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== Move discussion in progress ==

There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Gjon Kastrioti crosspost --> —] 07:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

== Serbian origin theory. ==

Why were my edits removed? I just don't understand, you just remove it without any reason. It also had sources AND the same sentences are on this ] and ]. If that many sources are not enough, I will give even more. ] (]) 18:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
:Like much of nobility in the Middle Ages, he had mixed roots. His mother was very likely from a Slavic background -- although what specifically that was could probably debated between Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian (many of the Slavs even in Kosovo could be called "Bulgarian" in the time period given considerable prior Bulgarian rule). Of course for Balkan nationalists this means they get to claim the national heroes of neighboring (and sometimes hostile) nations as their "own". Obviously this is ridiculous, and this very tribal conception of national identity is one reason why Balkan disputes are the laughingstock of the rest of Europe. Nevertheless, on Misplaced Pages we have to deal with this bullshit from time to time -- witness also the longstanding Croatian nationalist campaign to emphasize how ] was born in Croatia-- now enshrined in the ], not to mention Milos Obilic (or should I say "Millosh Kopilli" as some Kosovar Albanians wishfully think). Do we need a coatrack section about this on this page? No, we don't.--] (]) 12:44, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
* '''Support inclusion of text about Skanderbeg's Serb origin''' - Per ] and Calthinus. I agree with Calthinus that it is wrong to present this person as ethnically 100% Albanian. The proposed text about his Serb origin deserves place in this article having in mind that there is a scientific consensus that Skanderbeg was of Serb origin trough his father (). Majority of contemporary reliable sources emphasize that Skanderbeg was Serb also trough his mother. I agree with what {{U|Calthinus}} wrote about Croatian and Albanian nationalisms and how they get to {{tq|.... claim the national heroes of neighboring .... nations as their "own".}}. I also agree with Calthinus that text about Skanderbeg's Serb origin do not deserve a whole section. A couple of short proposed paragraphs can be placed in section about Skanderbeg's early life. --] (]) 17:20, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
:: Cute. However, there is no such "scientific consensus" and for inclusion such paragraphs will need to be amended to adhere to ] on this issue, which there is ''not'' a consensus about (on Misplaced Pages or in scholarship). --] (]) 17:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
:I fully agree with Antidiskriminator. ] (]) 17:34, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
::{{u|Jingiby}} I take this to mean you are also asserting there is a "scientific consensus that Skanderbeg was of Serb origin through his father"? --] (]) 17:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
:::There are several theories on Skanderbeg's origin, that he had some Serbian, Greek, Macedonian etc origins. This is a similar case to those of many national heroes, and is closely linked with nationalism. A possible Serbian origin of his mother is widely supported among scholars, and I have given that theory most of weight in the stuff about Skanderbeg's mother on this article. On the other hand, a possible Serbian origin of the Kastrioti family has not wide support among scholars, and we are not to present every theory on this article. Otherwise, Tesla, Alexander the Great, Markos Botsaris articles would be a mess. Alternative views on the Kastrioti family's origin are present in relevant articles, if I am not mistaken. Cheers, ] (]) 17:46, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
:::: I am not shure if there is a "scientific consensus that Skanderbeg was of Serb origin through his father", but probably he had partial Slavic ancestry in his paternal and maternal lines, as well as Albanian and maybe even some Greek. ] (]) 17:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::Claims on some Greek origins of Skanderbeg are fringe and are supported only by some Greek nationalists and ], Greeks of Albanian ancestry many of whom believe that they are modern ]. From all theories on some non-Albainian origins of Skanderbeg, the one cliaming that his mother was a Serb has wide support among scholarship. ] (]) 18:02, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
::Firstly, Bulgarians never lived in Kosovo. Kosovo was populated mainly by Slavic tribes, read Constantine Porphyrogenitus. The tribes were probably Serbized by 12th century. Dude, it's not fair to compare Nikola Tesla who lived in 20th century and Skanderbeg who lived in 15th century. Milos Obilic can not be Albanian, because simple etymology, "Milos", which means "dear" and "(K)Obilic", he gained that surname through legend that he was born by a mare. '''There aren't even any primary sources that claims that he was Albanian.''' Here's the real signature of Skanderbeg that I found in Ragusa's archives, where he clearly knew Serbian language. Sorry for being barbaric and angry and starting war edits. '''I now just want you to give me any primary source that he was Albanian, so we should we start debate that should we put Serbian origin theory or not.''' ] (]) 01:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
]
] from ], 1st Edition, Leipzig 1881.]]
:::Secondly, Kosovo was ceded from the Byzantine Empire to the First Bulgarian Empire circa 840 and remain part from it until circa 1015. The development of Old Church Slavonic literacy in the country and the acceptation of Orthodoxy, had the effect of preventing the assimilation of the South Slavs into neighboring cultures, which promoted the formation of a distinct Bulgarian identity. As result the numerous Slavic tribes in that broad area from the Danube to the north, to the Aegean Sea to the south, and from the Adriatic Sea to the west, to the Black Sea to the east, accepted the common ethnonym "Bulgarians". During the 9th. century the Bulgarians established a form of national identity that despite far from modern nationalism, helped them to survive as a distinct entity through the centuries. After 1015 till the end of the 12th. century Kosovo was part from a Byzantine province called ]. Kosovo was also occasionally part from the Second Bulgarian Empire during 13th. century. The Serbs ruled over it during the 14th century. Afterwards followed 500 years Ottoman rule. By the way, ] who wrote during the 15th. century the biography of Skanderbeg, when talking about the inhabitants of the area where he was born, calls them "Bulgarians". With the rise of modern nationalism during the 19th. century Western and Russian ethnographers often displayed on their maps or described the southern parts of Kosovo's Slavic population as ''Bulgarian''. It was part of the ] at that time. For example, the second man into the hierarchy of the ] then - ], was from Kosovo. More, an article published in the Belgian magazine Ons Volk Ontwaakt (Our Nation Awakes) on 21 December 1912 estimated 827,100 inhabitants in the Vilajet of Kosovo from whom: Christian Bulgarians - 250,000; Muslim Bulgarians - 14,000; Orthodox Serbs - 113,000; Mixed (Bulgarian-Serbian) - 22,000. By the way, there are still some Slavs who retained their ] sentiments. In May 2018, about 500 of them have filed a petition in the country's parliament demanding official recognition of the Bulgarian community here. Stop pushing biased info. Thanks. ] (]) 05:03, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::250,000 Muslim Bulgarians??? I just wonder where they have went after 10 years. Yeah, Bulgarian Empire controlled eastern Kosovo, while Serbia western, the border was near the city Drsnik. The Bulgaria theme map isn't right, there is no Duklja, there are no sources that Bulgaria theme even had Kosovo in the article also owner of that map even said that it's not accurate. Cite me where Marlin Barleti said that Skanderbeg was Bulgarian. So what if that Dimitar Obshti was from Kosovo? That doesn't prove anything. Bulgarophiles is a term used for people from region of Macedonia and region of Pomoravlje, but where is Kosovo? Not even true that Bulgarians had Please check facts friend. ] (]) 11:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
]
:::::Please, write and read more carefully! ''Christian Bulgarians - 250,000;'' Muslim Bulgarians - 14,000. Thank you. ] (]) 11:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::Sorry Slavic bro, haven't saw it, but where they went after 10 years? ] (]) 11:37, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::Please, check the ]. Especially p. 158. Those who declared themselves as Bulgarians were, harassed or deported. The high clergymen of Bulgarian Orthodox Church were also deported. Bulgarian schools were closed and teachers expelled. All the Slavic population not depending on its identity was forced to declare as Serbs. Those who refused were tortured. The International Commission concluded that the Serbian state started a wide sociological experiment of assimilation through terror in its new territories. ] (]) 11:54, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::: That's Macedonia, we are talking about western Kosovo. ] (]) 12:09, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
]
::::::::: Citation from the report on the Serbs: "''They have not merely resumed possession of their ancient domain, the Sandjak of Novi-Bazar and Old Servia proper (Kosovo Pole and Metohia), despite the fact that this historic domain was strongly Albanian; they have not merely added thereto the tract described by patriotic Servian ethnographers as "Enlarged Old Servia" (an ancient geographical term which we have seen twice enlarged).''" The second map is a Serbian map from the mid. of the 19th. century. This map had been put together according to Serbian authors. Per this map, there is revealed the area where Serbian language is spoken and Serbs lived then. It stretches approximately northwest from the line: Prizren-Pristina-Prokuplje-Nis. East from that line, there were no Serbs. ] (]) 12:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::: So, you are telling me that Serbs never lived in Kosovo in 15th century? ] (]) 12:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::No way. Firstly ethnic Serbs settled the area at the end of the 12th century, but look above. You are claiming that Bulgarians never lived in Kosovo, provided that the area was ceded to Bulgaria in the mid. of the 9th. century and there are still thousands of people with Bulgarian identity. ] (]) 13:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::No brother, I haven't said or thought that, Bulgarians may Bulgarized Slavic tribes in Kosovo, but in eastern Kosovo, not western, because western was under Serbian control from circa 780 when Viseslav united all Serbian tribes, but Simeon conqured Serbia in circa 927, and then western Kosovo was in Serbian control again circa 931, when Caslav came and reunited all Serbian tribes, then in 969 western Kosovo became part of Byzantium theme of Serbia. In 1081 Constantine Bodin (known in your history as Tsar Peter III), probably conqured western Kosovo and give it to Vukan. Stefan Nemanja conquered all Kosovo in 1183 and Kosovo was under Serbian control until 15th century. ] (]) 13:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::Bulgarians controlled Kosovo for some centuries. In the 15th century the population of Kosovo was mixed, it consisted of Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Italians. The local dialect of ] is a mixture of Albanian, Serbian, Turkish and Bulgarian languages, and Orahovac is in western Kosovo. Even today there are people of Bulgarian origin in Albania, next to its border with Kosovo. ] (]) 13:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Yeah, but Serbs were a big majority at that time. Look at this article ]. Also, his great grandfather's name was Branilo/Branko, which is used mainly by Serbs and Croats, not Bulgarians. ] (]) 13:41, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Academics debate whether the said Branilo was Skanderbeg's ancestor. Furthermore, the origin of a name is irrelevant. Many non-Serbs in the Balkans of that time had Serbian names. Even today many placenames in Greece and Albania have Slavic origin. Are Greeks and Albanians Slavic nations? No. ] (]) 13:55, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::None of said here is enough to eliminate a widely known idea Skanderbeg was Serb/Serb origin, and Antidiskriminator post is the one I support here. ] (]) 14:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::: I think that there is such theory: {{Find sources|Skanderbeg Serb origin}} but it is far from widely known idea. Among the most reliable search engines as ], ] and ] the result is '''= 0'''. ] (]) 14:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::I hope you looked at the demographics article. Okay then, I will put it through article, as seeing people supporting it. ] (]) 14:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::The theory that Skanderbeg's mother had Serbian origin is on the article. It is supported by a considerable number of academics. The theory that Skanderbeg's father had Serbian origin does not have considerable support by academics. It is part of discussions about Albanians-Serbs conflict, and ways how the two groups have helped each other. It has a political context. Hence we are not going to present every theory here. The matter is explained on relevant articles. Cheers, ] (]) 14:36, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::Dude, I haven't made that sentences, I found them on Misplaced Pages. Yeah we will not put a Skenderbeg theory on Skenderbeg's article, better find other one. Yeah, maybe Albanian academics. ] (]) 14:43, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::Yes, well there has been some past editors who have pushed fringe theories popular only in ] on Misplaced Pages, people are lazy about cleaning it up, and I suppose this is the result. A good number of them are banned now, though I know at least one is socking but pulling an SPI on him is just not worth it right now. The guy fought and gave his life for a land called "Albania". That makes him ''Albanian''. Yes he had some Slavic ancestry. This is already covered on the page, but that's not enough for you -- and what's shocking is that I guess Albanian-Serb fights aren't enough, as you even go into denialism about Bulgaria's long and significant history in the Western Balkans and indeed the significant historical presence of ethnic Bulgarians in the area. Enough. Contribute constructively or don't. --] (]) 15:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::Check MilosHaran's edits. They have tried today to push a POV that there was no Bosnian identity in the Middle Ages. ] (]) 15:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::: {{reply to|Jingiby}} Antonina Zhelyazkova mentions a Venetian source where Scanderbeg's mother is considered Bulgarian and not Serbian. "It is a curious circumstance that Skanderbeg's mother was a Slav woman, according to some sources a Bulgarian named Voisava, a fact recorded in an anonymous Venetian chronicle: "Huic uxor fuit Voisava, Pologi Domini filia, est autem Pologum oppidum in Macedoniae et Bulgarie confinibus" <ref>{{Cite web|url=http://pdc.ceu.hu/archive/00003852/01/Albanian_Identities.pdf|title=Albanian Identities|last=|first=|date=|website=|archive-url=|archive-date=|dead-url=|access-date=}}</ref> ] (]) 16:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
" ''The guy fought and gave his life for a land called "Albania". That makes him ''Albanian''''."
What reliable source back this claim? ] (]) 16:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:: Re FkpCascais, actually it's not necessary for me to provide sources for things I say only on talk pages-- otherwise I might be asking you for a source for your claim that "it's widely known that Skanderbeg was Serb/Serb origin" (check your grammar there bro). "Widely known" maybe by the readers of ] which among other things calls Croats "Catholicized Serbs", pretends Bosniaks never existed, pretends Albanians never existed, and ignores Bulgarian history in the Western Balkans. Also re the "personal" comment, no actually I'm not even from the Balkans but let's ] here, but even to me it is plain as day that the sole reason for this is provoking Albanians (is he a matter of great importance to Serbia? No, not really...). It's not acceptable, and if you lower yourself to this standard, don't be surprised by the result.--] (]) 16:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

