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Revision as of 02:44, 24 April 2007

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The Word Contentious needs to go if BLP's going to be enforced the way it is

Right now, there are folks who are claiming that emails from Jimbo give them the right to remove ALL unsourced information from articles, whether or not it's contentious.

The policy currently states several times,Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Attribution, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source.

However, folks are claiming BLP gives them a inborn right to do things like this, where the material involved is not contentious at all. I will not call it vandalism, because obviously they think the policy gives them that ability, but this policy needs to be followed better either way (can you imagine what the Bill Clinton article looked like if this "Uber-BLP" policy was followed to the letter? Either remove the word contentious from the policy, and let the articles be eviscerated and be rebuilt, or bring back BLP to what it says in the policy. SirFozzie 21:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

While blanking like that is bad, material should still be sourced per WP:V. BLP doesn't justify removing it - the editor who objects should put citation needed tags on the material that is in doubt or an overall citation tag at the top of the page, then allow time for editors to add sources. Unsourced material should be deleted after a time, but not immediately if it's not controversial stuff. While a huge blanking like that should be reverted, you should make an effort to find sources for the material as well, or at least restore the material with {{fact}} tags. --Minderbinder 21:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That's been tried, the user in question, User:Burntsauce is claiming that letters from Jimbo Wales trump the BLP policy and has basically done that to a lot of articles. When the material is restored, doesn't matter if it's been fact tagged, he reblanks it per BLP. I know the WP:PW folks are trying their hardest to get this sorted and sourced, but the person in question is refusing to either work with them, or restore it with fact tags. SirFozzie 21:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If he's revert warring and continually blanking major portions of pages, that's probably grounds to go to an admin and see what they say, it may be a situation where a block for disruption is appropriate. If you can't get a solution that way, you might want to try a user request for comment. This doesn't seem like a problem with the policy - it seems like regardless of how it might be worded, this editor just seems intent on ignoring (or misreading) it as well as ignoring consensus. In the meantime, I assume there's enough of a consensus to revert the blanking, although the sooner sources can be added, the better. --Minderbinder 22:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That's part of the problem, some admins are praising him for his assiduousness in BLP enforcement. SirFozzie 22:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

When it comes to the biography of a living person, sources must be provided ... PERIOD. Jimbo's word in this situation is law because its his reputation (as well as the foundations) on the line (and all over the news) when the lawsuit hits. This sort of unsourced commentary is why WP:OFFICE was established. Ask Danny, i'm pretty sure he'd back up the removal of unsourced commentary in the biography of a living person who could sue. Jimbo's commentary here is quite explicit as to what needs to be done. Stop pestering Burntsauce, stop bitching at me, stop the random "lets change the policy" bullshit. Burntsauce is doing what needs to be done, instead how about you get off your ass and start finding some RELIABLE SOURCES so the content doesnt need to be removed? --Alkivar 22:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well not so much because Jimbo says, but because it is the right thing to do. Which is, of course, why he said it. Um yes. I think I'll shut up now, as we seem to be pretty much in agreement. --Tony Sidaway 23:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Fine, Then change the BLP policy to state that, period? I'm just following what the page says. Ok? SirFozzie 22:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No. This policy does not stand alone. You need to comply and follow WP:NPOV and WP:V as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Burnstsauce is ignoring th policy, how is that doing what needs to be done? Especially since he refuses to discuss the situation with the Pro Wrestling Wikiproject. Fozzie is right, and Burnt should at least discuss it at WP:PW if he is going to ignor policy and blank tons of articles. 22:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

TJ, drop it, it's not worth the high blood pressure from it. If that's what the policy will be treated as (never mind what it was before all of this, because it's superseded apparently by Jimbo), then we have to deal with the way things are, not the way things ought to be. And no one was complaining about WP:V, or WP:NPOV. Look at every blanking. It's all BLP all the time, when that was NOT what the policy said. Anyway, I'm going to take my own advice and drop it. SirFozzie 22:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Looking at a specific example: earlier Burnt blanked Buff Bagwell which had been tagged as having no sources since February. While I don't agree with the blanking, the end result is that someone did put in the work and add sources to the article. Why can't sources just be added to the info in Skandor Akbar, which has been tagged as having no sources since December? --Minderbinder 23:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There are thousands and thousands of wrestling related articles, and some have a higher priority than others. Bagwell is not in the spotlight anymore and was never more than a mid-card wrestler. So he wasn't a high priority. Same thing with Akbar. TJ Spyke 00:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Low priority articles about living people which do not contain any reliable sources, and have been requesting sources for weeks (or months) should most likely be stubbed to prevent further embarrassment to the project. Yamaguchi先生 01:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

So adding sources to articles about living people isn't a priority for WP:PW, yet edit warring and arguing about whether "four way" has a hyphen is? I went through Category:American professional wrestlers up to the letter 'H', and over 90% of the article were unsourced or had no inline references. Some of the members of WP:PW have shown contempt for policies for too long in my opinion. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean "show contempt"? If Burnstsauce wants to help Misplaced Pages, he can aid us in sourcing articles rather than misinterpeting BLP and blanking articles (since BLP says to remove contentious material, not all material). TJ Spyke 05:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems a shame that some editors are more concerned with blanking and deleting than with bothering to help find references, but it all depends on one's perspective on the word "contribution" I guess. But anyway. Will I have the full backing of the Misplaced Pages community if I go ahead and apply BLP to the likes of Bill Clinton, Robert DeNiro and Babe Ruth? Or will I be recipient of a censure because they're not pro-wrestling articles? ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹ 17:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Suriel, I wouldn't do that, ESPECIALLY since you've brought it up here, WP:POINT would hit you. SirFozzie 17:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why BLP wouldn't be applied on those articles. If there's unsourced controversial info, it should go immediately. And if there's info that needs a source, it certainly can be tagged and then deleted later if a source isn't provided although I suspect any source requests would be filled quickly on those articles. While BLP talks about contentious material, any uncited material, particularly material that has had a request for a citation that isn't filled can be deleted per WP:V. And unlike Bill Clinton which has over forty citations, Skandor_Akbar has zero even though a source request tag has been on the article for months. While blanking isn't the best way to handle an article, sadly in this case it looks like many of these articles may never get citations unless someone forces the issue like that. --Minderbinder 17:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the change that made removal of non-contentious material as urgent as contentious material. This is clearly not in accordance with long standing policy and Jimbo's writing on this issue and seems to be instruction creep. Any poorly-sourced or unsourced non-contentious material can either be removed, or tagged as {{fact}} and removed after a few days if no proper source if found, just like in any other article, and the removal is subject to 3RR. If there is any negative aspect to the item in question, or if the subject objects to it, it is almost by definition contentious, and falls under the contentious material exclusion. Crum375 20:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"Show contempt" refers to the fact that from what I've seen, well over 90% of articles about American wrestlers were not properly sourced, and unsourced content continued to be added to them on a weekly basis. That has improved over the last couple of weeks admittedly, as a direct result of the stubbing of articles it has to be said. As Minderbinder states the issue has been forced, and the result is that articles are now being sourced. So in my opinion editors' time would be better employed sourcing the articles rather than arguing about the blanking. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that side anymore, ONiH, I just made the removal of the word contentious prevented a situation like this to prevent something like this from happening again. A lot of the information being removed was NOT contentious (as the policy states), but as was strongly pointed out to me above, it doesn't have to be contentious (like a list of wrestlers Skandor Akbar managed) to be removed, it just has to be unsourced. Anyway, I did my WP:BRD and will leave it alone. SirFozzie 20:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I know Fozzie, I was replying to TJ. I still think something positive has come out of this, although it could have been handled more diplomatically to begin with instead of the bull in a china shop approach. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yet another modest proposal

