Talk:2001 Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident: Difference between revisions

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	== A ~~Funny~~ ~~Joke~~ ==		== External links modified ==

	-Why do the authors of this propaganda piece... I mean article feel the need to remind us about the "state-run media" every other sentence?

	-Why is it overloaded with emotionally charged, POV, opinion-based phrases such as "torture and imprisonment of its practitioners", "a belief that is not supported by Falun Gong’s teachings", "campaign of state propaganda", "eradicate Falun Gong", "widespread use of torture, sometimes resulting in death",

	-Why does it give undue weight to conspiracy theories involving men in dark overcoats, complete with fuzzy photographs that prove absolutely nothing? The general consensus is not that this incident was staged by evil fu-Manchu sinister Chinese government officials in dark overcoats who appear out of nowhere to strike deadly blows upon burning human beings without anybody noticing.

	Could it be, shock horror, because this is another FLG propaganda article policed by FLG SPA's? ] (]) 15:36, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

	* Controversial claims, such as those presented by the state-run Chinese press, should be given inline attribution.
	* There is nothing POV, emotionally charged, or opinion-based in these statements of fact. This is the kind of language used by reliable sources on the subject.
	* There is one short paragraph explaining the analysis of CCTV footage showing the man in military overcoat striking down the woman. This piece of evidence has been referenced in several RS articles on this subject. It's notable, and not given inordinate weight.
	*Who are these FLG SPAs you're referring to? ] (]) 16:18, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

	:*I took this article to FAC, and was disappointed after a small bunch of editors usurped it and turned it into what you see. I tried to return some semblance of political neutrality to it, but you will see my efforts were in vain; it has gotten worse. If even I give up, as I have, I fear few others are likely to tread this quagmire. --<small>] ]</small> 10:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
	::FYI, that guy was site banned then banned as an abusive sock... ] (]) 13:18, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
	:::That user most definitely had issues with his conduct, though pointing that out is mostly a ]. The real problem is that this article's balance had been totally destroyed since it was taken to FA status, and that it should undergo FAR. I personally feel sympathetic to the users who worked so hard to get the article to where it was for FA, just to see it wither away gradually. ]+<small>(])</small> 14:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:Wow, this article is absolutely pathetic and has massive POV problems, and I have only read the intro.
	*"to protest the unfair treatment of Falun Gong by the Chinese government." - unfair is not attributed but is written in wikipedia's voice - POV of course
	*"to justify the torture and imprisonment of its practitioners." - what? way to go to the extreme rather than simply stating "to justify persecution of its practitioners."
	*"and the government began sanctioning "systematic use of violence" against the group." - sourced to let's see, "Falun Gong practitioners"... statements by the Chinese gov are constantly attributed yet highly controversial and important claims are written as fact.
	:I need to get to work now, I hope there is discussion work done while I am away, there is no question a POV banner is required for such a blatant - at least to POV watchers - propaganda piece. ] (]) 12:46, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

			I have just modified {{plural:1\|one external link\|1 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	::Good points, and thanks for being specific with your concerns. I agree on the first two points. For the first, maybe we could just delete "unfair." On the second point, your proposal seems good. As to the third, the source of the "systematic use of violence" is the Washington Post, not Falun Gong practitioners. If you find other issues of this nature, please point them out. ] (]) 16:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140706224534/http://culteducation.com/group/1254-falun-gong/6781-one-way-trip-to-the-end-in-beijing.html to http://www.culteducation.com/group/1254-falun-gong/6781-one-way-trip-to-the-end-in-beijing.html
	:::I fixed the first two (I actually think it is better to keep the introductions bland, so I chose "campaign" over "persecution." The third point only appears in quotes and is sourced to WaPo so I think it is OK. For the record I had not read the lead (I actually still didn't read it now) and was not aware of this obviously biased language. ] (]) 18:52, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
	::::"systematic use of violence...the sources said" - The WP attributes it, although paraphrased, to their sources, which are stated in the previous paragraph as being "according to government sources and Falun Gong practitioners." I have not read the article yet, not really interested/knowledgeable in the topic, really I hate wikipedia, the vast majority of social topics are highly POV pushing. ] (]) 19:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).
	*And uh, what are the other POV concerns and how may they be fixed? Specific sentences or sections that need attention is helpful ("blatant propaganda piece" is, unfortunately, not actionable). ] (]) 18:55, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false}}
	== Facts.org.cn ==

			Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 03:39, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
	This website is cited three times in this article: once for direct Chinese government propaganda , one for a Reuters article and once in the external links section. I believe the first should be purged because the source is unreliable and a hate/propaganda site; I believe the second should refer simply to the Reuters articles without linking to facts.org.cn's version, which by hosting it is probably perpetrating copyright infringement; and I believe the link should be removed from the EL section according to item 2 of ] ("Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting") and the copyright abuse issue mentioned above. If there are no objections I will do this soon. ] (]) 20:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	: I notice this page has an external link to this website. This website claimed itself on its homepage as a civilian anti FG website. However, one government document showed this Facts.org.cn was created and run by ] in the name of civilian organization. The document mentioned all governments at province, municipality and county level had listed submission to fact.org.cn as an evaluation objective for Leading cadres. Also one branch of CCP's Politics and Law Committee had a policy that urged staff to submit articles for this website and claimed each article with 500 words and more) would be awarded 500 RMB and each article with less words would be awarded 400 RMB. It seems that 6-10 office used such a fake web not only for attacking FG and but also generating high incomes for themselves from tax payers. I suggest the external link to such fake web should not be included in this page. ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 13:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	== Inappropriate balance ==

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	I think this article have an inappropriate balance because contains few announcement of then Chinese Government but opinions from Falun Gong are widely used in this article, this reaches an inappropriate balance and I think if this problem are not fixed, this article shouldn't be marked as "Featured Article".--] (]) 22:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141028001341/http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA17/011/2000/en/7a361a8e-df70-11dd-acaa-7d9091d4638f/asa170112000en.html to https://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA17/011/2000/en/7a361a8e-df70-11dd-acaa-7d9091d4638f/asa170112000en.html
	:The above editor nominated this article for FAR minutes after making this comment. This is not enough time to allow for discussion and article improvements, and such time is required per step one of the FAR process. Due to this, the review is currently on hold, pending discussion and/or improvement. If such is not forthcoming, the review may be reinitiated after at least a week. ] (]) 23:44, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
	::This issue of 'what is the appropriate degree of balance' has been addressed endlessly on the talk page. If you wish to pick up the discussion again---and by all means, you may---please do so with reference to previous discussion. The best answer to the question of the appropriate degree of balance was given here: . The diff contains the full text of the section from David Ownby's book dedicated to retelling this story. Ownby is arguably the leading scholar on this, and his treatment serves as the best guide we have to what is due weight. The article currently follows his narrative quite closely in terms of structure, weight, and balance (though ours is more detailed). If you would like to respond to that in specific, please go ahead. But rather than broad claims, discussion is most helpful when focused around specific facts, statements, views, or sources that are missing. May I suggest that if this discussion is to continue, it focus on center on specific problems identified, or specific suggestions for improvement. ] (]) 01:18, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
	:::Due to the lack of response by the FAR nominator, I have deleted the FAR page. If any editors still feel the article is not up to FA specs, they need to discuss the issues here, ''first''. ] (]) 13:56, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	== The death cause of Liu Siying ==

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	As mentioned in the page "Twelve million children submitted writings disapproving of the practice" , I learned this is related to Liu Siying's death. Though the state media said she died of heart condition (it is suspicious), in Children textbook her death was blamed on self-immolation. I think the death cause of liu Siying should be one of the important topics in this page. Since it was almost not touched, I added the following content in the Falun Gong's Response section. Today I found it was deleted due to "primary source FLG material".
	The section title is Falun Gong Response, I feel FLG source should be acceptable. Is it right? The content I added was too long. Can anyone help summarize it? Thanks in advance.

	"World Organization for the Investigation Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG) exhibited the testimony of a doctor from Jishuitan Hospital where Liu Siying stayed before she died. The doctor claimed that Liu Siying's death is very suspicious and said, "Liu Siying's burn treatment was about completed, and her body had basically recovered to its normal state. She had already decided to leave the hospital. In light of these circumstances her death appears very suspicious." The doctor disclosed, on March 16, the day before she died, that the hospital did a comprehensive check up on Liu and found her condition to be completely normal. The hospital doctor also confirmed that on that morning of the day when Liu Siying died "Jishuitan Hospital staff and the Beijing Medical Administration Department's director even conversed with her, and at that time, Liu Siying's health was still normal". {{cite web \|publisher=World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong \|url=http://clearharmony.net/articles/200502/24690.html \|title=WOIPFG points to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) as a suspect of single handedly directing the "Tiananmen Square Self-immolation" and murdering potential informers.\|accessdate= 13 October 2012}}

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 21:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
	Falun Gong Minghui website reported that Liu Siying was denied for family visitation and died Mysteriously. It said "the authorities did not allow any reporters other than those from Xinhua News Agency to interview 12-year-old Siying, nor did they allow any of her family members to visit. They even threatened her grandmother, to such an extent that the elderly woman was terrified to be interviewed by any reporters. During the period of time right before she died, including Friday, March 16, 2001, one day before her death, Liu Siying’s electrocardiogram (EKG) and other tests all showed normal results. Then, on Saturday, March 17, 2001, between 11:00 a.m. and 12:00 p.m., doctors suddenly discovered that Liu Siying was in critical condition. She died shortly afterwards. In addition, on the morning of March 17, 2001, between 8:00 and 9:00 a.m., the head of the Jishuitan Hospital and the head of the Beijing City Medical Administration Division paid a visit to Liu Siying at her hospital room and talked to her for quite a long time. At that time, Liu Siying was still quite animated and active. The autopsy of Liu Siying took place at the Jishuitan Hospital, but the autopsy report was issued by the Emergency Center. In addition, the autopsy report didn’t disclose any discussion of the case. It only made a general statement that her death was likely due to problems with her myocardium." Before Liu Siying's death, the state media never mentioned Liu Siying had any heart conditions. Falun Gong practitioners analyzed that "among the people accused of self-immolation, Liu Siying is the person who was most likely to divulge the secrets because she was so young that the threats would not have been as effective as they would be used on the adults. The adults could be sentenced to jail or isolated from the outside world, at least temporarily. But Liu Siying was under the legal age of being detained. Therefore, to detain her publicly would have an extremely negative impact, but releasing her would leave them vulnerable that she might speak-out, and let the truth be known. The only way to guarantee her silence and avoid divulging any secrets to the public was to kill her." {{cite web \|publisher=Falun Dafa Minghui.org \|url=http://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2011/10/1/128478.html#.UHmYacXR6So \|title=54 Facts That Reveal How the "Self-Immolation" on Tiananmen Square Was Actually Staged for Propaganda Purposes - Part 2\|accessdate= 13 October 2012}}" ] (]) 03:20, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	::It's fine to have some primary sources used appropriately to describe FLG's response, but this is not just FLG's response. This is presenting new evidence, and passing it off as facts, without stating where that information came from. I guess that's probably why it was removed (that and it's really long). Just to give one example, how does Falun Dafa Minghui know that the head of the Jishuitan Hospital visited Siying just before her death? We can't give this angle more emphasis than what good, independent sources give it, but if you think it isn't given enough weight and need help figuring out what to write, maybe I could look into it.] (]) 04:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
	::: Thanks a lot for your reply. It seems that Minghui got the information from WOIPFG's Jishuitan Hospital Medical Personnel Investigative Report. WOIPEF mentioned that this report was kept confidential for the purpose of protecting witness, but WOIPFG is willing to provide it to international criminal courts) . There were so many different issues involved in this case, so maybe other independent organization simply did not notice Li Siying's death cause report from WOIPFG. If you can help make a simple summary, that will be great. ] (]) 11:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
	::::Unfortunately I did not have the time to closely examine this and pick out the key parts. How about this, Marvin2009: summarize the key point you would like to get across in the above, in about three sentences. That will save us some time, then we can add it to the article. It was far too long as it stood, especially introducing these important factual claims as a primary source. Please summarize the most important point in a few sentences, and if there are no objections we can include. ] (]) 01:52, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
	:::: Thanks for your advice. I would like to sum it up as below. Please feel free to modify. Thank you.
	:::: The cause of the death of Liu Siying was highly suspicious. WOIPFG exhibited the following testimony from one of medical staff who treated her in Jishuitan Hospital: during the period of time right before she died, including March 16 one day before her death, Liu Siying’s electrocardiogram (EKG) and other tests all showed normal results; On March 17 between 8 am to 9 am when the head of the Jishuitan Hospital and the head of the Beijing City Medical Administration Division paid a visit to Liu Siying at her hospital room and talked to her for quite a long time, Liu Siying was still quite animated and active; On March 17 between 11am to 12pm, doctors suddenly discovered that Liu Siying was in critical condition and She died shortly afterwards. ] (]) 21:55, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	There's a sentence in there that says "The documentary also addresses the medical treatment and ultimate death of Liu’s 12-year-old daughter." Just build on that. Something like "The documentary also says that Liu's 12-year-old daughter died under unusual circumstances in hospital, noting that she was recovering well before dying suddenly on March 17th. Some Falun Gong sources argue that she may have been killed by the government as a way of guaranteeing her silence." Is that good? And would the government have any response to that allegation that should be noted? ] 01:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

