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MySpace Ban revisited

I would like to suggest that what appears to be a total ban on links to MySpace be reconsidered if the link is to a Band or some other "Professional" type page. In particular this type of page can frequently be an appropriate source for "Independent" musicians, etc. CyntWorkStuff 05:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Apparantly Jimbo had these blacklisted. If you want to change it I suggest you take it up with him directly. --Spartaz 06:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not know it was completely blacklisted, only that it was listed under "Links normally to be avoided" and then only in context of "Social Netwoking" or "Personal Blog" pages. CyntWorkStuff 06:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

My bad - I shouldn't post so early in the morning. Myspace blog links are blacklisted. For the others you are in the right place. So I'll shut up now... --Spartaz 06:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Howdy, I have a few mixed feelings on myspace. Yes I can see how some information can be gotten from the site, thats great. The problem I am seeing is that if whatever is being cited can only be found in myspace, is whatever is being cited really that big of a deal? If information about a band can't be cited by multiple reliable sources, then the band probably should not even be in wikipedia. We are not here to document the "up and coming" so to say, but rather those who already have had a ton of media coverage. I guess it comes to this... if what is trying to be said can only be cited by myspace, then we should be asking if that material is really notable, and is that material any type of original research. As far as myspace links in the "external links" section, I think they should go, as we are not a linkfarm. Its not our job to point people to every related band site. Nor is it our job to be pointing people to random fan-sites. Generally useful links to go in the "external links" section would be, the band's official page, their producer's page on them, and thats about it. If they are an "independent" band, then we should be relying on multiple reliable sources to document if and when the band is releasing something (after we check to make sure the band is or is not notable, and can info really be verifiable). If there are some interesting related hisotory or what not, that could go there as well. Its Google, Yahoo, Ask.com, and the search engines job to point people to the related fan-sites, and other paraphernalia. Cheers! —— Eagle 101 10:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the main issue is when a band uses myspace for their official webpage. If that's the case, WP:EL definitely recommends linking to it. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The situation I have in mind is not just when a Band (or now other entities such as Films; Books; Festivals; 501c3's and/or NGO Organizations; Performers; etc.) use MySpace as their "Official" web-page, it is when they start using a Main web-site and MySpace in tandem. For instance, since webpage's frequently require the assistance of programmers to update and change, many people use them for more static information and then use more User-modifiable sites, (like MySpace) to put up new info. Additionally because it is easy for an end user to do on their own, it is a place where the most current music, etc. can be found. While not at all advocating that the "External Links" sections be turned into linkfarms, I would just like to be able to list and cite both a main website and an "official" secondary or tertiary site, without having a "Removing external link: myspace.com -- per external link guidelines" show up. CyntWorkStuff 19:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

We just have to be careful, of course, that it's the true official page, and not someone masquerading as such. There are ways to tell. We just have to be careful. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 14:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The problem is myspace has no system for 'official' verification. There are several artists out there, and I'm sure many more, of whom have multiple myspace 'official' profiles. Only one of them, sometimes none of them are the 'true' 'official' profile. I don't think WP:EL recommends linking to it on shakey WP:RS (WP:V) grounds. JoeSmack 14:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

We have to be equally careful outside of MySpace. There is nothing unusual about a fan site with its own domain. - Jmabel | Talk 18:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

(undent) If a band or artist or whatever has an official website and there is a link on that website to the Myspace page, then why do we need to link to both from WP? The link to the official site gets people on the right track to finding the other one. if there is no link on the official site, then how do we know it's official? -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 19:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say the same way we assess if any webpage/website is an official & trusted source. By careful research and using common sense and good judgment. Additionally, we can hope to rely on the knowledge of our fellow editors to tell us if someone is attempting to pull the wool over our eyes. My thought here is that just as NOT being on MySpace doesn't always automatically make a site and the information contained instantly credible, the fact that it was set up using MySpace as a tool should not in all cases make it instantly suspect. I just want to be able to make that reasonable assessment without being automatically wiped out in some sort of global "links to MySpace" hunting sweep. CyntWorkStuff 20:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What about when the band puts the myspace link on their album? And along the lines of "why do we link both", why do we do it in the case of corporations that have multiple official websites? I don't see "why do we need both" as a reason not to link to an official site. --Milo H Minderbinder 19:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

If they have a series of interlinked sites then I don't think we are serving any informational value up by providing every single one of them. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 20:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Do we have an estimate of how many (in percentage, please) reliable sites there are on myspace? --Dirk Beetstra 20:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Impossible to estimate. Technically speaking, anywhere from 0-100%. They all are possible reliable primary sources. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Just look at some of them! Most are sloppily done using code generators, and I could set one up in mere minutes. Any band with no official site outside of myspace should probably be AfDed under WP:MUSIC, since a website is so easy to set up these days. ST47Talk 20:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thankfully, having a website does not meet the deletion criteria. d:-P --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Does it matter? If one band has an official page on MySpace, and the information thereon is reliable information about the band, then that link should be included. Blanket bans should be saved for spam sites. (And if Jimbo has blocked links to MySpace blogs, he's wrong.) Argyriou (talk) 20:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

That is technically a correct answer. But of all the myspace sites .. there are <100% maintained by bands, of those <100% do not have an official homepage, and of those <100% are notable enough to be in wikipedia. But to make it countable first, how many official 'groups' do have a myspace account (as opposed to my neighbours daughter)? --Dirk Beetstra 20:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

My specialty in this regard is indie music, and I'd say that it's rare for a group not to have a Myspace page, either as their main homepage or in addition to their main homepage. If you want to reach your audience, you get on MySpace. I don't know of any bands at this point that do not have a MySpace page, although I'm sure there may be a few here or there. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do believe that, but if that in total are 500 bands, of those have 10% not an official site, we end up with 50 myspace links, right. On a 50,000 myspace sites, that is a mere 0.1% .. all the others, 49,950, we'd have to revert. And then, I am not even asking if all these 50 are notable enough to earn a wikipedia site. --Dirk Beetstra 20:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Not music related. An article on my watchlist (an article for a school) recently had a groups.myspace.com link deleted, with a note indicating "(Removing external link: *.myspace.com -- per external link guidelines)". This link was to an online group for the alumni of the school, which is a small boarding school. I am not familiar with this school, but earlier when I checked the external links in the article, it appeared to me that the myspace group was at least as useful a resource in the context of the article as the school's official website. http://meta.wikimedia.org/Spam_blacklist lists only myspace blogs and a few other specific myspace pages as being blacklisted. Is there some other blacklist that bans all of myspace, or can I assume that groups.myspace.com is not actually blacklisted?--orlady 20:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Howdy, I just want to note that in this case, a quick read of the links normally to be avoided, would help here. In this case it is a link to a social group, we can't possibly link to every related social group without becoming a link farm. Cheers! —— Eagle 101 21:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I see I forgot to answer to Argyriou. Argyriou, it is still possible to add myspace.com pages, but most (practically all) will be removed on sight. If there is such a page, I am sure there will be an exception (just wondering, how do you know it is an official myspace site of a notable band?). For now, such a site has not been encountered, and wikipedia is not a repository for external links. --Dirk Beetstra 21:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Some have cited Misplaced Pages:External links. But if you look at the subhead "Links normally to be avoided," you'll find that links that constitute "an official page of the article subject" are exempt. Many MySpace pages are run by the actual subjects of the articles or their delegates and provide a rich source of first-hand information about them. They often function as a subject's only official page or as a supporting page with unique content. No, I don't work for MySpace -- I just think it's a mistake to overlook this resource. Jessesamuel 22:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is part of the above discussion. While obeying that WP is not a linkfarm, one could consider using a myspace page, if a) that is indeed the official page (how to check?), b) the page where that link is on is on itself notable enough to be in wikipedia, and the information is reliable (again, how to check). That indeed gives the possibility that there are some myspace links left over (and I am sure an exception for these can be made), but how many will that be? --Dirk Beetstra 22:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• Until Myspace cracks down on impersonation, it cannot be considered a reliable or verifiable source, pure and simple. I should note that Jimbo Wales has a few impersonators there. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 00:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That issue has already been addressed - identity can be verified by the user confirming their page from an official source. If nbc.com links to a myspace page for a show, there's no doubt the page is an official one. --Milo H Minderbinder 00:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all. Cross-referencing is key. The crux of the matter is this - if the page has legitimate claims, it will be reported by the news media. If it has been reported by the news media, then THAT is what should be linked. Linking to small indie band websites is nothing more than a promotion tool. ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 00:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• MySpace allows only musicians or authorized agents to post music and create artist pages. see MySpace's band signup pageJessesamuel 09:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That might be their policy, but it's definitely not the practice. I believe the guidelines should insist that any such pages linked should be 'official' and not fansites, and leave it at that. It would be of value if it became known that the only myspace links on WP were those verified to be 'official' by the WP community. There's a balance to be made between keeping WP 'pure' and making it the best resource possible. joly Wwwhatsup 09:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Until this day comes it should not be considered verifiable unless a 3rd party reliable source confirms it, and in that case just use the reliable source instead. Come to think of it, it seems like 99.9% of cases would end up in not using myspace. If it was used, it would only be in a ref tag. JoeSmack 13:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources and external links are two different things. The fact that a myspace page is official absolutely needs to be verifiable to use it as an external link. But another source doesn't need to verify everything on that page (same as any other official source), and a source verifying that it is official isn't necessarily going to contain all the info on the myspace page, and thus isn't really a replacement for the page. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say, but as per WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided i remove links that are not reliable sources. ELs are often times info that is waiting to be incorporated into the article, and if they ain't RSs someone is going to be mislead. JoeSmack 22:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Then it sounds like you're misunderstanding policy. EL and RS are two different things and have two different standards for inclusion. --Milo H Minderbinder 22:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided, number 2. JoeSmack 00:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

And please see the intro to that section that says links to official sites are exempt from that list. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and how do we know it is an official site? Because there are other (3rd party) sources telling it is official, making that source an even better reference than the blog. --Dirk Beetstra 13:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The guideline as currently written doesn't support that. It says to link official sites, not to compare official sites to third party sources and see which is "better". If you don't like the policy, propose a change. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

(undent)Yes, the policy says it should link to official sites, but how do you know something is an official site? Because the site itself says it is the official site? --Dirk Beetstra 15:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

As has already been pointed out, it can be verified from other official info. Just because another source is required to verify that it is offical doesn't somehow make it not official. --Milo H Minderbinder 15:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and as such it can be used as a reference, noting that it must be clear that the myspace site is there a reliable source (hence, a reference giving both the official site and the myspace site, explaining this). As an external link, it is only reliable if there is an official source stating it is reliable, then it does not need to be in the external links, since the official site can be in the external links, and people can go via the official site to the myspace site. --Dirk Beetstra 15:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, but the guideline simply doesn't agree with that statement. "Reliable source" is irrelevant in regard to external links to official websites. If a myspace page is an official site, the policy says it can go in the external links. --Milo H Minderbinder 16:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, how do you know the myspace in question is an official website. Misplaced Pages is not a linkfarm, hence, although it could go into the external links, one does not have to put a link into the external links section when it is available. And in these cases there are better external links available, and when it is the official page, it is better as a reference to statements in the text. --Dirk Beetstra 16:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

You're asking a question that has already been answered. Per the guideline, we just need to be sure that a website is an official one. Once we know that, it may be linked, period. "Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any." Per the guideline, "better" or "linkfarm" aren't reasons not to link to official sites. Again, if you disagree with linking to official sites, propose a change in the policy. --Milo H Minderbinder 17:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

How can we see in the external links that a myspace page is the official one, and what does that site add to the article when it is in the external links section. That a link exists does not mean that it should be incorporated (it can be incorporated, when it is clearly an official site). The majority of the external links contain information that could be used in the text and are then better used as a reference (vide infra). So yes, they can be official sites, they can be used. But the guidelines says: keep it to a minimum, and then the site that says that the myspace site is official is a better EL than the myspace site .. the myspace is then superfluous. --Dirk Beetstra 17:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

