Talk:George Allen (American politician): Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 04:12, 1 May 2006 editElembis (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,883 edits →Article name change: Agreed with recommendations to move to "George Allen".← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 19:31, 11 November 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk \| contribs)Bots8,076,616 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 7 WikiProject templates. (Fix Category:Pages with redundant living parameter)Tag: Talk banner shell conversion
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	I can't believe there is no talk page for this article. For someone that people think will be the next Republican presidential candidate, there's not much here. I'll go out on a limb and make a prediction here (yes I know WP is ] a crystal ball): Allen-Rice would be a winning ticket for the right, even if HRC does run. Just thought I'd go on record so when it happens, I can have bragging rights. --] <sup><font color="#3D9140">]</font></sup> 21:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
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			== Eliminate the 'Controversies' section ==
	== No military, no presidency ==

			Now that the election is over, I'm hoping I can raise what I believe is a legitimate concern without the typical politicking debates. I don't believe any politician's page should have a separate controversies section. This used to be a common practice, but was stopped on most pages as it is a clear violation of ]. There were wiki projects to do this for presidential candidates, but I guess statewide official pages were ignored. For example, Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee had long controversy sections that were eliminated. Please keep in mind that I am absolutely '''''not''''' suggesting to remove something potentially negative, but rather keep it all in a chronological and neutral context rather than in a seperate controversy section. Again, this is a common wiki practice - prior to running for president, Obama, Clinton, Biden, Giuliani, McCain, Fred Thompson, Chris Dodd and many others had controversy sections. ] (]) 04:44, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
	With the war on terror, Americans will want a strong leader with a military background. When it comes time to pull the lever, Hillary, her lack of international and military experience will make her too weak for voters. George Allen is in the same boat. Gilluiani's pro-choice stance is too liberal for the GOP and the nation is not ready (I am) for a female, black president, with no prior service record (maybe in peace time). That leaves a possible McCain / Kerry show down in 2008 with McCain winning easily.
			:This has apparently been done and I can see other discussions about removing negative content but I wanted to point out that sanitizing a page to have no content that could be considered negative isn't the same as being neutral. I came to this page because I read elsewhere that events on the campaign trail led to George Allen effectively disappearing from politics and I wanted to know more. Seems like a major item in his biography right? The article mentions that he retired after a "controversial" campaign but then the subject is totally dropped. Are we going to remove mentions of Monica Lewinski from Clinton's ariticle? Are we going to remove mentions of Flint from Snyder's? <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 02:03, 7 February 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			== External links modified ==
	:McCain has done almost everything possible to piss-off the Republican base. He can't get nominated unless he goes ahead and joins the Democrats. All George Allen needs to do is to satisfy the Republican base with his words '''and''' actions, and he's a shoo-in to be the next president.
	--] 13:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	::You are correct, McCain will never get the Republican nomination. And I think the United States ''is'' ready for a female President, even a Black one. The righties already love her, and she would almost for sure pull votes from the Dems solid base of African-Americans and women. And I doubt Kerry will get the Democratic nomination after the beating he (more specifically, his campaign) took last time. Okay... no more of this talk, back to writing articles. --] <sup><font color="#3D9140">]</font></sup> 15:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

			I have just modified {{plural:1\|one external link\|1 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:::Folks, this page isn't to discuss George Allen, it's to discuss the article about him. I agree with Lord Voldemort's comment: "no more of this talk". For general political conversations, please check out ] or ] (those actual websites, not our articles about them). ] 16:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071001002838/http://sec.edgar-online.com/1998/10/01/08/0000910680-98-000357/Section9.asp to http://sec.edgar-online.com/1998/10/01/08/0000910680-98-000357/Section9.asp

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).
	== this guy is becoming important ==

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	So the fact that he's divorced should be mentioned

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 14:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
	--grazon 01:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	:I added it, but I haven't found the name of his first wife, the date of the marriage, the date of the divorce, or whether there were any children. All I can find is that ''USA Today'' says the divorce occurred "in the early 1980s". We should try to get the full information. ] 03:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	== this should help ==

			I have just modified 6 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	http://www.nndb.com/people/185/000032089/
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			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060904212824/http://www.advocacy.ucla.edu/news/051215_fed_innovation.html to http://www.advocacy.ucla.edu/news/051215_fed_innovation.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051109034803/http://www.moore-info.com:80/signedsealed....htm to http://www.moore-info.com/signedsealed....htm
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060604013834/http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/05/watch_your_verb.html to http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/05/watch_your_verb.html
			*Added {{tlx\|dead link}} tag to http://www.dailymail.com/ap/ApLife/201109273276
			*Added {{tlx\|dead link}} tag to http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/virginia-politics/2012/nov/07/kaine-says-voters-demand-common-ground-ar-2343801/

