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| == |
== See also ] == | ||
| This article doesn't inform which subjects were suppressed and which ones were invented by the party, eg. the anti-Katyn ''research''.] (]) 13:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| This is the latest name of the disputed myths section. | |||
| :This article doesn't inform which historians were persecuted.] (]) 09:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{cquote| | |||
| A number of specific claims made by Soviet historians and supported by some of their Western colleagues have been disputed by historians ] and ]: | |||
| #'''Contention''': The ] party during the ] was supported by masses, and especially by Russian working class.{{fact|date=October 2009}}<BR> '''Scholarship''': "] only got a quarter of the vote at the height of their popularity in the elections that followed". Massive strikes by Russian workers were "mercilessly" (as Lenin said) suppressed during ] <ref name="reflections"/> | |||
| #'''Contention''': "] was a success, having fulfilled its historical mission to force the rapid industrialization of an undeveloped country". {{fact|date=October 2009}}<BR>'''Scholarship''': "Russia had already been fourth to fifth among industrial economies before World War I."<ref name="reflections"/>. According to Conquest, Russian industrial advances could have been achieved without ], famine or terror. The industrial successes were far less than claimed. The Soviet-style industrialization was "an anti-innovative dead-end" <ref name="reflections"/>. ]'s Research Fellow Paul Gregory also claimed that a non-communist Russia would have ''"produced a contemporary Russian economy not that far removed in affluence from its immediate European neighbors"''<ref>Paul Gregory, ''Russian National Income | |||
| 1885–1913''. Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982</ref> | |||
| #'''Contention''': Mass terror during Stalin ruling was an aberration of the communist system, which resulted from Stalin's personal paranoia and his "]". If only Lenin had been alive, those abuses would have never happened<ref name="Pipes"/>.<BR>'''Scholarship''': It was Lenin who introduced ] with its hostage taking and ]. It was Lenin who developed the infamous ] that was used later during ]. It was Lenin who established the autocratic system within the Communist Party <ref name="Pipes"> ] Communism: A History (2001) ISBN 0-812-96864-6, pages 73-74.</ref> ], when asked who of two leaders was more "severe", replied: "Lenin, of course... I remember how he scolded Stalin for softness and liberalism".<ref name="Pipes"/> | |||
| ⚫ | }} | ||
| == Further reading - obsolete == | |||
| Let's see if we can use this to develop a compromise version on talk, incorporating findings and arguments from above sections. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 19:23, 11 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Many texts listed under Further reading are obsolete. Texts published after 1986 are preferred.] (]) 10:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::The most appropriate section's name should be "Conquest's and Pipes' views of some events of Soviet history". Again, this section belongs to Soviet ''history'', not Soviet ''historiography'', because it presents different versions of some historical events, not how Soviet historiography presents well established and well known facts.--] (]) 21:04, 11 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Although I believe this discussion (as well as the disputable section) belongs to another article, let me quote some other scholarships that contradict to Pipes' statements. After Civil war, when both Red and White terrors were understandable, and before Stalin took full power there were no terror in the USSR. | |||
| :::"''In 1926 a new RSFSR Criminal Code was enacted. This Code also included the death penalty as 'an exceptional measure for the protection of the workers' state', <u>existing only provisionally 'until its abolition</u>'. In the next year, an attempt was made to restrict the application of the death penalty to certain political38 and military crimes and to banditry (Article 167 of the Code). This restrictive policy resulted in a rather sharp decrease in the number of death sentences in the RSFSR from about 0.1% of all sentences in 1922-25 to only 0.03% in 1928. In 1928 about 1.5 million sentences were pronounced in the entire USSR (according to figures given by the criminologist Gernet), which means that the total number of death sentences was <u>probably about 450 as against about 1,200 in 1923 and 1,300 in 1926</u>.''" (The Soviet Union and the Death Penalty. Author(s): Ger P. Van den Berg Source: Soviet Studies, Vol. 35, No. 2 (Apr., 1983), pp. 154-174) | |||
| ::In connection to that, could anyone remind me what was the number of death sentences in the US and the UK during that time? | |||
| ::Pipes' conclusions are ''disputable'', and cannot be presented as examples of debunking of some myths.--] (]) 21:54, 11 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == External links modified == | |||
