| Revision as of 07:08, 20 August 2023 editSurtsicna (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users131,101 edits →Family tree instead of ahnentafel← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 04:02, 20 October 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,789,403 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 6 WikiProject templates. The article is listed in the level 4 page: France. Remove 1 deprecated parameter: importance.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion |
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{{afd-merged-from|Sophie of France (1786–1787)|Sophie of France (1786–1787)|19 September 2022}} |
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{{Vital article|level=4|topic=People|class=B}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Marie Antoinette Of Austria|1= |
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{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=b|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=High|royalty-work-group=yes|royalty-priority=High|listas=Marie Antoinette Of Austria}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=High|royalty-work-group=yes|royalty-priority=High}} |
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{{WikiProject France|class=b|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Women's History|class=B|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Austria|class=B|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Former countries|class=B|importance=|HRE-taskforce=yes|HRE-taskforce-importance=top}} |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2023 == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Marie Antoinette|answered=yes}} |
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{{edit semi-protected|Marie Antoinette|answered=yes}} |
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Change her full name from "Maria Antoina Josefa Johanna" to "Maria Antonia Josefa Johanna" |
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"As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court; as for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic in spite of the fact that she gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. In spite of her very ample proportions, Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor." |
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(Spelling error in Antonia, the name is spelled correctly in the rest of the article but not right at the start) ] (]) 17:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 13:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2024 == |
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Change to: As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court. As for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic. She gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor. ] (]) 10:41, 18 June 2023 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Marie Antoinette|answered=yes}} |
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So you basically propose to delete "In spite of her very ample proportions ...". I agree, this is insensitive and fat-shaming. ] (]) 14:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC) |
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Please add the categories ], as her father was previously Duke of Lorraine and later Archduke of Austria, and ], as her father was also German King in addition to his other titles. Please also add ], as her mother was also Archduhess of Austria in her own right. ] (]) 16:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:Honestly, I feel like that whole section above could be deleted. While I'm certainly not an expert on Marie Antoinette, I can't see how talking about her 'bearing' is relevant in the slightest - if this is somehow relevant and I'm simply missing context please do correct me though. This section was added ], and the editor who inserted it also made ] - ], would you mind explaining why this content is important? ] (]) 04:14, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:I have decided to be bold and delete the offending phrase. More serious changes may merit discussion. ] (]) 06:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:Done. ] (]) 18:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::FWIW, let's give unprotection a whirl and seeing how it goes after five years. ] (] '''·''' ]) 22:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Hello I simply added the impact of Marie Antoinette on her court and the fashion of her days ; Marie Antoinette life was affected deeply first by her fashion impact ; she was a model in fashion who was followed in all Europe . In addition this was a very important political issue with time , the people of France began to turn on their queen because of her lifestyle and this affected her popularity leading to the French Revolution. |
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If you read any book on Marie Antoinette this was a very important issue for her before the birth of her children. Frankly a controversy over an issue who defined 20 years of the queen life : she was called the queen of fashion in spite that she gained a lot of ample proportions ; I’am simply describing the historical fact and not fat-shaming her but glorifying her as the queen of fashion in history despite her fat (fat is beautiful if you want ) ; but that is not the crux of the matter, it is one line in a whole paragraph. We can’t judge people who live 200 years ago according to our modern standards; their ideas were different than us . This is not an ideological article but an historical one ] (]) 16:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
