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==To-do list== ==To-do list==
Here's a list of possible things that the article might benefit from, in no particular order: Here's a list of possible things that the article might benefit from, in no particular order:
{{todo}}


Feel welcome to edit the list, of course. ] 23:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


1. Remove the liberal bias from the article. Oh wait, you wouldn't have an article without that...
==Never Seen Night Time==
at least until I went away to college, even then the sky was still a bright orange color (-;


:Reality has a liberal bias. Not necessarily for things that only affect relations between humans (whether kookoo anarchists should let legal heroin stores open in front of schools or not, is Hamas evil..) but definitely for environmental things. The conservative track record is very bad on that. And don't say liberal is tree hugging people that want no wood to be used ever and think the tree's spirit speaks to them, the average liberal's nothing like that.
* ya, I live in Las Vegas, so i know what you mean. But I'm also an amatuer astronomer, so I get away at least once a year.


Feel welcome to edit the list, of course. ] 23:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
==This article will help me with my science project==
Thanks!

"really semi-barbaric densely populated areas of the United States" -- that's supposed to be NPOV?!

== FAC? ==

Just came across this article and it's looking great! ] seems to have done a great job making this into a very good piece of work. I'd love to nominate this as a ], but I know there's one thing that might hold it back - references. If someone could add this one missing section (perhaps by rearranging the External links section) then I reckon it could become featured. ] ] 23:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
:Thanks, that's very flattering and I agree with you about the references. (So far I've been lazy, since a lot of the info that I've added has been coming from recollections of my own experience.) I'll look at improving them over the next few days to help back up the information. I also still feel that it's not quite complete yet, and it trails off a bit towards the end. In particular, there's quite a bit more that might be said about the methods of reducing light pollution. If anyone wants to help fill that in, the door's open. Otherwise I'll see what I can do. ] 01:41, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

== More pictures ==

I don't know if anyone's following the edits I've been making lately. If you are, though, can anyone provide an extra image or two for inclusion in the article? In particular, I've been looking around for a good picture of something like a drop-lens cobra fixture, taken during the day, to demonstrate how it's designed in such a way so that light will escape horizontally and upwards. Any other images that might demonstrate things in the article would be great too, of course.

I'd thought there might be free-to-use pictures available from the IDA, but it seems to want to charge even to obtain them, let alone re-publish.

] 07:09, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

]
]
:Well the quality could be better, but these two may help &mdash; by the way I assume these are cobra liuminairs based on the examples given elsewhere. If that's not right, please rename them. -- ] 15:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Thanks -- these are just what I had in mind. I'll try them out in the article. ] 21:02, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Temporarily (?) removed a paragraph ==

:''"According to a study performed by ] magazine, ], ] has the least amount of light pollution, and thererefore the darkest skies in the continental United States."''
I've just (temporarily) removed the above paragraph from the ''Consequences/Loss of night sky'' section, because it doesn't seem to fit there when I read it. It doesn't seem like a consequence to me. I'm not sure exactly which section it should go into as they are right now. It might be that the article needs a new section for the current state of light pollution in different parts of the world, or something like that, but if so it'd be nice to have a bit more information stated than a line about Utah in the USA. Hopefully it can be cited a bit more specifically soon, too -- I've contacted ] to ask about where it came from. Does anyone have any thoughts? ] 10:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

== readded blip about darkest sky in U.S. ==

october 2004, page 56 - cover article is entitled "America's Last Wild Places"] 03:42, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
:Neat, thanks. I've adjusted the citation slightly, for consistency as much as anything else. ] 05:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

