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Revision as of 22:03, 24 April 2007

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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Higher education Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Higher education, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of higher education, universities, and colleges on Misplaced Pages. Please visit the project page to join the discussion, and see the project's article guideline for useful advice.Higher educationWikipedia:WikiProject Higher educationTemplate:WikiProject Higher educationHigher education ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Archives

/Archive 1 /Archive 2

Request for Comments

I've listed this page on WP:WQA and WP:RFC. Please keep comments here short, civil, and constructive! Vagary 00:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment. The article shows a variety of non-neutral viewpoints and most of the content is unsourced. The bigger problem is on this talk page. It seems that many of the editors posting here so far have not learned how to format their comments or sign their posts. When I first arrived I found that many sections were in large text boxes with words too wide for the screen because the lines were started with blank space, like this:

This is how it looks when a line starts with a blank space.  If it's a paragraph it spills over the edge of the page.

That made the page almost unreadable, so I removed many of those extra spaces and now the text is readable. But the discussions are still hard to follow. It seems like everyone is talking and no-one is listening.

I recommend avoiding essay-like discussions on the talk page. If you see a problem with the article, go ahead and make the edit. Find reliable references and include them with your edits. For controversial edits, or edits that someone else reverts, discuss calmly on the talk page. Focus on the content and the references, not the other editors.

I suggest reviewing some of these important guidelines:

• Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith
• Misplaced Pages:Be bold in updating pages
• Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view
• Misplaced Pages:Consensus
• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability

I hope you find this comment helpful. --Parzival418 03:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment. In light of the issues with many comments on this Talk page, I would like to propose archiving it, so that this space can be used to discuss edits explicitly. Vagary 08:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome - glad I could help out a bit. I think archiving is a good idea, to make a new start. You can find instructions for doing the archiving here: Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page. I recommend retaining the 'talkpage' template at the top of the page that shows instructions for using the page. By the way, I don't know if you saw it yet, -- there is another response from your noticeboard postings a couple sections below this one that has some additional supportive comments. Good luck with improving the article! --Parzival418 09:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank You All!

Thank you everyone who has commented here and edited the article! It's already looking so much better than I could have hoped to do myself. Please accept my apologies for being melodramatic when asking for help. :) Vagary 08:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV and Commenting

Codeplowed has expressed his ideas, you are commanding this user/editor to do what you think is right and this user is doing what he or she thinks is right.

I don't think is smart that vagary tell to Codeplowed or any of us in here what to do, how to write and how to present an argument, you can suggest or better do it and show us by example, I do no read in here either. I have only observed impositions, demands and ownership, probably these people are bringing the corporate aptitude in here, I do not think you will win this time and not in here. I would ask you to behave.

Because the nature of any discussion is precisely to find multiple points of view, Be BOLD and edit and present the sources that you think are missing but do not called harassment!, to what, I think, based on my reading, it is a very crucial and insightful contribution from Codeplowed, I know more people will come to this page and will be gain consensus.

I guess those people will see this issues with their own "eyes" and so they will write about it or you too can do this, but please leave the comments of CodePlowed of any other user in Misplaced Pages Talk pages "as is", I think you can add to it or better be contrapuntal about it. Codeplowed has done with exactly that with yours so why you do not try it for once, we can see and evaluate your history much better in this way.

This lead me to user:vagary's contribs and the user who appear to sign as "Otterzero" or with the IP address 208.0.29.250, who claim to be an employee and a student of this institution in question, although, I have visited the link that http://ihatedevryforum.com and I found terrible information in there about DeVry, and other numerous blogs and reports as well, that seem worth to report and describe in context in this encyclopedia, like it or in some what similar as it has been articulated by Codeplowed.

Now lastly, and really troublesome and with a closer inspection of the historical "inputs" on record, I analyzed that the so-self-called Devry student/employee has tried to persuade, privately communicate by extending an IM invitation and then even intimidate and discourage Codeplowed from contributing in the way that he/she thinks it fits the subject and the content, this IP-user has made some assumptions and even has told Codeplowed how and what to do. This is an unacceptable behavior, you present your ideas, you do not, do not imposed your ideas, Do your teachers teach that in DeVry?.