{{od}} I am persuaded by Vargmali's source. Marin Barleti is his writing mentioned a Bulgarian tribe is Dibra area.<ref name="Sulstarova2006">{{cite book|author=Enis Sulstarova|title=Arratisje Nga Lindja: Orientalizmi Shqiptar Nga Naimi Te Kadareja|date=March 2006|publisher=Globic Press|isbn=9780977666249|p=45}}</ref> I think we should make changes to reflect ]. ] (]) 16:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::Also, the link of his family with Serbian empire is totally omissed in the article, whys? Starting to being sources:
::* page 246 and 247. ] (]) 16:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::* by Ramón Máiz, ‎Safran William - 2014, page , says "''This force was ledby John Kastrioti, who was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin and whose son, Skenderbeg, was'' ..."
:::There are a lot of Bulgarian sources, some of them reliable, claiming his mother was a . ] (]) 16:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::Of couse, we shouyld mention in the article that Bulgarian sources claim Voisava as Bulgarian. ] (]) 16:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::By the way, those views are in fact maybe a ]? ] (]) 16:41, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::'''. Let see what will you say on this. :) ] (]) 16:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::: Congrats, you found a source from 1943, 1905, and the 1870s, and then one that looks like it was written maybe centuries ago(?) and uploaded them on Imgur. ]--] (]) 16:59, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::: Of course my friend. Here is photo of the page of written by Italian scholar ], who lived 1 century later.] (]) 17:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::: ]. --] (]) 17:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::: Okay, here's on . I don't see why he is not reliable, he even studied law at the universities of Padua and Bologna. ] (]) 17:30, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::The addition of the view that the "Triballi" were Bulgarians is in accordance with ]. The view that Voisava was a member of Muzaka family should also be added. @MilosHaran Read ] and do not use old sources published centuries ago. ] (]) 17:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::Why? A man who lived 1 century after isn't reliable, did he even had a reason to lie? Why is then Marin Barleti reliable? OK then, here are the newer sources: and here's of other sources. ] (]) 17:50, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::: In "Problems of the Formation of the Albanian People, Their Language, and Culture: (selection) issued by Akademia e Shkencave e RPS të Shqipërisë, "8 Nëntori" Publishing House, 1984 on p. 329 is explained that Martin Barletty calls the Slavs «Illyrians» and the Bulgarians «Tribalis» (). ] (]) 17:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::(edit conflict) @MilosHaran You should read the said policies before getting involved in topics that seem to be difficult for you. That there is a theory that Skanderbeg had Serbian origin (from his mother) is showed on the article. Read ], ], ]. ] (]) 18:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::But I want to prove that theory for his father exists too. For WP:Undue and WP:NPOV I have sent non-Serbian sources so I don't see any reason to they broke neutral viewpoint. I don't see which rule I broke on WP:Primary. ] (]) 18:14, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Did you read those policies entirely? Do you understand them now? There are theories that Skanderbeg had Greek, Turkish and Macedonian origin. They, similarily to the theory that his father had Serbian origin, do not have considerable acceptance. The article should reflect only what is generally accepted as viable theory. ] (]) 18:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::This dispute has gone on for years long before any of us ever edited. The result is always the same. Some sources say Skanderbeg had some Serbian origins. Others say he was completely Albanian (yes). Some sources say he was Greek, Bulgarian, whatever. Welcome to the Balkans where people have nothing better to do than claim each other's national heroes. This page is not changing to say we know for a fact he was a Serb, just as we are not changing Markos Botsaris to say he was Albanian, or Nikola Tesla and et cetera. You said you can be a constructive editor on the other talk page under your topic "Bosnian identity did not exist" (ahem). If that's true, then quit wasting our time and your own time too here. --] (]) 18:21, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::@Jingiby So what? Serbs were also called Triballi in history. The first Serbian king Mihailo Vojislavljevic had title "King of Serbs and Triballs", Niketas Choniates called also Serbs Triballi. Mehmed the Conqueror in his looting of Serbia mentions Triballs as Serbs. Demetrios Chalkokondyles also calls Serbs Triballs, even flag of the First Serbian uprising has symbol of Triballs. ] (]) 18:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::: What about: ''Bulgarians never lived in Kosovo''? Stop nonsensic claims, please. Full stop for now. ] (]) 18:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::: '''I HAVEN'T SAID THAT BULGARIANS HAVEN'T LIVED IN KOSOVO'''. Here are the sources for Serbs called Triballs: , for second one I couldn't find it on the internet, but it's C. Paparrigopoulos History of the Greek nation, Athens, 1874, vol. 5, p. 489. And for the page 120. You can check for the First Serbian uprising flag on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 18:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::: Actually, you '''did say ]'''. It's one thing to lie, it's another thing to lie when the evidence of the falsehood is right in front of our faces.--] (]) 16:03, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Jingby, ] ´s are more associated to Serbs than to Bulgarians.
Milos, the best sources are the secundary sources from scholars. A secundary source from a historian analising some primary source has much more value than primary source being interpretd by ourselves. Just for you to know. ] (]) 19:36, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

There is enough information here or to any knowledgable person to permanently dispute this article factual accuracy. Please do not remove desputed untill you prove the claims in article with reliable sources (cannot be done obviously, simply because this can be clasified as 'fake history (fake news..)). ] (]) 16:15, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