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	--grazon 03:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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	== Quotations ==

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 17:09, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
	There is no need for a quotes section in this article. The one quote provided is neither notable nor truly NPOV. What is the point of the quote? To show he swears? To show he cares about money for Virginia? I just don't get it. Wikiquotes is to be used for random direct quotations. Might I suggest you add this there. --] <sup><font color="#3D9140">]</font></sup> 16:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	== did he call the naacp an extermist group+displayed a Confederate flag+a noose at his home? ==

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000192.htm

			I have just modified 4 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/11/17/robb/print.html
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp960516/05160010.htm
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.moore-info.com/signedsealed....htm
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131104055413/https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2012/A2E23EAB-7EA6-40E2-AF41-3CE22C787EA4/Official/5_s.shtml to https://www.voterinfo.sbe.virginia.gov/election/DATA/2012/A2E23EAB-7EA6-40E2-AF41-3CE22C787EA4/Official/5_s.shtml

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	Who cares if he did? I don't. I think the NAACP is an extremist group. He's a former governor of the capital state of the Confederacy. Why shouldn't he have a confederate flag? A noose? Funny sense of humor I think.

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	Give me something substantive, like he participated in a lynching and you'll have my attention.
	-dviljoen

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 14:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
	== Conservatives' front-runner ==

			== External links modified ==
	I was surprised, but I learned earlier in the week that according to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll, George Allen is outdoing other conservatives currently in the 2008 race for the GOP nomination. He's at 7%, while Frist is at 6% and Romney is in third. Misplaced Pages, please post this information! -Amit, Feb. 19, 2006

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	== Early Life ==

			I have just modified 6 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	Can we get some more on his early life and what his motivations were for getting into politics? He's going to run for President, so we might as well get to know him a little better. ] 23:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060902055328/http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/collections/stats/valeg/php/election.php to http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/collections/stats/valeg/php/election.php
	*Perhaps information from should be incorporated? - <font color="#013220">]</font>·''<font color="#465945" size="1">]</font>'' 22:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110727130831/http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/PDFs/vafull.pdf. to http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/PDFs/vafull.pdf.
	**I've added some information from the relevant article and also asked permission from TNR to use the high school yearbook photo in this article. - <font color="#013220">]</font>·''<font color="#465945" size="1">]</font>'' 04:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090106110505/http://www.palmettoscoop.com/2008/04/07/allen-abolishing-parole-worked-in-virginia-would-work-in-sc/ to http://www.palmettoscoop.com/2008/04/07/allen-abolishing-parole-worked-in-virginia-would-work-in-sc/
			*Added archive https://archive.is/20040626222047/http://www3.roanoke.com/politics/day619.html to http://www3.roanoke.com/politics/day619.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101005095651/http://www.nano.gov/html/news/releases/PresSignsNanoBill.htm to http://www.nano.gov/html/news/releases/PresSignsNanoBill.htm
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120913043247/http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/10/09/george_allen_is_back_and_touti.html to http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/10/09/george_allen_is_back_and_touti.html

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	:::Did Allen become a fan of "southern" culture or "western"? I don't want to register to read the article, but the talk about Hee Haw and cowboy boots sounds more country/western than just southern. --] 04:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

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	::::The fascination with Confederate flags sounds like being a fan "southern culture" to me. ] 04:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
	::::Plus the whole becoming a UVA good old boy thing. ] 04:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

	::::Also, if you don't want to register to read the article, why on earth are you questioning the paraphrase of the article by somebody who did? If you want to see if the paraphrase is accurate, read the article. If you don't want to read the article, then don't make comments about what you think it probably says. ] 04:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

	:::::That's why I'm asking here, not changing the text. Relax. --] 18:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

	Well, I'd hoped to get permission to use the yearbook photo from TNR, but I was denied permission to use it without the POV caption. Clearly, we can't use the photo with the caption and adhere to ]. It seems they don't want us to use it without the caption, so I won't upload it under a fair use rationale out of respect for their wishes. It's a shame, it's such a nice little picture . . . - <font color="#013220">]</font>·''<font color="#465945" size="1">]</font>'' 17:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

	== Confederate flag ==

	Part of my recent edit regarding Allen's display of the Confederate flag as a teenager, which Allen has acknowledged and confirmed in one respect (the yearbook lapel pin) and has stated is "entirely possible" in another (the car flag, which was confirmed via an eyewitness), keeps getting removed. The information is ] and ]. I would like to know why, exactly, it keeps getting removed. - <font color="#013220">]</font>·''<font color="#465945" size="1">]</font>'' 04:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