::I presume the intention is to add the place with the darkest sky in every other country as well? Otherwise it is US-POV and should be removed - ] 23:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Point taken. It's very biased towards the US, and I'm not comfortable with that either. (I'm not from the US at all, FWIW.) I do think it's relevant, however, that people have to travel for hours or days at great expense just to get somewhere that's unaffected, and one or two representative examples of that would be beneficial, irrespective of where they come from. It might read better if it was worked into the surrounding text as a representative example. Not having access to the cited article, though, I don't want to start editing it blindly. ] 00:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Sofixit - its not like its a left-wing, right-wing thing. I simply supplied the relevant and useful information that I came across, and I wasn't considering politics. And personally I can't see any reason to consider politics. If you can provide similar info for other countries, that'd be wonderful. But it would be an over-reaction to start a NPOV debate over this. ] 00:16, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
:I'll see what I can find. Come to think of it, wouldn't the darkest place in the continental US be somewhere in Alaska? - or should it read "the contiguous states"? - ] 00:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

regarding your statement about Alaska, my assumption with that is the fact that it stays dark for about 3 or 4 hours in the summer up there. The sun doesn't set until about 11:00pm up there in the summer. When it does set, its more like a perpetual twilight rather than complete darkness. ] 00:58, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

== What do people think about re-formatting of references? ==

I've been thinking about re-formatting the references list to use footnote-style numbering templates. (My favourite is ], because it's auto-numbered.) The main reason I'd like to do this is because a lot of the citations aren't clear author-title-date specified. Instead, it's a mixture including many web pages, government reports, and so on. I've been finding it a bit difficult to briefly but accurately refer to specific references from within the text. A auto-numbered system could remove a lot of ambiguity and make the citations tidier to look at. The References section of the ] article is an example similar to what I have in mind.

How would others feel about this change, though? Is it a problem to anyone else? Are there better ways of fixing it? I realise that the numbering system is controversial in some ways, both for clarity in some people's view, as well as some technical arguments with respect to Misplaced Pages. (See ] for more detail).

] 03:59, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

== Cobra Luminarie (At night) ==


==Wiki Education assignment: BioEE1610 WIM==
G'day, I've an excelent opportunity to take a picture of both types of lights at night with the patterns of illumination visible. We are currently feeling the effects of ] and so I won't be able to take a good picture of the lights until a few days from now, but I'll add 'em here for your perusal. ] ] 16:42, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Cornell_University/BioEE1610_WIM_(Spring_2022) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2022-03-02 | end_date = 2022-03-31 }}
:Hello (again). Thanks for offering. If you do this, though, could you please make an effort to take notes of all the relevant camera settings? Photography's something that's quite easy to be creative with, maybe unfortunately in this case. One of the things I find a bit disturbing about many light pollution information sources and advocate groups is that they show lots of comparison photos, but don't clearly state any evidence that it's not just creative photography causing the lights to look less glarey, and so on. If someone was trying to use them to convince me, possible creative photography is one of the first things I'd question. If the relevant camera settings are all documented, though, it'll be much easier to present it objectively and from more of a neutral point of view. Maybe I'm pedantic, but it seems like a lazy way for so many organisations to do it, and I think it's something that Misplaced Pages could quite easily do much better than what tends to be the status quo. ] 06:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
::No, that sounds like an appropriate idea. MY thought is to take them both in the same picture. Of course, as with anything digital, that doesn't even matter but it is a little more appropriate when comparing...] ] 09:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


== Light pollution definition ==
==Question about efficiency of cobra light fixtures==
The article claims these fixtures are more efficient. This claim is unclear. My initial thinking reading this was that its not more energy efficient, since the same amount of power is drawn, but the light merely gets lost inside the fixture. I suppose it could be more efficient if the bulb is shaped to only allow light to point downward, or the inside of the fixture has some sort of mirror coating. Is this the case? If so, we should say so in the article, instead of just making this vague claim about efficiency. Thanks. ] 17:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
:Hello. The pictures (and their captions) used to be in the opposite order, so some of the context might have been lost by putting the full cutoff one first. What it ''should'' indicate is that a ''flat lens'' cobra fixture is a full cutoff fixture, whereas the drop-lens cobra fixture isn't. This means that the flat-lens fixture doesn't emit light to useless places (ie. sideways and upwards), so less energy is needed overall and the light can operate on less total power. This is explained in the text, but the caption didn't seem to prioritise the phrase "full cutoff", so it might not have been clear that that's what it was talking about. I've made a quick attempt to make it clearer, but I'm about to go out, so won't be able to look at it properly immediately. If anyone else wants to have a go meanwhile, help yourself. ] 06:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