== Albanian editors dismissed IP concerns ==

... however, just looking for the collection of sources gathered , looks like the concerns were legit. ] (]) 21:20, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:Random blogs are now ''legit'' sources? Misplaced Pages policy has not changed. Editing on ] issues does not suffice. Please consult ] before supporting the ramblings of an IP.] (]) 21:23, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
::I know more then well what reliable sources are. But the content at that blog can be checked, and it is right, and they are reliable sources. I can go and post them here one by one obviously. ] (]) 22:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
::::I'm not the one supporting the ramblings of an IP, then citing a blog to back a position. Blogs are not reliable sources. I should also state to you calling editors "Albanian" is not needed. People can be whatever origin or descent they wish, that should not be part of any any discussion. ] (]) 22:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::Who is talking about blogs? I am talking about the sources cited at that blog. I thought you were wise enough to uderstand that. (<small>Did I ever added a blog to an article as a source? Never obviously</small>). Forget the blog, focus on the sources cited there. The blog is just usefull couse it has links to them, all in one page. ] (]) 22:15, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::About the edit your colleague was blindly reverting me immediatelly in less then a minute, well, I understand for you is helpfull to leave an idea that ther are people who claim his origin was something else than Albanian, and put them all in same bag, but the fact is that having plenty of reliable sources claiming his Serbian origin cannot be equalised to one local Bulgarian source claiming he was Bulgarian origin. This situations have separated sources sourcing each claim. ] (]) 22:22, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::Your back tracking. You never said anything about sources in a blog. You just placed a link to a blog. Also if your going to make edits, why not use the sources yourself instead of calling editors you have disagreements as "Albanian" (what a person's origin may or may not be ought to be excluded), then agreeing with an IP who comments where removed as they are sock and then palcing a blog and your reason. Disappointing, just disappointing. {{u|FkpCascais}} please strikeout your comment about someone being my colleague. Your are not attempting to build good faith and continuing to show ] behavoir.] (]) 22:25, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::Looking at FkpCascais' additions there are problems. The first is his addition of Theodōros Spandouginos . The source is a English translation of a Greek medaevil text from the 1530s. That is ] and ]. Please especially on things like this about origin, RS sources that are ] for neutrality purposes. The second source that was added by Waltz does not refer to Skanderbeg as Serbian, but only mentions the Serb factor in Alb history at that point in time. So its an OR addition to the article.] (]) 22:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::{{u|Resnjari}} I concur. I also find ] and violations of ] to be problematic. --] (]) 23:40, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{u|Calthinus}}, the editor @FkpCascais said in their edit "And dont remove sources". Thoughts?] (]) 23:55, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::Maybe we can replace it with "Guerrilla Warfare: A Historical and Critical Study" page 15. ] (]) 00:06, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::Please feel free to add the sources to each claim. But the two are completelly separate claims, Serbian or Bulgarian are two totally different things. ] (]) 23:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::Also, please notece how I have sources which claim he was of Serbian descent (without doubt), and I didn´t removed the word "possible" (leaving doubts). I am being carefull and not adopting clear POV´s. ] (]) 23:59, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{u|FkpCascais}} why are we going to added sources for "each claim" especially when they are ] or don't have to do the the subject of origins etc. Clearly your second edit does not refer to origins. Your first edit uses a source that is over 500 years old. Both ought not to be there.] (]) 23:55, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::Because they directly refer to the origin of Skanderbeg. ] (]) 23:59, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::You may think that you are not "adopting clear POVs" but {{u|Resnjari}} is correct that there seems to be one set of rules applied to Serbian arguments versus Bulgarian ], and one side has you deleting sources, and the other one, adding more text for each... Serbian origin arguments should not get any more space than Bulgarian ones, for starters.--] (]) 00:15, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Exactly. So lets expand each on its own with their own sources. Thanks. ] (]) 00:24, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::But please, bring academic, non-local, meaning non-Albanian, Serbian or Bulgarian sources, for the claims. How many you have for Bulgarian origin in that case? But if you want, we can use local sources and turn this into a mess, cause, want me to bring Serbian historians? ] (]) 00:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::{{u|FkpCascais}}, both of edits ought to be removed for reasons outlined. However you do make a point about other such sources and i'm ok with that on this bit. For the Voisava sentence, other sources for removal should be the http://www.makedonika.org source by Petrovski from the sentence as it does not meet ]. I'm not fussed over the Bulgarian source either way. Others though, don't know.] (]) 00:40, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::The edits cannot be returned to the state that the article was simply because there are no sources claiming Skanderbeg was bossibly of Serbian or Bulgarian descent. No source claims that. There are plenty of sources claiming he was of Serbian descent, and a few claiming Bulgarian descent. But those two things are very different, and no sources claim both simultaneously as (wrongly) added in the text earlier. Each claim is separate and should be sourced by the sources that claim it, as none of cited sourced the pevious text which implied he was either one or another, as claimed before. ] (]) 00:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::I am an honest and direct person. And I see your game here. You want to add together one fringe theory (about him being Bulgarian) with one quite plausible one (being Serbian, which is backed by many sources) so you can disregard both that way as fringe. I disagree obviously, and if you are honest, you will all undestand why. ] (]) 00:57, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::{{u|FkpCascais}}, can you please withdraw your remarks and assumptions you have made about me. You should consult ]. Your sources are based on wp:primary and wp:or. On the Bulgarian source, i am not fussed about it either way. Using your logic, Petrovski would also have to go.] (]) 01:07, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::No problem, it can go, there will be still plenty of sources claiming his possible/certain Serbian origin, while Bulgarian origin would be just a fringe theory. Lets gather sources in both ways and see what the outcome would be. ] (]) 01:20, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::{{u|FkpCascais}}, you refer to gathering sources. What you do in your time is your business. What i do care is that the two additions of yours currently in the article are based on wp:primary and original research on a sentence which discusses Voisava.] (]) 04:53, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

== Open question ==

In a totally unseen manner I want to adress you ], ] and ] in all my respect. I will ask you one sincere question and I want you to erase it after reading it, if you feel so. The question is obviously about Skanderbeg. Here it goes:

How would you feel if you had an historical figure that existed in Serbia and was named Etrit, had brothers named Arlind, Amir and Arber, and sisters named Arbnora, Kujtime, Arbiona, Ana and Vera? That he was initially of Albanian Muslim faith, and that his grand-father faught for the Albanian medieval kingdom? That all his letters were written in Albanian or Latin, and that he fought Greeks which were Albanian enemies at the time (supposing so)? How woud you feel if this person was made-out as Serbian national hero, and nowadays all relation of him to Albania or Albanians was denied despite all obvious evidence? Oh, but he is not Etrit, he is Retrito, he is Napolitanian (some Napolitanian and fringe authors say so). Thus, his Albanian origin becomes confusing. Lets stick that he is Serbian.

Please delete this after reading. But just to make you know, I am against this modern-day tendency of showing like if Serbs and Albanians have some historical animosity. We dont. We were friends troughout the history and it was only at early 20th century that Vatican and Austria needed to prevent Serbia to access sea that they made us fight eachother. The truth is that we are brothers and we coexisted for long.

The white and the black double-headed eagle are two faces of one same coin. ] (]) 01:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
:Firstly, to clarify, not all of us are Albanians. Anyways, Idk what Resnjari and Calthinus think but I am telling you sth. Some Albanians love to point out that many of Greek heroes (Botsaris etc) had Albanian origin. However, those heroes belong to Greece, as they contributed as leaders of Greece, not of Albania. Claiming the hero or heroes of another nation is a waste of time. Bonaparte served French interests, Stalin (from Georgia) served Russian interests etc. Anyhow, nobody is denying that Skanderbeg's mother was probably a Serb, the concern is that all theories should be given space on the article. In the end, Skanderbeg was an Albanian leader whose bravery benefited the entire Balkans and wider Europe, Serbs included. After all, Skanderbeg's army included Albanians, Italians, Serbs, Vlachs etc. ] (]) 02:22, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::{{u|FkpCascais}}, don't really care as many of these figures are found in the Balkans of any religion, linguistic or ethnic background etc. Origins differ from their personal self identification and vice versa. @Ktrimi has said it better then i could ever had. What i do care is that content added to this article is of encyclopedic standards. I am not in the camp that denies Skanderbeg had Slavic ancestry at least on his maternal side (Schmitt has done good work on this that goes beyond nationalistic Balkan academia). His origin on his maternal side does not defacto make him a Slav of either Serb or Bulgarian identity.] (]) 04:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
:::] had Bulgarian mother and Bulgarian wife, was an Emperor of Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks and Albanians but is part of the Serbian history. ] (]) 06:12, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::{{u|Jingiby}} very good to point out. I might add that, thankfully, I have not seen even the most nationalistic Bulgarian editors pushing a campaign to rebrand Dushan as a Bulgarian. Thank goodness. As for me, {{u|FkpCascais}}, it seems you didn't get the memo that I"m not Albanian. Also it doesn't matter to me -- what does matter to me is a year long now campaign by a sockpuppeteer, with unfortunate assistance and approval from some established editors who happen to focus on Serbian topics, to provoke Albanian editors with this tribalistic nonsense.--] (]) 06:36, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::More, his son ] is 3/4 Bulgarian and in this way, Serbia had ''de facto'' Bulgarian ruler. ] (]) 07:47, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::So everything Serbian is Bulgarian? No. We need sources like the Bulgarian one that associate directly Skanderbeg with Bulgarian origin, not trough SYNTH. ] (]) 15:54, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::Um yes, we already have those on the page... multiple. And you removed info sourced to them. What is ] is not up to you to decide. What is disturbing instead is that Bulgarian claims even where sources are provided are called fringe, where Serbian ones are being treated as true. --] (]) 20:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::I agree {{u|Calthinus}}. @FkpCascais keeps making their comments based more on ] then anything else. Its time to revert to the stable version before @FkpCascais made their edits as there is no consensus for them.] (]) 20:28, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::What did I remove? ] (]) 01:21, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::]. Which was cited by an RS. You then added a sentence about how Strazhimir Dimitrov (an obvious Bulgar name) ]s a Bulgarian origin, thus making Bulgarian claims sound fringe while Serbian ones sound true.--] (]) 15:39, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::Can we just revert to the stable version? Its clear that edits made by @FkpCascais were based on ] with one and ] with the other.] (]) 22:30, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::No. Please add sources for each claim separatelly. Serbian or Bulgarian descent are NOT the same. No source claims both as it was written, so it was wrong. The previous sentence had no source at all. Add only sourced claims. ] (]) 23:22, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::I don´t have time tonight, but just by taking a look at a serch I saw plenty of sources claiming Serbian origin, while Bulgarian seems to be backed just by 2, both local sources btw. Quite a difference. ] (]) 23:25, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::The the discussion about other sentence is different to the additions you made. Your first addition uses a translated source from 500 years ago and the second addition is based on a source that refers to something other then origins (hence an OR addition). These should be removed. Multiple editors here have expressed concerns with these edits and there is no consensus.] (]) 23:44, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::OK, I will bring sources and we´ll choose the best ones. ] (]) 23:51, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::If you want to bring something else for the article and start a discussion here first which is fine, but your previous two edits to the article need to be removed. Ad nauseam now editors have outlined the issues around them.] (]) 00:24, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::Leave the two claims separated. No source says "he was Serbian or Bulgarian origin". That is false. The two claims are made separatedly and have different sources each one. Your "putting them together" is POV-pushing. ] (]) 00:51, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::You can discuss that on a new thread if you want to split the sentence. Ping the others. But your current two additions have issues for the reasons already outlined. They need to be removed.] (]) 01:02, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::You can´t add unsourced content. Add what is sourced with its proper sources to each claim. Why is so hard this for you? You have an agenda for wanting to put it together, don´t you? You clearly want to diminish claims of Serbian origin by mixing them with another obscure claim, that way removing cerdibility. You aer being a POV-pusher. Add content in a right way, don´t add unsourced claims. ] (]) 01:07, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::You do not get to decide which claim is obscure. Sources do. End of story.--] (]) 05:10, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::I dont care about your personal disapointments, I presented plenty of sources and I will keep on presenting them. You dislike what they say, I know it, that is why you are disapointed. ] (]) 00:24, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