	-
	-
	Jerysko,
	The reason it keeps being removed is because you keep re-posting it. This is a cheap political low-blow, the kind of smear jobs that has recently given[REDACTED] such a bad name. http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/28/D8H95FG06.html

	I am just struggling to see how the fact that Allen once took a pic with a Confederate flag lapel pin, could be of any value to intellectual discussion. But I see this post and your determination to post it as the obvios political hatchett job that it is. You obviously have an axe to grind against Allen. There is plenty of negative information on Allen(actually probably more than positive) and I have not attempted to erase it.

	But I find your blatant attempt to incite hatred of the Senator, by trying to play the race card to be nothing short of reprehensible.

	(Also, I may have edited more than three times, but might I remind you that you did the same continually re-posting!) <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) {{{2\|}}}.</small><!-- -->

	::With all due respect, let's ]. I am not attempting a "political hatchet" job in re Allen. I actually know very little about him, or at least I did before I read the New Republic article about him. My intent is merely to present relevant, verifiable, sourced information. The information I presented adheres to all of those criteria, as it is descriptive of Allen's early life (in the "early life" section of the article) and is verifiable via the source cited. It's even been at least partially confirmed ''by Allen's office itself''! (see the article) <br> Finally, yes, I have reverted your deletion of the information 3 times. You've removed it more than three times, as another editor has stepped in to revert your deletion as well, thus you are in violation of the ] that I've already warned you about on your talk page. I will not report your violation as I know you are a new user here, but please keep it in mind in the future. Let's discuss this here, not through a revert war. As it stands now, at least one other editor agrees with me that the information belongs. Let's see what others have to say. - <font color="#013220">]</font>·''<font color="#465945" size="1">]</font>'' 04:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

	Jersyko,
	While you may have a point that may be cited, it does not mean that it is worthy of being posted nor does it mean that it should be posted. I can find plenty of sources that claim that Armstrong never walked on the moon, but rather the whole thing was filmed in a television studio. Therefore, just because one Magazine (especially one that has seen its reputation destroyed as result of teh Stephen Glass scandal) reports something does not mean that it is worthy of posting.

	My objection to this post is that it is intentionally trying to inject racism in to the political debate. I don't see you or anyone else trying to post the fact that Sen. Allen sponsored a bill, formally apologizing to African-Americans for the government's failure to prevent lynchings in the South. Instead, people are trying to find the one piece of evidence that will label him a racist.

	I don't find this to be intellectually honest. If you want to talk about Allen and his record on race. But in the same sentence/paragraph that you talk about Confederate flags please post all of the work he has done to repair race relations in this country. That is if you truly believe in acting "in good faith".
	comment was added by ]

	:The reason that no one is trying to ''post'' the fact about the lynching apology bill is that the bill is already mentioned in the article, and in fact has been since in November 2005. There's no justification for anyone who dislikes Allen to try to censor that information (and I don't think there's been any attempt to censor it). By the same token, there's no justification for anyone who likes Allen to try to censor the information about his pro-Confederate past and his brush with the law arising from his racist vandalism in high school. ]<small> ] ]</small> 06:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

	I give. Mr. Lane has revealed his ideology, and thus proved the point: Misplaced Pages is truly the place for smear politics. You all have taken[REDACTED] and used it to your own ends. You win, I concede, the[REDACTED] universe is obviously not for the likes of me. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) {{{2\|}}}.</small><!-- -->

	::You said, "I can find plenty of sources that claim that Armstrong never walked on the moon, but rather the whole thing was filmed in a television studio." But can you find ] (like a respected newspaper or political journal like TNR) that make that claim? And has Armstrong himself admitted that it was true, like Allen's office confirming the flag lapel pin and saying the car flag was "entirely possible"??? Misplaced Pages is not the place for "smear politics." It is also not the place to carefully choose to include facts that are only praiseworthy of political candidates. The article mentions his use of the confederate flag when he was in high school, but NOWHERE does it say "Allen is a racist." In fact, the article mentions that Allen supported the lynching apology bill last year. The reader is left to form his or her own opinion of Allen; the article is merely presenting the facts from reputable sources. - <font color="#013220">]</font>·''<font color="#465945" size="1">]</font>'' 14:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