Acording to Darksky international
== Recently added arguments against full cutoff lighting ==
"What is light pollution?"
"Light pollution is the human-made alteration of outdoor light levels from those occurring naturally." -> https://darksky.org/


I was on the boad of Dark Sky when this was changes. The reason is that old definition was biased by the industry and was incoherent of other definitions of pollution. Like the pollutants on the "1979 convention on long -range transboundary air pollution", where clearly, is included the light pollution. As is explained by the Legal comision of the UN: https://legal.un.org/ilc/reports/2015/english/chp5.pdf.
Hello. Anonymous user 68.166.244.209 recently added a paragraph that cited D. Keith in the "Journal of the IES", who (apparently) claims quite a few things about systems with full cutoff fixtures. Does anyone know which journal this is? The citation details don't seem to be specific enough to indicate which papers or articles are being referenced.


‘Air pollution’ means the introduction by human activities,
I did a quick google, and there's a which stands for "Journal of the Institution of Engineers Singapore". Then I looked a bit further, and indicates that the same name is also an alternate title for the .
directly or indirectly, of substances or '''<u>energy</u>''' into the atmosphere
resulting in deleterious effects on human life and health and the Earth’s
natural environment.


This was even explicitly said on other documents: https://legal.un.org/ilc/reports/2018/english/a_73_10_advance.pdf
Neither of these journals seem to have online table of contents details to indicate if the articles are there, and I'm not sure if I have access to a library at the moment. Does anyone (is the anon user still around?) have access to check this out? (One of the cites is here: http://www.iesna.org/PDF/abstractsJIESsummer2000.pdf with more info from D. Keith here: http://resodance.com/mdi/UUDcalc.pdf). The claims are likely to be quite contriversial, so it'd be good to have an accurate reference if it's going to be in the article. It'd be good to have some specific article titles and issue numbers rather than just years.


All this is expresed on more detail on : Bará, Salvador, Carmen Bao-Varela, and Fabio Falchi. "Light pollution and the concentration of anthropogenic photons in the terrestrial atmosphere." Atmospheric Pollution Research 13.9 (2022): 101541.
] 22:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


https://arxiv.org/abs/2210.14131 ] (]) 16:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
:This user also claims full-cutoff fixtures are 30-50% more expensive to install and operate than "more efficient" designs, without even hinting what these putative designs are. Perhaps globe luminaires might spray light further than full-cutoff models, allowing fewer streetlights to be installed, but this comes at the expense of increased glare.


:Your was:
:Guest 03:25, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
:{{difftext|'''Light pollution''' is the presence of any unwanted, inappropriate, or excessive artificial ]. In a descriptive sense, the term ''light pollution'' refers to the effects of any poorly implemented lighting sources, during the day or night.|'''Light pollution''' is the presence of any artificial ]. In a descriptive sense, the term ''light pollution'' refers to lighting sources, during the day or night.}}
:The sources you're referring to here don't seem to support your suggested definition of all artificial light being light pollution. --] (]) 17:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
::On this review paper you can see how light levels https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/22/6400 https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.767177/full at all scales are been impacted. You are right that should not be "any artificial light", should be "any artificial light at night" and some reflected light during day (light reflected by some solar panels for example). ] (]) 21:52, 8 October 2024 (UTC)


==Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA24 - Sect 200 - Thu==
::I think you're right. This is quite controversial. On its own this shouldn't be a problem, but and theres really not and specific enough citation to back it up. I'm going to remove the paragraph in question (it's included below for easier future reference) from the article on these grounds. Unfortunately the anonymous user who inserted it doesn't seem to be available to comment on it's authenticity and context. I have no objection to it being put back ''if'' the citation can be clarified and made specific enough to track down each specific publication that's being cited, and ''as long as'' the article explains it in context. eg. If D. Keith is a radical researcher whom few peers agree with, we should make it quite clear that it's not a commonly held opinion, or exactly what circles the opinion is held in. ] 06:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/New_York_University/Research_Process_and_Methodology_-_FA24_-_Sect_200_-_Thu_(Fall) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2024-09-05 | end_date = 2024-12-13 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 03:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)</span>
:: '''Removed text (which is adapted from the original) is as follows:''' "Some researchers (Keith, D., Journal of the IES, 2000, 2002, 2003) have reported that using "full cutoff" light fixtures increases the costs and energy use necessary to meet the objectives of the lighting. When lighting a roadway continuously in accordance with the American National Standard Practice for Roadway Lighting, IESNA full cutoff distributions increase the initial and operating costs by around 20% and up to 50% compared to more effective light distributions. This does NOT mean all full cutoff distributions are worse than others, but that lighting systems with full cutoff distributions will typically NOT be the most cost and energy efficient lighting choice. Not only are full cutoff distributions usually more expensive to install and operate, but also side-effects such as mercury pollution (from generation of electricity) will increase by the same proportion. Uplight, light above horizontal that contributes to sky glow has also been shown to increase (Keith, D., Journal of the IES, 2000, 2003) when full cutoff distributions are used."

Latest revision as of 14:19, 16 November 2024

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To-do list for Light pollution: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2008-09-05

  • It is inaccurate in "Measurement of light pollution and Global Effects" section to say that work by Cinzano et al. "measures" the sky glow by using DMSP observations - this discussion should be corrected to say that this work provides a crude estimate using a model, and only of the zenith. For example, it uses sea-level atmospheric conditions everywhere, which cannot give accurate results in western US nor in aerosol-laden areas. Further, the photometric accuracy of the DMSP data has not been established and has been questioned in the refereed literature. Since someone else wrote this section, I will let them revise unless I am asked to do so. Cluginbuhl (talk) 23:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
      • There is a specific organization that suppress any efforts to give Italy a unique national bill against light pollution, which is Ente Nazionale di Unificazione, founded in the early years of 1900 to standardize industrial testing, materials, procedures and so on.

Its members are universities, public administrations, representatives of manifacturing industries and so on. It produced a specific standard UNI 10819 to (very theoretically) protect the sky from light pollution and some lectures to defend it against the hordes of people that recognized how that standard LEGALIZED light pollution rather than reduce it, but if every one agree I can try to translate their thoughts. To point out how scientists can vary their opinions about this topic it could be useful to summarize prof Zichichi article on catholic magazine "Famiglia Cristiana" and the remarks of prof Maffei, an italian astronomer who pionereed infrared photografic surveys to Zichichi's article. Again, I can traslate. As a final suggestion based on my own experience in Italy I have to remark that the "dispute" about light pollution depends on the strong relationship that links light and energy industries, universities, politicians. Light and energy industries are trying to increase profits and do not accept any regulamentation, universities have to defend their own business and do not like that someone else discovers and applies cheaper and environmental safe lighting rules, politicians fear to lose a powerful argument to gain votes, summarized as "daylight intensity lighting for safety against crime". But I have to remark that only 7 1/2 italian regions on 20, 40% of land and 30% of population have to bear "industrial" lighting rules: in 2007 Liguria, Friuli Venezia Giulia and half of Trentino Alto Adige rejected UNI standards to adopt "zero lighting above lamps" rules. How can exist a "dispute" about light pollution when the majority of a nation says that night skies have to be protected ? --195.210.65.30 (talk) 08:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Check that references are formatted properly, both in the references list and in the article. Seems to be done now. Izogi 03:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Expand the table of luminaires in the Adjusting types of lighting section.
    • This list is based on data in the IDA Information Sheet 52, which still needs to be cited.
      • For the record, that particular IDA information sheet might not be a reliable source... see this discussion. Izogi 23:54, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
        • i tend to agree with izogi and question the validity of this as a source Anlace 22:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Expand the Organisations section so that it explains a bit about the formation of various organisations, instead of just listing a couple.
    • It might be useful to include a lighting engineering organisation or two, if there are any prominent ones.
    • Are there any well known organisations that actively counter what anti-LP campaigners say? If so, it's probably worth mentioning them to maintain a neutral point of view.
  • Add a more specific citation for the information in Interruption of the eco-system which refers to Michael Mesure's comments about the deaths of millions of birds. (Although I don't doubt he's said it, I couldn't find a reference, myself -- Izogi) Well tidied up by a helpful anonymous user—Thanks heaps. Izogi 10:23, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Some of the text in the Types of light pollution section might actually belong in the Consequences of light pollution section, or maybe not.
  • Consider expanding the section about Redesigning lighting plans, or perhaps merge it into other sections. It seems a bit short right now. Done. Izogi 03:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Should the paragraph about Calgary be moved to this section? Done. Izogi 03:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Maybe think about adding a section to do with the current state of light pollution around the world. (Don't know how this would work, but the text about Utah having the least LP in the US doesn't seem to fit well in the Consequences of light pollution section.) Thoughts? Izogi 8 July 2005 07:01 (UTC)
  • Note something about pollution of the radio spectrum. (This may actually warrant its own article, but it should at least be cited here.) Izogi Added a disambiguation page and (for now) linked it to a radio spectrum pollution stub. Izogi 05:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Establish better link to Lighting article and to energy conservation in generalAnlace 17:50, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