== Skanderbeg origin, sources ==

Ever since a group of pro-Albanian editors took control over the article against ], other editors have been strugling to edit and expand the article. Instances of such behavior can be observed in their inflexibility to accept changes backed by ]. The problem is even greater giving the fact that the vesion they wrote and they prevent editors from changing or expanding, is unsouced. For someone fom outside things may not be clear, but, we are facing clear Albanian-POV pushing in which they tend to marginalise and gather all together all different theories of Skanderbeg origin, that way discrediting them all.

is absolutelly unecceptable. Not only restores an unsourced claim (not even one source claims Skanderbeg was "possibly of Serbian or Bulgaian origin") but also prevents expanding each claim by itself.

Another, quite contentious aspect, is their addition of "possibly",. which is wrong, because most sources, as least for the Serbian origin claim, don´t use the expression of "possibility" neither any other expressing doubts. Lets see some of the sources backing up Skanderbegs Serbian origin theory:

* by Francis Stevenson, citarion: "'''Skanderber himself, as has been seen - Skanderbergthe national hero of the Albanians, was of Serb origin.'''"

* by Theodōros Spandouginos, page 47. Citation: "'''For some years it has been ruled by by Skanderbeg, a most valiant man of Serbian oigin'''."]

* by Ramón Máiz and Safran William, citation: "'''This force was led by John Kastrioti, who was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin, and whose son, Skenderbeg, was venerated by Albanians at the time were Christian and their solidarity with the Serbs was not difficult to comprehend'''."

* by balcanicaucaso.org, citation: " '''Skanderbeg, the greatest Albanian hero, is the perfect example of this – his father was from Albanian family Castriot, while his mother Vojislava was of Serbian origin; his older brother was Sinisha, which is a Serbian or, to be more accurate, Slavic name'''."

* by Marko Miljanov Popovich, page 59, citation: "'''George Kastriota (Skanderbeg), (1404–1468) an Orthodox Christian ruler of Albania. His father, John Kastriota (of the Serbian origin), led the'''..."

* by Walter Yust, 1952, page 762, citation: "'''(Skanderbeg) out wearing a royal crown, was of Serbian origin. The founder of the family of Castriota was a certan Branilo, who was governor of Kanina in 1368, and whose gandson, Giovani lord of Mat and Vumenestia, married Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate.'''"

* - Volume 8; Volume 24 - Page 878, pblished 1998, citation: "'''...son of John Kastrioti (Castriota), a high official of Serbian origin, and his given name was George.'''"

These are just some of the first results I am finding and all in English. Would you now be kind and revert yourself so we can properly expand Serbian origin part? ] (]) 21:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:ok {{u|FkpCascais}} once again Spandouginos is ] and so is Miljanov. Both sources are old with the first being some 500 years old and the second over a hundred years old. In those cases ]. Britannica and Americana are ] etc and most articles contain content based on ]. Please this is not some thing about ].] (]) 22:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

:How is that Spandouginos is primary source? I don´t see at his book any citation quotes which would means he is refering to some old text of someone elses words. About the rest, in one way or another, they do say the same, which is Skanderbeg has Serbian origin. We are not strict to use just nowadays sources. Anyway, I will keep on bringing sources. ] (]) 22:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::Going by your comment I'm getting this vibe that you haven't had a good look at some of the sources your using. With Spandouginos, p.iii.. Its clearly stated its a translation of a text from some 500 years ago etc. Please desist for the time being as your going into ] territory.] (]) 22:24, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

More sources:

* by Ivo Vukcevich, page 246, citation: "'''According to some sources, great-grandfather, Branilo Castriot, was a Serb (dórigine Serbe) in the company of Serbs. .... It is a matter of record that thee Castrior estates in Albania can be traced to Skanderbeg´s gandfather , Pal, who receved his estates from Serbian Emperir Dushan in 1345.'''"

Mu friend, I am adding sourced material which is missing. I will bring much more. ] (]) 22:37, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::{{u|FkpCascais}} your just confriming more and more that your not having a proper look the sources your using. Your latest addition based on Ivo Vukcevich is a self published source (]) done through Xlibris. Misplaced Pages does not allow for use of publications that are self published.] (]) 22:54, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

* by Komnen Bećirović, pages 8, 9, citation:"... '''sur le origine serbe de George Castriote, dit Skanderbeg''',..." ] (]) 22:58, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::I'm very concerned on the way your going about things here. Editors have expressed multiple concerns with the sources used, and you have repeatedly put them back and then added more problematic sources into the article. Please desist. The editing is going into ] and ] territory. I have engaged you in good faith and its very disappointing seeing all this.] (]) 23:08, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:::I am also very concern that what you call "editors" is just the 3 of you Albanians who happened team-tag and OWN articles. It is time to end this. I will keep on bringing sources cause WP:RS and WP:Verifiability is all that matters. ] (]) 23:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::::{{u|FkpCascais}} again why are you resorting to personal attacks. Whatever a person's ethnic heritage or origin maybe that should not be part of any discussion here. Please stop with this. Show good faith.] (]) 23:29, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::At begining I had all good-faith, also because I have great Albanian friends in personal life. But you make me loose it when I see that here at Misplaced Pages tha tactic that you use is to make endless objections at talk-page in order to leave some info you dislike out of the article. You tried to disrgard Skandebeg Serbian origin theories by minimasing them and equalising them to some considerably lower in impotance origin theories such as the Bulgarian one. You should have shown good-faith when I asked you to respect WP rules and separate the two claims cause no source claimed both simultaneously, while all claim either one or another, You did it to prevent expanding the Serbian origin claim, as you still do. And, as you can see, there are plenty of sources for it. ] (]) 23:38, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::{{u|FkpCascais}} how many Albanian friends you have is not something that any editor asked you and not a concern here. What is a concern is that you have rammed your edits into the article showing clear ] behavior when multiple concerns were raised by other editors about the sources you have used and the way you have gone about things. Its disappointing.] (]) 23:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::I also don´t care if you are disapointed or what, all I want is for us to make the best possible article based on reliable sources. ] (]) 23:55, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::{{u|FkpCascais}}, good. So show good faith and revert your additions that you have no consensus for and also use sources are problematic.] (]) 00:02, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::No, this state of article is certainly better than the previous, because the previous edit was unsourced and indicated total undue-weight regading the Serbian origin of Skanderbeg. I asked Deb for a sugestion, lets, wait. ] (]) 00:10, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::{{u|FkpCascais}}, your just showing more ] behavior. Again disappointing.] (]) 00:15, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
{{od}}
Per ]: to ] and structure an article so as to avoid ] and ] the common views of scholars should be consulted. In many historical topics, scholarship is divided, so several scholarly positions should be relied upon. Some people masquerading as scholars actually present ] views outside of the accepted practice, and these should not be used. To determine scholarly opinions about a historical topic, consult the following sources in order:
# Recent scholarly books and chapters on the historiography of the topic
# "Review Articles", or historiographical essays that explicitly discuss recent scholarship in an area.
# Similarly conference papers that were peer reviewed in full before publication that are field reviews or have as their central argument the historiography
# Journal articles or peer reviewed conference papers that open with a review of the historiography etc.
Per above mentioned classification: ], who is an expert of Albanian issues claims in his Historical Dictionary of Albania, Volume 75 of Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Second edition, published by Academic publisher ], recently (2010), ISBN 081087380X, p. 398 in the article on Skanderbeg himself:
:''Albanian prince and national hero. The real name of Scanderbeg (Alb. Skenderbej, def. Skenderbeu) was George Castriotta (Alb. Gjergj Kastrioti). George Castriotta came from a family of landowners from the Dibra region in northeastern Albania, who were no doubt of'' '''mixed Albanian-Slavic ancestry.'''
That is ] and meets the criteria above. ] (]) 07:50, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
::The problem is that the ammount of sources claiming Serbian (not generalistically "Slavic") ancestry is so significant that clearly deserves a mention. ] (]) 09:17, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
:::], I have checked the first 3 of them. The first one is called "A History of Montenegro" by Francis Stevenson. It was published for the first time more then 100 years ago and is out of date, i.e. not reliable source. The second book is written by Theodore Spandounes: "On the Origins of the Ottoman Emperors". Spandounes died in 1538, i.e. this book is totally out of date. The third one is the only reliable source: "Identity and Territorial Autonomy in Plural Societies" by Ramón Máiz and Safran William, and claims ''Kastrioti was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin'', that is as a whole in accordance with the article. ] (]) 10:16, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
::::Thank you. What about the others? ] (]) 10:20, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::Ok, ]. The next 3 sources are: '''1.''' What can Germans and French learn from Serbs and Albanians? by Aleksandar Pavlović, published on the research on-line magazine called OBC Transeuropa, i.e. it is reliable at some degree. ''It claims: Skanderbeg, the greatest Albanian hero... his father was from Albanian family Castriot, while his mother Vojislava was of Serbian origin;'' Simply the mixed origins story is confirmed. '''2.''' HONOR and HEROISM by ], who died on February 2, 1901. He is a Serbian author and the book was simply translated in English. I would say, it is somehow biased source, and out of date, i.e. not reliable. '''3.''' Encyclopædia Britannica: a new survey of universal knowledge by Walter Yust, 1952 edition. This source confirms the thesis on the Serbian origin of Skanderbeg. Nevertheless it is ca. 70 years old, that means this publication does not meet the criteria on recent scholarship mentioned above. ] (]) 10:55, 14 December 2018 (UTC)