| ::: Paul, I noticed you changed the source for the quote above. Is Van den Berg the antecedent source for Volobuev and Schutz or was that just a correction? ] ]</font> 03:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I inserted Volobuev by accident: I copypasted it from the wrong article (I was working with two files simultaneously).--] (]) 04:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
| == Silly propaganda == | |||
| I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: | |||
| This article purports to review Soviet-era Russian historical scholarship, but it reads more like an attack piece against Russia with the "historical revisionism" characterization. If the article is supposed to be about Soviet historiography, then it should at least cite Soviet-era sources. There should be a summary of Soviet views on history rather than tendentious distortions. Attempts to show that Soviet historiography is unreliable is not substantiated by a consensus. Virtually all scientific works on Russian history in the English language cite Russian sources, including the Soviet period. | |||
| *Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_news_high_katyn_decision.html | |||
| *Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_news_high_katyn_press.html | |||
| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080611034558/http://www.newseum.org/berlinwall/commissar_vanishes/vanishes.htm to http://www.newseum.org/berlinwall/commissar_vanishes/vanishes.htm | |||
| When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. | |||
| This scholarly work does not conclude that Soviet historiography is reliable, dubious, or of a revisionist type | |||
| {{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} | |||
| ] (]) 02:05, 29 May 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 00:48, 3 April 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Factual inaccuracies == | |||
| == External links modified == | |||
| ''In another example, the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 as well as the Polish-Soviet War of 1919-1920 were censored out or minimized from most publications, and research suppressed, in order to enforce the policy of 'Polish-Soviet friendship'.'' | |||
| Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
| The Polish intervention in the Russian Civil War is discussed at length in Soviet-era volumes on the Civil War. The Soviet Encyclopedia article describes the war as "" <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:40, 29 May 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| <references/> | |||
| I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: | |||
| :You fail to counter the argument. The piece you cite is hardly extensive; it very much falls under "minimized" (not to mention, major biased). --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 20:44, 8 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090523093807/http://document.kremlin.ru/doc.asp?ID=052421 to http://document.kremlin.ru/doc.asp?ID=052421 | |||
| When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. | |||
| == The USSR is not Russia is not the USSR == | |||
| {{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} | |||
| @Kravavi: Do not confuse Russia and the USSR. Saying something "bad" about the USSR (defunct) has <u>'''absolutely no bearing'''</u> on today's Russia, and it genuinely pains me to note the exception, other than the degree to which official Russia chooses to ignore or deny Soviet atrocities. (Which, again, are not Russian atrocities regardless of the position Russia takes.) Not to mention that Soviet encyclopedic accounts of conflicts are often significantly lacking factual basis. In the Soviet Union, history served politics (not my words). ]<small> ►]</small> 21:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 13:32, 4 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Rename == | |||
| == A Statement in the subsection "Reliability of statistical data" == | |||
| {{Requested move/dated|Historiography in the Soviet Union}} | |||
| It is claimed that "The law of large numbers or the idea of random deviation were decried as "false theories"" in the subsection "Reliability of statistical data". | |||
| ] → {{no redirect|1=Historiography in the Soviet Union}} – - unambiguous term (another meaning of "Soviet historiography" is "methodology in the studies of history '''of''' the Soviet Union", while the article talks about "methodology in the studies of history '''in''' the Soviet Union" - two letters but big difference.) ] (]) 15:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| However, since there were numerous statistics and probability theory books published in the Soviet Union during different time periods, it is impossible for this statement to be correct, as the | |||
| *'''Support'''. When I saw the title, I assumed the article would be on "Historiography of the Soviet Union" – this move would add clarity. ] (]) 11:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| law of large numbers, or random deviations are the core of a mathematical statistics or probability theory course. | |||