"How can we see in the external links that a myspace page is the official one" This has already been answered multiple times, why do you keep asking? "Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any." Sounds like official sites should be linked. It doesn't say "can" be linked. --Milo H Minderbinder 18:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see it. --Dirk Beetstra 18:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

My 2cents are this point are this: if i see "Official site" next to a myspace EL on wikipedia, i just don't trust it's claim. i don't see any good reason why i should as it is a social networking site. the burden of proof is on the contributor, and from wikipedia space i just can't see how it could be shown to be officially verified by contributor as the sole official site (the most of the 'exceptions' to linking to myspace). JoeSmack 19:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

"Sole official site"? Where in EL does it use that term? The question keeps coming up about knowing a myspace site is really an official one, but how do we know *any* official site is legit? The question isn't unique to myspace. --Milo H Minderbinder 20:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Its a scenario in which i might use myspace EL. and we use a little common sense to identify official sites. For instance Spiderman 3, you might find the 'official site' being Spiderman 3 official site!!, Spiderman official site, Spiderman official site!!!, Spidermans official siite! and Spiderman 3 site!!!. My point is myspace is a social networking site, and requires sometimes arduous research to show it is official, all of which is unprovable in wikipedia space anyways. Just like flickr extremely rarely if ever an acceptable EL as an official site, myspace should garner the same response - thus both are hardly ever used and often deleted from EL sections. JoeSmack 20:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I just can't take the argument that "MySpace is never a reliable source" argument seriously. Get with the times; MySpace is here to stay, and its ease of use (for lack of a much better phrase) is very attractive to people. For example, Jon Favreau, the director of the upcoming Iron Man film, has been using his MySpace blog as an official source of information. Are we seriously not allowed to cite the director, just because we "don't like" the website he used? Couple that with the rise of MySpace for bands, and any argument for a flat-out ban on MySpace becomes ridiculous to incredible proportions. EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we have said 'never' .. hardly ever is closer. And I don't think it is a 'I don't like it', it is a Jimbo does not like it. But you can write "Jon Favreau, the director of the upcoming Iron Man film has announced on his weblog<ref></ref> that something is going to happen.<ref></ref>" ?? In that case indeed you can indeed use it as a reliable source. --Dirk Beetstra 16:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I've heard some pretty vehement arguments against MySpace being used for pretty much anything, so I'm perhaps a bit overzealous in my arguments for the site. I just think that MySpace isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and a policy that ignores that is based on a fallacy, in my opinion. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

But the arguments raised against it are legitimate. Please give them a read. Cheers! —— Eagle 101 19:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I personally think Milo has the correct argument. And, in my experience, non-official or fansites on myspace nearly always declare themselves as they soon discover it's the only way to avoid deluges of fan messages. The social networking aspect is irrelevant when myspace has become the default method of public communication by so many artists - audio samples, tourdates, videoclips, and other provided content are independent of social connections. Solutions could be to create an 'official' tag to be included on pages and/or to request email verification similar to the permissions@WP system. Wwwhatsup 07:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

This isn't always the case so I couldn't possibly trust the idea that everyone who is non official declares it. The social networking aspect isn't irrelevant, it is actually the most salient: myspace is first and foremost a social networking site no matter how you look at it. The solution you propose is sometimes suggested, but until it is made and it works and isn't abused and such, myspace won't be a proper EL in the vast vast majority of the cases it is used. JoeSmack 16:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Whether it's a reliable source or not is immaterial, if it's not a spam problem it doesn't belong in the spam blacklist. Inappropriate ELs in general can be removed by other editors, who, unlike a blanket ban in the SBL, can use judgement on a case-by-case basis. --Random832(tc) 03:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Guideline against text links to external links?

The current 4th paragraph of External link was edited in a way intended to clarify it. It had been combined with the previous paragraph. Provided that there is no Wiki article that covers a hypertext link reasonably well, nothing in External link indicates that a text link to external links are to be discouraged. Or so a coherent reading of the previous Edit suggeests. An example consistent with this interpreation is Economics, which has the following last sentence of the Lead:

Methods of economic analysis have been increasingly applied to fields that involve people (officials included) making choices in a social context, such as crime, education, the family, health, law, politics, religion, social institutions, and war.

There the most suitable link is used, whether to another wiki article or an external link. Does anyone believe that the guideline of External link either does or should discourage such a practice? Comments welcome in either direction. --Thomasmeeks 19:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC) (']]' & spelling fixes) Thomasmeeks 00:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

What is it, though? Is it in the External Links section? No. Is it a reference? No. Then it doesn't seem to be covered by any policy, and personally, I'd delete it. Notinasnaid 19:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Notinasnaid, why do you say these links are not references? --Gerry Ashton 19:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It isn't a form of reference I recognise, or can find in WP:CITE#How to cite sources. Notinasnaid 20:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

A reference is a reference if it is intended to show where information in an article came from. There is no hard and fast requirement that the reference be written in a particular form. If you wish to edit an article to improve the way a reference is written, you are welcome to do so, but it would be incorrect to remove a reference because you don't care for the way it is written. --Gerry Ashton 12:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the 4th para., 4th sentennce clarifies:

This guideline only concerns external links that provide additional info beyond that provided by citation/reference links.

If "beyond" in the quotation referred to the External links section, there would not be a separate section for that subject. Therefore, it must refer to external links other than for citation/reference or the External links section such as referred to in section 3: What to link. There it refers to providing context and making the discussion more accessible, which is just what an in-line Wiki link should do. --Thomasmeeks 21:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

There's this: Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (links)#Link titles: "You should not add a descriptive title to an embedded HTML link within an article." The links above may pass as citations for the particular examples crime/education/religion/war and should be treated as references. They're definitely not proper external links. Titled embedded links are evil. Depending on your browser setup you can't even visually distinguish them from internal links. I think the guideline could be more clear that articles must not be scattered with links, even if they meet the inclusion criteria. Femto 10:53, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

These links are not references; they do not attribute the statement, they tunnel away (though probably to appropriate pages). IMHO, a proper setup for this sentence would be:

Methods of economic analysis have been increasingly applied to fields that involve people (officials included) making choices in a social context, such as crime, education the family, health, law, politics, religion, social institutions, and war.

The internal links I used may not be the most appropriate ones, but more appropriate pages can maybe be found, or maybe the sentence should contain a redlink for now.

Another reason why these links (or any external links) in the text are evil is that the page cannot be printed without the formatting breaking. OK, wikipedia is not a paper encyclopeadia, but see 'printable version' button in toolbox). I am not sure if there are policies and guidelines that specifically discourage these practics (I see that WP:CITE mentions inline html-links as a proper way ..), but I would suggest to rebuild these sentences on sight (convert inline urls of whichever format into either {{ref}} or <ref>). --Dirk Beetstra 11:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Thx for 2 comprehensive statements. First, I do accept that is evil (as well as violating MOS;). My remarks above refer to extra-Wiki in-text links, that is of the form , which parallel ]. Fento's MOS quote refers to something else: formatting of external link for a citation. For that case, MOS says do not enclose the title of the external link in . It does not say: don't use an in-text gloss in an HTML , such as . In the example, the link is not a citation but goes to the document itself. One can can argue that the MOS should forbid the latter, but that is a different matter. My own view is that no categorical rules should be laid down here, because circumstances may differ. I do accept the presumption in favor intra-Wiki in-text links.

On Dirk Beetstra's comment, that is correct: the in-text link tunnels to the document itself. Arguably for that example, however, symmetry or simplicity calls for treating intra-Wiki and extra-Wiki links symmetrically (because all intra-Wiki links there happen to use economic treatments of those subjects). On the point about format breaking, at least on my printer, not even the hypertext prints from an HTML link, whether intra- or external link. (For that case, nothing would be lost that is not already lost in printing.) If the reference is to be preserved for printing, however, footnoting is the way to go as you suggest. Hmm, your last sentence seems to recommend intra-Wiki references. That could make sense for linking to the reference section of another article. But presumably nothing else in Wiki is a primary source, the gold standard. So, I don't know another Wiki article would ever ve used as a citattion. I'm probably missing something here (& not the frist time). --Thomasmeeks 20:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right, that sentence is ambiguous. I meant the in-text extra-wikipedia links. I am inclined not to treat intra-wiki and extra-wiki links symmetrically; the text in wikipedia should explain, which can be helped with internal links, while the external links should be used as references (to attribute the text in the article). If the information is not available in wikipedia, then articles on that subject should be created/requested or the information should be included in the document. The external links suggest that the information on the article is complete, but not all information is included in wikipedia. That might suggest that the documents should not be created in wikipedia, whereas a redlink would trigger that. Although wikipedia is not a paper encyclopeadia, CD and paper versions of the wikipedia (e.g. for people who do not have an internet connection) would be void of the external information. --Dirk Beetstra 22:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Pointing out the advantages of referencing as a guideline is very appropriate. IMHO prohibiting extra-Wiki text links as a way to improve Wiki could produce the postulated beneficial effect, but that's assuming that Wiki policy will have a certain overall effect. What seems surer is that the article would not be as good. So, deciding comes down to a difference in prediction. Here at least the instances are unusual enough as to not require policy. I agree, not all info is in Wiki. It's nice to hope that a redlink would trigger improvement, but where to start and with what focus? At least with an external link there is a starting point. CD versions are different species for which special considerations might apply anyhow. --Thomasmeeks 02:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Footnote URLs that mess up the formatting

Example: James Dobson. What's the best way to resolve this? Use PURL? --David Bixenspan 20:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Just put a bracket on both ends of the URL. I correct this kind of problem now and then when I see it on various pages. This long newspaper article URL from the James Dobson reference section becomes this very short link:

If you have more time, create a regular reference link consisting of title, author, publication, and date. --Timeshifter 10:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I forgot about this...

I meant that the reference at the bottom of the page shows the whole URL and thus throws off the formatting. --David Bixenspan 01:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Retitle "Advertising and Conflict of Interest"?

Could the title of Section 4.1, "Advertising and Conflict of Interest," be amended to something like "Advertising, Self-Linking, and Conflict of Interest"? I'm a math professor who tried to set up links to my course notes. I initially skipped over this section in my reading, because I didn't think I fell into either of the two categories; I was thinking "Coke, Pepsi, and politicians." I think many fellow new users might get confused. Thanks! Ken Kuniyuki 01:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I see no need for the change. You have aproached linking correctly from what I have seen by discussing it on the talk page. I would however, have a read over at Wp:not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought to cover all bases in case its Primary (original) research. cheers --Hu12 02:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Open Directory Project

I removed this for discussion:

Rather than creating a long list of external links, editors should consider linking to a related category in the Open Directory Project (also known as DMOZ) that is devoted to creating relevant directories of links pertaining to various topics. (See {{Dmoz}}.) If there is no relevant category, you can request help finding or creating a category by placing {{Directory request}} on the article's talk page.