== The islamic view ==
Can I suggest that a RfC is opened here. It pretty much looks there will be a snow closure, so this might be the simplest way to resolve this.] (]) 11:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
:Its time to revert to the stable version of the article before all the events of the past 24 hours. After that a discussion can resume about these things hopefully this time in good faith by all editors. Best.] (]) 19:28, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
::It's obvious that an essential part from the ] belongs to this article. I wonder why there is nothing in here yet. {{u|FkpCascais}} {{u|Jingiby}} {{u|Resnjari}} {{u|Antidiskriminator}} suggestions?] (]) 21:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
:::Do not ping FkpCascais as he is topic-banned. ] (]) 21:59, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
::::{{u|Alexikoua}}, unless this discussion is about a merger of the ] article into this one (and deletion of that article), we ain't creating forks all over the place. Also pinging {{u|Calthinus}} and {{u|Ktrimi991}} as they have been involved in the editing of this article. And do take @Ktrimi991's advice, don't ping topic banned editors, as they got themselves into enough trouble as it is with this page. They have had enough excitement for the day.] (]) 22:07, 14 December 2018 (UTC)


I see no consensus on the view of a "pure Albanian" in the LEAD. After all, how can a person be just "Albanian" when his mother is not, at a time that "Albanian" was not an official nationality, and when he never claimed that he is of certain ethnicity? I think the LEAD should reflect modern views on the man.--] (]) 12:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC) The article is almost exclusively presenting the western-albanian view on the subject. However, there is a good volume of islamic/ottoman historiography on Sk., claiming that the western is "propaganda". Of course the islamic historiography can also be characterized as "propaganda", but the spirit of WP is to present all views, so as to produce the famous "neutral p.o.v.". Would it be proper to open a section presenting the islamic (or pro-Ottoman / Turkish) point of view? ] (]) 19:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)


:Your point being? ] (]) 12:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
==Mediation==
There are so many souces backing his Serbian origin than your removal of sourced content about it is disruptive. I will open a mediation for this. ] (]) 09:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)


KOPAŃSKI, A. B. (1997). ISLAMIZATION OF ALBANIANS IN THE MIDDLE AGES: THE PRIMARY SOURCES AND THE PREDICAMENT OF THE MODERN HISTORIOGRAPHY. Islamic Studies, 36(2/3), 191–208. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23076194
== Any reason the Greek name is excluded? ==
* Ivan Kastrioti, serbo-albanian war lord (p. 195).
* The clans of southern and central Albanians refused to join Skanderbeg.
* Kastrioti and others received every year 1.400 golden ducats from the Pope.


:] on the first two. Gjon Kastrioti was most definitely not Serbo-Albanian, and some of the southern and central clans did indeed join Skanderbeg (e.g. Muzaka, Arianiti, Topia and smaller clans and groups). The last one may be true, I don't know the exact amount, but I think he did receive minimal financial aid from the Pope. Based on the fact that the paper calls Gjon Kastrioti a Serbo-Albanian warlord, the source shouldn't be used. Additionally, this isn't technically the Islamic/Ottoman view on anything - he was a Pole who converted to Islam during adulthood and was very religiously-biased in his work. ] (]) 04:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
First, I don't see why the name in other languages should be given first in Albanian. Did he ever write his name in Albanian? This form of name appeared about 2 centuries after his death.


::Of course this source can't be used, since it has been decided that the article must be an albanian fiction. However, if you read Karl Hopf, which is a source in the article, citing John Musachi, you may see that Skanderbeg was ''''per natura Serviano'''" (born Serbian). (Karl Hopf, Reise durch die Gebiete des Drin und Wardar, 1867 p. 303, citing J.Musaki (who claimed that his is relative of Sk's family):
On the other hand, the Greek form of his surname appeared in some important Greek chronicles, mainly that of Laonikos Chalkokondyles, his contemporary. Some other late byzantine chronicographs simply ignored him, because he was not as an important figure as some claimed later. We had to wait till late 20th c. the monumental work of Oliver Schimt to learn that Skanderbeg was only partly accepted in his country, never won a major battle, and never ruled a city. Anyway, for the learned readers of WP, the Greek name is important. Obviously the latin Georgius Castrioti is a transliteration from the Greek. I added for the moment the original text of Chalkokondyles, and soon I will add some more modern sources citing the greek text of Chalkokondyles. Unfortunatelly, it is not easy to find a modern non-greek publication that cites the name in greek letters. This is one of the cases where the "primary sources" have to be used. We don't use any info from Chalkokondyles, other than the wording of the name, and this is not a problem. Regretably, some friends here insist on a pro-albanian POV and anti-slavic and anti-greek polemic.--] (]) 10:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
"''Perche in Albania era entrato Scanderbeg uomo valente e per natura Serviano''" . Have a nice day.


:::Have you actually read Gjon Muzaka’s work? I’m pretty certain it’s free to read online. ] (]) 07:27, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
Greeks are funny people ;D <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:26, 30 January 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::''Per natura Serviano'', means "of a Serbian nature", or "Serbian character, disposition" (he was very tall, as Giuseppe Valentini has shown). Please do not distort the sources, or give them a meaning they do not have. If someone wanted to write ''born Serbian'' he would had used ''nato Serviano'' instead; please refer to . ] (]) 00:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)


Thanks for the above. Otherwise some could think that anti-hellenism is only in my imagination.--] (]) 09:21, 31 January 2019 (UTC) ::I was searching for "Gjon" + "Muzaka" but it didn't find anything. Can you paste the link here, please? However, I found Marinus Barletius' book and he doesn't mention any "Albanian" Georgius Castriotus. It doesn't even say that he was born somewhere in Albania.--] (]) 16:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
:A: "They're against me!" B: "Don't be silly!" A: "You see! He called me silly!" --] (]) 00:07, 1 February 2019 (UTC)


::Jokes aside, the memoirs of Giovanni Musachi is here, published by K. Hopf. Starts from p. 270. The "natura Serviano" is in p. 334. . Of course it's free.
Any opinion on the topic? The name in Greek should be there or not, and why?--] (]) 12:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
::The Albanian name is in there because the figure of Skanderbeg is associated with Albania and Albanians. Unless you have not read the whole article, then this thread is the result.] (]) 18:16, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