I have argued long about the notability creep which, due to the infinite space in Misplaced Pages, allows the notability theshhold for living person biography to fall so low that eventually every one of us who does anything notable which is recorded in any local or verifiable source, will have our own personal bio stubs in Misplaced Pages, like it or not. I have proposed that bios be subject to approval by the living subject: the rule being "Accept present Wiki rules for your bio, or simply notify Misplaced Pages that you decline to be bio'ed at all." But this proposal has met with resistance by people who cannot stand the idea of no Wiki at all for a Bill Clinton or a George W. Bush. Okay. Fine. So now, I propose a more modest version: No wiki-bio without consent of the living subject, for anybody who is not ALREADY bio'ed in a standard paper encyclopedia. If they're famous enough or notable enough for THAT, they don't need to give consent. Otherwise, they do. That should stop notability creep dead in its tracks, and make Angela Beesley a happy woman, and Daniel Brandt(name corrected by User:SqueakBox) a happy man. What say you? SBHarris 01:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Disagree (btw, it's Daniel Brandt, not David :D).. We already have Notability standards (the focus of third party, Reliably sourced articles). This is notability creep in the other direction. SirFozzie 01:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that notability creep is going in the other direction and am not sure if this good as there are far more people who want an article than there are people who dont and we are syupposed to be the encyclopedia of everything, SqueakBox 01:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

If notability creep is going in the other direction, that would mean there are fewer and fewer biographies of living persons on WP each day. Are you claiming this? Support it with facts. My proposal, BTW, would also get rid of vanity biographies; leave that for Who's Who. WIkipedia was never supposed to be an encyclopedia of everything: see WP:NOT for the many things it's not an encylopedia of. Personal information on non-famous people would merely be one more addition to an already long list. At present, Misplaced Pages has stringent rules about self-promotion of either companies or persons, UNTIL the self-promotion becomes successful elsewhere. Then it's okay. There's something very odd or perverse about that, especially when it's combined with standards that allow profiling of people who would rather remain unprofiled. SBHarris 01:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

What I meant is that the criteria to have a bio here is getting harder, it may be that there are more bios because many failing the new criteria are slipping through the ropes but, eg, we didnt have BLP until reklatively recently and this a a trend I observe. As a side pouint there are IMO tens of thousands of notable people who dont have a bio here, mostly people notable in the Third World. I dont think the paper encyclopedia bit is even a starter but there is a core of good idea. Write an essay in the Misplaced Pages: space? SqueakBox 01:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll reframe and say wikipedia is about everything considered notable and sourceable, SqueakBox 01:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

But that isn't true! MicroSoft's ads for their latest software are notable and sourcable, but there's no rightful place for them on Misplaced Pages. I will note, of course, that "product user information" which is little indistinguishable from advertising can wind up on Misplaced Pages by indirect means, very much as political "press releases" (propaganda) wind up in your local paper, as "news". So there's an "ad creep" on Misplaced Pages, too. But one problem to be addressed at a time, and one nasty problem doesn't justify another. At least ad creap is by contrast less harmful to individuals than bio and notability creep. SBHarris 01:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Such a proposal may be controversial but I would encourage you to go for it but I think you need some other level of notability than a paper encyclopedia, SqueakBox 01:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a better suggestion. Misplaced Pages isn't supposed to be a loose collection of information about the world and links to blogs, but if you go outside of other enclyclopedias and printed material which maintains restraint and accuracy by virtue of publishing costs, that's pretty much what you run into. Can't have it both ways.SBHarris 02:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

If we get to open this debate up hopefully other people will have better ideas than a paper encyclopedia, and opening this up is what I would encourage (and what you are doing), SqueakBox 02:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, SBHarris, and have already proposed it on the mailing list. Either a no-first-biography principle, or an opt-out clause for borderline notables. There was a mixed response. SlimVirgin 01:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

IMO a policy proposal on opting out possibility from having a bio for non-public figures would be a good idea, SqueakBox 01:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

You have good intentions, but the specifics you've proposed so far are impractical. I have yet to hear a proposal that would actually make a useful deliniation and not end up with the same arguments we have right now. It seems like you'd either leave out people who are public figures and should be in, or still end up having minor people who don't want to be mentioned here. --Minderbinder 10:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea. Frise 02:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

You will absolutely never get consensus on allowing people to opt-out. This has been discussed over and over and over. It will never pass. We already have guidelines for notability, if you think they are too loose in particular respects those *specific* aspects should be taken up. If someone puts themselves into the news because they are a media whore, then they are fair game. End of story. :) Wjhonson 05:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Each time it gets discussed it gets a little bit closer. One day we'll get there. Soon, I hope. Frise 06:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, anybody such as your example, can easily remove themselves from the spotlight by simply stepping down from public and widely known positions and functions. They create their own situation, it's disengenious to complain about it now. Wjhonson 05:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Editors often dig up 40-year-old information on people so they can add it to an article. Dropping out of sight for a while isn't going to cut it. Frise 06:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't feed the troll if you can help it. It's a very good proposal, sane and reasonable. Absolutely no hope of passing here then. Grace Note 05:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like good research. Infodmz 15:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If one person did it, we'd call it stalking. Frise 21:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

What constitutes a need for a BLP check?

There is a minor discussion going on over at the talk page of the article Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom murder about the necessity to have the BLP Check tag on the page. If a few more voices would like to come over and add their two cents so we can get a bigger picture of what the consenus here is, that'd be good. 72.69.111.117 00:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hal Holbrook

I am going to see him in his role as Mark Twain and wanted comments. At his age is his performance as I hope - Let me know what you think?

Felix

By all accounts he's still great. It's just that it only takes him 45 minutes to put on the makeup now, rather than the many hours it took when he did it first :) . SBHarris 16:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The subject vs. "verifiable source" in BLP.

