| Revision as of 23:50, 12 April 2018 editChris troutman (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers54,800 edits →Nope: new section← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 12:48, 15 November 2024 edit undoZero0000 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators41,915 edits →Categorisation of Tariq Ramadan as a source?: delete violation of WP:BLP policyTag: Manual revert | ||
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| ==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment== | |||
| == Dhimmi: Jews == | |||
| ] This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ]. | |||
| In this section I have noticed a number of mistakes such as lack of citations and a lack of a complete picture. For example, one sentence states, "Accustomed to survival in adverse circumstances after many centuries of discrimination and persecution within the Roman Empire, both pre-Christian and Christian, Jews saw the Islamic conquests as just another change of rulers". The idea that Jews were "accustomed to survival" is very biased and does not take in the individual experience. In addition, I plan to add information from Norman Stillman's article "Myth, Countermyth, and Distortion" that presents information of Jewish status of dhimmi's being a bad aspect of living under Arab rule. This information will help develop the debate between Stillman and Cohen (who is already presented in this subsection) of the conditions of Jewish status dhimmi's living under Arab control. Specifically, I would like to present how they disagree and why these debates are significant in understanding Jewish dhimmi status. I believe that so far this subsection only presents Cohen's argument that live as a dhimmi was not so bad, not Stillman's view that Jews still faced a life of strict law and a fear of oppression. If anyone has any comments about these changes, feel free to let me know. | |||
| Stillman, Norman. "Myth, Countermyth, and Distortion." Tikkun (May, 1991). <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 07:17, 5 May 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| : {{ping|Lwalker3}} I don't see how you see that section as lacking citations, furthermore, I don't see why you frame this as a "debate between Stillman and Cohen" when the section cites ], ], ], ] and ]. 11:12, 5 May 2016 (UTC)] (]) | |||
| :: {{ping|Lwalker3}} I have no objection to adding Stillman's view, but the added paragraph has many problems, both linguistic and logical. I'm familiar with other writings by Stillman, and I'm pretty sure those problems weren't in the original. Since this article isn't readily available online, please quote the relevant passages so we can help to paraphrase them correctly. You've also deleted sourced content. The tagged unsouced portion is fair game to be challenged and removed, but you should either paraphrase the rest to preserve the sourced content or justify its removal. ] (]) 04:37, 12 May 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | |||
| == Heavy Bowdlerization == | |||
| No mention is made of the heavy discrimination against non-dhimmi polytheists. | |||
| ] (]) 02:34, 25 October 2016 (UTC) | |||
| Incomplete. Focuses on mildest most modern form of dhimmi which by all accounts is practices in Iran today. Ignores the early harsher form of dhimmi which ISIS/ISIL wishes to return. Also ignores a few negative if avoidable aspects of modern dhimmi system. These are important if not always flattering to Islam in the eyes of the West. Intellectually the modern system is discriminatory beyond mere separation of people by religion and lack of political power to permanent residents - but its usually livable to those who do not want to leave. | |||
| No mention that during the Jihad years, Muslims were discouraged for doing basic business with dhimmi quarter people -- to include selling basic foodstuffs. In many cases dhimmi quarters of different sects (e.g. Christians and Jews) were not allowed to trade with each other directly. Other times external trade was allowed but only under extremely heavy taxes (35%+). Also rights to own land was often restricted to the dhimmin quarter of a city. Thus in practice this was often merely a soft sell version of "convert or starve" in any but the largest captured cities. Originally only the largest cities had dhimmi quarter large enough to be self-sustaining. But gradually more exceptions were made for dhimmi merchants with special artisan skills which eroded prejudice in trade and undermined the economic pressure to convert to Islam. | |||
| It was not until the late 14th century, that things evolved to the only mildly discriminatory dhimmi system advertised above in most locations. However...this still usually meant that dhimmi citizen rights were only fully guaranteed within their own quarter or when engaged in legitimate business trip outside their quarter. Otherwise rights in practice wer somewhat variable especially after the strict curfew which applied in most cases to dhimmi citizen outside their quarter. Of course Islamic cities also applied curfew restriction on Islamic women and often even some restrictions on ordinary civilians. Still dhimmi citizen risked severe informal beatings were as Islamic citizens would get a hearing by a mullah which for males would likely be only a fine and at most a couple lashes (however, Islamic women found alone after dark might well be stoned as whores). | |||
| * Note by all accounts the Iran practices this modern dhimmi system of the article. | |||
| ** Note also that ISIS/ISIL wants the early 10th century-13th century stuff I described above in its rawest "convert or starve" format. Such fundamentalist considers the "modern" dhimmi like anything after the 13th century or end of Jihad expansion to be decadent and corrupted by western Christianity. | |||