::: Here you go - https://books.google.com/books/about/Early_Albania.html?id=_sHmTRCEe7kC - nowhere does it say in John’s original work that which you put above. Not only is Karl Hopf outdated, but he is incorrect in what he is saying. ] (]) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
:This or similar questions are frequently asked by multiple editors for many years and deserve a proper reply based on consensus grounded in wikipedia rules. I have never seen such reply. I think nobody has ever presented a single convincing argument or criteria to add Sk's name on Albanian language into lede but not on Serbian or Greek language. Nine years ago there was a discussion about inclusion of Sk's name on Serbian or Greek language in the lede (]). At that time a small group of editors made up seven unconvincing specific and mutually exclusive and contradicting POV rules why Sk's name on Albanian language should be added to the lede and why Serbian and Greek language names should not. It might be a good idea to prepare some kind of Matrix with different langague names and arguments to determine the correct answer what language name should be present in the lede.--] (]) 16:41, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
::This goes to same for you too. The Albanian name is in there because the figure of Skanderbeg is associated with Albania and Albanians. Unless you have not read the whole article, then this thread is the result.] (]) 18:16, 4 February 2019 (UTC) :::Karl Hopf has been accused of making a mess of his genealogies, or misreading documents, but I assure you he is not outdated. ] (]) 00:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
::::Karl Hopf’s work from '''1867''' is outdated when it comes to the ethnicity of Skanderbeg’s family. We have much more recent sources that clearly state his paternal side was purely Albanian. ] (]) 01:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
:::Only after Myth of Skanderbeg was created about 100 years ago. On the other hand, George was associated with Slavs and their resistance to Ottomans centuries before 19th century Albanian nationalists decided to create Albanian nationalistic myth of poor Ђурађ. Still, thank you for unconvincing, specific, mutually exclusive and contradicting POV rules number eight ({{tq|associated with Albania and Albanians}}) and nine ({{tq|read the whole article}}). I will create a matrix and present it here as soon as I have some more time.--] (]) 20:34, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
:::::Karl Hopf published a documentary collection, called ''Chroniques gréco-romaines'', which as the name precisely states, is a collection of Greek-Roman chronicles; among these chronicles is the ''Breve Memoria'', or "Short Memoir" of Giovanni Musachi. Now, which part of Giovanni Musachi is outdated? I'm not sure if you are familiar with this work, of which you paste a link that shows what, precisely? ] (]) 17:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::You forget that Skanderbeg associated with the Arberesh community. They where Albanians (which included most of the Albanian aristocracy and other elite and a sizable chuck of the population) who fled while he was alive and after he died to southern Italy to escape the Ottoman wars and later conquest. The association has been with Albanians for a very long time. If you want to get specific about which Albanian communities kept his memory alive or was relevant to them, that's a different matter. Of course in the Balkans it was a different reality where his memory was forgotten and later reimported via the Arberesh during the Albanian national Awakening as a national symbol to generate unity etc. Among the Slavs he was a anti-Ottoman symbol for a time, they didn't bother to stick with him interestingly though like all the other types like in the nationalistic Kosovo Myth etc.] (]) 21:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
::::::A link to the up-to-date translation in a book by a Robert Elsie. ] (]) 20:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yes, Slavs indeed associated themselves with Skanderbeg without making a nationalistic myth of him. This article is about historical Skanderbeg. Not about Myth of Skanderbeg. If this article would be about Myth of Skanderbeg, the addition of his name on Albanian or Arbereshe language would be justified because Slavs or Greeks never made a myth of him. {{U|Resnjari}}, can you please present written source for earliest mention of Skanderbeg on Arbereshe language?--] (]) 22:01, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|ShockedSkater}} Is this your first and only account? The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by ] and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle. ''Breve memoria'' is a medieval text which can be cited via reliable secondary sources, but not via Hopf.--] (]) 16:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::They never made a myth out of him? They used Skanderbeg as an anti-Ottoman symbol for their own purposes of "liberation from the Ottoman yoke" polemic. Anyway a few clarifications on Arberesh. The term Arbersh is a self appellation the old Albanian community uses in Southern Italy. Their Albanian dialect (not language) is called Arberisht. Both the words Arberesh and Arbersht are old words that Albanian speakers used for themselves and the language prior to the 18th century and has survived outside the Balkans until now in Southern Italy. Skanderbeg had survived as in oral memory among the Arberesh and at the 19th century it was from such sources and so on that Balkan Albanians borrowed him for their purposes (Blumi, p.43. ). Skendi also did a paper on this titled ''Skenderbeg and Albanian Consciousness'', 1968, pp. 83-84. deals with the Arberesh and their traditions about the man. The rest of the paper looks at how those traditions were taken up by Balkan Albanians of the National Awakening when transnational links between both communties transpired in the 1880s etc.] (]) 22:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
::::::::Well it happens that the only edition we have is the one published by Hopf. Do you have any other reliable, secondary sources on the Breve Memoria, that can be cited via reliable sources, but not through Hopf? Because by publishing it, Hopf saved the Memoria; the original is lost, not to be found anywhere.
:::::::*{{U|Resnjari}}, are you able to present written source for earliest mention of Skanderbeg on ] or you want to say that in case of Skanderbeg wikipedia should make exemption and use oral instead of written sources?
::::::::Not my first, I had an account years ago, got disinterested with the project. Can't remember for sure right now.
:::::::*The article about ] uses ''Gjergji'' (). Do you want to say that correct ] version of his name should be ''Gjergji'' instead of ''Gjergj'' version (used by people who only borrowed Skanderbeg and used him for their purposes)? --] (]) 22:56, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
::::::::Do you have any sources that support the: "''The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by ] and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle''" statement ] (]) 16:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::About Gjergj and Gjergji both forms work, as per Albanian phonetic rules depending on the context. If you spoke Albanian that should not be some gotcha moment. About the Arberesh, Skanderbeg's memory survived via oral means. This has been documented. I'll quote Skendi as i guess you might not have access to the source. pp.83-84: {{tq|The memory of the Albanian national hero was maintained vividly among the Albanians of Italy, those who emigrated to Calabria and Sicily, following his death. Among them, "during the wedding dinner", wrote A. Smilari toward the end of the last century, "guns are fired on every side, and songs are chanted, which recall the dinners of Skenderbeg". And the afternoon of Easter day, "The men and women dance separately, singing poems which bring to memory Skenderbeg and the fall of Albania under Turkish rule." Living compactly in Christian territory, though in separate communities, the Italo-Albanians have preserved the songs about Skenderbeg and his exploits which their ancestors had brought from the mother country. Today one may even speak of the existence of a Skenderbeg cycle among them, if one takes into account also the songs on other Albanian heroes who surrounded him. Different, however, was the situation in Albania proper.....}}] (]) 23:15, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


The Greek chronicographers ], ] and ] are the first who mentioned Castriotis in their chronicles. Barletti in latin came almost a century later. Also, the Greeks produced an extended bibliography in Greek. Therefore, the name in Greek is of encyclopaedic interest. Don't worry. You don't "lose" him if the name is in Greek.--] (]) 10:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC) :Is anybody else enjoying that K. Hopf is good for the article to claim that Sk's mother was Albanian (page?), but not good to cite Musachi that Sk was Serbian? Properly interpreted, all this says that both of Sk's parents were Serbians, and therefore if Musachi was Voisava's relative, he was also Serbian, unless we find Musachi quoting that Sk's mother was "Albanian". After that we can ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanislav (Stanisha).--] (]) 21:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
::Please tell me what "di natura Serviano" means, by "nature a Serbian", or by character, a Serbian, or by disposition, a Serbian, or he looked like Bosnians. If it read "di origine Serviano", "nato Serviano" that would be OK. That would mean he was born a Serb. Vojsava is Albanian because the link with her sister Agnese, the mother of ''Andrea Angeli'' is attested in other sources, that say the Angeli were nephews of Skanderbeg on his maternal side (Girolamo Angeli, or Paolo Angeli, Skanderbeg's trusted counselor and diplomat). Now, the Angeli are most definitely not Serbian, or having to do with the Brankovitch, they're Drivastine Catholics (from Drisht). It's either this, or that; you cannot possibly be Serbian on another side, beside your mother and father. Please see on the meaning of "natura" in Italian. For example: Forsi voi credete, o donna, che io consumato da molti anni, & ''per natura rozo'' - From: Michelangelo Biondo: "Angitia cortigiana" (Maybe you believe, o woman, that I, consumed from many years now, ''rough by nature''...). If you ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanisha (sic!) and not Stanislav, I might accidentally add they were Pravoslav Orthodox in the beginning, then his father took the name Hamza (Amesa in Latin sources, Pope Pius). They were not Slavs, they were Pravoslavs of the Slavonic rite, the difference between which I'm sure you know and appreciate. ] (]) 22:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)


:::Wow, this is some science! So, Vojsava had not a sister called Mara Brankovich? And according to your "scientific" method, if Serbiano means Orthodox, all the supposed to be "Albanians" are so in what sense?
:{{re|Skylax30}} Can you cite a WP policy stating that if there is literature concerning a person in a certain language, we should add his name in the WP article in that language? I am asking because I 'd like to add ]'s name in Chinese. ] (]) 11:14, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


::Or the Brankovich incident, when the Serbs blocked Skanderbeg the way so he did not join Hunyadi, because '''Brankovitch didn't want to mess up his good relations with the Turks'''. No mention is made of this fantastic origin from the Brankovich, for example, "Skanderbeg, who was related to Brankovich by way of his mother, told him etc. etc.". There are no hints whatsoever. The Brankovich origin is kind of ridiculous, Ivan Kastrioti's father '''owned only 2 villages''' in Dibra. If you were a Brankovich, that pretty much owned all Kosovo - a large swathe of the Balkans, would you give your daughter in marriage to a guy whose father Paul had only 2 villages? ] (]) 22:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
::I suppose there will be no objection in adding a list with a famous man's name like Marx in Chinese, Korean and any other language. I don't know any WP rule that excludes this. After all, Marx and ''anarchists'' did not believe in nations, I think. But as an anarchist, you should know better. Alternatively, I can add a sub-paragraph with Greek bibliography on Castrioti, based on Titos Yohalas' book and others. Cheers. --] (]) 11:22, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
:::@Skylax30, the article is not about ].] (]) 12:06, 5 February 2019 (UTC) ::Adding an inaccurate and incorrect source from the 19th century is against ] and ]. It’s not even the Turkish/Islamic view, which is what you discussed in the initial comment on this thread. ] (]) 23:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
:::What source are you talking about? ] (]) 01:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
::::Hopf's source. My comment was directed towards Skylax. ] (]) 02:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
::::{{ping|ShockedSkater}} Read Noli (1968) for details about the issue. The statement "natura Serviano" doesn't come from Gjon Muzaka, but from Spandounes.--] (]) 22:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
:::::I think Spandounes/Spandugino wrote "natione Serviano". ] (]) 11:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)


Kosovo as an example is a Slavic name, all cities and landscapes, rivers and mountains in Kosovo have Slavic names - the Albanians have simply adopted these Slavic names and pronounce them Albanian. They don't even have their own names in Kosovo, let alone history and culture - yet they aggressively deny anything Slavic and Serbian in Kosovo today and claim that they have always been in Kosovo and have always been the majority of the population there - and don't even have their own names for the country. But Washington has decided on the project of an Albanian nation in Kosovo, which is why the memory of everything non-Albanian in Kosovo must be erased. It's easy to deal with foreign countries and cultures, it is not the own home.
Sorry ], but I don't have time to "study" whatever you are suggesting. Stete here clearly what you don't like. I transferred to the "Myth of Sk." the paragraph of Rama. You may delete it from here. Where are the "primary sources"? --] (]) 12:23, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
:I know that's the problem, you don't study, but POV push. Look either that article gets absorbed into here or its stays separate. We are not creating ]s all over the place.] (]) 12:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
::Don't bother responding to this nonsense {{u|Resnjari}}. Feeding it keeps the exhibit on display. --] (]) 04:57, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


The same applies to the Albanian national hero Skenderbeg, who was more Serb than Albanian by descent. His mother ] was Serbian, or at least Slavic (Bulgarian or Macedonian Slavic), and on his father's side the Serbian/Slavic proportion was also high. His father ] and his brother Reposh (sr. Repoš) were buried in the Serbian Orthodox monastery of Hilandar on the monastic republic of Athos. The most important monasteries there are and were Greek or Byzantine, but he wanted the Serbian monastery. Apparently his father Gjon identified himself with Serbs, and his mother was Serb/Slavic anyway. Their children, Skanderbeg's siblings, all have Serbian names. And all their children were given Serbian names, Skenderbeg alone was called Gjergj in Albanian. It's strange, not..? Or was Skednerbeg actually given the Serbian name Đurđ (dʑurdʑ) or Đurađ (dʑuradʑ), which became the Albanian Gjergj?
===... and why Albanian name is in LEAD?===
Any explanation why the Albanian name is coming after the english? Is the english name a transliteration of the Albanian? Point to the appropriate rule please.--] (]) 13:49, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
:Because the figure of Skanderbeg is associated most with Albanians, hence the Albanian name is given in lede.] (]) 14:01, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