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To have consensus I agree to the change already made and I hope we can all work together. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:13, 20 June 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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European History is my speciality ; this article is good but It need some sources who are missing. To see how I work I saw in the article of another important queen ] that the establishment of the first colony in North America is not mentioned and the fondation of the Eastern Company for India ; I added both ; here I saw the same problem; a major fact of Marie Antoinette life and impact was missing. |
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Thank you all. |
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] (]) 16:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
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https://www.thecollector.com/marie-antoinette-controversial-fashion-queen/ <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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https://www.itsbeyondmycontrol.com/18th-century-fashion-marie-antoinette-the-queen-of-haute-couture/ <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/history-magazine/article/daily-life-france-fashion-marie-antoinette <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC)</small> ] (]) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
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== Maria Teresa of Austria == |
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https://www.savoirflair.com/fashion/100411/marie-antoinette-inspired-runway-collections |
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] (]) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
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In conclusion I added important new sources here to show the impact of that subject in Marie Antoinette life . This was a very important feature who defined her life for more than a decade with a massive social , political and cultural impact felt all over the world for a long period of time. I think it is worth a new paragraph who should be added to the article. Also it is very important to diversify the sources in that article who depend heavily on Fraser ( A great historian but who should not be the only or even major source of her life ). |
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Thank you all. |
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] (]) 17:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
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Regarding the family tree near the bottom of the page, what is Henrietta of England doing among the ancestors of Louis XV? |
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] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> removing from edit request backlog until there's a clearer consensus about what changes to make. (My unsolicited opinion is that if any of the material is to remain, it be rewritten to be more encyclopedic and with inline attribution to Fraser as he is apparently the sole source of it.) ] (]) 19:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC) |
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Louis XIV's wife was Maria Teresa of Spain, mother of the Grand Dauphin (Louis XV's grandfather). As daughter of Felipe IV of Spain, Maria Teresa was also the niece of Louis XIV's mother, a daughter of Felipe III and halfsister of Felipe IV)... the present family tree does away with the cause of the war for Spanish Succession (Queen Anne's War, in the tradition of US historians) and gets rid of all the Spanish line of Bourbons that reaches until today!! |
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Henrietta was Louis XIV's sister in law!! ] (]) 19:18, 24 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== RFC: Ancestry == |
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{{Closed rfc top|There is consensus to '''include''' the ancestry section. <small>(])</small> ] (] | ]) @ 20:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)}} |
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I proposed the inclusion of {{tlx|ahnentafel}} in "ancestry" section (with reliable and non-trivial sources, but only can extend to great-grandparents) for this article, which had been removed last ], and another one in ], {{tq|for these names of the subject's great-great-grandparents are trivial, but ].}} |
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{{ahnentafel |
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|title=Ancestors of Marie Antoinette |
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|ref=<ref>{{cite book|title=Les ancêtres de Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche | trans-title=The ancestors of Marie Antoinette of Austria |year=2006 |publisher=Editions généalogique de la Voûte |location=Paris |language=fr |ISBN=9782847663266}}</ref> |
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|1= 1. '''Marie Antoinette''' <!-- Please do not add "Queen of France". The title of the article is Marie Antoinette, so it's well known that the woman mentioned here as Marie Antoinette is Queen Marie Antoinette of France. Besides, her ancestresses do not have marital titles included in the ahnentafel. --> |
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|2= 2. ] |
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|3= 3. ] of Austria |
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|4= 4. ] |
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|5= 5. ] |
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|6= 6. ] |
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|7= 7. ] |
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|8= 8. ] |
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|9= 9. ] |
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|10= 10. ] |