| *'''Support''' per Jenks ''''']]]<font color="#FF9900">≈≈≈≈</font>''''' 16:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Indeed, one version of the law of large numbers is named after the Soviet mathematician Andrey Kolmogorov. | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. Yes, these are two slightly different subjects. But this article includes (and suppose to include) the Soviet methodology in the studies of history (hence "Soviet historiography"). ] (]) 17:41, 6 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' unambiguity. ] ] 20:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I think the nom is right about the content. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 21:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per ] and ].--] (]) 02:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' until I see a proposal on continued reflection of Soviet methods and direction regarding portrayal of history. That is different from random, officially unguided, practice by historians within the frontiers of the USSR. The title changes the primary thurst of the article. ]<small> ►]</small> 03:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Needs far more discussion of specific Soviet historians and their works == | |||
| == Useful sock edits? == | |||
| Would anyone accept an article on a Western historiographical school, however controversial or discredited, that made almost no mention of the specific texts and historians involved and which spent the vast majority of its wordcount polemicizing against the school? Should the Whig history article be pared down to include only Constitutional History of England? From this article you'd almost think that the Short Course was the only work of Soviet history that ever had any influence or impact. For all the talk about suppression of certain lines of research, this article itself contributes to the continuing suppression of detailed knowledge of Soviet intellectual life. When Robert Conquest is named more times in an article on a socialist historiographical tradition than any historian within that tradition, there is a huge problem. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| I don't usually care who added content; was removed as "edits by sock of Jacob Peters". A quick reads makes the content appear solid, although I cannot say much about the reliability of the ru reference? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 21:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Do you have any specific suggestions? - ] ] 20:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Russian link leads to a wall of text (many pages). I do not see where it tells whatever was quoted. Trusting banned users is a very bad idea. You can restore a copyright violation or worse. Of course you are very welcome to restore anything that can be referenced to English-language RS. ] (]) 02:38, 8 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
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See also Suppressed research in the Soviet Union
This article doesn't inform which subjects were suppressed and which ones were invented by the party, eg. the anti-Katyn research.Xx236 (talk) 13:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
- This article doesn't inform which historians were persecuted.Xx236 (talk) 09:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Further reading - obsolete
Many texts listed under Further reading are obsolete. Texts published after 1986 are preferred.Xx236 (talk) 10:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
External links modified
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080611034558/http://www.newseum.org/berlinwall/commissar_vanishes/vanishes.htm to http://www.newseum.org/berlinwall/commissar_vanishes/vanishes.htm
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A Statement in the subsection "Reliability of statistical data"
It is claimed that "The law of large numbers or the idea of random deviation were decried as "false theories"" in the subsection "Reliability of statistical data". However, since there were numerous statistics and probability theory books published in the Soviet Union during different time periods, it is impossible for this statement to be correct, as the law of large numbers, or random deviations are the core of a mathematical statistics or probability theory course. Indeed, one version of the law of large numbers is named after the Soviet mathematician Andrey Kolmogorov.
Needs far more discussion of specific Soviet historians and their works
Would anyone accept an article on a Western historiographical school, however controversial or discredited, that made almost no mention of the specific texts and historians involved and which spent the vast majority of its wordcount polemicizing against the school? Should the Whig history article be pared down to include only Constitutional History of England? From this article you'd almost think that the Short Course was the only work of Soviet history that ever had any influence or impact. For all the talk about suppression of certain lines of research, this article itself contributes to the continuing suppression of detailed knowledge of Soviet intellectual life. When Robert Conquest is named more times in an article on a socialist historiographical tradition than any historian within that tradition, there is a huge problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.235.165 (talk) 18:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do you have any specific suggestions? - Altenmann >talk 20:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
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