I'm curious to know when this was added and who agreed to it, because it seems that we're throwing ourselves on the mercy of that project's editorial judgment and policies rather than our own. I saw it misused today where it seems it's being added because it contains a link to a highly POV blog-style entry about a contentious issue. Is there widespread consensus that this project should be linked to? SlimVirgin 00:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That should not be in the guideline. DMOZ does not have a policy by which they chose to add websites to their directory. It is done by volunteers (I have been one a few years ago) and that guidelines for inclusion are very loose. Allowing links to DMOZ contradicts the "Links to avoid section" in this guideline. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

DMOZ is also not always the best link to use - there's a discussion in the beer articles and project about the use of links to BeerAdvocate.com, which provides better and more thorough coverage of breweries and beers than DMOZ does, or probably ever will. Αργυριου (talk) 00:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a DMOZ should not be used blindly. Note that the text says "should consider" - not "they should" - that means that editors should look at the corresponding category and see if it helps enhance the WP page by providing an alternative to the EL list. WP is not a list of links, and this provides ONE alternative, but not the only one. I have no problem with the wording as stated. (Full discloure: I am a DMOZ editor) -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 01:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Please don't inappropriately remove things from the guideline without gaining a consensus first. There has been a ton of discussion on this. Using a Dmoz link on articles with potentially dozens or even hundreds of valuable external links is a longstanding good solution to the problem. The fact that some sites linked from Dmoz wouldn't qualify as Misplaced Pages external links is totally silly. No Dmoz category is likely to ever have every site be one that would merit an external link from Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not a link directory, and we need a practical solution for when there are dozens of valuable links possible, besides whining and reverting and pissing matches. 2005 02:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

This was removed as it contradicts the wording of the guideline itself. We are not linking to Google searches, not to the Yahoo categories directory and we should link to DMOZ either. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't contradict the guideline. In fact it is a part of the guideline that has a longstanding consensus from multiple previous discussions. Do not completely arbitrily change the guideline without gaining a consensus first. We went through this before. You know the process. Please don't be rude. 2005 00:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a collection of links, but ODP is. So it seems reasonable to let ODP handle the list of links and Misplaced Pages the article content. It indeed seems popular. Your say "I saw it misused today" and that makes it sound like you assume bad faith. // Liftarn

• It may be popular, but the point of our guideline pages is not to advertise popular websites. >Radiant< 11:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Popular to use in Misplaced Pages. That should prove that it indeed has value. // Liftarn

So its safe to remove these when found? - Denny 20:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that a discussion on the Talk page would be appropriate before removing them. The policy here says they are acceptable, so just removing them without any comment would not be appropriate in my opinion. One Edit summary made a comment that Google Search results and a DMOZ category are the same. I would like to hear more about your opinions on this, since in my opinion they are completely different. I don't believe that it is germane to talk about how much it has been done - that doesn't make it right or wrong. The EL policy says it can be done. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 20:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that dmoz (love the site, for what its worth) is a collection of links back to other external sources. From that respect simple linking to individual dmoz pages while a potential convenience to readers is a complete end-run around all our rules for judging who and what we link to. Adding a dmoz link to a subject that the article covers in and of itself I would say is completely unneeded. Nice, but unneeded. - Denny 20:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah Denny, I see you already went ahead and removed 16 of them... :-( -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 20:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought about it for a long while, and actually did remove those specifically since they weren't adding anything to the article. :( - Denny 20:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with some of them, and have reverted others - some of them had 30, 50 or 111 entries, which in my opinion do add to the article. I left the ones with none or only a few as deleted. Sorry to be skeptical, but according to your logs you asked the question here and then 6 minutes later started removing links. It would have been nice to give people time to answer first :-) I am not saying they should be kept, necessarily, but I am suggesting that there should at least be a discussion first. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that if after reading the Archived version of this discussion (which has been had twice since I became a WP editor) and presumably before then too, we talk about changing the policy, and not doing mass-deletions of DMOZ categories. Previous discussions are: Yahoo Directory and DMOZ, Link to DMOZ, DMOZ Again (that one was about me), Use_of_deep_links_into_DMOZ_categories - you will see that the issue has some passionate advocates on both sides of the argument. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The guideline is very clear: avoid linking to search engine result pages. If you want to link, then you need to explain the reasons why you want to link and the benefits to the article. The EL section is not a dumping ground for a collection of on-line sources that, per policy, should not be included in an article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

So... should we have a general DMOZ link to an article's given topic, or is it safe to remove it? As we can't ever guarantee any editorial oversight I would think 'no', and would be happy to do drudge work of removing frivilous DMOZ links if that's the right thing. - Denny 16:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

DMOZ pages are not "search results pages". Please act in good faith. If you want to change the guideline, then get a consensus. Clearly the overwhelming consensus is contrary to what you want as many editors have voiced support for sometimes using Dmoz categories, and many more have added them to articles. 2005 21:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is a quote from the Misplaced Pages:External links section titled "Links to be considered":

"A web directory category, when deemed appropriate by those contributing to the article, with preference to open directories."

Search engine results are not the same as a web directory page. Such as a category page at the Open Directory Project (dmoz). There are many web pages that list relevant links by topic. Each link list, directory, category, and subcategory page should be considered on its merits in my opinion. If the editor of the directory or topic list is putting in relevant links, and is not including problematic links for the most part, then it could be a useful external link for wikipedia.

I suggest we add some kind of clarification such as: "If the category page has more than a few problematic links that violate wikipedia guidelines, then wikipedia should not link to the category." --Timeshifter 10:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I see no difference between DMOZ and Yahoo! Directory or Google Directory]. We should not link any of these. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not think that DMOZ should be used, as there is no editorial control over it. Buddhipriya 20:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Alucard and 2005 are right. There have been numerous discussions and consensus building regarding Misplaced Pages's use of DMOZ as an "unofficial" link repository. In addition to the four discussions listed by Alucard, also see Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 December 15#Template:Dmoz and Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 January 19#Template:NoMoreLinks, both of which resulted in a clear "Keep" results and solid support for our use of DMOZ.

Thus, I would strongly oppose any blanket removal of the DMOZ templates in articles, and I fully support its mention in this guideline. It has an established, albeit weak, consensus for use, it is not a search engine result, and it has just as much editorial oversight as we have here. -- Satori Son 21:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

there are new arguments, Satori Son, and this discussion proves that the consensus is disputed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Do we really need to go through this yet again. Just because you don't now agree agree means nothing to the consensus achieved. If you want to get something changed, GET A CONSENSUS. If you don't get a consensus, please do not edit this guideline for substance. Edits for typos and clarifications are fine. 2005 21:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with your principle. Unless there is a clear and wide consensus for adding the DMOZ part, we should not do so. If there is such clear and wide consensus somewhere on this Talk page, please point me to it. Thanks, Crum375 22:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Scroll up. Additionally the text has been there for about six months. 2005 22:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I did, before posting. I see major disagreements about DMOZ and no consensus for adding it. Crum375 22:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It was added late October, if it has been in that long that's the consensus you're looking for. If you want to remove something that has been stable for so long, you should have consensus for the change, and until there's clear consensus it should stay in, not be revert warred over. Not to mention that it's a bit dishonest to call reverting back in something that has been there for months changing the policy. --Minderbinder 22:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's WP:AGF about 'dishonesty'. I missed the fact that this change was added in October 2006, but I still feel there is no consensus for it. Was there consensus for the change when it was added? If so, where can I find it? Crum375 23:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Please read the above. There was an entire "workshop" rewrite of the guideline discussed for literally months. There is no pithy little two sentences to refer to. There was four months or so of give and take where the guideline was made more coherent and focused. And just for the record, as you could see from the threads, I don't like the template part of that paragraph, but accepting it is what happens in achieving a consensus, people accept some non-perfect stuff. They don't just ignore the wishes of the significant majority and remove stuff just because they personally don't like it. 2005 23:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Since the DMOZ text has been there for quite a while, and multiple discussions about removing it have not reached a concensus, I really think that a proposal to remove should be the subject for an WP:Rfc, and see if there is a concensus to remove. But please do not just remove it without reaching that concensus. If there are new arguments then they can be stated at the intro to the RfC, and then all interested parties can read them and consider whether that warrants a change or not. Essentially calling something "revert" that has been there so long is not the way things should be around here. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 23:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

From WP:Consensus: "Silence equals consent" is the ultimate measure of consensus — somebody makes an edit and nobody objects or changes it. Most of the time consensus is reached as a natural product of the editing process. It's unreasonable to look at an edit months ago and insist that other editors produce evidence of other people stating their agreement. If there wasn't agreement, it wouldn't have made it into the policy and stayed there for months. We can certainly discuss and see if there's consensus to remove it - if there are objections, I'd also suggest proposing improvements to the text that would fix those objections instead of just removing it. --Minderbinder 23:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I was not involved in the discussion to allow DMOZ as EL. I guess I am very confused. Am I the only person here who thinks that allowing DMOZ essentially points our readers into the equivalent of a Google search? Even if volunteers somewhere maintain it, we as Wikipedians have no control over the link collection. So please enlighten me - since to me this seems to be in direct contradiction to the rest of WP:EL. Crum375 23:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Crum, that very point was brought up in the discussions that I and others referenced earlier. There have been arguments made on both sides during those discussions. I don't feel that a link to a DMOZ category (or a category of any other suitable directory that we can all agree on) is anything like the results of a search engine. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 23:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me to be a link into a linkfarm, over which we as Wikipedians have no direct control. I feel that unless there is wide consensus for this kind of change, it should be removed. If there is such consensus, I am still waiting for a pointer to the relevant thread. Crum375 23:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

As you have noted, the change was made months ago. It was not reverted. The "Silence equals consent" part of WP:Consensus means that after this much time, there doesn't have to be a referencable thread. There needs to be wide consensus to remove it, in my opinion. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 23:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that as of now, this guideline is self contradictory. I am not at all sure that people are aware of that. I will wait for more comments here by others before acting. Crum375 23:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no contradiction. Just saying there is one, and making the rather wild claim that a hand chosen directory list is the same as results from the search engine really does not give anything for people to respond to. Dmoz categories are sometimes a great link for broad topics that could have hundreds of valuable external links. Misplaced Pages is not a link directory, and it is soemthing that wants to make valuable articles for users. A directory link can serve a good purpose, and that idea (one directory link) has been in the guideline for years. It has only been refined now to eliminate somejunkdirectory.com from consideration, and offered a bit on info when a directory category is a good idea. 2005 02:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Crum375, I took part in some of the DMOZ discussions last year and we included some of the editors from DMOZ. The one distinction you need to remember between a DMOZ directory and a Google search result is that Google makes no judgement about the content reliability or accuracy. It simply applies a computer algorith based on links and content and then ranks websites based upon a specific search term. The famous "Miserable Failure" search term clearly demonstrates how its results can be manipulated. With DMOZ, there is a set of human eyes that evaluates each site for relevance, content and quality before its added. Although this is a human process that has all of its shortcomings, it is still a valuable one.

I do not believe DMOZ should be used indescriminately, but it has clear value when used to fight spam. I've used it a dozen or more times, and each time, when used with an appropriate message, link spam was dramatically reduced on an article that prior to its inclusion was a haven for frequent spamming. As such, I've always viewed DMOZ as an asset to WP. Calltech 01:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Combating spam should not be a criteria for using DMOZ, as we could apply the same for Yahoo Directory, or other directories that are "human driven". The concern is that, as there the editorial process for these directories is opaque, we are relying on unknown criteria and in violation of WP:V and contradicting the wording of the guideline. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The fact that there IS an editorial process by an individual(s) that has some knowledge associated with a DMOZ category puts DMOZ ahead of Yahoo! or other directories that are more concerned about format and style than knowledge of the content. Yahoo! doesn't have experts in every category where it places websites. Pragmatically, using DMOZ to combat spam in selective instances works - why remove such a valuable tool? Calltech 16:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I was a DMOZ editor for several years, and I can assure you that the editorial control is haphazard , at best. There absolutely no proof that directory entries at DMOZ are any different that other directories such as Yahoo directory. This idea of linking to DMOZ is simply not sound, in addition of being contradictory to the language on the guideline (Links to avoid section) despite arguments about consensus, that obviously is being challenged in this discussion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Denny nails it. This is an end-run around the NOT clause. Those who are stating consensus is required for changes need to get consensus to change WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of links before there is any validity to any argument to keeping DMOZ. It conflicts. It conflicts with WP:EL, WP:SPAM as well. So, go get consensus to change those three, and there will be a point to this. Otherwise, no. KillerChihuahua 18:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Linking to Livejournal.com

I removed a ton of links to Livejournal.com communities from this article... my thinking is that as we can't know a thing about the editorial standards of some random LJ, it shouldn't be linked to in such a fashion. Is this a good move? - Denny 20:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

ask over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam--Hu12 06:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. For sourcing/ELs though, what do you think though...? I'd think for a source they're no good. - Denny 06:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Always no on a Livejournal link, allowing for rare exceptions where it can be confirmed the livejournal is written by a recognized authority in his/her field. --SubSeven 10:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• 99% of blogs should not be linked to. Indeed, we make exceptions for recogized authorities, which most of Livejournal isn't. >Radiant< 10:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Noted, thanks guys. - Denny 16:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Links in infoboxes

Does the condition concerning sites that demand installation of plugins apply to "official" websites placed in infoboxes? One has just been added to Upen Patel; according to the site, it "requires the latest flash plugin, 1152x864 screen resolution, and a broadband connection". I'd normally remove it from an "external links" list, but I'm not sure about this. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 21:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It only says "avoid" not "don't". If it's the official site then include it - along with the "explicit indication of the technology needed". And I don't see the reason for normally remove it from an "external links" list just because of the rich media unless it's deemed not appropiate for content (and I guess "avoid" would indicate a removal if there was a text site that was equal or better). - Ctbolt 22:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, the usual response of other editors is to remove such links (I don't really see much difference between "avoid doing it" and "don't do it", to be honest). Given the relative unimpotance of external links for anything except giving sources, what's wrong with removing them in such cases? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 12:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Linking to legal episode downloads of a show (commercial site with ads) Spam/EL issue

I'm looking for comments on the inclusion of a link to In2TV episodes of Babylon 5 on the shows page. Concerns have been raised over the commercial nature of the site, that is also contains links to other shows, and that it is ad supported. In2TV provides free episodes that contain ads. Actually being able to watch the episodes of Babylon 5 is likely something a reader of the page would find valuable. I'm wondering if the inclusion would be approriate. It seems that the WP:EL policy is rather unclear about this type of situation. (I personally feel that the link should be included) There has also been some discussion on the babylon 5 talk page relating to this issue Talk:Babylon_5#"Free" video link still forbidden. Monty845 18:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's unclear because EL is a guideline and not a policy. :) In any case...

