments, Kings, dictators, emperors, all use and have used propaganda. It goes with the territory. ] (]) 21:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Calling it 'propaganda' is unjustified. Not only because there is little evidence against that notion, but especially when there are independent sources which are in-line with the fact, the cylinder was an accurate reflection of the morals of the time. This is probably the worst wiki article, in terms of inaccuracy and bias that I've come across, and it reflects the underlying weakness of Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:31, 26 March 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
|
|
:First, we reflect what sources say if those sources meet our criteria. Secondly, how many times do I have to say propaganda is a basic tool of government/statecraft? All proclamations are propaganda. ] (]) 17:31, 26 March 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Yeah, we reflect what all reliable sources say, not just the ones we like. Your article doesn't take the view of anyone who has suggested the cylinder is a charter of rights. That's the difference between your biased stance, and neutral reporting. And again, you have included the Bush comment, which makes a false implication regarding the cylinder's contents. That reflect the personal agenda you have against persian history. |
|
|
|
|
|
Absolutely agree that this and the sections about this in Cyrus' article are clearly and immensely biased and based on mere lies from some pseudo-historians that are not regarded by anyone but themselves as being scholars. None of the sources of the outrages claims of the cylinder being propaganda and other nonsense are from reliable sources, not a single one! Including what the Brittish museum has said in the past. Most of the bias in this article and their sources are the works of a "Jona Lindering" of the website Livius.org. He's been on a massive quest to dirty the name of Cyrus and Persian culture in its entirely. I wouldn't be surprised if the administrator called Dougweller here, which seems to have systematically edited the mentioned articles to suit his own agenda, is not Lindering himself!! If he is or not, Lindering has had help from some admins of Misplaced Pages in the past to promote his biased website and articles. Anyone who actually edits in Misplaced Pages, if you read this, please take this issue with the highest authorities of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 00:59, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:All this hating on Lendering (not "Lindering") is somewhat sad, but I find the idea that Doug is Lendering in disguise to be quite hilarious. He's not, I can assure you. In any case, Lendering isn't doing anything more than reflecting the views of professional historians who are very much reliable sources - you won't get any sympathy from "the highest authorities of Misplaced Pages" ''(sic)'' by arguing that they aren't. In contrast it's very noticeable that the sources promoting the pseudohistorical Iranian nationalist POV that you favour are almost entirely not historians, and frequently not reliable sources either. ] (]) 07:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::Indeed. Publications from the British Museum are indeed reliable sources and they do reflect current scholarly consensus on the matter. --] (]) 08:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Lindering, Lendering, I do not care how the guy's name is spelled. However it's spelled, he's still a pseudo-historian, (] violation redacted by ]), traits which you seem to be in favor of also. "pseudohistorical Iranian nationalist POV" I find that provoking and insulting remark extremely amusing and pathetic. Defending one's history against those with hatred, bigotry and a clear agenda to destroy it, is anything but what you said there. No professional historian support these wild accusations which are written in this article, whether you call them that doesn't make them so. They are only a handful bigots, and they have no whatsoever source for their claims. All sources there are regarding this, shows that the declaration does indeed reflect what Cyrus did, sources being the Bible, Cyropedia and the history of the Jews themselves. |
|
|
|
|
|
I am not looking for any sympathy by saying we should provide the obvious proof of the pure biasness of this article to the highest authorities of Misplaced Pages. Rather the proof itself, it is then entirely their choice whether they then choose to disregard the proof and the fact that this article is based on unreliable sources, such as Lendering's site and writings of some mere editor of the British museum. Ironically the current director of the British museum, Dr. Neil MacGregor, gave many talks and interviews in favor of the facts about the cylinder and the human rights it presented at its time. |
|
|
|
|
|
Ok, so i checked the history if this article, it seems ] here is a big editor to it, most of the nonsense written about the cylinder being propaganda is coming from him, and he had help from Dougweller. This is my last reply to you, I don't normally respond to provocations, but I had to respond to the false claims you did there. |
|
|
|
|
|
I repeat, anyone who actually edits in Misplaced Pages, and is interested in this article and of course the truth which nationalists, racists and bigots try to distort and destroy, if you read this, please take this issue with the highest authorities of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 10:30, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I don't think SomeGuy1122 would be satisfied unless it presented only one pov, the one he favors. I've actually removed Lendering as that seems the biggest point of contention and we don't need him. If we want an example of the fake translation, there are several, eg . That can be compared to the real translation at ANET . |
|
|
:I removed some of the attack on Lendering as a BLP violation. It's obviously ridiculous to suggest that I'm Lendering (eg he's Dutch, I'm American) and ignorant and ridiculous to suggest that people like ] aren't professional historians. ] (]) 12:43, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