| ] (]) 10:35, 10 June 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you have any good sources for the way ISIS treats or proposes to treat non-Muslims, please propose them here. ] (]) 16:25, 11 June 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Neutrality tag: Comparison with Jews outside Muslim rule == | |||
| I suppose this is a neutrality issue (does anyone have a better tag?). This article repeatedly compares the condition of Jews and Christians under Muslim rule with their conditions under the Catholics and Byzantines. What are such sentences are trying to prove and how often do we do this on Wiki? To give an example, do we ever say in any articles that the Nazis were better rulers for Poland than Russians and communists etc.? ] (]) 16:40, 18 June 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{replyto|Swingoswingo}} Comparison of the conditions under Islamic rule versus the rule by Gentiles is the only way to understand dhimmitude because forms of inequality were prevalent at the time. The ] section cites sources that describe the relative levels of freedom. Jews were persecuted in Christendom so the fact that they were second-class citizens under Muslims is not really a big deal. This isn't Misplaced Pages's value judgement about the justice of it; this is explaining to the reader what the conditions were under various leaders in an era when all sorts of discrimination were common. Dhimmitude is only one system of legal discrimination. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">] (])</span> 16:57, 18 June 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{u|Swingoswingo}} These aren't the questions we should be asking and trying to answer per WP policies. The relevant question is: do RSs make these comparisons when they discuss the topic? The answer is yes, as one can see from the citations. Per NPOV, we need to reflect how RSs cover the topic. | |||
| :: As for the discrimination sidebar, it doesn't meet it doesn't meet ] and its placement is ] here. The use of this term for pre-modern periods is controversial and most of the sources cited here don't use it. ] (]) 23:16, 19 June 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 19:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}} | |||
| == External links modified == | |||
| == Unsourced claims of second-class status == | |||
| I placed the unreliable source and citation needed tags on the claims of second class status in this argument months ago and since there has been no effort to add sources I am now leaning towards deletion. The only source provided is a link to a much less reputable wiki page, which is not a scholarly source. If you want to source what that page says you have to follow the sources from that page and link those. You cannot just cite an ideologically biased wiki page as definitive evidence on a historical topic. Those who wish to keep the references to supposed second-class status would do well to add a real source before it is deleted. ] (]) 16:46, 7 October 2021 (UTC) | |||
| Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
| :https://nyupress.org/9781479889457/the-sword-of-ambition/ | |||
| I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: | |||
| :Full of arguments why Jews and Christians need to be firmly kept in second class status. | |||
| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060813123204/http://www.renaissance.com.pk/ to http://www.renaissance.com.pk/ | |||
| :"The dimmis must not be permitted to call themselves by Muslim names, being addressed as 'Abu I-Hasan, 'Ab l-Husayn; 'Abu 'Ali,' 'Abu Tahir,' and the like. Likewise, we must bar them from using the honorific title of Shaykh, for the dignity of Islam and the pride of the faith flatly forbid that they should do this. They must be compelled to wear their distinguishing belts and clasp them about their waists in plain view. Let the rider take care not to hide his distinguishing belt by sitting on it. They must not be permitted to ride any kind of horse or mule. Let them not pass by the tombs of Muslims by day or by night. They must not be permitted caparisoned mounts. Let the caskets of their dead-open, not closed -be pulled along the ground by ropes of palm fiber. They must be forbidden to carry their caskets on their shoulders. Let them instead be dragged through the dust." The last part of the document reads: "Let them be forbidden to make their tombs white." ] (]) 20:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061115065145/http://www.renaissance.com.pk/martitl2y2.html to http://www.renaissance.com.pk/martitl2y2.html | |||
| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051109071705/http://www.twbookmark.com/books/52/0316566888/press_release.html to http://www.twbookmark.com/books/52/0316566888/press_release.html | |||
| == ] has an ]== | |||
| When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. | |||
| <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>''']''' has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the ''']'''.<!-- Template:Rfc notice--> Thank you. ] (]) 16:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} | |||
| == The first paragraph of this section is misleading. == | |||
| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 23:10, 9 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Reversion == | |||