We don't need the link. If it's legal, then I don't see the harm in it. It's obviously related to the subject, it obviously fits into the type of thing we typically WANT to link to the only problem seems to be that the site is commercial in nature... Being commercial doesn't mean we can't link to it. We show preference to non-commercial websites when the choice exists... but there aren't many legal sources for online TV outside of commercial websites. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 22:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Fourm

Every time i put my fourm up in a day its down again yet i know another fourm that is let stay up why is my site so wrong can someone tell me the website is spencerzone-A Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em Fourm — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaAman (talk • contribs)

Our guidelines explicitly state that forums are generally not allowed and that you should refrain from linking directly to sites you are involved with. The message left on your talk page asked you to discuss the link on the article talk page, but instead of doing this you used the talk page to promote your website and then added the link to the article again. This is what Misplaced Pages considers to be spamming. Other forums may be there because they have gained community consensus, or because they have not yet been spotted by an editor who is concerned about them. In any case the existence of one link does not mean that other links are acceptable. If you believe you link can add encyclopedic value to the article you need to make your case on the talk page and gain the consensus of editors there. -- Siobhan Hansa 20:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Specifically refer to Misplaced Pages:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided guideline #3 and #10, also your forum doesn't seem to meet any of the Misplaced Pages:External_links#What_to_link guidlines. Monty845 20:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Additionaly it has only has a total of 2 members.--Hu12 20:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Assistance with external links in Health freedom movement

The Health freedom movement article has had a number of external link problems, none that I'd definitely categorize foremost as a spam problem, more just WP:NOT#LINK and WP:EL problems. The article is rather unique in that it's about an ongoing promotional campaign

While we made good progress with an earlier external link cleanup in February, we'd most appreciate outside opinions on the Health_freedom_movement#Campaigners.2C_organizations.2C_and_newsfeeds section. Currently we have a version without external links, and a very short discussion about it in Talk:Health_freedom_movement#Linkfarm that was started after some back-and-forth revisions. The old version had 17 external links . I thought the removal of external links would not be controversial, but one editor has the understandable concern that "edits should improve articles, replacing a functioning link with a dead link to a non-existent WP article does not improve the article." 17 red links look pretty ugly... --Ronz 03:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand the background to the restrictive wordings in WP:EL. Many editors are used to the Net Culture of generous linking and I have seen many examples of newbie editors who have a big problem accepting link removal. Hence, the strong wordings in WP:EL. However, the WP:EL has to be interpreted, such as in the various consensus debates on this Talk page and the EL Workshops , . When reading these texts, it is clear that the actual interpretation of WP:EL is more flexible.

There is a clear and obvious consensus that an article about a subject should have at least one EL – to its own official web site. I think it is reasonable that this principle can be expanded if the article covers a broader topic that includes several entities. Look for example how external links are used in articles in the category Political Movements . For this type of articles WP:EL is obviously adapted to the fit the topic.

The Health Freedom Movement article is a rather long overview article. The article claims that the HFM consists of a loose global coalition of a number of activists, campaigners, and opinion makers. I find it strange that the ELs to some of the most vocal and important of these are controversial.

There is now a controversy over 19 links. How will the article be improved by reducing them? By removing EL to organizations outside the United States? By removing a direct link to an open source documentary film about the subject? Will verifiability of the claim that there are a number of HFM organizations be improved if links to these organizations are removed and replaced with “red” dead links to non-existing WP articles?

I am all for that if there is a WP-article about one of these organizations, the link should be internal (and the EL should be from that other article). But if no such article exists? I don’t want to start 19 stubs with a few lines of text and an EL just to circumvent an overly strict interpretation of WP:EL. In the future the missing 19 articles might be available, but I want to produce an informative encyclopedic coverage of the topic that works now. In the future the HFM article might also split into sub-topics (e.g. for the Geographical regions) and then the number of ELs in each article will be lower. But in the meantime? MaxPont 13:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Include the relevant, verifiable information from those external links in the Misplaced Pages article text, and cite the links as sources. We're supposed to be spending our time improving the Misplaced Pages article text and filtering such sources through WP:V and WP:RS, not just finding external sites to link to. This is the basis of WP:NOT#LINK and WP:NOT#INFO. Nineteen external links is excessive by any measure, and a movement that cannot be adequately described without including that many links may not be a truly organized "movement", but just a catchphrase to which a number of websites have signed on. MastCell 16:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's just keep in mind that the health freedom movement is a very real movement and that its existence has already been verified by articles in the orthodox media. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2002/09/13/dp1301.xml and http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1157031,00.html Vitaminman 23:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Fansites

Didn't this used to say something about no linking fansites? Can we include this? Any thoughts? IvoShandor 12:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this why Google exists? Why even bother linking to fansites/forums/possibly unreliable information? I mean, if you can use Misplaced Pages, you can use Google. We don't need to provide links to everything. In my experience this lack of consensus has led to nothing but conflict, off wiki canvassing, personal attacks, edit wars etc. etc. etc. IvoShandor 12:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

We don't provide "links to everything". That's silly. We have a guideline for meritable linking, which is this. If you have constructive comments, feel free to suggest them. Saying no linking to fasites is weird and thoughtless, and has never been the guideline. I'd encourage you to start thinking about building a better encyclopedia, not frankly bizarre black and white ideas that have nothing to do with user value and encyclopedic merit. 2005 21:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I came here to say the same thing; who removed it, and why? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 13:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Going back into the history, the clearest was: "Fanlistings are generally not informative and should not ordinarily be included." At some point this was replaced by a long and overly explanatory comment about "non-reciprocal sites", of which fansites were the example. Now there's nothing. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 13:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd add "or reliable" to the "not informative" bit. But more important, I'd like to see this added back even without that minor and possibly contentious wording change. --Yamla 14:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the crieria should be based on the notability of the fansite relative to the availability of other informative sources. -- Monty845 15:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Please remember this is an encyclopedia. We have a guideline for external links. This is it. The guideline is based on what is best for users and the encyclopedia itself, not random nonsense. We have had plenty of discussions about this. The guideline covers what should and should not be linked to based on merit, uselfulness, reliability and so on. Ownership of a domain has nothing to do with encyclopedic merit. 2005 21:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll be bold... --Mel Etitis (Talk) 14:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I do enjoy boldness. Thank Mel. IvoShandor 15:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not be arrogant. There is a process for changing this guideline. It's called consensus. Making changes to something that was the result of many months of discussion is not just inappropriate, it is downright rude. Please show respect for other editors in the future, and please at least read the thousands of words of discussion on this or any other topic before changing a guideline in direct contradiction to ongoing consensus. 2005 21:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Thought: at what point does a fansite theoretically became an RS? When its successful? When its cited in turn by other sources? A blanket restriction would also restrict some actual 'fannish' news sites, which are considered fan sites simply for focusing on a subset of culture. Just a thought. - Denny 21:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

A blanket restriction is of course just dumb. We aren't here to just link to corporate owned sites. We are here, this guideline anyway, to provide links to material that goes over and above the articles. Sometimes fansites do that and are excellent resources on topics, especially obscure ones. Very often they are useless. But we need to judge them on their value to users and the encyclopedia. Fan sites like filmsite.org are sometimes highly authoritative; sometimes they are thrown together junk. The guideline currently cares about the information, not whether something is owned by Tim Dirks or Time Warner. 2005 21:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I swear that this existed once before, I see no real consensus for its removal above either. Was it added without consensus then? This page is seemingly jacked up, if it is that unstable how are we supposed to apply the guideline? IvoShandor 09:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In addition there doesn't seem to be a word about them on the page, considering how much trouble I have seen them cause a mention would be merited somewhere so editors could apply the guideline as well as cite it in discussion, if fan sites are to be considered on a case by case basis then shouldn't the page say something about it, at least mention it. As for 2005 people arrogant, good strategy, that oughta be conducive to discussion, please point out the consensus, I saw above a discussion involving three or four editors but nothing closely resembling consensus. If it is in the archives, perhaps you could link it please, as they are quite hefty. Thanks. IvoShandor 09:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The guideline "says something" about external linking. It says a lot. You seem to want to just ignore it for some reason. 2005 02:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

<deindent> My major problem with fansites is that the vast majority of them are stuffed full of image and multimedia copyvios and as such are prohibited by WP:C - not knowingly linking copyright violations. That takes priority over EL as it is a policy and EL is a guideline. --Spartaz 09:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

So the vast majority won't be linked to because they fail to meet the criteria of the guideline. 2005 02:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

That is a problem too. Which should be discussed.

Ownership of a domain has nothing to do with encyclopedic merit

I have to say 2005, while I respect your opinion, I disagree with it (and I am not trying to be arrogant). There are plenty of domains around the Wiki that are known spam domains, ownership could definitely come into play. IvoShandor 09:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Read the guideline please. Spam domains would not merit links. 2005 02:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

All in all, it doesn't matter, I don't want to argue. I just came here looking for some guidance on the page about fansites, found no mention and said something. This page was most unhelpful in that arena, as I am working on trying to resolve an edit war as a neutral party. Though, I think a solution may have been reached regardless. IvoShandor 09:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Read the guideline. Your comments really don't make much sense. The guideline is detailed about we link to. If you are adding or removing something based on whether it is owned by a fan versus a corporation, that is inappropriate editing and you should stop. Spend some time reading the guideline, and if you are a masochist, the lengthy rewrite discussions from the last six months of 2006. 2005 02:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips, I am not removing any links, I want to be able to apply the guideline appropriately and its not very detailed if it doesn't even mention the fact that these sites should be considered on case by case basis, because there are certainly sites that aren't. I have read the guideline, perhaps you should assume good faith. IvoShandor 05:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

For instance: The average fan site hosted on Geocities generally fails the first What to link to criterion:

There are several things that should be considered when adding an external link.

• Is it accessible to the reader?
• Is it proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?
• Is it a functional link, and likely to continue being a functional link?

Each link should be considered on its merits, using the following guidelines. As the number of external links in an article grows longer, assessment should become stricter.