Whomever is using this IP address seem obvious that he/she is trying to manipulate and affirm things in a way that are not other way than that the ways that characterized masqueraded vandals, especially, when they do not get what they want. The fact that this 208... or otterzero or whatever does not sign properly their contribs and the way he is trying to achieve his/her ways denoted the lack of respect, that actually this user has and exhibits, for The WikiMedia as a Whole and for anybody who contribute in here. Now, Codeplowed has sign all his comments and has denounced those who repeatedly has violated the verifiability and although has rectified his contribs, in a reasonably matter and presenting links and information that I and others have verified.

Vagary, which by the way is an insulting username with an obvious hidden agenda, and others like him are seemed to be writing as defending the indefensible, Also the Cuomo investigation is being in process in New York about the subjects that Codeplowed has indicated are not yet including the name of DeVry, at least on the articles that I had read, and ABET has a WikiPage that indicates some criticisms about the way they have to accredit organizations; this is all very important because of those same reasons that have been landscaped by Codeploewed and everyone should have the freedom to be reading them, as has pointing out by many in others sites over the Internet, I have happen to find, for instance, read

I apologize if you felt intimidated by my request to contact you via email or IM -- I was trying to follow the Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes guidelines found at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes. I can see how my posting semi-anonymously may have seemed insincere, so I have created an account for future editing. As per the guidelines on Negotiation at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Negotiation, I would like both of our points of view (and those of anyone else who wishes to edit the article) to be part of this article. As it says on that page, "Objective criteria such as accuracy, reliability, and fair representation of all significant points of view can be used as participants in a dispute to work toward solutions." My only concern is keeping focused on those objective criteria in editing this, or any other, article. 208.0.29.250 13:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)OtterZero

Please assume good faith. Until today, after I said there was nothing wrong with the IP address editing the article as long as he/she followed the guidelines at WP:COI. And, quite frankly, they have every right to speak on the talk page. While this University may have had its bad points (I'm sure every University has them), is it neutral to only speak of it? Is it right for this user to harass other users because they are part of the institution?

Regarding that link: It doesn't work for me, but even if it did, I can deduce it is a website against this University. Then ask yourself, can this be used as a neutral source? Yes, it can, if that source has its own references. Otherwise, it cannot be considered reliable.

One thing I have noticed is that this article is unbalanced. It feels like an attack page to me. Everyone is welcome to edit this article, but everyone must assume good faith, stay civil and keep calm. x42bn6 Talk 16:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Okay, as a completely uninvolved editor, I've got a few things I'd like to say here.

First, I agree that the article is a hash. It's got definite problems right now, and could do with a complete rewrite to make it neutral and encyclopedic. The comments above that link to the key guidelines that apply to this article are very important, as those are what the editors working on this article need to consider.

More importantly, however, editors need to remember that they should comment on content, not contributors. Many of the comments above have been verging on personal attacks, which are not acceptable. Please assume good faith in your dealings with one another and with the article, and things will go just fine. The editors working on this article are not vandals. Please stop making such accusations.

The best way to move forward is to discuss POLITELY the problems with the article and the changes that must be made to meet the guidelines. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a battleground. I'm more than happy to try and help with the rebuild, as long as editors assume good faith with everyone else. Cheers. Tony Fox (arf!) 05:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Edits to remove non-NPOV stuff and advertising

Thanks to all who offered advice on this article to this Misplaced Pages newbie. The advice I got can be summed up as "stop kvetching on the talk page, create an account, and start editing!" so I'm doing so. Since there have been a lot of discussions about this page, I wanted to give a brief summary of my edits.

First I removed the lingering advertising-sounding parts of the article. These include the link to an article about DeVry grads and the praise for the library system.