Why is this such a nuisance for the Albanians, why can't they stand it and consider it the greatest national insult when Skenderbeg's Serbian or Slavic ancestry is mentioned in even the slightest way? Isn't that very racist? If we change Serb to Jew, what would we say? But they are Albanians, they are tolerated because the Albanian Kosovo project is to be realized.] (]) 23:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
] has an example: {{tq|*'''Cleopatra VII Philopator''' ({{lang-grc-gre|Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ}}; 69 – August 12, 30&nbsp;BC), known to history simply as '''Cleopatra''', was the last active ruler of the ] of Egypt&nbsp;...}} Have a look at Good Article ], it begins with {{tq|'''Alexander III of Macedon''' ({{lang-grc-gre|Αλέξανδρος Γ΄ ὁ Μακεδών}}; 20/21 July 356 BC – 10/11 June 323 BC), commonly known as '''Alexander the Great'''}}. Cheers mate. ] (]) 14:02, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


:His earliest recorded ancestor was Kostandin Kastriot Mazreku, given by Muzaka. PLEASE tell me what in the world Mazrek could mean in Serbian. They were buried in a Serbian Orthodox church, because an Albanian autocephalous church did not exist at the time. They had Serb names because obviously, the Serbian church baptized them. Why is the tower in which Gjon Kastrioti buried called "Arbanski Pirg"? Or will you leave such details and logic out, because you want to seem like you have a hidden history, buried under Albanian "propaganda". It's all just very humorous, considering the fact that your ethnicity would never even dare claim Skanderbeg up until a few years ago, because he was the hero of your worst enemy. It's all laughable. ] (]) 00:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
The example is irrelevant. Cleopatra was called Κλεοπάτρα and Alexander was called Αλέξανδρος by his compatriots, and these are their names in the primary sources. It is true, though, that their names are somewhat different in modern Albanian. Cheers.--] (]) 14:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
:His father was originally Catholic as well. Go figure. For sure an Orthodox Serb, very proud of his ethnicity and nationality. The most powerful rulers around him were Serb lords. Obviously he would switch faiths for an alliance. You make it seem as if he was a nationalist, identifying with Serbia when his son campaigned into Serbia and feuded with the Brankovic ruler, who according to you all is from the same family as his mother. So according to your logic, a Catholic father, located in Albania, who gathered a mostly ethnic Albanian army and alliance around him, goes and invades his "Serb" mother's supposed relative, and is still a Serb. At this point it's become a literal joke. ] (]) 00:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
:More ] views there. One hopes your editing is not steered by it.] (]) 14:54, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


The Albanians do not consider it a national insult because first of all the argument presented is ridiculous and laughable. In addition, the Albanian people are the most hospitable, generous, tolerant, and peace loving people in the entire Europe. Serbia sees that as a weakness and always attacks Albanians. Those are the reasons. ] (]) 01:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
:{{re|Skylax30}} I thought ancient greek alphabet consisted only of capital letters. ] (]) 15:14, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


This is not the place to share Serb grievances. The article is about the Albanian hero Skanderbeg not about Serb grievances regarding what happened in Dardania 250 years ago, and please cite sources. Not a single source is cited. The names and people in Dardania 250 years ago might have been Slavonic, but today the people and the names in Dardania are 92.9% Albanians and deserve to live in peace and have their rights respected similar to every other European people. Speaking of Washington, the Serb police and military during the Dardania war of 1999 was among the most brutal in the entire history of mankind. In addition, Albanians have always wanted to live in peace and have accepted hundreds and thousands of concessions to make peace, but Serbs have never respected the deals because Serbs are not interested in peace but in wars. ] (]) 00:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
::No. The ancient greek script was the Linear B.--] (]) 20:49, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


== Is There Evidence that Skanderbeg's Correspondences Were in Greek? ==
:::Seriously??? What is your definition of "Ancient Greek"? --] (]) 21:20, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


There is evidence that Skanderbeg, the national hero of Albania, sent and received his correspondences in Greek. Skanderbeg wrote letters to the Sultan and rulers of the West in Greek.
:::We are getting off-topic but I loled.] (]) 21:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
] (]) 23:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)


== If there is no evidence on Voisava Kastrioti being a part of the Branković family, why is it still written on this article? ==
::::Would it get back on topic if we write Skanderbeg in Linear B? <small>Sorry, couldn't resist!</small> --] (]) 21:55, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


Is it okay if I remove it? ] (]) 21:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
== The article need an overhaul. Its got all sorts of WP:PRIMARY everywhere. ==


== Serbian sources of this article mention Skanderbeg as Serbian ==
The article need an overhaul. Its got all sorts of WP:PRIMARY everywhere (and content based on sources from the 19th century ! -]) and has a layout of original research. Its time to remove these and or replace it with secondary sources that mention certain aspects of the life of Skanderbeg.] (]) 12:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
:Sources way over their use by date. Content should not be based on these and new scholarship has made either some of these redundant. Scholarship also can not ascertain for their accuracy. The following should go. Demetrio 1539, Miklosich 1858, Moore 1850, Thallóczy 1916, Noli 1947, Ljubić 1868–91, Jorga 1908–1913, Lane–Poole 1888, Gibbon 1901. I also came across this: Jacques 1995! This source is not even RS and should not be used in the body of the article at all.] (]) 12:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


Sources that are old or unreliable can be included in a section (or article) on the "Historiography on Sk.".--] (]) 12:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC) Why are the sources used in this article in contradiction with each other? Why do they cite Skanderbeg as a Serbian while the article mentions him as Albanian? ] (]) 12:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
:They should not be in the body of the article. All of these are used for information in the article. Content based on these should not be there. If your talking about a further reading section that is different.] (]) 12:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

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? view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Was Skanderbeg Albanian? A1: Yes, Skanderbeg was an Albanian feudal lord from the Albanian House of Kastrioti. Q2: What language did they speak in Albania during Skanderbeg's lifetime? A2: Skanderbeg's native language was Albanian. In the Balkans Italian, Greek, Vlach, Latin, South Slavic languages and Ottoman Turkish were also common during Skanderbeg's lifetime. Q3: What was the background of Skanderbeg's mother? A3: Primary sources refer to her as being from Polog, most likely being the Polog valley in modern day North Macedonia. It has also been argued that another Polog, closer to the town of Bitola in the plain of Pelagonia may be the location of the Polog mentioned by Barleti. There is debate among different scholars of whether Skanderbeg's mother was related to the Muzaka family, most likely of Albanian descent, or of the Serb Branković dynasty, or of an unknown Bulgarian family. There is, however, no mention of Voisava on the Branković dynasty family tree. Q4: Was Skanderbeg a Roman Catholic? A4: Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was a Roman Catholic in the period from 1444 to his death in 1468. In the period prior to 1444, he had converted to Islam. The exact date of his conversion is unclear but it must have been between 1426 and 1431. His father, Gjon Kastrioti changed his religion several times (Roman Catholic/Christian Orthodox/Muslim). Q5: What was Skanderbeg's real name and who were his parents? A5: His real name was Gjergj Kastrioti, Gjergj is the Albanian version of the name George. His father was Gjon Kastrioti and his mother's name was Voisava Kastrioti
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The islamic view

The article is almost exclusively presenting the western-albanian view on the subject. However, there is a good volume of islamic/ottoman historiography on Sk., claiming that the western is "propaganda". Of course the islamic historiography can also be characterized as "propaganda", but the spirit of WP is to present all views, so as to produce the famous "neutral p.o.v.". Would it be proper to open a section presenting the islamic (or pro-Ottoman / Turkish) point of view? Skylax30 (talk) 19:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Your point being? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

KOPAŃSKI, A. B. (1997). ISLAMIZATION OF ALBANIANS IN THE MIDDLE AGES: THE PRIMARY SOURCES AND THE PREDICAMENT OF THE MODERN HISTORIOGRAPHY. Islamic Studies, 36(2/3), 191–208. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23076194

  • Ivan Kastrioti, serbo-albanian war lord (p. 195).
  • The clans of southern and central Albanians refused to join Skanderbeg.
  • Kastrioti and others received every year 1.400 golden ducats from the Pope.
WP:FRINGE on the first two. Gjon Kastrioti was most definitely not Serbo-Albanian, and some of the southern and central clans did indeed join Skanderbeg (e.g. Muzaka, Arianiti, Topia and smaller clans and groups). The last one may be true, I don't know the exact amount, but I think he did receive minimal financial aid from the Pope. Based on the fact that the paper calls Gjon Kastrioti a Serbo-Albanian warlord, the source shouldn't be used. Additionally, this isn't technically the Islamic/Ottoman view on anything - he was a Pole who converted to Islam during adulthood and was very religiously-biased in his work. Botushali (talk) 04:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Of course this source can't be used, since it has been decided that the article must be an albanian fiction. However, if you read Karl Hopf, which is a source in the article, citing John Musachi, you may see that Skanderbeg was 'per natura Serviano" (born Serbian). (Karl Hopf, Reise durch die Gebiete des Drin und Wardar, 1867 p. 303, citing J.Musaki (who claimed that his is relative of Sk's family):

"Perche in Albania era entrato Scanderbeg uomo valente e per natura Serviano" . Have a nice day.