Because Geocities sites are neither accesible (due to constantly being down b/c of bandwith nor are they likely to be functional on a continuing basis, usually. Some domains inherently have problems like this, regardless of content. IvoShandor 05:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

As you can see, the guideline covers that. 2005 05:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

So can we at least mention fan sites somewhere in this guideline or no? It's hard to cite this guideline in discussion because the come back is easy, well it doesn't say anything about fansites.... IvoShandor 05:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Whatever, nevermind. This is clearly fruitless. I guess this page isn't going to go into specifics, on fansites. IvoShandor 06:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Fansites can offer useful info just as well as any other non-official site. If a fansite violates copyright or other EL clauses, it won't be linked for those reasons (just like any other site). If it meets the EL criteria, it should be linked (just like any other site). Not to mention that since "fansites" isn't really defined by wikipedia, so a mention here without a definition would just lead to arguments over which sites are fansites. It hasn't been part of this policy for good reason, please don't add it without consensus. --Minderbinder 12:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Stop lecturing me. You are acting as if I added it. I have NEVER edited this page. Jeez, people need to lay off. I asked a question and got berated for this whole thread. What the crap? IvoShandor 12:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not lecturing you, and I'm not acting as if you did anthing. A question was asked, and I gave an opinion. AGF, be civil, chill out already and don't take responses so personally. --Minderbinder 13:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Whatever, nevermind. This is clearly fruitless. I guess this page isn't going to go into specifics, on fansites Maybe I should have added "it's cool" to the end, like I meant to. It's fine, I don't care. This is just an area I am starting to familiarize myself with and the last time I was here I thought I saw mention of fansites. Maybe I'm nuts. IvoShandor 13:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of how authoritative everyone here thinks this guideline is it did not help to resolve the craziness at Rule of the Rose. Which is why I came here, another page I never edited. That perhaps is one of the lamest edit wars ever and this didn't help at all, in fact it got me accused of being a troll when I posted it....that aside, that user was blocked. No one ever answered my original question though, didn't it used to say something? When was this? Am I confused, or was I reading something else? Anyone? (and no, I don't want to add it, this is just a question not a proposal).IvoShandor 13:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

In the past it has said "Fanlistings are generally not informative and should not ordinarily be included. On articles about topics with many fansites, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate, marking the link as such." I think it was right to remove it, particularly since wikipedia discourages using quotas like that, and it was contradicted by other guidelines. --Minderbinder 13:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Somehow I've missed all this discussion. Just to set one or two things straight: this page used to rule out links to fansites, and that was removed without (so far as I've been able to find) consensus. Many of us were unaware of this, and have continued to remove links to fanistes. Indeed, this view has been used in a number of disputes, discussed in places such as WP:AN/I, and it's clear that most editors are unaware that the strictre was removed. In putting it back (after a discussion, albeit a brief one, I restored the status quo ante. 2005's talk of arrogance was not only uncivil, it was wrongheaded.
  Misplaced Pages isn't a link farm. There are many sites on the Web that point to fansites — indeed, interested people can Google for them; this is, however, supposed to be an encyclopædia. Fansites are rarely (I'd say never) reliable, in that they're inherently baised towards their subjects. We shouldn't link to them.
  Incidentally, I've never seen a dispute over what is and isn't a fansite. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 15:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The guideline was rewritten five or six months ago, and singling out fansites was abandoned then. It was a long process with a lot of discussion and compromise by many parties and the consensus at that time was that it was inappropriate to single out fansites. The reasoning being that a fansite that meets the other requirements of WP:EL shouldn't have to jump through additional hoops to be included. Especially since for some pop culture areas some of the fan sites are the best source of critical review of the subject matter. Objections were mainly that there was too much fansite cruft on wikipedia, and we needed all the strong wording we could to help keep it down. While I subscribed to the latter of these arguments the overall consensus favored leaving out specific mention. -- Siobhan Hansa 16:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks; a number of us obviously missed it. Perhaps, though, it could now be discussed again, as there seems quite a bit of support for reinserting a specific mention. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

You can start a discussion of any new principle you want, but a very long discussion of a significant rewrite involving dozens of editors giving and taking that led to the current consensus. Additionally, among the community of editors there is certainly no widespread consensus to prohibit fansites. To the contrary quite obviously, as literally thousands of editors have added them in good faith. Of course many that don't qualify under the guideline are added to, just like all kinds of spam is added too. The guideline covers all this though. The bottom line is the guideline covers links that merit linking. It's useful to anyone, even if all of us would perhaps prefer more clarity one way or another on some of the items. It does not make irrational statements for no valuable reason, and it doesn't seek to end run the general behavior of the mass of editors. The oversimplified point is to have good links useful to users, and not have links that add nothing or very little to the user experience. That should be a good guide to any good faith editor. 2005 23:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that Misplaced Pages is full of editors who are essentially adolescent boys with time on their hands and an uncritical enthusiasm for pop music, video games, etc. — just the sort of topics for which fansites exist. Trying to persuade them that a site doesn't meet a complex set of criteria here is pointless; they have neither the intellectual capacity nor the attention span for it. To be able to say: "look, fansites aren't allowed" makes life immesaurably easier. There are literally hundreds of thousands of articles infested with editors like this, and it's a frustrating business trying to keep some sort of order. I've never seen a fansite that belonged in an external links section, which is doubtless also part of my approach to the issue. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like you either need to WP:AGF or find another outlet for your interests. Insulting the mass of editors and articles is not helpful or sensible either. 2005 00:00, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

While Mel's language may have been somewhat harsh, I understand and fully sympathize with his frustration. And his assessment of the current state of external linking is fairly accurate. As such, I support putting the fansite prohibition language back into this guideline. -- Satori Son 15:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I also fully support the restoration of the original guideline. I just came here to cut/paste it into a discussion, and was disappointed to see that it had somehow been removed. Neier 12:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

• I would also fully support the restoration of the original guidline. I also came here looking for policy for fansites that I've read before but find no longer exists. It seems that out of thousands of editors that use these guidines regularly, only a handful (3-4) claimed consensus of change of policy in this discussion. A few relative changes are HERE and HERE. I must say, the way #13 now reads in Misplaced Pages:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided is probably one of the most confusing paragraphs I've ever had to endure. Cricket02 07:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I still haven't seen a reason why fansites should be treated any differently from other sites, and every example of a fansite that shouldn't be linked can already be removed under the other criteria already listed. Aside from discussion here, on the encyclopedia itself, there's huge support for linking fansites, and when the policy said "one fansite" (quota, which is frowned upon on wikipedia) it was often disregarded when there was more than site that met EL and was worth linking. If you really want to add wording discouraging linking to fansites, you need to publicise that discussion very widely so that editors are aware and can participate. I do agree that 13 reads very convoluted, but what's scary is that it used to be even worse. --Minderbinder 12:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Individual WikiProject rules on External Links

What's the precedent if an individual WikiProject proposes adopting a different (more restrictive) version of this policy on the articles that the project maintains? The proposal, in its infancy stages right now over on WikiProject Aquarium Fishes. If I was trying to link to a site and that particular link was allowed under WP:EL, but not allowed under such WikiProject rules, should that link be allowed? Neil916 (Talk) 17:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

WikiProjects have no more authority than any other random set of editors. But because they generally take a considered approach to articles and have already built some consensus, normally based on good reason, around an issue they tend to be fairly influential. If an editor believes the actions of a wiki-project do not lead to good encyclopedia articles s/he should discuss it with the other editors and, if necessary, continue down the dispute resolution path. The guidelines here are a guide to deciding if a link should be included, but in the end we are trying to build an NPOV, GFDL encyclopedia, sometimes the rules will need to be more or less strictly interpreted to get the best results. -- Siobhan Hansa 18:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Maintaining an article is not the same as owning an article. Personally, I think its really important to try and maintain a consistent approach across the whole project so my view is that the guideline should always trump the views of an individual wikiproject. Ideally. i'd like to see much less in the way of external links but that won't happen anytime soon, so in the meantime we should all try to work against the same standards - i.e. the guideline. --Spartaz 10:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio Weasel words

Just something I would like to confirm with the assembled experts.

I just removed an EL to a site that published copyrighted lyrics from a musical artist. At the bottom of each song it has the following text: "All lyrics are property and copyright of their owners. All lyrics provided for private study, scholarship, or research reasons only."

Now in my mind that doesn't make it suddenly not a CopyVio and we should not be linking to that site. Does anyone have any different opinion on this? -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 20:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the site? Are you sure that it doesn't have permission to use the lyrics on condition that notice is used? As long as we don't copy them, what would be wrong with a link to the site? (Where do the weasel words come in, by the way?) --Mel Etitis (Talk) 21:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can answer the second part easily - take a look at Misplaced Pages:External_links#Restrictions_on_linking - that is QUITE clear. As for the first part, I have no way of knowing, and that is my question - we have discussed here before that we do not link to lyrics sites unless there is some distinct permission to use on the site (this should be in the archives for this talk page). My question is whether this is actually a CopyVio page, and the text I quoted were attempts at WeaselWords to get around CopyVio, or if they suffice. The site is www.quasimodobell.com/default.aspx/tabid/130/groupid/1465/gingroup/MEAT+LOAF/lyrics/1 -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 22:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear; my third question (which I assume you were responding to) was predicated on the second. Looking at the site, though, this talks at some length about copyright, but still doesn't make things clear. perhaps we should contact them to ask for the copyright status of the lyrics. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 23:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be better to contact the copyright owners of some of the songs than the site who may be violating copyright. Just a thought. -- Siobhan Hansa 12:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Sites requiring registration

Not allowing links to these sites seems reasonable to me — but if they're allowed when there's no other source for the information, I can't see what's going on. Why weren't they allowed in the first place? It reminds me slightly of saying that dogs aren't allowed into restaurants on grounds of hygiene, but making an exception for guide dogs (because they've been trained to have a shower before going out to eat, presumably...) --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and will remove the addition for now until it can be discussed a little further and consensus reached. Let's be clear - this isn't about citing sources. Sometimes a reliable source such as a newspaper will require registration or purchase to view an article, but we link it anyway as a citation. However, when it comes to external links, they should all be readily available without registration or payment. Otherwise, they don't add much of any use to the average reader of the article. MastCell 22:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

In the draft, I had made an amendment: sites requiring registration could be used as references if they are presented as an inline reference. Anyone can create a reference section and add a link to the site requiring registration, which is just an attempt to bypass the "External links" restriction. Thus, I had asked to rewrite that so that if someone wants to add a link to a site requiring registration, it should be as an inline reference, immediately following the sentence or phrase that is referencing. -- ReyBrujo 02:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Inline references are governed by a different set of rules... WP:EL applies specifically to external links. MastCell 04:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the external link guideline should state that such links should not be used as external links but instead as reference, pointing them to WP:RS or WP:CITE. -- ReyBrujo 04:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

ReyBrujo, you seem to want to apply EL guidelines to references that aren't inline. While I agree that these sections are often abused, and I'd like to see them phased out, I don't think this guideline has the mandate to extend itself into that area. I also think it may be a tactical mistake to strip out all these links - it makes it harder for editors to go in and find which assertions in an article a particular reference supports. It might make more sense to try and get a prohibition on adding new non-inline references, but this isn't the place. -- Siobhan Hansa 12:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be inappropriate for any WP policy or guideline to forbid general, non-inline, references. Also, it would be outside the scope of this External links guideline to do so. An example of when it would be appropriate to include a general reference is when an advanced article takes it for granted that the reader understands basic terms, but provides a good general reference that has an index and glossary that will allow a reader to look up any basic terms the reader does not understand. It would be unreasonable to expect the editor to include an inline reference to the definition of all the basic terms used in an article. --Gerry Ashton 17:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that references are outside the scope of this project, but I would think a link such as you give in your example ought to meet the basic requirements of these guidelines, such as not being a registration required site. It's not so useful to the reader if it's not accessible (and it would, presumably, have to meet the points about being on subject and NPOV in order to be useful as a general reference). -- Siobhan Hansa 18:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Sites that require registration and/or payment are useful to those readers who are willing to register, and possibly pay a fee. Of course it would be better to use an unrestricted site if the editor knows of one, but better a restricted site than an article with inadequate references. --Gerry Ashton 18:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstand your example. To me the example you give doesn't sound like a reference supporting an assertion or text in the article but more of a primer for a reader. Terms that rely on a very particular definition can be inline referenced (or possibly wikilinked), but if you you're looking to provide a resource that can be used by a reader to understand the general concepts and jargon of a subject area - that doesn't sound like an actual refernce for the article to me and I think it better falls into external links rather than references in terms of the guidelines that should be applied to it. -- Siobhan Hansa 03:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I hope that the important assertions in an article will have inline references, but I wouldn't expect every single assertion to have an inline reference. For an example of a featured article that contains many assertions, but depends mostly on general rather than inline references, see Trigonometric functions. --Gerry Ashton 05:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a great example Gerry. I think we're on the same page. I was reading too much of my own interpretation into your previous example. Thanks. -- Siobhan Hansa 12:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion requested