Here's from today's New York Times corrections:

An article on Tuesday about the struggles of St. Louis in the wake of a population decline misspelled the surname of an assistant professor at Washington University who has been involved in municipal planning projects. He is John Hoal, not Haul.

This isn't the only NYT correction for the day, and every day has a list of corrections for previous issues. Nor is there any reason to believe that these are comprehensive. Anybody who has had any extensive dealing with journalists (10 interviews or more, which for example, I've had) knows that it's rare to see a major article about any subject you know about, which doesn't contain a major error which never goes corrected. This goes for major papers of major cities.

Now, this is a problem. Mr. Hoal may have got his name fixed, but nothing says the NYT had to correct it. If it hadn't, he'd have been stuck claiming his name his Hoal, not Haul, and in a dispute it would (in theory) have been his personal word as a Wiki editor (who has no way to verify his identity), against a well-sourced source like the New York Times. This happens ALL the time. It's not rare. It happens because editors trust overworked journalists who don't fact-check entire articles with article-subjects, and because there's very little penalty to newpapers which make mistakes. There really isn't. Much of what the NYT prints as errors, are designed to suggest to the pubic that they catch ALL errors at this level of detail. Wrong. They don't. Misplaced Pages policy doesn't really address this unbalance. Changes in this Wiki recently (See the change by WAS 450 recently in the history) suggests they don't intend to. WAS 450, I see you have little experience with being interviewed by the press. Write about what you know, please. Jimbo Wales, YOU have certainly had enough contact with the press to know I'm dead-on right about their general accuracy. Which doesn't somehow magically improve when it comes to information about living persons. So I'd like to have YOUR comment for the record on "newspaper vs subject" fact disputes in BLP issues. SBHarris 16:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Both "published reliable sources" (eg New York Times) and experts with a conflict of interest (eg the subject of a wikipedia bio) get stuff wrong. We can't just change properly sourced material every time the subject of a bio says "no, that's wrong." WAS 4.250 18:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not? Since the source is the ultimate expert about himself and his own life, he's FAR more likely to be correct than is the journalistic squibbing of your "verified published source." This is one very acute example of the fact that there ARE objective experts on certain subjects, in this world. I'm a objective expert regarding me and my life. Nobody else knows it better. Misplaced Pages may have a general policy that there's no such thing as objective "truth," but on that, Misplaced Pages is simply wrong. (Show me the man who says he doesn't believe in objective reality and truth, but who does have a driver's licence and uses it, and remains alive, and I'll show you a liar). Regarding the question of my own expertise on my own life, if it's a question of my honesty vs. somebody else's mistake in print, there are ways to clear that up without resorting to having two more people print the "truth" (something more verifiable or citable). Misplaced Pages will not admit that, however, because that (again) gets into the sticky question of whether objective "truth" exists, outside of what people print. Which is a damn silly mire to be stuck in, but Misplaced Pages put itself there, with its own philosophies. I'm not responsible for this foolishness. SBHarris 18:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're proposing. We base our articles on sources. It is possible for those sources to be wrong. It is possible that a person to see an article about themself with a mistake and fix it. But it's also possible for a person to see a statement about themself that is correct and sourced, but they just don't want in the article. How would you propose we tell the difference? And to be honest, people do misremember some details of their own life sometimes. There are also differences of wording, where the subject may prefer to use different terms to describe something than the sources use, should we let them write their own "autobiography"? --Minderbinder 18:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Though flawed, it would be a better (and overall more acurate) solution than having other people write a biography about them, without their input or editing. Everything you say about the falability of individuals about their own lives, applies IN SPADES to their falibility in writing about other people's lives. Perfection is not available, so you pick the best alterantive. Autobio is here the best alternative. Autobio upgraded by more objective records is even better, provided that such records are not mere paper re-creations of the flawed processes that produce an autobio (ie, some reporter's memory of a phone interview.). But if it gets published in a big newspaper, you can get exactly that bias. Really, you need to interact with real, live, professional journalists on a few stories to understand just how bad and careless they are about facts, as opposed to (say) scientists and engineers. If you haven't had this direct experience, I really can't educate you about it. SBHarris 18:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

So I guess you're just proposing allowing people to edit articles about themselves? And in the case of edit disputes, the subject gets the final say? And what do you propose if the subject writes a biased or inaccurate article, or do you consider that an acceptable outcome. For the record, while people are discouraged from writing about themselves, they certainly can give input on the article talk page, as well as request corrections via a couple other avenues. --Minderbinder 18:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If someone removes information from an article about themselves, claiming that it's inaccurate, I would say to give them the benefit of the doubt. If there's a dispute and the information appears to be well-sourced, well, move the statement to Talk, and figure it out. But keep in mind that newspapers and magazines get stuff wrong all the time. I was just talking to a writer the other day, who'd sent a manuscript to a magazine, and the magazine's editor chopped it around, making it look like the article's author was quoted as saying something which was never in the original manuscript. For Misplaced Pages's purposes, I agree that if the subject has a reasonable protest, that it's better to not include the information at all, than to possibly be including something that's inaccurate. --Elonka 20:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

So following that philosophy, if Bill Clinton went to Bill Clinton and removed all info about Monica and impeachment, saying it's "inaccurate", you'd leave it out? See why that could lead to some pretty bad articles? --Minderbinder 20:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Who is Monica? Bus stop 20:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I bet the article Bill Clinton will answer your question. --Minderbinder 20:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. There is too much risk of the subjects lying to white wash negative information about themselves. We should stick with the published sources. The subject can publish a rebuttal (even on a blog if that is all they have) and we can cite that along with the original source. If the subject of the article wants to validate their identity (E.g. with a notarized statement) we might be able to include their rebuttal without it being published elsewhere, but that is as far as we should go. Johntex\ 20:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The notarized statement mechanism should indeed be in place, but isn't. And when it's used, it should trump any single-source journalistic report, since it's one person's word against another's. The situation described by myself and Elonka above is VERY common. Indeed, I would say probably it's the usual case in news articles. SBHarris 21:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It is in place, please see WP:OFFICE. People can contact the Wikimedia foundation with proof of their identiry. Johntex\ 21:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Read WP:OFFICE carefully. It's a temporary and semi-emergent action taken where some NPOV has been alleged in regard to some BLP, and intended to fix things until wiki-procedure ferrets this out. But there's nothing in WP:OFFICE to suggest that if the NYT gets the facts of your life wrong, it ever will be fixed, long term. There's nothing in there that promises that you can send them a notarized and witnessed statement, and they'll fix it forever. Nada. Read it again. Quote to show I'm wrong. SBHarris 02:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Responding to the "Clinton" analogy: If the Monica story were just breaking, and Clinton went to the article and pulled out all the information saying it was inaccurate, I'd say move it to talk, get a consensus that the sources were reliable, and allow Clinton to state why he felt that the information was inaccurate. If he said, "A magazine misquoted me," I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But if he was insisting that every independent reliable source was getting it wrong, then I think that would make his claim less reasonable. In other words, I'm saying that if an article subject disputes our information, it should be our responsibility to temporarily remove the information while we triple-check our sources, do our best to hear the subject's reasoning, and ensure consensus to re-add the information, rather than us insisting on keeping potentially false information in an article over the subject's objections. If it's a big enough story, the truth will emerge -- we're not trying to "scoop" the world here, we're trying to get it right, and if that takes time, so be it. --Elonka 21:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