Second, I removed some of the vague language on the other side of the NPOV spectrum -- things about how DeVry "apparently" has accreditation, or the misinformation about the FAFSA code. News blog entries about lawsuits from 1999 didn't seem particularly noteworthy, but if someone could research these cases and post their outcomes, that would be a good replacement.

Third, I removed things that really just seemed out of place. These include the headers with no content and the comments about DeVry being a lucrative business for investors. I'm not sure if that was intended as advertising cruft or as genuine observation, but either way it's out of place (and either uncited or original research, or both.)

I didn't add anything, just removed and re-arranged things, so please take a look at my edits and let me know if you think I went too far in trying to get this article back to being encyclopedic and NPOV. Thanks! OtterZero 12:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)OtterZero

Poor reversion

All of the edits that I made a few minutes ago have been reverted, ignoring my comments as well as breaking the layout marks on the page. What do I do at this point? Should I request moderation? I'm trying to compromise, per the guidelines of Misplaced Pages, and it's not working. OtterZero 13:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)OtterZero

Request for comments

I don't want to get in an editing/reverting war over this article. However, I would like it if anyone could review the changes I made this morning (via the "history" tab, since that's the only place they exist anymore) and comment on them here on the Talk page.

I feel as though the outright and almost immediate reversion of all of my changes, without so much as a Talk page note, were invalidating my contribution to the article. I feel, well, silenced. Bullied, perhaps. I question whether I will be able to make any changes to this article at all without immediate reversion, and that's not a good feeling. OtterZero 14:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)OtterZero

Quick cleanup

I've done a quick wikification and cleanup of the article and its various issues such as duplicated paragraphs, lack of paragraphing and some NPOV issues: You can see what I've done here. Comments are welcome. x42bn6 Talk 16:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it looks much better! It's a good compromise between the various edits that myself and other users have made recently. I'm still concerned about this section though: "Private educational institutions, as DeVry Inc, appear to be guiding prospective students to apply for student loans that are rendered by private lenders or to increase their family contributions to pay for the higher cost of their tuition. These business practices are being investigated by the respective authorities at the present moment." I feel as though it's deceptive -- a connection is being drawn to DeVry that isn't present in the cited sources. Also, the dates for the reference links are gone, making it sound like the lawsuit and Canadian protest are recent, when in fact the sites show that they took place in 1996 and 2000. Should the dates be noted next to the links? OtterZero 17:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)OtterZero

I agree it's looking far better, but there is a bit of a concern with the references as noted above. The press release from AG Andrew Cuomo's office doesn't mention DeVry, and doesn't single out private institutions at all - it's a blanket comment, and may not be the best for that particular spot. The second one regarding the class action lawsuit seems fine, though. I'd agree that the dates for the lawsuit and protest might best be mentioned in the article. Also, does it really need that huge list of campuses? It might be better to mention the states and provinces in which it operates as part of the prose. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

suggestions

It's good to see the significant improvements on this page, congratulations on getting a positive editing process going.

My suggestion is that now that the page looks more calm and less negative, it might be a good idea to add a section of the page for Criticisms of the company and/or its methods. I have no knowledge about this topic at all, I'm only making this suggestion because previously there was a lot of that in the article, but it was mixed in with the other information.

I wonder if you don't provide a crticisms section, then it may be that the complaints begin to be mixed into the general text again. I believe there have been complaints about the company, so it seems appropriate to provide a place for them to bve disucssed (with references of course). That would also help to keep the NPOV approach good and solid.

As a lesser issue, just cosmetic, I agree with the comment above that the list of campuses is a bit much, though it could be useful for someone wanting to find a campus in their city. Maybe it would be good to move that section to the bottom of the article (just above the references section). There are ways the list could be made visually smaller too,or made into table format, though I'm not a Wikimarkup expert so I have no suggestions on how to do that. As it is now though, it interrupts the article; many people might stop reading at that point because it seems like something that would come at the end of the text. --Parzival418 19:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The reason a lot of criticism was apparent was because two (large) paragraphs were duplicated.  :-/ But I agree, this subject appears to have negative points - and there are references for it - in fact, I think there is the problem that there are no "positive" references and almost no neutral ones. x42bn6 Talk 20:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with your comments. I thought a separate section for that would be good to clarify the organization of the article. But clearly, there are holes in the information that will need to be filled in over time.