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|11= 11. ] |
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|12= 12. ] |
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|13= 13. ] |
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|14= 14. ] |
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|15= 15. ] |
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}} |
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] (]) 07:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support inclusion''' I don't see how this is trivia. Genealogy is important for the understanding of the interconnectedness of European states at the time. And given how Marie Antoinette ended it is also relevant to reactions of other states to the French revolution. Also a lot of articles have these and I believe that a lot of people expect this information to be available in the article. ] (]) 14:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' For reasons above. I dont think the information is trivial, especially for someone of Marie Antionettes status. ] (]) 00:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support inclusion''' ] is not trivia, it is a core element of history. ] (]) 02:55, 16 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support inclusion''', genealogy of members of ruling houses isn't trivia, but an important piece of information.] (]) 07:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support inclusion'''. Genealogy is central to understanding historic European royals and their interests. If this was an article about some scientist or popstar then we might dismiss their hitherto-unknown grandparents as trivia, but when they're Holy Roman Emperors, and when that ancestry led directly to Marie Antoinette's role in life (and her notability), that would be foolish. ] (]) 20:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' The genealogy of nobles and royal families is significant. On the other hand, I don't have an informed opinion about this template in particular. --] (]) 21:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' From the genealogical WikiProject page: {{tq|"While Misplaced Pages is not and never was intended as a genealogy software, this area may still be further improved. Nearly all royalty articles include a section of brief ancestry, as well as a list of spouse(s) and issue."}} Seems to me that Marie Antoinette can indisputably claim generational data on her page. ] (]) 22:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' Can the ancestry table can be referenced with ]? I have my doubts about Mathieu Delaunay's(author of the source presented by the IP), reliability. --] (]) 23:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*:This 18th-century genealogy book {{lang|fr|Genealogie ascendante jusqu'au quatrieme degre inclusivement de tous les Rois et Princes de maisons souveraines de l'Europe actuellement vivans}} has been outdated, and replace with a recent version of {{lang|fr|Les ancêtres de Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche}} (see above). ] (]) 12:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''', I think it would be useful and not trivial.--] (]) 06:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{Closed rfc bottom}} |
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== Last Words == |
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The source for Marie Antoinette's last words on this article is a clickbait listicle which gives no source. I have tracked this quote down to Marie Antoinette: The Journey (2001), by Antonia Frasier (ISBN-13: 9780385489492), p. 580. No source is given in the book itself for this quote, which I find distressing considering how pervasive these supposed last words have become. In the Memoirs of the Sansons, Vol. II (1876), by Henri Sanson (ISBN-13: 978-1172710188), p. 56, Henri Sanson records the last words of Marie Antoinette as "Farewell, my children; I am going to join your father." |
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I see no reason why an unsourced quote in a random online article should be allowed as a valid source. And even beyond that, I see no reason why an unsourced quote written in a book over 200 years after the death of Marie Antoinette occurred is allowed to persist at all on Misplaced Pages as the purported last words of such a significant historical figure. Fraser's book is a tertiary source (and that is a generous evaluation on my part) which contains no reference whatsoever to any contemporary recordings of this quote. Henri Sanson's records are a secondary source that draw from the diary and notes of Charles-Henri Sanson, the man who put Antoinette to death himself, and his own experiences on the scaffold during the First French Republic. The conclusion I have come to many months after first discovering this discrepancy is that the last words of Antoinette currently on this article are a balatant fabrication by Fraser. Past that, Fraser's book is not even cited on this article. From where does "thoughtcatalogue.com" get any credence? The article on that site does not reference any sources at all. Anyone with a lick of experience on the internet can see that this "Famous Last Words" article was designed from the ground up to only draw in ad revenue. |
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The currently listed last words of Antoinette do garner a lot of sympathy, but it is unjustifiably gained. As Sanson relates in the memoirs, any real sympathy should come from the fact that this woman was forced into her position as queen and lost her husband and all of her children within such a short period of time. But that is enough for me, and I see no reason why clearly fabricated last words should be used to bring her any more sympathy than the awful circumstances of her life should evoke in any human. ] (]) 07:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC) |