We are after what is verifiable, not what is true. We report what others have reported, and we attribute them as our source. They need to go take it up with the primary source, not with Misplaced Pages. Johntex\ 21:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Despite this very policy saying that the subject can be used as a source? So if in the above example the subject said his name was wrong on say his own website, you'd wait until the other source changed it as well? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't say that. If sources conflict, you cite both sources. Example, "The New York Times said that the chairman of Allerca had been in jail for fraud, though he states that he was actually jailed for "contempt of court" during his trial and that he was later acquitted of the fraud." When reputable sources conflict, we cite both sources. If we have 10 sources to 1, we can generally ignore the 1 source that differs. Johntex\ 21:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) I'm not talking about major changes, I'm talking about minor changes. Contrary to what WAS 4.250 says, we can change sourced material if the subject says "no, that's wrong", depending on the nature of the material. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, for minor changes that is true. For instance, if the reliable source says that someone has 3 children, and they really have 4, they may not want their fourth child to feel left out. There is no reason for the subject to lie about that. It is not like they are denying negative information or trying to insert positive information. It is a neutral, minor change. In that case we could allow the change. Johntex\ 21:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

If there is a published source where the person says they had 4 children then we can quote that. Otherwise, we might delete the "3" or add qualifiers like "As of (date) (source) claims (subject) had 3 kids". WAS 4.250 00:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Suggested Wordsmithing

1. "The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability"

   Change "if" to "only if". Perhaps also clarify that criticism should receive space proportional to its relevance, notability, and the size of the rest of the article -- so a stub shouldn't include any but the most widely-known criticism.

2. under the section on subjects that are not public figures: "editors should exercise restraint and include only information relevant to their notability."

   change "exercise restraint" to "exercise restraint, keep the article as brief as possible," -- it isn't just about restraint, it is about balance. It's not helpful to include all information relevant to someone's borderline notability, for instance -- include a quantity of information proportional to the notability; else you have a slippery slope where almost any information can be shoe-horned in; in particular, criticisms of a person's life tend to be sticky and to attach to everything they have done.

+sj + 21:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed addition to BLP

Jimbo suggested some possibilities for slight changes to BLP on the wikipedia mail list to help with semi-notable people cases and Brandt has come up with a variation that seems to deserve a community evaluation. Brandt's proposal is: "Any deletion request initiated by the subject of a biography would automatically require the AfD "keep" voters to specifically state why the subject is notable under that definition. The "delete" voters need not state anything at all. If the "keep" voters cannot make a reasonable statement, then it does not qualify as a legitimate vote to "keep" but instead is discarded as if that User had never bothered to vote at all." This seems workable to me. I believe it would be an improvement to BLP. 4.250.201.139 11:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC) (User talk:WAS 4.250)

How about re-evaluating this? Crum375 11:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe something like this: BLP article deletion voting standards:

1. If the person is in a standard encyclopedia: Not deleted no matter what the vote.
2. If the person is legally a public person: Keeping the article is the default and it takes a consensus to delete.
3. If the person is not legally a public person and all notable encyclopedic non-tabloid claims can not be moved to a single other article: Redirect and the content moved if
   1. 50 % or more vote other than keep
   2. 40 % or more vote other than keep and the subject of the article requests deletion
4. If the person is not legally a public person and all notable encyclopedic non-tabloid claims can be moved to a single other article: Redirect to that other article and the content moved no matter what the vote.
5. If the article lacks current BLP standard for existance: Deleted no matter what the vote. WAS 4.250 18:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this proposal is unnecessarily complex, relies too heavily on arbitrarily selected vote thresholds, requires us to make legal determinations we don't have the authority or expertise to make, and provides insufficient flexibility for odd cases. —ptk✰fgs 03:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Reversing the presumption in favor of retention

I suggested a few months ago that we should simply reverse the usual presumption in favor of retention when it comes to BLP deletions. Jimbo has expressed some support for this on the mailing list. It would be a very simple step forward. For example:

When the biography of a living person is submitted for deletion, whether at the request of the subject or not, the usual presumption in favor of retention is reversed. That is, if there is no consensus to keep the BLP in the opinion of the closing admin, the article will be deleted.

After deletion, any admin may choose to protect the page against recreation and to courtesy-blank the deletion debate. Any subsequent deletion review that fails may also be blanked as a courtesy.

Any thoughts? SlimVirgin 20:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Too easily gamed. Nominate someone with little, but clear, notability, obscure consensus with meatpuppetry... oops, now it has to be deleted. -Amarkov moo! 22:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Articles can be gamed now. With or without the change, people "gaming" articles would focus on the ones that are kind of borderline. This change would help to eliminate borderline articles that right now are generally kept only by default due to messy AfD's. —ptk✰fgs 22:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Amarkov, anything can be gamed with sock or meatpuppets; the closing admins look out for it. SlimVirgin 23:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd need to think about it a little more, but my first reaction is that I like it. ElinorD (talk) 23:04, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

And my reaction after a night's sleep, and after thinking about it a bit more and reading comments here and Jimbo's post on the mailing list is that I like it even more. I'm quite confident that admins would look out for meatpuppets, and would use their common sense. I can't think there's the remotest possibility that this would bring about a deletion of George W. Bush or Pope Benedict XVI. ElinorD (talk) 08:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's Jimbo's post to the mailing list for those who haven't seen it. SlimVirgin 23:04, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Do it. Do it. This is all we need. - David Gerard 23:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I like KISS solutions. Crum375 00:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This will solve many problems. Jayjg 00:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

So Ann Coulter gets ten or twenties cronies to vote to delete her article and it goes? That makes no sense to me. Wjhonson 03:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Admins would be on the lookout for meatpuppets just as they are now. SlimVirgin 04:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose because as currently proposed George W. Bush would get his article deleted if he wants it so and thus it would be a huge restriction on our ability to be an encyclopedia, SqueakBox 03:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Squeak, with respect, that's absurd. SlimVirgin 04:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Well okay but my basic premise, that this is not the way to do it, isnt abusurd, SqueakBox 04:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You haven't said why. That someone very powerful could drum up dozens of meatpuppets isn't an argument because they could do that as things stand if they were determined enough, and the closing admin would spot it and discard the votes. What are your other arguments? SlimVirgin 04:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