Thanks for your help with this article. --Parzival418 20:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Good-bye for now

I came to this page from the Wikiquette alert posting. I'm pleased to see the positive responses to the various comments. I'm taking this page off my way-over-full watchlist, so I won't see replies entered here. If you need my attention, you're welcome to leave a message on my talk page. Good luck with the article! --Parzival418 20:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk Page Formatting

Please leave the talk header at the top: we've had a lot of irregular comments in the past. I'd like to move that the talk page be archived above this point - any objections? Vagary 18:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I support your suggestion to archive the previous discussions on the talk page. They will thus be preserved for anyone who wants to review them, but not overwhelm anyone looking for current discussions on this article. OtterZero 23:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for archiving, Parzival418! Vagary 07:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Alberta Class Action

I just checked both SEC reports and neither mentions any controversy in Alberta, so I moved the citations. The thing is, class action lawsuits were basically not legal in Alberta until 2001, after DeVry could grant degrees, so hopefully a good reference will clear up exactly what happened, as well. Vagary 18:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps not but I was looking for sources - awfully hard to find. This (page 21) has a lot of information about various lawsuits - all thrown out but some appealed - and I think we may as well condense the information, or put it into a list. x42bn6 Talk 19:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I went through all the Hansard hits for "devry" and added everything I found. There's nothing relevant in the judgements of the Alberta courts (although of course it could have been settled). Can subscribers to the Calgary Herald or Edmonton Journal search through their full archives? I think that's the only way we're going to find anything... Vagary 02:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

On Misplaced Pages Page Discussions

Fine, your work for DeVry, you are a dear friend of one who works for DeVry, what about the thousands of families that have been in one way or other victimized by DeVry? Who cares you thought that you can just come in here and make a cheap add into Google, this definitely is not the place. This page have been vandalized by hidden its contents in an archive file without getting consensus of any of the participants and still is not intact as it was. Yes Alberta, Alberta, what about California; in January 2002, Royal Gardner, a graduate of one of DeVry University’s Los Angeles-area campuses, filed a class-action complaint against DeVry Inc. and DeVry University, Inc. in the Superior Court of the State of California, County of Los Angeles, on behalf of all students enrolled in the post-baccalaureate degree program in Information Technology. Why do not read? "The total accrual for the resolution of all pending legal claims and for final payment on claims previously resolved was approximately $1.6 million at the end of fiscal 2006." Yes, DeVry Inc. fight against the unions and the right of its employees to have a more security at their jobs, yes DeVry University fight squarely against its professors, contract then at will and do whatever it wants with them, and do yes what is Academic Freedom or privacy for DeVry Inc.

DeVry University will continue fighting until the evidence preponderance's weight will become so heavy in the mind of the authorities and so far from reasonable doubt that you are the ones that will end without jobs and because you have not skills then you will be unable to find another job and soon then you will find out what DeVry Inc. will be able to do for you and your family members (holding all that personal information on you).

The sad thing is that you are aiding the wrong people perhaps for a good cause. DeVry Inc. want to fight, as the slavery institutions did back centuries ago, because of greedy since there were many ways to make money in those days as it is nowadays; think about it! and look at your hands and look why your are writing and encyclopedic history and what kind of effects is having and will have in future generations and the generations that are looking for decent and neutral information.

Unfortunately, I do not have evidence of the contrary about DeVry Inc. The evidence that we have received is strong and there is plenty of it and it comes from many sources, evenly too "fresh" that somehow needs to be compiled adequately to be cited as a source in here or in anyplace. But we are working to present DeVry Inc. "As is" No more, but not less either, As is my friend, It is and entry that will portrait DeVry and its "ring" of associate, how it is called? its modus operandi.