	The article in ''The New Republic'' is a major article about Allen in a well-respected (Glass aside) publication. Much of the information in it was apparently confirmed by Allen's office. Personally, I think that more could be said - notably the stuff in his sister's memoirs about him being (essentially) a sadistic bully when they were children might be worth a mention (although I'd prefer to cite directly from the book, and not from Lizza's paraphrase of it). The claims that 71.75.77.228 has made about ''The New Republic'' and comparisons of this article to moon hoax theories are the most serious smears here. These seem to verge on defamation of Ryan Lizza. ] 18:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

	Is 129.137.84.230 a sock puppet for 71.75.77.228? Not very mature. This is clearly relevant information, from a reputable source. One plagarizer (Stephen Glass), caught and fired, does not make an entire news outfit (TNR) forever inaccurate. If 71/75.77.228/129.137.84.230 would like to make a wortwhile NPOV contribution to the entry he/she/they should create a new section on "allegations racial insensitivity" that mentions both the New Republic material, Allen's early voting history on issues such Martin Luther King day, and the more recent voting history on issues such apologizing for lynching. Just removing unpleasant but apparnetly truthful information violates the principles of Misplaced Pages, as well as plain honesty. ] 22:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

	==Article name change==
	This article's name has been changed recently by Calmypal. The first time the reason was: "Consistency with other politician George Wigram Allen" (refering to a 19th century Australian politician). The second time with the reason: "I don't see a compelling reason to keep this at George Allen (politician). People looking for him there will still find him, via a disambiguaton page, which will not be unusual for anyone pare"

	With hundreds of articles linked to this page, and the potential for this article to become quite active in the future, I would like comments on what the proper name should be for this article. Should it remain at George Allen (politician), where is has been for most of its history this year, or at George Felix Allen, the name preferred by Calmypal? Or something else?

	Whatever the choice, it is not so great to make people go through an extra disambiguation page ''if'' he is now the primary person with this name that people will be searching for. So perhaps George Allen should be made a redirect to this article and the disambiguation page put at George Allen (disambiguation). ] ] 23:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
	:I guess I was cut off. The second reason should be followed by, "nthesising it." Anyway, NoSeptember's done a good job summarising the situation and I'll wait for feedback. All I have to add is that I would not have moved it again if someone had reverted me within an hour, even a day, after I first moved it. By Misplaced Pages standards, a week is ages, and I took this as implicit approval. - ] (]) 00:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
	::During a slow period (and pre-midterm elections is a deliberately slow period for potential presidential candidates), a week before being reverted doesn't indicate much of anything :-). ] ] 00:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
	:I think that the ] page should go directly to this article, and a disambiguation notice be placed at the top. Allen's prominence can only grow in the coming years, and even now, he is by far the most prominent of the "George Allens"--] 01:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
	::I concur. ] 01:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
	:::Same here. A disambig link at the top would suffice. - <font color="#013220">]</font>·''<font color="#465945" size="1">]</font>'' 01:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
	::::I agree. This George Allen is the only living one with a Misplaced Pages article, and is surely the most prominent. I recommend that we vote on moving this to "George Allen" and linking to "George Allen (disambiguation)" at the top of the page. — ] 04:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

	] is just bad. He should be at either ] or ] or ], depending on how prominent we find him to be. I'd say that he's prominent enough that ] is probably fine. ] 02:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

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John J. Miller (April 2008). "Liberal Web". National Review.

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Eliminate the 'Controversies' section

Now that the election is over, I'm hoping I can raise what I believe is a legitimate concern without the typical politicking debates. I don't believe any politician's page should have a separate controversies section. This used to be a common practice, but was stopped on most pages as it is a clear violation of WP:NPOV. There were wiki projects to do this for presidential candidates, but I guess statewide official pages were ignored. For example, Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee had long controversy sections that were eliminated. Please keep in mind that I am absolutely not suggesting to remove something potentially negative, but rather keep it all in a chronological and neutral context rather than in a seperate controversy section. Again, this is a common wiki practice - prior to running for president, Obama, Clinton, Biden, Giuliani, McCain, Fred Thompson, Chris Dodd and many others had controversy sections. MavsFan28 (talk) 04:44, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

This has apparently been done and I can see other discussions about removing negative content but I wanted to point out that sanitizing a page to have no content that could be considered negative isn't the same as being neutral. I came to this page because I read elsewhere that events on the campaign trail led to George Allen effectively disappearing from politics and I wanted to know more. Seems like a major item in his biography right? The article mentions that he retired after a "controversial" campaign but then the subject is totally dropped. Are we going to remove mentions of Monica Lewinski from Clinton's ariticle? Are we going to remove mentions of Flint from Snyder's? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:405:4001:45B0:114C:A590:95F5:F0CE (talk) 02:03, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

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