My first impression is no, I don't like it that much, especially in the typical AfD that doesn't pull in more then 10 folks, and undue weight would be given.. but I don't think Squeak's point holds up, I'm sure that any admin would invoke WP:IAR in such blatant circumstances and ignore "No Consensus=Delete" in certain circumstances. My suggestion is When considering an AfD for an article that falls under WP:BLP that does not have a clear-cut consensus, the closing administrator is strongly encouraged to seek consensus by closing the AfD as no consensus, but immediately relisting the article for deletion, to attempt to seek a consensus on whether the article should be deleted SirFozzie 04:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this proposal simply makes no sense to me. If there's an AfD and the consensus is "no consensus to delete", then we delete? "No consensus" means that there is no consensus for a change from the status quo. Deleting is a change from the status quo and deleting "no consensus" results is tantamount to violating WP:CONSENSUS. -- Black Falcon 04:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The proposal is to reverse the current default. With BLPs, there would have to be a consensus to keep. If there isn't one, we delete. SlimVirgin

How can we reverse the default when there is no Misplaced Pages:Articles for keeping? People nominate articles for deletion ... if no consensus is reached, it means there is no consensus to endorse the nomination to delete. This proposal essentially makes it so that: if there is no consensus to endorse the nomination to delete, then we delete anyway. Huh?! I think this proposed measure is a tad too drastic. I must oppose it. -- Black Falcon 07:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess this proposal would define for WP:BLP define the "status quo" as being "deleted." For WP:BLP, then a consensus would be required to move from the default "status quo" of "deleted." --Rednblu 18:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Agreed, Black Falcon, I am VERY leery of deleting ANY AfD (not speedy/proddish, but an actual AfD) article without consensus. The proposal I made is an attempt to get consensus, one way or the other. SirFozzie 04:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with Black Falcon. I think there may be a way of dealing with the odd article like DB but this isnt it, SqueakBox 04:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Squeak, could you say what your argument is? The meatpuppet thing won't wash. Do you have another argument? SlimVirgin 05:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the weight should be on the side of those deleting not those keeping to prove their argument when it is established that a spedy is inappropriate and I also think we shouldnt have such a policy only for BLP, ie if you are going to change in favour of deletion not keeping it should be for all articles and should be discussed on an afd talk page, SqueakBox 16:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Umm ... I think that's a little overly hostile ("meatpuppet thing"), authoritative ("won't wash"), and dismissive ("Do you have another argument?"). We're discussing BLP, so let's try to keep this civil. -- Black Falcon 07:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: << Reversing the presumption in favor of retention >>

This is an excellent and very realistic solution for what I characterize as "too much OriginalResearch in Misplaced Pages articles about LivingPeople." In my opinion, Misplaced Pages editors generally have a useful understanding of when a Misplaced Pages article contains "too much OriginalResearch," and they therefore either try to 1) remove the OriginalResearch or 2) get the article with "too much OriginalResearch" deleted. On the other hand, in my opinion Misplaced Pages editors generally respect balanced articles, no matter how controversial, if there is minimal OriginalResearch, so I think there would be an expressed consensus to Keep for the articles that we should keep. The one caution, I would say, is that we should ensure that the "measure of consensus" is made on a large enough sample of Misplaced Pages editors. --Rednblu 05:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that most biography articles that end in "no consensus" are challenged on grounds of notability rather than original research. -- Black Falcon 07:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you are right. I was making a tacit assumption that, if there existed good enough ReliableSources that had Verified their assertions so that the editors would not have to do OriginalResearch to create the article, then the person would be already be notable. --Rednblu 18:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I like this, too. It is a pragmatic solution to the problem of barely-notable biographies we can't police properly. Guy (Help!) 06:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• I expect a clear positive effect. Any unexpected results to be dealt with as we go. Should it turn out to be a bad idea in practice, people (and especially opponents of this reversal) will have better arguments and we will go back to consensus deletions. AvB ÷ talk 08:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong support as a good start. Actually it doesn't solve much as many of the deletion requests from subjects come through OTRS and are confidential. But it is a start.--Doc 08:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This proposal doesn't just apply to subject-requested deletions, but any deletion nomination. In essence, it states that if there is disagreement about an article's suitability for inclusion, it will be deleted. -- Black Falcon 09:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Do I understand correctly that this is simply reversing the default, and not a blanket policy against BLP? It sounds like me that it just leads to a more efficient process and does not predetermine the outcome. If this is the case, i am all for it. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This may be a good idea. But why not just apply it to all articles and start the long-awaited Deletionist Reign of Terror? ;) Haukur 09:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Under that frivolity lies a serious point, so those admins closing such debates will need to be very careful. Disagreement about notability (cf. Brandt) would unquestionably not be grounds for a default delete here, since there is source material. I see this applying to those debates which currently default keep because one person says keep and one says delete. If in doubt, relist for greater input. The articles which are problematic, and therefore should be covered by any change in default (which should be on an experimental basis with a review after a couple of weeks or so. Guy (Help!) 10:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a good idea. We've seen that a huge percentage of BLPs are unsourced or thinly sourced. We've seen that we have more biographies than we can maintain which leads to undetected vandalism. These problems exist with other article, but biographies of living people are uniquely capable of distressing or harming people. This solution is more easily implemented than an "opt-out" plan. Though "opt-out" has merit it would be difficult to process given Misplaced Pages norms, requiring confirming the identities of purported subjects, and it would on'y address situations where the subject is aware of the article. By comparison, this proposal uses existing WP systems with only a small shift in how AfDs are handled, and can reduce the number of biographies of minimally notable individuals. -Will Beback · † · 10:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed criteria for deletion under the new rule:

• Notability is marginal or debatable (very few sources, one of a large number of similar individuals, nothing compelling or singular about them - say a generic professor with a reasonable publication list and a couple of texts written, but not claimed to eb a thought leader in their field and not subject of profiles or biographies).
• Low involvement in debate, excluding single-purpose accounts. If we start deleting Daniel Brandt we will unleash a shitstorm and the backlash will ensure that this proposal is soundly and irrevocably rejected, so if we want the benefits of this proposal we need to use it responsibly and avoid contentious cases.
• Low bar to undeletion if taken to WP:DRV. Not quite the contested prod automatic undelete, but certainly not the "speedy close valid AfD" level of support for an article subject to a deletion debate.