Finally, it seems that a user is changing the source documentation with the purpose to obscure the veracity or the location of the reports from the general public. This is called vandalizing, you know? why you going and help Capella University and start to defend the indefensible as well in there or working in the genocide page and argue that the evidence is poor or seem to be misplaced just careful, there are many of us that will immediately jump to show that effectively there is a lot of evidence on this issue. -Veritas Longa 22:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Source. Give us sources. And Misplaced Pages is not for your own personal battleground nor your own personal ideology on this article. Misplaced Pages is here to give readers a balanced view of the University, and not every single lawsuit thrown at it. Which is why I split the controversy into a new section. The lead section is supposed to summarise the article, and this is supposed to be the most neutral because this is what is mostly read.

Does it matter that this University receives lots of criticism? At the end of the day, it is still a University, people still go there to learn and they graduate with their qualifications. Whether they agree with the course or not is irrelevant. Fine, this University has had lawsuits filed against it - we have mentioned this in the article - but if it was not doing an ounce of good, people would not go there.

And please stop removing the talk page banner. This page might get a lot of traffic one day and it serves no purpose not to remove it at the moment. x42bn6 Talk 23:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Archiving is not vandalism:"This page have been vandalized by hidden its contents in an archive file without getting consensus of any of the participants and still is not intact as it was." - Archiving of talk pages is a routine maintenance procedure. I created /Archive 2 of this article. All of the information is still available with a single click, in the "Archives" box near the top of this page. There was a technical problem when another editor first tried the archiving process, that resulted in /Archive 1 being incomplete. So I corrected this with the second archive and added a clear note at the top of the archive to explain why there is some duplication between the two. Archive 2 is complete, with all text prior to the first entry on this talk page. To make absolutely sure I did not lose any text at all, I did not make any changes to Archive 1. I left it as is, in case there may have been a comment there that was previously removed from the main page.

Now that this has been corrected, the archive pages must not be edited. If you want to comment about anything stated on an archived page, you can comment on the main talk page and link to the archive, or copy the text you want to quote. But do not change the archives.

Nothing is hidden or taken away, all of the discussions on this article are still easily available to all. --Parzival418 20:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk banner removal?

Why does someone keep removing the talk banner at the top of this page? Valid reasons were presented for adding it to the top of the page, but no valid ones presented for removing it. OtterZero 23:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Appears to be a revert plus the section above. x42bn6 Talk 23:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

University of Phoenix

I just realized that the University of Phoenix is the most similar institution, so I added a See Also link. Look at that article for inspiration. Vagary 02:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It sounds to me like perhaps these institutions may belong (and already are) in some of the same categories but I'm not seeing a direct enough reason to add UofP to the "See also" section. Exactly why would the UofP be in this article's "See also" section? --ElKevbo 18:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

They're often mentioned in the same breath in Canada (probably because they're the only two American private colleges big enough to move into the market). But I'm not wedded to the See Also reference, so feel free to remove it. Vagary 20:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk:DeVry University

(Difference between revisions) Main Page | Recent changes | Log out |

Early registration for Wikimania 2007 is open. The Call for Participation is open until April 30. Printable version | Disclaimers | Privacy policy | Current revision | You have new messages (last change). Revision as of 18:10, 24 April 2007 (edit) X42bn6 (Talk | contribs) (→DeVry Behavior is on record in this Misplaced Pages - Do NOT harass other users on Misplaced Pages. If you want to bring up an issue, go to WP:AN/I.) ← Older edit Revision as of 18:15, 24 April 2007 (edit) (undo) X42bn6 (Talk | contribs) (→Exposing and sharing yes but Imposing Never - Remove personal attack) Newer edit → Line 154: Line 154: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Codeplowed (talk • contribs)

• Unassessed Higher education articles
• WikiProject Higher education articles