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== Family tree instead of ahnentafel == |
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While everyone, including me, is in agreement that ''genealogy is relevant'', I question the choice of information presented here. Biographies of Marie Antoinette abound, and a survey of those cited in the article shows that they do not present genealogy in the form of an ahnentafel. Instead they use charts that include siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins, and illustrate Marie Antoinette's relationship to Louis XVI and the French royal family. Therefore I propose replacing the ahnentafel with a chart modelled after those found in the biographies of Marie Antoinette. ] (]) 02:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC) |
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Here is an example modelled after the family tree from Fraser's biography of Marie Antoinette: |
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<div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; overflow:auto; width: 90%;"> |
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{{chart top |width=100%|Family tree after Fraser, illustrating the Bourbon-Habsburg-Lorraine connections}} |
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{{Tree chart/start |style= line-height:100% |align=center |
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}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |Louis|Louis=]}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|^|-|-|-|.|}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |Leopold| |Louis| |Henrietta|j|Philip|j|-|-|-|-|-|-|v|Liselotte|Leopold=]|Louis=]|Philip=]|Liselotte=]|Henrietta=]}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|^|-|-|-|-|*|-|-|-|-|*|-|-|-|*|-|-|.| | | |!|}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | | |Joseph| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |D|~|~|~|~|J| | | |:| |Charles| |Liselotte|v|Leo|Joseph=]|Charles=]|grandson=<small>great-grandson</small>|Liselotte=]|Leo=]<!---<br><small>Duke of Lorraine--->}} |
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{{chart |border=0| |,|-|-|-|-|-|^|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | | | | |Marie|v|Louis| | | | | | | | |:| | |!| | | | | |!||Louis=]|Marie=]}} |
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{{chart |border=0|Amalia|v|Charles| | | |Josepha|v|August| | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | |:| | |!| | | | | |!|Amalia=]|Josepha=]|Louis=]|Charles=]|August=]}} |
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{{chart |border=0| |,|-|^|-|.| | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | |!| | |Mesdames| |Louise| | | | | | |:| |Theresa|-|v|-|Francis|Mesdames='']''|Louise=]|Theresa=]|Francis=]}} |
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{{chart |border=0|Josepha| |MaxJos| |Clemens| |Albert| |Josephe|v|Louis| | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | |:| | | | | |!|Josepha=]<br><small>m. {{nowrap|Joseph II}}|MaxJos=]|Clemens=]|Albert=]<br><small>m. Maria Christina|Josephe=]|Louis=]|Louise=]}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | |Isabella| |Ferdinand| |Luisa| |Philip| | | | |!|Isabella=]<br><small>m. {{nowrap|Joseph II}}|Ferdinand=]<br><small>m. Maria Amalia|Luisa=]|Philip=]}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|.| | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|v|-|-|v|-|-|-|.|}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | |Provence| |Artois| |Clotilde| |Elisabeth| |Louis|-|Antonia| |Joseph| |Christina| |Leopold| |Amalia| |Carolina| |Ferdinand| |Max|Joseph=]|Christina=]|Leopold=]|Amalia=]|Carolina=]|Ferdinand=]|Antonia=''']'''|Max=]|Louis=''']'''|Provence=]|Artois=]|Clotilde=]|Elisabeth=]}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!|}} |
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{{chart |border=0| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |Francis|Francis=]}} |
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{{chart/end}} |
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<div style="text-align:left;"> |
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'''Notes:''' |
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Solid lines indicate parent-child relationship, while dashed lines represent more distant ancestor-descendant connections. |
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</div> |
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{{chart bottom}} |
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</div> |
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:*'''Support''' - for this & all monarch/consort bios. ] (]) 04:16, 20 August 2023 (UTC) |
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Change her full name from "Maria Antoina Josefa Johanna" to "Maria Antonia Josefa Johanna"
(Spelling error in Antonia, the name is spelled correctly in the rest of the article but not right at the start) 77.191.21.33 (talk) 17:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Regarding the family tree near the bottom of the page, what is Henrietta of England doing among the ancestors of Louis XV?
Louis XIV's wife was Maria Teresa of Spain, mother of the Grand Dauphin (Louis XV's grandfather). As daughter of Felipe IV of Spain, Maria Teresa was also the niece of Louis XIV's mother, a daughter of Felipe III and halfsister of Felipe IV)... the present family tree does away with the cause of the war for Spanish Succession (Queen Anne's War, in the tradition of US historians) and gets rid of all the Spanish line of Bourbons that reaches until today!!
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Done