Yes, this is an attempt to legislate Clue. Guy (Help!) 10:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Question: Would it make sense to define subjects of marginal or debatable notability as: those who are not public figures? AvB ÷ talk 11:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I still have problems seeing how a default delete makes sense (see my comment above starting with "How can we reverse the default ..."). But, if it were to be implemented, I think the structure proposed by Guy is a reasonable and good one. I think it's wise not to apply this proposed change to an AfD where 100s of people have participated and disagreed (then again, I think it's wise not to apply it all, but I digress). If enacted, this should apply more to cases where an article receives very little comment and sees no substantial changes during the AfD (i.e., no additional sources, no cleanup, etc.). However, that makes me wonder ... wouldn't we be better served by just encouraging admins to relist discussions with limited participation? That way, we avoid defaults and instead encourage discussion and (hopefully) improvement. -- Black Falcon 16:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Overall, I like it. Pros: It's simple to understand, BLPs are an area in which quantity makes it dificult to focus on quality, and the proposal doesn't introduce subjective criteria such as "important" or "public figure". A gray area is: how do we define what is a biography? Articles about people primarily associated with an event or company can often be improved by retitling them under the name of the event or company, one example being the move of Ryan Jordan to Essjay controversy. If I move Jayson Blair to Jayson Blair controversy, nominate it for deletion, and have a no-consensus result, what happens? Kla'quot 16:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

If it has to do with a WP:BLP in a primary focus, then it would fall under this proposed change, is the way I see it. I would hope that this only be used where there's limited discussion on a living person AfD, and not like, say, the AfD's about he-who-shall-not-be-Named. SirFozzie 16:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with thew principle. To make it more obvious for closing admins, I would suggest we create a BfD (a subset of AfD) to deal with BLPs. If an article is listed on BfDs, the first pass would be to assess if it is a valid BfD (i.e. the Ann Coulter or George W. Bush examples). Only those articles that are low in notability could be listed there. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

One easy criterion to use for notability, which has been mentioned elsewhere, is the existence of the entry on any mainstream hardcopy encyclopedia (and we could list those if necessary). This criterion could be used, as a minimum, to automatically reject such entries into BfD. Crum375

I'm not sure if it couldn't be handled by AfD just with a note that this is under BLP/AfD, and there must be a consensus to keep in such cases. I'm not sure I'd like yet another XfD board, but if it would be simpler for folks that way, I could go along with it. SirFozzie 16:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Question. Shouldn't this discussion be advertised at WP:N, WP:BIO, WP:DEL, WP:DPR, and other pages? -- Black Falcon 18:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed. Why don't you be WP:BOLD and post notes there, or even a synopsis of discussion so far? This thread represents real progress by a bunch of smart people, on a core problem which should have been taken care of, a long time ago. So it's important. I note that there are all kinds of place where Misplaced Pages policy is discussed. There's a llot of good stuff on Wiki-EN-L, which isn't on Misplaced Pages itself, but is web-archived, and available to anybody, so it's not exactly secret. SBHarris 18:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I have posted notes at the talk pages of the following pages: Articles for deletion, Deletion policy, Deletion process, Notability, Notability (academics), Notability (music), Notability (people), and Notability (pornographic actors). -- Black Falcon 19:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Absolutely not. No need has been presented, there's no logical argument for it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying nobody has presented any NEED to change WP's present BLP policy?? And "logic" has nothing to do with matters of empathy and the golden rule, oh anonymous editor. SBHarris 19:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm still not really convinced of the need for the BLP policy as is, but certainly there's no need for this sort of change. As for my alleged anonyminity, I suggest taking a gander at my userpage. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Appologies. It is on your userpage, but after a long quote, and I missed it. The argument for problems with BLP is succinctly stated by SlimVirgin:

        Let's face it, it's kind of odd that we assume the right to expose a living person to the whims of anyone of any age anywhere in the world, people who don't have to use their real names, don't have to understand the policies, don't even have to be able to spell. It's a lot to ask of that person that they should simply acquiesce and dutifully check their bios every day for the rest of their lives, in case some 10-year-old, or a malicious enemy, has added insults or libel that thousands of people might read before it's fixed, and which Google may continue to distribute anyway.

• No. While a closing admin can easily disregard the vote of someone who blatantly hasn't edited anything else, there are a number of controversial issues where there are plenty of not-completely-but-mostly-single-topic editors with a strong point of view. Say, for example, the LaRouche movement, the 9-11 truth movement, Scientology, Palestine, and so forth, and so on. If not reaching consensus on an article about a living person means the article is deleted, we will quickly lose all articles about living people involved in these subjects. --AnonEMouse 19:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• This is the best proposal I've seen thus far for dealing with the BLP issues. I don't think that meatpuppetry is a concern either-obvious SPAs can be given little or no weight, as should happen anyway. If it becomes obvious from a DRV that it's possible a consensus exists to keep, we can simply relist. We wouldn't be deleting Daniel Brandt under this anyway, that was a consensus to keep, not a no consensus, so even if this had been in place at the time we'd still have that article. And if someone does go and nominate John Kerry or Bill O'Reilly for deletion, there'll just be an overwhelming consensus to keep and a nice troutslap for the nominator, so no big deal. Seraphimblade 19:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose reversing the presumption because, in the few cases I've seen that ended with no consensus, keeping seemed to me the right decision. I would like to see a significant number of examples of decisions that would have been reversed under this change, and for which reversal is the correct decision. To make this objective, is it possible to collect statistics of articles that were no consensus, and that then went on to a second AfD? In those cases, how often was the second AfD successful? —David Eppstein 20:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Just for reference, can anyone provide some examples of BLP's that recently got "no consensus" at AFD (which would be deleted under this proposal) that are significant enough that they'd be cause for concern about this proposal? --Minderbinder 20:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Sure. Here's one that demonstrates exactly what I'm worried about: James W. Walter, and the Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/James W. Walter (second nomination). Non-trivial sources included Reuters, the New York Times, Der Spiegel, and ABC News, unrelated articles spread over quite a few months. Normally a clear keep, no? But the opposition was one side of the 9/11 Truth Movement controversy -- not meat puppets, real editors, but with strong opinions. --AnonEMouse 20:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment HEY Slim, I am still blown away with how much "imput"/"effect" we/you/i/the foundation gives to the subjects of the bios in here. Everybody, I mean EVERYBODY, should be treated the same, period. Just becaue they don't like or don't want an article we are suppose to do what?? Tough nuggies. As long as we treat each article with care and respect, WHY would we "play favorites" with how articles are dealt with. Libel ect is a whole different ball game and should be/has been addressed it seems. Anyways, carry on --Tom 20:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This sounds to me like a very reasonable suggestion. Unfortunately a lot of articles are kept as no consensus with reasoning that basically is "I'm pretty sure somebody will find references someday, somehow." When Misplaced Pages was in its infancy, there might have been some justification for such things, but we've come a long way from being that cool new site where anybody can post anything: we are, like it or not, in the line of sight (and consequently, line of fire) of the media and mainstream academia. Playing fast and loose with BLP and verifiability has bitten us on the ass more than once--I speak not only of the obvious Seigenthaler incident but other things just as recently as a couple of days ago. We NEED to start getting serious about how we handle BLPs, and this is a step in the right direction. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand the reasoning here, but I don't like this. From my perspective the problem is with the number and pattern of occurance of "no consensus" closures. Many debates are closed as no consensus when a conclusion would be possible, to avoid difficult calls on behalf of the admins, or to clear the workload. I consider this moderately damaging: the community spends valuable times on these debates and deserves a proper interpretation of the outcome. To simply reverse the default would lead to all those articles being deleted, rather than a mere wasteful lack of decision. I would suggest that the goal here should be to avoid "no consensus" closes as much as possible: I would recommend that we try to get the word out to admins that they should avoid no consensus closes in general. I could imagine a rule that says that BLP-related deletion debates (but not necessarily all debates relating to living people) should not be closed "no consensus" (or at least, not until a large number of participants have been heard from) - in other words, BLP debates should be relisted until a decision can be reached. Mangojuice 20:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Well put, Mango and AnonEMouse. My opposition stems from the following similar concern: we know that a lot of votes don't get a whole lot of participation. And so, it seems to me, that a few folks with strong feelings can cause a "non-consensus", which would then lead to deletion -- i.e., a few folks could have veto power over the existence of any number of articles. That would not be a good situation. -- Sholom 21:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