Have you actually read Gjon Muzaka’s work? I’m pretty certain it’s free to read online. Botushali (talk) 07:27, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
Per natura Serviano, means "of a Serbian nature", or "Serbian character, disposition" (he was very tall, as Giuseppe Valentini has shown). Please do not distort the sources, or give them a meaning they do not have. If someone wanted to write born Serbian he would had used nato Serviano instead; please refer to . ShockedSkater (talk) 00:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
I was searching for "Gjon" + "Muzaka" but it didn't find anything. Can you paste the link here, please? However, I found Marinus Barletius' book and he doesn't mention any "Albanian" Georgius Castriotus. It doesn't even say that he was born somewhere in Albania.--Skylax30 (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Jokes aside, the memoirs of Giovanni Musachi is here, published by K. Hopf. Starts from p. 270. The "natura Serviano" is in p. 334. . Of course it's free.
Here you go - https://books.google.com/books/about/Early_Albania.html?id=_sHmTRCEe7kC - nowhere does it say in John’s original work that which you put above. Not only is Karl Hopf outdated, but he is incorrect in what he is saying. Botushali (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
Karl Hopf has been accused of making a mess of his genealogies, or misreading documents, but I assure you he is not outdated. ShockedSkater (talk) 00:44, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Karl Hopf’s work from 1867 is outdated when it comes to the ethnicity of Skanderbeg’s family. We have much more recent sources that clearly state his paternal side was purely Albanian. Botushali (talk) 01:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Karl Hopf published a documentary collection, called Chroniques gréco-romaines, which as the name precisely states, is a collection of Greek-Roman chronicles; among these chronicles is the Breve Memoria, or "Short Memoir" of Giovanni Musachi. Now, which part of Giovanni Musachi is outdated? I'm not sure if you are familiar with this work, of which you paste a link that shows what, precisely? ShockedSkater (talk) 17:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
A link to the up-to-date translation in a book by a Robert Elsie. Botushali (talk) 20:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
@ShockedSkater: Is this your first and only account? The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by Theodore Spandounes and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle. Breve memoria is a medieval text which can be cited via reliable secondary sources, but not via Hopf.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Well it happens that the only edition we have is the one published by Hopf. Do you have any other reliable, secondary sources on the Breve Memoria, that can be cited via reliable sources, but not through Hopf? Because by publishing it, Hopf saved the Memoria; the original is lost, not to be found anywhere.
Not my first, I had an account years ago, got disinterested with the project. Can't remember for sure right now.
Do you have any sources that support the: "The statement ("natura Serviano") hasn't been written by Muzaka. It has been written by Theodore Spandounes and Hopf accidentally included it in Muzaka's chronicle" statement ShockedSkater (talk) 16:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Is anybody else enjoying that K. Hopf is good for the article to claim that Sk's mother was Albanian (page?), but not good to cite Musachi that Sk was Serbian? Properly interpreted, all this says that both of Sk's parents were Serbians, and therefore if Musachi was Voisava's relative, he was also Serbian, unless we find Musachi quoting that Sk's mother was "Albanian". After that we can ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanislav (Stanisha).--Skylax30 (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Please tell me what "di natura Serviano" means, by "nature a Serbian", or by character, a Serbian, or by disposition, a Serbian, or he looked like Bosnians. If it read "di origine Serviano", "nato Serviano" that would be OK. That would mean he was born a Serb. Vojsava is Albanian because the link with her sister Agnese, the mother of Andrea Angeli is attested in other sources, that say the Angeli were nephews of Skanderbeg on his maternal side (Girolamo Angeli, or Paolo Angeli, Skanderbeg's trusted counselor and diplomat). Now, the Angeli are most definitely not Serbian, or having to do with the Brankovitch, they're Drivastine Catholics (from Drisht). It's either this, or that; you cannot possibly be Serbian on another side, beside your mother and father. Please see on the meaning of "natura" in Italian. For example: Forsi voi credete, o donna, che io consumato da molti anni, & per natura rozo - From: Michelangelo Biondo: "Angitia cortigiana" (Maybe you believe, o woman, that I, consumed from many years now, rough by nature...). If you ask why "accidentally" one child was called Stanisha (sic!) and not Stanislav, I might accidentally add they were Pravoslav Orthodox in the beginning, then his father took the name Hamza (Amesa in Latin sources, Pope Pius). They were not Slavs, they were Pravoslavs of the Slavonic rite, the difference between which I'm sure you know and appreciate. ShockedSkater (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Wow, this is some science! So, Vojsava had not a sister called Mara Brankovich? And according to your "scientific" method, if Serbiano means Orthodox, all the supposed to be "Albanians" are so in what sense?
Or the Brankovich incident, when the Serbs blocked Skanderbeg the way so he did not join Hunyadi, because Brankovitch didn't want to mess up his good relations with the Turks. No mention is made of this fantastic origin from the Brankovich, for example, "Skanderbeg, who was related to Brankovich by way of his mother, told him etc. etc.". There are no hints whatsoever. The Brankovich origin is kind of ridiculous, Ivan Kastrioti's father owned only 2 villages in Dibra. If you were a Brankovich, that pretty much owned all Kosovo - a large swathe of the Balkans, would you give your daughter in marriage to a guy whose father Paul had only 2 villages? ShockedSkater (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Adding an inaccurate and incorrect source from the 19th century is against WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:FRINGE. It’s not even the Turkish/Islamic view, which is what you discussed in the initial comment on this thread. Botushali (talk) 23:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
What source are you talking about? ShockedSkater (talk) 01:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Hopf's source. My comment was directed towards Skylax. Botushali (talk) 02:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
@ShockedSkater: Read Noli (1968) for details about the issue. The statement "natura Serviano" doesn't come from Gjon Muzaka, but from Spandounes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
I think Spandounes/Spandugino wrote "natione Serviano". ShockedSkater (talk) 11:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Kosovo as an example is a Slavic name, all cities and landscapes, rivers and mountains in Kosovo have Slavic names - the Albanians have simply adopted these Slavic names and pronounce them Albanian. They don't even have their own names in Kosovo, let alone history and culture - yet they aggressively deny anything Slavic and Serbian in Kosovo today and claim that they have always been in Kosovo and have always been the majority of the population there - and don't even have their own names for the country. But Washington has decided on the project of an Albanian nation in Kosovo, which is why the memory of everything non-Albanian in Kosovo must be erased. It's easy to deal with foreign countries and cultures, it is not the own home.

The same applies to the Albanian national hero Skenderbeg, who was more Serb than Albanian by descent. His mother Voisava Kastrioti was Serbian, or at least Slavic (Bulgarian or Macedonian Slavic), and on his father's side the Serbian/Slavic proportion was also high. His father Gjon Kastrioti and his brother Reposh (sr. Repoš) were buried in the Serbian Orthodox monastery of Hilandar on the monastic republic of Athos. The most important monasteries there are and were Greek or Byzantine, but he wanted the Serbian monastery. Apparently his father Gjon identified himself with Serbs, and his mother was Serb/Slavic anyway. Their children, Skanderbeg's siblings, all have Serbian names. And all their children were given Serbian names, Skenderbeg alone was called Gjergj in Albanian. It's strange, not..? Or was Skednerbeg actually given the Serbian name Đurđ (dʑurdʑ) or Đurađ (dʑuradʑ), which became the Albanian Gjergj?

Why is this such a nuisance for the Albanians, why can't they stand it and consider it the greatest national insult when Skenderbeg's Serbian or Slavic ancestry is mentioned in even the slightest way? Isn't that very racist? If we change Serb to Jew, what would we say? But they are Albanians, they are tolerated because the Albanian Kosovo project is to be realized.Carski (talk) 23:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

His earliest recorded ancestor was Kostandin Kastriot Mazreku, given by Muzaka. PLEASE tell me what in the world Mazrek could mean in Serbian. They were buried in a Serbian Orthodox church, because an Albanian autocephalous church did not exist at the time. They had Serb names because obviously, the Serbian church baptized them. Why is the tower in which Gjon Kastrioti buried called "Arbanski Pirg"? Or will you leave such details and logic out, because you want to seem like you have a hidden history, buried under Albanian "propaganda". It's all just very humorous, considering the fact that your ethnicity would never even dare claim Skanderbeg up until a few years ago, because he was the hero of your worst enemy. It's all laughable. 141.98.141.192 (talk) 00:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
His father was originally Catholic as well. Go figure. For sure an Orthodox Serb, very proud of his ethnicity and nationality. The most powerful rulers around him were Serb lords. Obviously he would switch faiths for an alliance. You make it seem as if he was a nationalist, identifying with Serbia when his son campaigned into Serbia and feuded with the Brankovic ruler, who according to you all is from the same family as his mother. So according to your logic, a Catholic father, located in Albania, who gathered a mostly ethnic Albanian army and alliance around him, goes and invades his "Serb" mother's supposed relative, and is still a Serb. At this point it's become a literal joke. 141.98.141.192 (talk) 00:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The Albanians do not consider it a national insult because first of all the argument presented is ridiculous and laughable. In addition, the Albanian people are the most hospitable, generous, tolerant, and peace loving people in the entire Europe. Serbia sees that as a weakness and always attacks Albanians. Those are the reasons. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:D125:2D1:9542:CB94 (talk) 01:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not the place to share Serb grievances. The article is about the Albanian hero Skanderbeg not about Serb grievances regarding what happened in Dardania 250 years ago, and please cite sources. Not a single source is cited. The names and people in Dardania 250 years ago might have been Slavonic, but today the people and the names in Dardania are 92.9% Albanians and deserve to live in peace and have their rights respected similar to every other European people. Speaking of Washington, the Serb police and military during the Dardania war of 1999 was among the most brutal in the entire history of mankind. In addition, Albanians have always wanted to live in peace and have accepted hundreds and thousands of concessions to make peace, but Serbs have never respected the deals because Serbs are not interested in peace but in wars. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:6493:D35:2CE8:6F77 (talk) 00:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Is There Evidence that Skanderbeg's Correspondences Were in Greek?

There is evidence that Skanderbeg, the national hero of Albania, sent and received his correspondences in Greek. Skanderbeg wrote letters to the Sultan and rulers of the West in Greek. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:6493:D35:2CE8:6F77 (talk) 23:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

If there is no evidence on Voisava Kastrioti being a part of the Branković family, why is it still written on this article?

Is it okay if I remove it? Triballiii (talk) 21:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Serbian sources of this article mention Skanderbeg as Serbian

Why are the sources used in this article in contradiction with each other? Why do they cite Skanderbeg as a Serbian while the article mentions him as Albanian? 93.86.237.151 (talk) 12:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

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