Can someone chime in on user talk:requestion #The original source for those links? There is a disagreement about whether links to researchchannel.org violate the external links guideline. I'd prefer that the conversation be kept in one place. Graham87 08:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Also see the section immediately before that titled "Linkspam ast.cac.washington.edu?" for more background. Graham87 09:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

SAFCO

Can I get some discussion please about the user Safco and a couple of links that were placed back to the SAFCO company website? One link is at Decontamination and the other is at Urban search and rescue. In both cases the user placed links to the website which, in my judgment, violates WP:EL and WP:COI. I have removed the links. From what I can obeserve, there was no information added to the article beyond the external links. In the case of the search and rescue article the link was placed as a "See Also" link. I would appreciate your thoughts on my action. JBEvans 11:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I've dealt with this (the account has been blocked as violating WP:U, and for spam-linking). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 21:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Registration

I happen to have a subscription to Ancestry.com which allows me to for one thing, view original images of census returns. I'm not comfortable with the implication here, that we cannot add an EL to say, the actual 1930 census image for Charlie Chaplin to his article. To my mind, it enhances the article to be able to add links to actual documents, even though they may require registration or payment to view. Wjhonson 20:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

If the source is cited correctly (the document and not the link) the user can choose which route to acquire a copy of the document. However, if you cite the webpage, the user is forced to subscribe to view a document that would otherwise be free to the public. --I already forgot 21:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't be discussing sources, because this guideline only covers external links that are not references. So the example of a census page available on Ancestry.com wouldn't fall under this guideline unless it was extra material, not used in creating the text of the article. If the Ancestry.com site provided enough information to find the hardcopy version too, you could list both the hardcopy and the online version. In that case, I suppose you would have the choice of putting it either in the External links section, or the Further reading section. --Gerry Ashton 06:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

My point is not just about source but also about providing additional info that is not included in the article. So what I'm saying is that if you have the main source of info available for free to the public, we do not need to add a link to pay per view site(s) and should list the source instead. If we provide the source, the user can perform their own search (using their own search engine) and decide which pay per view site they wish to use. Otherwise, every pay per view site will want to have their site listed in the EL as offering a paid copy of something that is available for free. Then wikipedians have to decide which pay per view site should be listed over the others which opens up another can of worms and other assorted conflicts of interest. To keep wikipedia honest, we need to sacrifice the loss of some external links in favor of adding additional content to the article (copy of a historical document, quotes, refs, etc.). If the link is a rare exception, it can be discussed on the talk page and added through consensus. --I already forgot 15:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay now what about EL's which *only* have an internet version? That is, there is no print version of what the EL is stating, and the EL requires registration. In particular the issue has been raised that ClassMates.com is not a reliable source for the statement that "So-and-so was in the Class of 19xx at Y High School". (It's a site that requires registration before you can verify what it says.) Nor for adding an EL indicating that either. What do you think? Wjhonson 20:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It has no place in the external links section. Registration on it's own knocks it out, but also, except perhaps in extraordinary circumstances, it's low on the quality scale in terms of adding encyclopedic information and insight. I wouldn't expect it to pass points 3 or 4 of "what should be linked to". As for the discussion on use as a source - that belongs elsewhere and isn't relevant to whether it's an appropriate as an external link. -- Siobhan Hansa 22:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The registration issue seems to be a complete red herring. Registration has no bearing on content. Period. ClassMates is a problem not because it does or does not have registration, but because it is a source of hearsay. The New York Times is no problem even though it does require registration.

For print sources that have versions that can be accessed on-line, a link to the online version should be provided if possible, but a regular print citation is also expected. I'm inclined to allow reference to registration-only sites if the source is considered reliable, maybe even if the general public cannot gain access. Free registration sites for acceptable sources are a no-brainer: they are intrinsically acceptable. Mangoe 00:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Clarification of rich media section

The rich media section as it is now is not well-written, as it talks about avoiding direct links to rich media then giving such a link (the PDF file) as an example of proper layout of links to rich media. The definition of a "direct link" is also not given - this has caused problems at user talk:requestion #The original source for those links (as I linked above), but this time my question is more related to the external links guideline so I'm bringing it up on the talk page. My definition of a "direct" link to rich media is based on the original version of the rich media section (which was subsequently [moved then clarified slightly. I define a direct link as one where the rich media is activated as soon as the browser window is opened by default (PDF files and many streaming media files being an example). Direct links to rich media cannot always be avoided (for example in PDF files, with links to YouTube videos and some audio files, an example being the first one in the article Der Erlkönig as there is no other way to conveniently get the audio). Therefore, the wording should be softened to "try to avoid" or something. That would be easy as long as there is consensus. A big problem for me is trying to figure out how to clarify what a "direct link" is because the wording has obviously caused confusion. Also the guideline to explicitly name the file format of the rich media seems to be rarely enforced. To be honest I think it is much more useful on direct links to rich media than indirect ones. Inadvertently clicking on a link and having the computer crash trying to load a large PDF file or load a poorly composed Java animation is much worse than going to some HTML page and finding that you haven't yet installed anything to play a .ogg file that you wanted to download. Graham87 08:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with Graham87's interpretation of the rich media section. WP:EL says to "avoid directly linking to any content that requires special software." I interpret this literally to mean no external links to flash, java, pdf, audio, or video. I also extend my interpretation to stub html pages whose sole purpose is to be a launch pad for the rich media. I believe the intent is two fold; one is for Misplaced Pages to link to pages that have content that is viewable in a web browser, second is for non-discrimination of codecs and operating system operability. For example; I am a Linux user and I cannot legally view Microsoft Media and QuickTime video. I don't have problems with a web page having rich media links on it but those links must be auxiliary to the useful content on the page. (Requestion 22:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC))

There is at least some content on some of those stub html pages - for example with researchchannel.org there is a further information section with links to more information about the program/subject. Rich media often *is* useful content (for example many articles are only available in PDF format so Misplaced Pages needs to link to them (often in a "References" section these days). Audio that can't be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons but is available free of charge can make an excellent external link. This radio show is about the most relevant link possible to add to Heart and Soul (song) (note: I didn't add it, I just clarified its content). I believe we disagree because we are both taking different approaches: you are interpreting the guideline literally as the last word on everything where as I am interpreting the guideline as a nutshell in terms of adding useful, accessible and tasteful links. Here is the very first external links guideline I know of which is about as close as you're going to get to the original intentions of anyone. Here is the guideline as it was in May 2004 (the only change after that was to add a navigation template in October 2004 which is meaningless in the context of this discussion). There is nothing there about forbidding rich media - just that it's a good idea to state the format of the rich media. I will ask user:Jmabel for his opinion about this conversation as he wrote the section which you are quoting to justify your position. Graham87 07:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The only content I see on the researchchannel.org pages is a brief description of a video that I can't play. From my perspective the page has zero content and the links are broken. I'm all for rich media but I have a huge problem when Misplaced Pages links to content that I cannot legally view. Misplaced Pages has a policy not to link to known copyright violations. Isn't this in a similar vein? (Requestion 19:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC))

It's not similar to the copyright issue. The copyright issue is about linking to sites that are breaking copyright and the legal and ethical issues involved in encouraging that. You may not be able to legally view the media with the equipment you run, but there are no laws broken by the media being there and us linking to it and the vast majority of our readers are able to legally view the media. -- Siobhan Hansa 14:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The idea is that when possible — when you are aware of an HTML page on a site that describes and is, in turn linked to — the rich media, you should link to that page. When a link goes directly to rich media, you should indicate the format (because, for example, someone with a slow connection and not too much memory on their system should not find themself sitting there with their system frozen for five minutes because they clicked on a link that happens to be a video or a PDF). Similarly, if there is a page describing an image, we should usually link that instead of externally linking an image.

Other than that: I don't particularly like PDFs, because they add overhead without really adding much information; they are often the only available format for a document, but when an HTML form is available, it should be preferred (or both should be offered). I'm all for linking truly rich media: for music and language-related matters, audio when available is irreplaceable (e.g. we should certainly link things things like KEXP's enormous and unique collection of live recordings, the Yiddish Radio Project, etc.). And, in general, many people will find audio and video more accessible than text. I'm all for linking a good English-language audio interview with the subject of a biography if one is available online, or an NPR or BBC story on the topic at hand: these are great resources for people who are less text-oriented than the people who tend to write Misplaced Pages. However, nearly always that should mean linking the HTML page that, in turn, links to the rich media. - Jmabel | Talk 18:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I have tried to clarify the section per that message. I have replaced the first link to a page with links to rich media with one where the rich media is imbedded - i.e. a link from Ride of the Valkyries as that is a well-known piece where the audio link is fitting. I have also added reasons for not directly linking to rich media and a link to the category containing rich media icons. To Requestion: linking to files in formats that happen to be patented and therefore cannot be played on all systems is *not* a copyright violation - the whole point of the external links section is to link to files that can never be on a Wikimedia project. The problems playing these files through linux are an issue (they can be played but the legal status of that varies by country, see FFmpeg for details) but that means that there should be other external links in more conventional formats for finding out about the subject. That is why in the article Tito Mukhopadhyay, I also linked to a page with the transcript of the video - the transcript happens to be in PDF format but we can't have everything. I would welcome application of the bold, revert, discuss cycle if anyone feels so inclined - this is a wiki after all. Graham87 04:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I fear your edits might be premature. Consensus really hasn't been reached yet and I believe there are some problems created by your edit. #1: The copyright status of the audio you link. It appears to be hosted by a private person on their personal website. There is inadequate information about the recording and as far as I can tell, it's a pretty flagrant abuse. #2: "Only link directly to content that requires special software or an add-on to a browser if ..." Only is the wrong word in this instance since WP:EL is a guideline, not a policy. Nposs 04:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As for the first objection, copyright is an interesting point but the site says "©1997-2007, Charles K. Moss" so I'd assume he has permission from the relevant authorities about the recordings. There are recordings there that clearly come from his piano students, but if needed I could try to find another example. As for the second one, "only" is probably a bad choice of words - I'll think about changing that. I've also replaced the carolinaclassical link with a link to the Fantaisie-Impromptu because having thought about it, it seems ironic to have a link to a piece by Richard Wagner followed by an article about Yiddish. Graham87 04:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I have a feeling that Angela Lear (the pianist featured in the recording) is not one of his students. So even if he does have recordings of his students, it would appear that he is also posting the recordings of others without their permission. I would recommend against any links to the site. I think this highlights another problem with rich-media links: copyright status. I realize there are a number of differing opinions about linking to material of dubious use, but rich media does pose a new set of problems for identifying ownership. Perhaps this should be mentioned in the guideline, as well. Nposs 05:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I have answered your second objection with my latest edit. Graham87 05:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow how do you know who the pianist is? Perhaps my screen reader isn't reading the details or I should download the file to find out. I will send an email enquiring about this - if it is a copyright violation then it definitely should not be linked. I highly doubt it is though - this seems to be a well-respected piano teacher. Graham87 05:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the html source, the file has not been uploaded to his server and is being hosted by what looks like Angela Lear's personal website. I shall dig further ... Graham87 05:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you have consensus yet for watering down the guideline in this way. I certainly do not agree that we should be more liberal about linking to rich media content. As it is, you are seeking to allow this when the guideline previously said Avoid directly linking to any content that requires special software, or an add-on to a browser. This is a major step away from the concept of an open project as we will be encouraging non-free formats. I have reverted back to the previous version subject to further clarification of concensus here. Spartaz 05:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

And you can get that exact recording and more by following the downloads link from her website (sorry can't paste the URL because it uses frames), so it is not a copyright violation. The carolinaclassical.com link uses the recording for streaming. Graham87 05:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope that is only a 1-minute sample. Graham87 05:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Graham87 - the sever path for this http://classicalmus.hispeed.com/lear/ doens't resolve to a proper website. Can you clarify exactly what link you are following? I suggest that you find a different example - I'm sure its possible to find one that has no doubts about its status. In this case it seems likely that the rights remain with the performer but unless we know the exact circumstances in which the recording was made we don't actually know that. --Spartaz 05:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