If the presumption is to delete all BLP articles unless there is a Keep consensus on record, what would be the basis to initially create the BLP article in the first place? This just seems to be a way of saying that you are not permitted to create a BLP article in article space until you first get permission through a Keep consensus. We are the 💕 that anyone can edit and requiring permission to create a BLP article is not the wiki way. -- Jreferee 21:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not saying that at all, Jreferee. BLPs that no one nominates for deletion will be fine. It's only if nominated that a consensus to keep would be required. SlimVirgin 21:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

What about creating new articles about deleted BLP's down the road? Generally when there's a delete decision, there's a specific reason for deletion and if that reason changes, either by writing a better article, or more sources becoming available, or by a person becoming more notable, an article can be created that addreses the reason for deletion. If an article is deleted by "no consensus" doesn't that mean there's not really a reason for deletion, and isn't that confusing for anyone interested in creating an article? --Minderbinder 21:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

My initial post assumed that a BLP article is presumed not to meet Misplaced Pages process initially. If a BLP article is presumed by consensus to meet Misplaced Pages process initially, it does not seem fair that one person can change that consensus presumption merely by nominating the article for deletion. Changing the AfD presumption for BLP material seems like a simple thing to do, but I think it eventually will unintentionally result in significant, fundamental changes to areas of Misplaced Pages not related to AfD. -- Jreferee 22:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Not that I agree with this, but what about letting users create BLP articles in user space or some space other than article space and then having an admin move it to article space if there are no significant BLB concerns. Another comment, part of the trouble may be the availability of BLP problem articles through Google. Perhaps Misplaced Pages could work with Google to keep certain BLP articles from being brought up in a Google search. I don't agree with this either, but just throwing it out there. -- Jreferee 21:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree with reversing the default on AFDs of living persons, however I would support Mangojuice's contention that we are doing a disservice by closing the "no consensus" to begin with. Relist or solicit additional opinions as needed, until the answer is clear. Don't carve out exceptions. -- nae'blis 21:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Relist and solicit additional opinions as needed seems to be the best answer since the stated problem is BLP no consensus AfDs and this answer goes directly to the stated problem. Kudos to Mangojuice. -- Jreferee 21:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I do not agree with reversing the default on AFD's. The current proceedure is fine, and we should not start carving out exceptions for certain types of articles. Johntex\ 21:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose deleting articles by default on no consensus I oppose the proposal to delete articles which fail to receive a consensus one way or another at afd. I would rather keep borderline, questionably useful articles than delete possibly useful articles that have questionable reasons for deletion. Articles which are borderline keep/delete can and are tagged as such using disputed tags, unreferenced and verification tags, notability tags, etc. The use of such disclaimer tags serves, in my opinion, as sufficient warning to a reader that some or all of the article should not necessarily be taken completely at face value and that some of the article may be disputed. I would rather be VERY sure of deleting an article than deleting articles that may or may not, in reasonable people's eyes, be acceptable. Just my opinion. Dugwiki 22:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Section break

This has my Strongest possible support. The objections here that the 'default' action is to easy to fake with outside influence isn't an argument against this proposal... it's an argument to shut down AFD entirely, or an argument in favor of this proposal. I don't personally think AFD default is that subject to influence, but if it is we should certainly make the default the safer action. It's always been the case that default is intended to be the safer action, but the 'safer action' isn't always the same. Based on our experience, it would appear that deletion is almost certainly the safer case for biography articles of low profile people. I don't think this is equal to a rule against creating BLP's in the first place, ... to reach AFD first someone experienced enough with our processes must object. A change in the default is no more a BLP prohibition than is the ability to delete them. --Gmaxwell 21:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I also vote to support this. There has been so much chatter going on about the topic on the mailing lists and IRC. It is about time we actually do something instead of talking it to death. Danny 22:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Most Wikipedians are not on mailings lists are IRC. For that reason, off-wiki discussion of policy mean little. This is the proper format for discussing such a change, and it should also be published at the village pump at at AfD if the proponents are serious about seeking consensus for such a change. Johntex\ 22:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Give it a try for a few months. We can always review the policy if it looks like it isn't working.--Newport 22:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I also support this proposal. Every biography of a living person is a liability for the foundation, in ways that all other articles obviously aren't. If this proposal is implemented it will reduce the amount of them to a manageable level by eliminating those that the community can't decide one way or the other about and leaving the ones that people have reached a consensus to keep. Maintenance will become easier. Picaroon 22:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• People say this a lot, but it is not true. Libel of Bill Gates is libel whether is occurs at Bill Gates or Microsoft or at Ass to mouth. The same is true for less famous persons. Libel is libel, no matter what we call the article. Johntex\ 22:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Super-strong support! This is a great idea, it's so simple, and it seems to me that it is almost exactly equally vulnerable to gaming as our current system, but at least with possible wrong results being damaging. Mak (talk) 22:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not support this proposal in general, but would support a modification that distinguished between BLPs where the subject requests deletion and those where the subject has not. In the former case, I think we need a very clear !vote at Afd to keep, so no consensus defaulting to delete is reasonable there. However, if the subject has not requested the article to be deleted I see no reason to treat the article any different from any non-BLP article. --Bduke 23:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I support this, as it currently stands, and would also like to see a higher rate of relists in response to this (which will probably happen anyway, but needs to be pointed out). Nifboy 00:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose It seems as though AfD is analogous to prosecution in the US legal system. In the courts there is a presumption of innocence and a bar against double jeopardy, multiple prosecutions for the same offense. In the case of a draw there is a continued presumption of innocence which we call a hung jury. At WP we are defending our integrity against errors in judgment, boasting and libel, akin to crimes against our encyclopedic nature. Clearly this is serious, but not to the degree of crime in the real world. Why should we take a more drastic approach? We already give the "prosecution" multiple bites at the apple; I see no reason to make it more difficult to defend meaningful articles against erroneous deletion. --Kevin Murray 01:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Support—same reasons as gmaxwell. If there's going to be so much difference between defaulting to keep and defaulting to delete that it deserves outcry, the process is broken. 72.165.205.81 01:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