| Chris, please explain the reason for <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:49, 3 March 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Regardless of what you claim BBC says, Misplaced Pages is not going to say what militant Muslims are trying to do. I didn't look at your source but we need to have solid sourcing for making a claim like that. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">] (])</span> 17:52, 3 March 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::that "source" was already in the article (the last citation in the section titled, "In modern times"), so can you restore that sentence? I don't want any edit war here. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:02, 3 March 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :::As the material is already in the article, it doesn't need to be added. Although it is in the article, it's doesn't need to be in the lede per ]. ''Jizya'' has existed for millennia and one BBC report saying ''Daesh'' is imposing it doesn't require a mention in the lede. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">] (])</span> 18:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC) | |||
| By way of rebuttal, consider this paragraph from a 14 century Muslim bureaucrat in Egypt (https://nyupress.org/9781479889457/the-sword-of-ambition/ ) | |||
| == Nope == | |||
| ''"The dimmis must not be permitted to call themselves by Muslim names, being addressed as 'Abu I-Hasan, 'Abu 'Ali,' 'Abu Tahir,' and the like. Likewise, we must bar them from using the honorific title of Shaykh, for the dignity of Islam and the pride of the faith flatly forbid that they should do this. They must be compelled to wear their distinguishing belts and clasp them about their waists in plain view. Let the rider take care not to hide his distinguishing belt by sitting on it. They must not be permitted to ride any kind of horse or mule. Let them not pass by the tombs of 'Muslims by day or by night. They must not be permitted caparisoned mounts. Let the caskets of their dead-open, not closed -be pulled along the ground by ropes of palm fiber.They must be forbidden to carry their caskets on their shoulders. Let them instead be dragged through the dust." The last part of the document reads:'Let them be forbidden to make their tombs white.' | |||
| {{to|Arsi786}} I reverted you. Please discuss before attempting to do again. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">] (])</span> 23:50, 12 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | ] (]) 19:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC) | ||
Latest revision as of 12:48, 15 November 2024
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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lwalker3.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Unsourced claims of second-class status
I placed the unreliable source and citation needed tags on the claims of second class status in this argument months ago and since there has been no effort to add sources I am now leaning towards deletion. The only source provided is a link to a much less reputable wiki page, which is not a scholarly source. If you want to source what that page says you have to follow the sources from that page and link those. You cannot just cite an ideologically biased wiki page as definitive evidence on a historical topic. Those who wish to keep the references to supposed second-class status would do well to add a real source before it is deleted. Puma6374 (talk) 16:46, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
- https://nyupress.org/9781479889457/the-sword-of-ambition/
- Full of arguments why Jews and Christians need to be firmly kept in second class status.
- "The dimmis must not be permitted to call themselves by Muslim names, being addressed as 'Abu I-Hasan, 'Ab l-Husayn; 'Abu 'Ali,' 'Abu Tahir,' and the like. Likewise, we must bar them from using the honorific title of Shaykh, for the dignity of Islam and the pride of the faith flatly forbid that they should do this. They must be compelled to wear their distinguishing belts and clasp them about their waists in plain view. Let the rider take care not to hide his distinguishing belt by sitting on it. They must not be permitted to ride any kind of horse or mule. Let them not pass by the tombs of Muslims by day or by night. They must not be permitted caparisoned mounts. Let the caskets of their dead-open, not closed -be pulled along the ground by ropes of palm fiber. They must be forbidden to carry their caskets on their shoulders. Let them instead be dragged through the dust." The last part of the document reads: "Let them be forbidden to make their tombs white." Victoryodaiken (talk) 20:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Timeline of antisemitism has an RfC
Timeline of antisemitism has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. patsw (talk) 16:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
The first paragraph of this section is misleading.
By way of rebuttal, consider this paragraph from a 14 century Muslim bureaucrat in Egypt (https://nyupress.org/9781479889457/the-sword-of-ambition/ )
"The dimmis must not be permitted to call themselves by Muslim names, being addressed as 'Abu I-Hasan, 'Abu 'Ali,' 'Abu Tahir,' and the like. Likewise, we must bar them from using the honorific title of Shaykh, for the dignity of Islam and the pride of the faith flatly forbid that they should do this. They must be compelled to wear their distinguishing belts and clasp them about their waists in plain view. Let the rider take care not to hide his distinguishing belt by sitting on it. They must not be permitted to ride any kind of horse or mule. Let them not pass by the tombs of 'Muslims by day or by night. They must not be permitted caparisoned mounts. Let the caskets of their dead-open, not closed -be pulled along the ground by ropes of palm fiber.They must be forbidden to carry their caskets on their shoulders. Let them instead be dragged through the dust." The last part of the document reads:'Let them be forbidden to make their tombs white.'
Victoryodaiken (talk) 19:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)Categories: