Talk:2001 Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident: Difference between revisions

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	== Revert ==

	I reverted the latest edit by an IP, who is presumably the same person as "Wykymyst." I have not had time to look through the other edits. I don't know how many of them are useful and how many are along the lines of the one I just undid: not very helpful and don't read well. When I get a moment I will go through the rest of them and make more changes as I consider due, and then make some notes on this page explaining my thinking. The reciprocal will be appreciated by this new editor. ] (]) 18:19, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
	:I have reverted the revert of this edit. No explanation as to why. You need to justify the original huge raft of changes. ] (]) 06:18, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

	::It seems you didn't go back far enough to effectively undo this huge raft of changes. I just restored the lede and background sections to be much closer to what they were under the previous version, adding a few bits here and there of research that I read recently and was reminded of. There were other places in the article where I found that someone had inserted repetitious points of evidence pointing to a hoax in various places where it didn't belong, and other instances of sub-par writing, so I tried to clean it up where I could. Every time I read this article I feel that there's a lot we could do to tighten it up, though I recognise that would be a difficult and potentially controversial thing to do.—'''<font color="darkred">Zujine</font>\|]''' 05:18, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

	Looks like it happened again. I'm reverting this, and here's why:
	*The government didn't initially claim that this was a protest against mistreatment.
	*It's repetitive, with the Falun Gong perspective repeated twice in the same short paragraph
	*There's extraneous information that should be buried much deeper in the article, instead of in the establishing paragraph
	*Overall it detracts from the clarity and objectivity of the introduction.] 14:33, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

	Hi, I am the Wykymyst editor who had done the changes. And my rationale was going by the best of sources available - Peter Pan, Ian Johnson, to documentaries done by respectable folks - ALL OF WHICH say the same thing. IT WAS STAGED. And a bit of human sense - I mean how much more obvious could it be. But then human sense has no place in an encyclopedia you can argue. And my edit and each sentence were supported by multiple sources. Do not let other users set up an inital bias in your brain, which then will lead you to echo things from their biased viewpoint.
⚫	] 12:10, 20 ~~April~~ ~~2014~~ (UTC)

	::I'm biased towards good writing. You didn't address the reasons for the revert, which was that your edits made the introductory section less clear, coherent, and readable.] 14:56, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


	==Huh?==
	Looking for an explanation for this change. I added a source to the point about how officials were calling for an intensified propaganda effort just weeks before this event took place, and it was removed. Also, I don't think the editor's change to the opening of the paragraph in question is an improvement in any sense. It does not make the meaning any clearer.

	I'm also going to address a couple other things this editor removed. I like some of the edits, but the lead section needs to have more explanation of the dispute and sources of contention. Also (and I meant to change this in my last edit--sorry) it doesn't seem kosher for Misplaced Pages editors to be issuing declarations about what's "heterodox." Finally, the 610 Office was formed with a single mandate, which was to target Falun Gong. I'll make these changes now. Happy to discuss. ] 03:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

	:I’m afraid Ohconfucius is generally not wont to discuss his changes on the talk page; in this case he opted to violate the 3RR rather than try to reach a consensus.

	:But you are right about the 610 Office. It was formed in 1999 with the sole objective of targeting the Falungong. At the time of this incident in 2001 this was still its only mandate. It was not until 2003 that its parent organisation changed its name from the “Central Leading Group for Dealing with Falun Gong” to the ’’Central Leading Group on Dealing with Heretical Religions.” When writing about an event that took place in 1999 or 2001, referring to the latter is anachronistic.

	:I also have to agree that the lede must include mention of at least some of the evidence that challenged the government’s story. Many people don’t read past the lede section, and without referencing Pan’s findings or other incongruities, they’ll have no idea whether there is any real basis for the disagreement.

	:Also looking at this edit: While Ohconfucius says his goal is to remove “excessive characterisation” and use the “factual/official” explanation for the ban, he does just the opposite. He adds all sorts of unnecessary qualifications about the “massive propaganda campaign” description (a term used by Ownby as well as Amnesty International), and uses a highly compromised primary source (Chinese state-run media agency) to make assertions about the factual basis for a political persecution campaign. Altogether this is just not a useful edit from any perspective.—'''<font color="darkred">Zujine</font>\|]''' 21:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

	== External links modified ==		== External links modified ==
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	There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Tiananmen crosspost --> —] 05:30, 26 November 2017 (UTC)		There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Tiananmen crosspost --> —] 05:30, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

			== Possible changes to keep FA status ==

			*There are apparently a few unsourced sentences or at least lacking in-line citations, including an entire paragraph in the "Falun Gong response" section.
			*Shouldn't this have an infobox?
		⚫	<big>]</big> ] 00:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Tiananmen which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:30, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Possible changes to keep FA status

There are apparently a few unsourced sentences or at least lacking in-line citations, including an entire paragraph in the "Falun Gong response" section.
Shouldn't this have an infobox?

Skyshifter 00:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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