OK - on further investigation classicalmus.hispeed.com is the hosting service used by carolinaclassical.com to host its media and is not a website - in fact hispeed.com appears to be blocked by Google. I'll remove that as an example for now. Graham87 05:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

<deindent> all we need now is clarification on whether there is consensus to waterdown the wording on the guideline to encourage more use of links to rich media. For that we need further editors to weigh in. Spartaz 05:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I was probably a bit hasty in making my edits after the comment by Jmabel; I certainly won't change anything on the page now without consensus. Some of what I wrote changes the guideline about when the format of rich media should be specified and probably needs more discussion here. In some cases (as I have said above) it is impossible not to link directly to rich media (i.e. in the case of PDF's) so the wording should be softened there; the wording should also be softend from "avoid" because this is just a guideline. I think they were the only significant changes I made and more closely reflect current practice - I invite further discussion. Graham87 06:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see the guideline point out the reasons that weigh against linking to rich media and outline the alternatives clearly so that editors have knowledge from which to make a decision about whether to link - along the lines of links to rich media can add depth to an article but can cause also problems for readers. The need for additional software (some of which is not available to all users), greater bandwidth requirements, and accessibility issues can make such links useless for some users. When adding a link to content that is not a basic webpage editors should look for equivalent content in html format (for instance a transcript) to add instead or as well as the rich media. Editors must also ensure that any benefits from such a link are significant and outweigh the disadvantages of linking to media that may not be accessible to some readers. In particular, over reliance on rich media links should be avoided. Where possible links should always go to a launching page rather than directly to the media, and the media format should always be specified. -- Siobhan Hansa 15:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I like that wording. It's clear and outlines the reasons against linking to rich media, but also acknowledges that there can be benifits of linking to rich media. It doesn't need examples because the wording is self-evident so that guards against linking to copyright violations and link rot. Would there be any objections to using that paragraph in the rich media section? Graham87 01:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually examples would still be helpful but there would be no need to change the examples currently on the page. Graham87 01:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I object to removing emphasis on the word "avoid" and I also object to ignoring the "special software" accessibility problem that us Linux users suffer from. (Requestion 17:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC))

It's not just Linux users that can have a problem with rich media, and this is why I think the section should be very general - at the moment I read it as implying that all rich media can have accessibility problems to somebody, and that is true. Audio links without transcripts are useless to people who are deaf; images without descriptions are useless to people who are blind. Here's another example to throw in the ring which I just remembered: the official homepage of Tony Attwood that just happens to require Java, and is difficult (sometimes impossible) to use with screen readers. It would be ludicrous for me to remove that link because it's an official website - I have now pointed out that it requires Java. A lot of people use Linux and will have problems with links to proprietary codecs; I'm sure that a similar number of people will be using slow or unstable PC's (probably running Windows) that won't be able to run certain types of rich media. Because of the large variety of circumstances that people are likely to be in in terms of system performance and ability to use non-HTML sites, I think the section should be quite general in case it overflows with people's pet accessibility problems. There must be websites out there that explain the problems with rich media and if I can find a well-written one I'll suggest that it be added as further information. Graham87 03:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Those were all excellent reasons why the "avoid" wording should be strengthened. Why would Misplaced Pages want to encourage such potentially problematic external linking? (Requestion 21:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC))

<deindent> if we have agreed that we don't need to water this down, why not just leave it as it is. Avoid is nice and clear and we need to avoid instruction creep. Spartaz 22:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

YouTube vs. blogs

Can someone clarify for me why blogs are generally banned, but YouTube videos are not? Both sources seem open to the same problems with reliability. Λυδαcιτγ 23:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

we are trying to get rid of YouTube. Betacommand 00:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Blogs are generally not a valid EL, YouTube is not generally a valid EL. Each has to be considered on their own merits. IN general though, they fail all sorts of WP standards for inclusion. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 00:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. I'd be in favor of more moderate standards in both directions: allowing YouTube videos and blogs, but only good ones (in the case of blogs, not necessarily blogs written by experts, but ones written by credible sources). Λυδαcιτγ 22:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

That's pretty much the standard right now. The issues tend to be different, with YT the concern is more often copyright, but as long as the material isn't a violation and meets the rest of EL, it's OK. --Minderbinder 22:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

What do you think of the use of this blog page in Backmasking? Λυδαcιτγ 19:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as policy Blogs and YouTube are on equal footing... Both sometimes host official and reliable material and sometimes they host utter crap. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 06:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL is a guideline and not a policy. WP:EL says to avoid "links to blogs" and "direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java)." I should note that YouTube requires Flash. So I agree that Blogs and YouTube are on "equal footing" in that they both should be avoided. There is a thread over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#Special:Linksearch.2F.2A.blogspot.com about how well blogspot.com links have been avoided. (Requestion 21:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC))

blow molding design

There is a pretty good (short) article on plastic extrusion blow molding. It does not discuss double wall constructions or allow readers to learn about designing parts for the blow molding process. The company I work for has a design guide for the process. The link is http://www.custom-pak.com/BlowMolding/Index.html I would like feedback about the information in the link to enhance its usefulness to engineers and students interested in blow molded part design. Ultimately we woukd like to contribute the information to Misplaced Pages in an appropriate format. Thank you Mark rutenbeck 21:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)Mark Rutenbeck

First of all, let me say how much we appreciate you coming here first and seeking input on possibly linking your website. That is exactly the right way to do it.

Unfortunately, I do see some problems with the website linked above. It seems fairly promotional in nature. I am certainly no expert on plastic extrusion blow molding, so I don't know how readily available this type of information is, but has your company published this information anywhere else in a manner not so advertising-oriented? Has anyone from your company given a trade show presentation that might now be available online? Maybe written an article for an industry trade publication?

While it is great that you want to contribute specialized knowledge to the encyclopedia, it really needs to be in a neutrally presented format and backed-up by citations to reliable, third-party published sources. Hope this helps. -- Satori Son 21:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Examine existing articles such as Plastics extrusion and Blow molding. Several steps in the process are presently not described in much detail. Text could be donated to the Misplaced Pages articles if following policies such as WP:NPOV. Also examine the policies for donating images (the "Upload file" link on the side of the page has links to info). (SEWilco 05:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC))

Incidentally, the custom-pak page is hard to use as a reference. The index page only gives a little information, with mouseover abilities to show several images. It is not obvious that other little pieces of information are available through several levels of pulldown menus. The user interface seems oriented toward big pictures rather than reading the text, thus making it hard to see what is being said and hard to link to it as having significant information. All the paragraphs together seem to be informative, but only a few sentences at a time can be read or linked to. (SEWilco 05:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC))

The Chester Wiki: Appropriate or not?

I'd like some advice. Some users, usually anonymous ones with few other edits, have been adding various pages from (Chester Wiki) to various articles (such as History of Chester, and Chester). The guidelines for external links reads that "open wikis" are to be avoided, but I can't determine whether this is an open wiki or not. I'm also not sure how long this Chester wiki has been in existence or how stable or verifiable its entries are - the entries I have seen do not contain any citations or references for its claims, of which History of Chester is a typical exmaple. So, my questions are these: My inclination is to delete the external links. Would others share this viewpoint, and, if so, can a definitive list of justified reasons for this be given?  DDStretch  (talk) 15:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

By open we mean "anyone can edit" and anyone can edit the Chesterwiki. I'd agree that they aren't appropriate links. If all the local Chester-based regular editors on the article start saying "hay everyone in chester uses that wiki" you might wnt to put it back, but looking at, for instance, the pub guide, I'm pretty sure Chester has a few more pubs than that, and it hasn't been edited this month, so it's obviously not a comprehensive well up to date guide. As for definitive - well pretty much nothing's definitive on Misplaced Pages - but it falls to the person adding the link to justify that it improves the article. I think it would be hard to say it's the sort of information people would expect to find in an encyclopedia. -- Siobhan Hansa 19:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for the response.  DDStretch  (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

With only 15 editors and about 200 articles, it doesn't seem to have the critical mass to be a reliable link for wikipedia. --Minderbinder 16:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Providing the appropriate link while following the grey areas of the guidelines is often times a difficult decision for me so I'll give you an example of how I look at the wiki situation.

If the article is about a space shuttle and the linked wiki is administered by NASA, it's a useful resource and may contain more info than the article can handle so it could be included as a link. If the wiki is about a space shuttle and is administered by vendors or manufacturers of NASA and contains info on the components of the space shuttle, it’s a judgment call based off the content of the wiki. If the wiki is open to the internet and is edited/administered by individuals collecting information, I do not link to the wiki but use it to find additional sources of information or links to include in the article if any. More often than not, the open wiki is a mirror of wikipedia articles. --I already forgot 21:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Chester Wiki has only been going since 8 February 2007, so it's hardly likely to have reached critical mass yet. Of the 15 registered users only around 4 have contributed stuff to date. It is an open wiki - anyone can participate if they choose. Re existing content on there - of course there are more pubs in Chester and more of everything that hasn't yet been covered. Contributors are adding content in their spare time outside of holding down full-time jobs. One of us is a scientist/local historian/lawyer, one is a journalist, the others I'm not sure. It's starting to attract a lot of local readers, even though content remains thin at present. We hope it will grow organically and more people will start adding content. But give us a chance - 10 weeks is hardly a long time in the life of a wiki. Purpleprose 18:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• In my opinion the wiki itself would meet the criteria of WP:EL for the article on Chester (specifically it's level of detail unsuited to a general purpose encyclopedia). However, using it as a reference to verify factual information is unwise. If the ChesterWiki cites its sources, use those. --Dystopos 18:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry for being quite stupid here, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying: Is it that you think adding the link could be viewed as appropriate according to WP:EL, or that it could not be? Reading WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided, point 12 (Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors.) would seem to suggest that the link should not be added, but perhaps others aspects outweigh this, if you meant that the link's inclusion could be viewed as appropriate? Sorry.  DDStretch  (talk) 18:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for being unclear. I think a Wiki dedicated to a specific subject makes a very good external link for the main Misplaced Pages article on that subject. I suppose, then, that I disagree with point 12 of WP:EL, though I consider myself to be on board with the general concerns voiced in that guideline. My comment was intended to distinguish using the Chester Wiki as an external link from using it as a reference. --Dystopos 22:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I could also point out that the article on Chester Wiki about Chester Castle is far more in depth than the one on Misplaced Pages, which contains inaccuracies (the one on Chester Wiki has a lot of links to verified sources even if they are not cited as references. And also say that by removing the link to Chester Wiki, you are actually preventing more people from a) finding it, b) reading it and c) ultimately adding quality content to it... If you're so fixated on links, why not remove the one to Chester: A Virtual Stroll while you're at it? CAVS, incidentally, is not only one of the best sites for Chester history, it's about to be taken down forever due to lack of funding. Purpleprose 19:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

And therein lies the issue, I'm afraid, as I see it. The reason we don't like to cite or EL from open wikis is that anybody could write anything - even a false history of the place, so it wouldn't be correct to use that. If the writers on the Wiki cite their sources, then we could cite those same sources in the WP article, right? Either way we wouldn't need a link to the Wiki. The argument that having the link to WP prevents people from finding doesn't hold water, either - WP is not a place to publicise other sites. The fact that it is a fledgling Wiki and has great promise is a good sign for a future EL - if that Wiki becomes a reliable complete source of information. But for right now, given what I have seen, it should not be used. Thanks. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Since this is a small wiki than can be quickly scanned, I did so, and I find that the content looks useful but there are few or no sources. I suggest making this proposal again if, at a future time, reliable sources are provided for most of the information. For now, we should not link to it, except possibly on a one-time basis from a single article like Chester. I agree with User:Dystopos it should never be cited as a reference for factual information. EdJohnston 21:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok - Thanks for all the comments. I've also got a new view from a fellow Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Cheshire members. In the light of this, I've included the link in the Chester article on a "one-time basis". This can be reviewed at regular times in the future if required. I've also invited the identified deficiencies in the Chester Castle article on here to be updated, in wikipedia style with proper referencing, by the people who feel it is deficient.  DDStretch  (talk) 11:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Exception for photographer credit

If a professional photographer releases a picture under an appropriate license and someone uploads it, I think it's reasonable for the image description page (i.e. not articles where the image appears, but the image itself) to provide a link to the photographer's website. Does this sound fair? I'm pretty sure we do it all the time already, as it's usually required for copyright reasons. Kla'quot 16:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely — this guideline applies only to articles. By the same token, it's fine to link to your personal webpage on your userpage. Λυδαcιτγ 18:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Linking to sites that list illegal files

Please see discussion on Misplaced Pages talk:Copyright#Linking to sites that list illegal files. --GunnarRene 18:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Outside opinion wanted on external links

Editor Biographyfan has added quite a few links to various pages, to a website called ourstory. I removed these because of the seemingly spammy nature of the mass linking, but he is insisting that they are useful information not contained in the article and has added one back to Melinda Gates. I'd appreciate outside opinion on links to this site. Thanks. --Minderbinder 00:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The sites are biographies generated on a graphical timeline, provided by service called OurStory.com. The timeline's are collectively maintained, but monitored by the user who started them. I didn't post that many links, and I only posted links to biographies that either I started, or am participating in creating. They are not complete works, but ongoing projects. I added my link back to Melinda Gates, because there is not much info in that entry. But, some of my other biography timeline projects are more filled out, and I hope to contribute them to the associated entries. My whole response to Minderbinder is below (he left out some of the parts of my intent and reasoning, so I am including it). I will be offline from here on out for the weekend, so if you need more info, I will respond on Monday.