All I see is further ad hominem and personal attacks on your part Mr. Doug Weller. First of all mind your manners please, calling me ignorant and ridiculous is the BLP violation you were talking about, I'll keep this screenshoted for later. Moreover, the only "fake translation" is the ones you've presented in your biased article which all were from unreliable sources. And finally, mentioning a couple of names and calling them "professional historians" does not make them so, all bias you and Prioryman and Lendering have put in this article come from biased and pseudo-historians with no whatsoever reliability in respectable academic circles. ] (]) 15:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I suggest you stop with the spurious allegations about bias against other editors right now and start concentrating on the subject of this article instead. You have not provided a single example from the article that supports your claims of bias, and you have not provided a single ] ] source in support of your own particular view. On the other hand you have yourself made it quite clear that you are editing with a particular ] in defence "of your history", and with your interest in the nationalities of editors and scholars. You are not doing yourself any favours with such behaviour, nor are you in any way contributing in improving the article. --] (]) 15:17, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
::He can save his screenshot, I called the allegation that ] is not a professional historian ignorant and ridiculous, not the editor. As for the British Museum, ANET, and virtually every academic who has translated this unreliable sources, what can I say? Ah - I can say that he should put his money where his mouth is and take the BM and ANET translations as well as ] to ]. ] (]) 15:31, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I see he's still claiming on his talk page that "Jona Lendering's website Livius.org seem to be the major "source" you've put to back up your claims" which is weird since I don't think I've added it. I know I didn't add the stuff about false translations (and as I've shown, there are false translations out there). ] (]) 15:51, 12 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
I will not respond to further provocations, nor will I repeat myself vs. your claims. Not just by DougWeller of course, but also by his partners in making this biased article and defending it against those who did not share their biased point of views which are presented in this article. You have vandalized and hijacked this article with the help of DougWeller's administrator powers, which he has clearly abused. Evident in the history of this article, and how he systematically has harassed anyone who edited this article who did not share his POV. |
|
|
Again, I request that anyone reading this who actually edits in Misplaced Pages and has experience of these proceedings, to take this matter to the higher administrators. This is a very serious matter, the biased claims of the Cylinder being propaganda is an attack on history with no whatsoever reliable sources nor a single shred of evidence for backup. ] (]) 08:41, 27 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
https://nelc.yale.edu/event/cyrus-conqueror-liberator-superstar The Cyrus Cylinder is currently on loan to Yale University, at the Peabody Museum in New Haven, CT. It will be there until the end of June, when it will then presumably return to London. Should the current location on the infobox be updated? ] (]) 15:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC) |
|
:Noting that SomeGuy1122 was blocked as was a sock he created. Not by me, I'm involved in this article and won't use my Admin tools on it (there are no higher administrators anyway). Propaganda isn't a modern tool of governments, the rulers at the time were just as intelligent as people are today and propaganda, although lacking radio, tv, newspapers, etc was used widely. Another source on Cyrus himself is at p.53. ] (]) 13:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Cylinder does translate into freeing the 'bonded people' == |
|
== Semi-incomprehensible comment left on article page. == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In contrast to the articles assertion, the Cyrus cylinder does translate into freeing the 'bonded people' - and this is very commonly accepted to mean freeing slaves. Also their is no archaeological evidence, including the form of records (tokens/cylinder seals) that allude to the existence of slavery in the Achaemenid period. Aside from a passage or two from Herodotus, who was more of a fear mongering politician than a historian, there is a complete lack of archeological or written evidence for slavery in ancient Iran. ] (]) 18:46, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
no one can daily that Cyrus cylinder is related to Arabic stores in many years a go.and we need to now why it is still in the UK scenic that time. ] (]) 03:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:That's not what Olmstead's "History of the Persian Empire" says: ''"An enormous increase in the slave population during this period brought hardships on the lower middle class."'' etc etc. ] (]) 16:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
(Moved by ] (]) 15:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Dating == |
|
== Charge == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
@IP: To answer your charge: we follow ]. ] mainstream academic sources if you want something changed in that article. |
|
The German article summarises sources arguing that the Cylinder was not even created in Cyrus' day, but is more recent. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The ] have to be from the last 30 years. ] (]) 23:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC) |
|
I suspect that the article is still infested with wishful thinking, including not only on the part of Iranians but also sympathetic Westerners (such as the British Museum) who champion it as an alleged testament to the "enlightened" nature of Persian monarchy and try to refashion it, like Mohammad Reza, into an instrument of propaganda to counter Islamic fundamentalism and help forge a secular national Iranian identity. But even the most noble goal does not justify falsification of history or fake translations, and certainly not promoting tendentious narratives in Misplaced Pages, however well-intentioned (see ]). (Were it not for petty nationalism, including its white supremacist variants, nobody would give a rat's ass which ethnic group invented or pioneered what, and people would take a global view.) If there are indications that the Cylinder does not even date to Cyrus' reign, this information should not be omitted, even if that may be interpreted as offensive and "Eurocentric" to Iranian editors and readers. --] (]) 13:43, 20 October 2016 (UTC) |
|
In contrast to the articles assertion, the Cyrus cylinder does translate into freeing the 'bonded people' - and this is very commonly accepted to mean freeing slaves. Also their is no archaeological evidence, including the form of records (tokens/cylinder seals) that allude to the existence of slavery in the Achaemenid period. Aside from a passage or two from Herodotus, who was more of a fear mongering politician than a historian, there is a complete lack of archeological or written evidence for slavery in ancient Iran. 2601:882:101:1A0:5FF:EB54:2807:6AFD (talk) 18:46, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
.svg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