			I have just modified 4 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	: Thanks to The BlueCanoe. I cannot find any response from CCP media to such an allegation from WOIPFG. However, some inconsistency could be found between CCP media's March 3rd news (2 weeks before she died) and CCP media's March 18th news (the 2nd day after Liu died ). In March 3rd news, a reporter from Health Newspaper wrote: Liu Siying was relatively stable after over one month treatment and there was no serious Complication. No mentioning any heart conditions. In March 19th news (2 days after she died), the head of Jishuitan Hospital said: Liu Siying in the past had a Myocarditis history and had never been healed. After she was sent to the hospital on January 23, the burn was cured through medical staff's great effort, but Liu Siying's heart function had been out of the way all the time and her heart rate had been at about 140-170 times per minute. In response to these two news, one mainland medical doctor argued (on April 5 2001's Minghui news ) the the hospital head's words 'Liu Siying's heart function had been out of the way all the time and her heart rate had been at about 140-170 times per minute for over one month' showed Liu Siying experienced serious Complication, which could lead to death anytime, because ... If so , how could the mainland media said on March 3rd there was no serious Complication happened to Liu Siying. The doctor also questioned why the hospital and any mainland media never mentioned Liu's Myocarditis history (and it was never healed) before her death when many Chinese had been very concerned about Liu Siying's health. The doctor deduced that the answer was simple, the 'stage' was temporarily built for covering up Liu's real death cause. ] (]) 12:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091003100854/http://www.hum.leidenuniv.nl/chinees/organisatie/medewerkers-alfabetisch/haarbjter.html to http://www.hum.leidenuniv.nl/chinees/organisatie/medewerkers-alfabetisch/haarbjter.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090327075424/http://org.law.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/new_devs/RJLR_ND_66.pdf to http://org.law.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/new_devs/RJLR_ND_66.pdf
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716071845/http://missions.itu.int/~china/pressrelease/archives/pressrelease01.htm to http://missions.itu.int/~china/pressrelease/archives/pressrelease01.htm
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131029202638/http://old.nationalreview.com/comment/commentprint021301a.html to http://old.nationalreview.com/comment/commentprint021301a.html

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	== Featured article review ==

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	Today, an editor created a FAR for this article. Because there was no previous talk page discussion, as is required, the review has been placed on hold. Below I am copying the nominator's rationale. Please discuss. ] (]) 21:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 11:59, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
	''Start copy'': I am nominating this featured article for review because it doesn't seem to have a neutral viewpoint, and there is a significant change between original FA and current article. When I read this article, I feel it always tries to tell me the "truth", and leads me to the conclusion that the incident was staged by someone. In recent time it's current version was translated into Chinese Misplaced Pages, and frankly I am disappointed in it's neutrality. I do not think this article fits all of the featured article criteria to be identified as one of the BEST article in English Misplaced Pages. I earnestly request reconsidering the quility of this article. Thanks. ] (]) 21:29, 4 March 2013 (UTC) ''End copy''

			== Move discussion in progress ==
	:I appreciate your assist. I noticed some concerns have been posted on talk page and if it is inappropriate I accept it.--] (]) 21:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

			There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Tiananmen crosspost --> —] 05:30, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
	::There has been no discussion that resulted in the need for a FAR. Basically, the talk page step is there to make people try to talk things out on the talk page first. As this article has editors interested in maintaining its quality, you are quite likely to get a response from one or more of them here. It is best, if possible, to work these types of things out on the talk page. ] (]) 00:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

			== Possible changes to keep FA status ==
	:::A lot of the reliable source coverage of the incident deals mainly with the matter of whether or not the event was staged. Since that's ''the'' question that has animated the debate about the self-immolation, it would be problematic if the article didn't present that evidence and counter-evidence.
	:::The role of Misplaced Pages is to ''describe'' the debate in a neutral and complete way, and not to take a side or pass judgement. So the language used has to be dispassionate and factual, and shouldn't appear to be endorsing one view or another. I don't think this article has any major problems in that sense, but if you do, maybe you could explain how, and then we could try to figure out how to make improvements. ] 01:40, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

			*There are apparently a few unsourced sentences or at least lacking in-line citations, including an entire paragraph in the "Falun Gong response" section.
	::::That is what I am talking about, describing the debate neutrally instead of the fact asserted by any side. But it seems to be an unfair debate since the very begining, the selection of sources results in the bias on expression. And some primary source is overused to prove arguement. Besides, some content is still unclear without source such as "public sympathy". Limited to my English proficiency, it is better to be reviewed by peer editors, and that is also my main purpose.--] (]) 08:44, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
			*Shouldn't this have an infobox?
			<big>]</big> ] 00:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress

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Possible changes to keep FA status

There are apparently a few unsourced sentences or at least lacking in-line citations, including an entire paragraph in the "Falun Gong response" section.
Shouldn't this have an infobox?

Skyshifter 00:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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