My previous Reply to Minderbinder:

I am new to posting on wikipedia, and you recently deleted all of my links that I have added. I have read the links you posted in my talk section, and appreciate your concern and commitment to keeping the external links on wikipedia relevant and non-commercial. I support you in that effort.

However, you mistakely assumed I am associated commericially with OurStory, which I am not. Additionally, none of the links I posted attempt to earn me any money. The timelines I manage are freely open to the public to browse and reference.

I am a biographer by hobby, and am using the OurStory service beacuse I like the timeline they provide. It is a service that I couldn't find else where on the web, and as a history buff and biographer, I think it is valuable. I run a number of profiles on their service, which are told collaboratively with other people on the site, and I particpate in other people's biographical projects.

I do respect the fact that external links should provide information that positively adds to the discussion, or provides valuable information that is not already in the entry. And I understand that in some cases the information on my timeline projects does this and sometimes it does not. So, in respecting this, I will only add my links back to entries where I think my timeline provides valuable (or missing) information on that subject, for the wikipedia user. You can see my comments on those individual discussion pages.

But, as a final thought, I hope that you can appreciate that, in and of itself, a biographical (graphical) timeline is a useful external reference tool. It is something I have been looking for for a long time. For example, when I created my biography on Barack Obama, in my research I could not find a biographical web source that provided dates for important events that make up his life (including the wikipedia entry, offical Illinois sentate, or US Sentate biographies, or even his current campaign page). There was nowhere I could go to get a sense of the major events in his life, without reading 3 pages of text. So, in a case like that, I think the timeline is an external reference that is contributing to the entry.

If you think it is best, I can alter the way I leave links, so that it does not say Our Story in it. I just followed the example that is widely used on wikipedia for external links to IMDB.

If you would like to further the general discussion, please post on my Talk page again. And, please engage me on the discussion page for the individual entries where I am adding the links back. If you plan on re-deleting them, please review the timeline first, and provide a reason why you feel it is not worthy of being listed.

Biographyfan 00:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

These timelines are verifiable, and I have seen people using Misplaced Pages as a source for the timelines. I do not see why not to allow linking, at the discretion of involved editors, if the timelines of these people are accurate and do not include material that may be objectionable as per WP:BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The site is effectively an open wiki (i.e. anyone can edit) so we ought to be more careful than we might with a time line published by, say, the History department at Cambridge University or some other site with a well known reputation for rigor. But that isn't to say the site should never be linked. However, it also seems to be the case that Biographyfan is involved with creating the content on the time line articles s/he is linking to and as such s/he should suggest the links on the talk page rather than placing the links directly on the article page. Since Biography fan doesn't appear to have made any edits to Misplaced Pages that are not connected to promoting these external links this appears to fit more clearly under the SPAM issue than external links. I support Minderbinder's reversion of the edits. -- Siobhan Hansa 02:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

If there are COI issues the simple thing is to post a link to the site on the article talk pages for the article regulars to decide. If you go on a spree of adding links to a site you are associated with then it does look like spamming and you are very likely to be reverted. --Spartaz 16:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like self-promotion to me, they shouldn't be there... we can't link to every wiki that shows up and wants free publicity, and the fact that it's a wiki means it's going to be less valuable/reliable than other sources. They should all be removed as clear spam. DreamGuy 21:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the entry for Melinda Gates. It seemed to me that the OurStory link added little or nothing to the article, because the OurStory interface was so confusing. In any case it is a conflict of interest to add links to a site you are associated with to an article. I suggest that Template:OurStory should be nominated for deletion. If the user keeps re-adding this link, without any Talk page consensus, I suggest that OurStory might be added to the m:Spam blacklist. EdJohnston 22:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to consider this, and provide feedback. I saw the note on my talk page, and I will make sure that I post my links to the talk page for an entry, and not just add them. Like I readily admitted, in some cases the content on some of the timelines are comprehensive and useful, and sometimes they are not yet filled out. I will no longer "SPAM" links on the articles, but, if I feel like a graphical timeline would enhance the entry I will, as you suggested, add it for discussion on the article's talk page. I do want to make it clear I am not the author of the timelines. Some of them I monitor, and some of them I am the author of only a few entires on the timeline. Nevertheless, I understand that this could be considered a COI. Also, not all entries on OurStory are user generated wiki style biographies. The ones I happen to be involved with are. But, there are other people on the site writing as primary sources on various historical topics, or personal experiences. My actions shouldn't prevent their contributions from being considered a viable reference for an article. Thanks. Biographyfan 21:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there a specific process to get independent review for links?

I am wondering if there is any formal process for calling in outside link reviewers (i.e., neutral parties) to get independent examination of links to determine if those links comply with the policies guidelines for WP:EL? I see this as a specialized type of peer review. We have a League of Copyeditors, but is there a League of Link Reviewers, or do we just post individual requests to look at pages here? In some articles there is bickering about whether a link should stay in or go. Calling in a neutral specialist just to look at compliance with policy guideline issues is what I am asking about. Buddhipriya 20:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL is not policy. Please be sure you understand that a guideline is something different. (In particular, as I see it, only policy could overrule a consensus of the article's regular editors). Notinasnaid 20:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification of terms. Do you know if there a process for getting reviews against the guidelines, or do we just post requests here? Buddhipriya 20:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Since external links are usually more of a content issue, as opposed to an enforcement of official policy, it can be a little tricky to get truly neutral feedback.

One of the goals of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject External links was to provide a neutral forum to review external links, but it never really got going for some reason. The members of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam, including myself, do some of this, but their primary efforts are geared toward stopping major, commercial link spammers.

Many times, a posting here will get some good feedback, and, if the article falls under the umbrella of an active, subject-specific WikiProject, such as Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Hinduism, you may want to try their talk page as well. As a last resort, major disputes over links are usually taken to WP:RFC#Request comment on articles. Hope this helps. -- Satori Son 20:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The closest thing to a process is to post the question right here, or at WT:WPSPAM. If you want to add a link to a page that is watched by some project, you could ask your question in that project's Talk page. What I have often heard in the past is that the consensus of the editors working on a particular article's Talk page should be respected. Your query about a 'neutral specialist' sounds like a concept that doesn't exist on Misplaced Pages. I've seen some disputes where a link clearly violated WP:EL but the editor persisted in adding it. Unfortunately that will turn into a user conduct RFC before you can get to a widely-supported verdict. There is always the m:Spam blacklist for difficult cases, and don't forget third opinion which is a very low-weight process. EdJohnston 20:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT and WP:NPOV are policies. Things also change. In the recent past wasn't WP:EL policy? (Requestion 05:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC))

See also Misplaced Pages:Third opinion. ∴ here…♠ 07:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Guideline for other wiki links

See Misplaced Pages:Linking to other wikis for this proposal, which is currently in a development phase. LukeSurl 11:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The Disputed Open Directory Project section

Since we now have a disputed tag on the section, probably best to actually start the discussion again, rather than just referring to all the old ones.

As I understand it, the motivation for doing something like this is a combination of the official policy of WP:NOT#LINK and the desire to provide readers with further reading about the articles. WP:EL says that Some external links are welcome,... but it is not Misplaced Pages's purpose to include a comprehensive list of external links related to each topic.. So we end up with a dilemma which has been seen on many WP pages - links get added and added until it gets too much, someone removes them, there is an outcry and sometimes a long and heated debate. The fact is that wince WP is not a directory, we can not list EVERY site that may just be useful, and thus it becomes a subjective judgement, and subject to a lot of argument.

So the idea was to find a directory that COULD be linked to *as an exception to the rule* so that readers of the article could have a place to go to find many, many more links than Misplaced Pages would ever have in its article. That way we satisfy the needs of the users, and hopefully keep debate down to a minimum.

So far, so good (hopefully). The big question is what should be linked to? Obviously it has to be a directory that has categories that could correspond to WP pages, otherwise there isn't any sort of correlation between them. Hopefully it is a directory which comes as close as possible to mirroring WP's philosophies - you can't pay for inclusion, limited or no ads, etc. The Open Directory Project (or DMOZ as it seems to be known by others) seemed at the time of the previous discussions were had, to be the best one out there that fulfilled the most of those requirements. It's far from perfect, and has a lot of flaws, but at the time there was nothing better.

So, as I see it, this boils down to two questions:
1. Should we use the approach of linking to an external directory in order to direct users to further material on a topic? If not, how are we going to combat the wave of useful sites that feel they just HAVE to be added to the EL section of the articles? This is non-trivial, in my experience.
2. If we do decided to continue adding a link to a directory, then is there one out there that is better than DMOZ, in terms of the sort of characteristics that matter to WP. (I certainly understand that some of you do not like the ODP, but if we are going to link, then we need something better than the ODP to link to). If Misplaced Pages had a directory sister project that was extensive, then that would resolve the issues of the directory having the same standards and control as WP. If they don't have one that is that extensive, then none will be 100% according to the WP philosophies and a compromise must be found.

Hopefully this will help structure the discussion somewhat. In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I am am ODP editor. I have tried to state the case here as neutrally as I could, though. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 17:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Let me dispel some myths. There is a misguided perception that "linking is good, this is the WWW after all'. Not so: External links in an encyclopedic article are useful only when these links are of good quality, do not contain objectionable material that otherwise would not be added to the article, do not violate WP:V, etc. The main principle is "EL section is not the dumping ground for material that could not make it to the article due to violation of our content policies." This is a guideline, and guidelines cannot trump policies; rather, guidelines are there to assist editors with understanding and applying policy. Inviting a loophole and making the suggestion that DMOZ (or any other web directory for that matter) is a good thing, is in contradiction with the wording on this guideline ("links to be avoided" section). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Characterizing the opinions of others as "myths" and "misguided perceptions" does not seem particularly helpful to this debate. I would prefer to discuss specifics. For example, which of the 13 items listed under "Links normally to be avoided" (emphasis mine) do you think the Open Directory Project violates? Also, which official policy, as opposed to guideline, do you think it violates? Honestly, I'm not really sure I understand your objections. Thanks, Satori Son 18:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Adding news articles to external links

User:EnviroGranny added some news articles (from yahoo, fox news, etc) to several wikipedia articles , without actually adding any text new to the article. I don't think we should be doing this. It just leads to a long list of external links. Instead, they should be added to the talk page or not added at all, if it doesn't tell the reader anything new. If they are used as references, it should be placed inline with the text. I don't know what the guideline says of this. Any comments? Pizzachicken 17:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You got it right: If these are possible sources for an article, add them as sources. I would suggest you move these links to talk, and invite editors to evaluate them and augment the article's content based on these sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

... Pizzachicken 18:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

1. crime
2. education
3. religion
4. war