SUPPORT Anything that makes deletion of semi-notable or questionably notable bios easier. I also wish somebody would create a special "end tag" for bios of semi-notable people (definition: people not in regular paper encyclopedias), which essentially says: This is a bio of a person who may not be in standard works. If the person who is the subject wishes its deletion and has not done so, please enter a request at: xxxx, and the matter will be reviewed. Thank you. Etc. And have a special page for requests of this type ONLY. This, to make it easier for non-Wikipedians surprised by bios about themselves, to rapidly get to AfD, ASAP. SBHarris 01:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Example of a problem with this proposal

David Heymann was nominated for deletion because someone thought the subject was "non-notabe", which usually just means the nominator does not happen to care about the particular subject matter. The article says nothing at all negative about the subject, and is well sourced. It has sinced passed GA.

However, the article barely passed AfD. If this proposal were to be implemented, perfectly good information such as this would be lost just because some people want to see it deleted.

The presumption at AfD should always be to KEEP. Johntex\ 22:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "barely passed;" the result was keep and rightly so, since notability was asserted (the article getting better as the AfD progressed) - and those in favor of keeping made stronger arguments anyways. (Here is the AfD). So I don't see the relevance of your example. Picaroon 00:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance either. That wasn't a no consensus close (nor should it have been, it was a clear keep consensus), so even had this been policy at the time we'd still have that article. Seraphimblade 00:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

As Picaroon said, the article underwent a dramatic expansion during the AfD. It was nominated for AfD on the same day it was created and only very fast work got it to the point of being kept. Had that effort been a little less dramatic, it could easily have been a no-consensus and "keep" by default. The point is that it can already be hard for a new article to pass AfD, even if it is a worthwhile stub. Johntex\ 02:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Use of categories

I would like to see a statement that tells us that the two criteria required for the use of religious and sexual preference categories also applies to actual content in the article. It doesn't make sense that there would be a rule, for instance, requiring a subject to publicly self-identify as a particular religion before the category can be applied, but would not prohibit the insertion of the same information in the article without meeting the same criteria. I am positive that this is the spirit of the guideline, yet since it does not actually state that, I often have to argue with editors who hold that the two criteria apply only to use of categories, not to article content. I am currently involved in an ARBCOM case that is pending acceptance, and if it is accepted, I will ask them to issue a finding clarifying this, since it is a related issue. But I thought it would be better to get this change rolled in by consensus here. - Crockspot 19:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. We can easily state that Dan Savage is gay, he's said so in his column a thousand times. But we certainly shouldn't be in the business of "deciding" someone's religion or sexual orientation for them, that's up to them. Seraphimblade 20:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It sounds reasonable to me too. I'm not sure public self-identification should be the only criterion; for instance, if a reliable source called someone a "prominent Bahai activist" then we shouldn't have to find a quote fom the person herself. But whatever the policy is, consistency between categories and article content makes sense. —David Eppstein 21:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I disagree. The reason the rule is different for categories is that they do not allow us to convey nuances of information or to cite sources. In the text of an article, we are able to cite the source. Eg. "OUT Magazine claimed John Doe is a homosexual". A category does not have that same ability to cite sources and let the reader evaluate them as the source of the claim. Johntex\ 21:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
• I also disagree. It is a fundamental pillar of Misplaced Pages that we can add properly sourced material; to remove that pillar would leave Misplaced Pages a very fragile structure.--Newport 22:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
  • With proper attribution, yes, we certainly could note any claims of such (so long as such claims can be reliably sourced, are reasonably notable, and aren't just rumormongering). But ultimately, one's religion and sexual orientation are a matter of self-identification. If a lot of sources state that John Doe is a gay Catholic, but he self-identifies as a bisexual Episcopalian, we should state it just that way-"John Doe is a bisexual Episcopalian, though in 1999 Some Magazine identified him as a gay Catholic." If he's never spoken on the matter at all, we should present nothing as fact whatsoever, only as attributed claims-"Some Magazine and the Somewhere Times identify Doe as a gay Catholic." Seraphimblade 22:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposal for new BLP process

Perhaps we should have a process to blank a BLP article where the subject of that article asks, the subject of the article has a clear, demonstrated distress over having the BLP article on Misplaced Pages irrespective of the content, and the demonstrated distress significantly outweighs the importance/fame of the person. Daniel Brandt meets WP:N, but it seems to me that Daniel Brandt has demonstrated distress over the Daniel Brandt article through his numerous pleas on Misplaced Pages and his importance/fame is relatively small compared to the amount of this demonstrated distress. I don't think that there are that many individuals clamoring to have their BLP article removed and there are even less with such demonstrated distress. For example, Rachel Marsden's position was a request to fix her article to meet WP:BLP, not delete it. To derive such a process, we first need to compile a list of all those desiring to have their BLP article blanked and then review the compilation to figure out the proposed procedure. If interested, please list below all those BLP articles for which the person who is the subject of the article desires that it be deleted. -- Jreferee 00:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC) '

Strongly disagree. The subject's desire should not play into whether they have an encyclopedic entry about them or not. SirFozzie 02:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. The subject should be able to contact us and have redress over negative information if it is poorly sourced, but they should not have a veto power over whether we have an article or not. Johntex\ 02:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

How are we supposed to evaluate distress against notability? They are two entirely different things. -Amarkov moo! 02:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Our direction?

IMO we are getting this so wrong. What is wrong with BLP is that it is far too restrictive. We should be making it easier and not more difficult to have BLP articles; otherwise I feel we just follow blindly the DB line without reflection just because we cannot handle him, and we make him the victor in all this. The reality is there are far more people clamouring for a wikipedia article than that minority who dont want an article. DB today said he feels he now has the alleged wikipedia cabal on his side, he has persuaded wikipedia by outing people rahter than enaging in a serious argument to do exactly the opposite of what we should be doing which is making BLP eligibility much greater. And I intend to defend this viewpoint from those who want to restrict the Jimbo goal of the encyclopedia of everything because, IMO, (no attacks intended) DB has got them scared, SqueakBox 02:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)