To-do list

Here's a list of possible things that the article might benefit from, in no particular order:


1. Remove the liberal bias from the article. Oh wait, you wouldn't have an article without that...

Reality has a liberal bias. Not necessarily for things that only affect relations between humans (whether kookoo anarchists should let legal heroin stores open in front of schools or not, is Hamas evil..) but definitely for environmental things. The conservative track record is very bad on that. And don't say liberal is tree hugging people that want no wood to be used ever and think the tree's spirit speaks to them, the average liberal's nothing like that.

Feel welcome to edit the list, of course. Izogi 23:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: BioEE1610 WIM

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 March 2022 and 31 March 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Pdt35 (article contribs).

Light pollution definition

Acording to Darksky international "What is light pollution?" "Light pollution is the human-made alteration of outdoor light levels from those occurring naturally." -> https://darksky.org/

I was on the boad of Dark Sky when this was changes. The reason is that old definition was biased by the industry and was incoherent of other definitions of pollution. Like the pollutants on the "1979 convention on long -range transboundary air pollution", where clearly, is included the light pollution. As is explained by the Legal comision of the UN: https://legal.un.org/ilc/reports/2015/english/chp5.pdf.

‘Air pollution’ means the introduction by human activities, directly or indirectly, of substances or energy into the atmosphere resulting in deleterious effects on human life and health and the Earth’s natural environment.

This was even explicitly said on other documents: https://legal.un.org/ilc/reports/2018/english/a_73_10_advance.pdf

All this is expresed on more detail on : Bará, Salvador, Carmen Bao-Varela, and Fabio Falchi. "Light pollution and the concentration of anthropogenic photons in the terrestrial atmosphere." Atmospheric Pollution Research 13.9 (2022): 101541.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2210.14131 Pmisson (talk) 16:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Your change to the lead was:
−'''Light pollution''' is the presence of any unwanted, inappropriate, or excessive artificial ]. In a descriptive sense, the term ''light pollution'' refers to the effects of any poorly implemented lighting sources, during the day or night.+'''Light pollution''' is the presence of any artificial ]. In a descriptive sense, the term ''light pollution'' refers to lighting sources, during the day or night.
The sources you're referring to here don't seem to support your suggested definition of all artificial light being light pollution. --Belbury (talk) 17:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
On this review paper you can see how light levels https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/22/6400 https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.767177/full at all scales are been impacted. You are right that should not be "any artificial light", should be "any artificial light at night" and some reflected light during day (light reflected by some solar panels for example). Pmisson (talk) 21:52, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA24 - Sect 200 - Thu

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2024 and 13 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Qiuyi Y (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Qiuyi Yang (talk) 03:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

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