| Revision as of 12:01, 17 December 2023 editVipz (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,133 edits →Missing Hyperlink for English Language: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 16:05, 14 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,302,385 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Cuba/Archive 23) (bot |
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{{Vital article|level=4|topic=Geography|class=B}} |
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{{WikiProject Latin America|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Cuba|importance=Top}} |
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{{Press|year=2006|section=May 2006 |
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{{banner holder |collapsed=yes |text=Other: old GA nominee; On this day (]); press notices; ] |1= |
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{{Online source|year=2006|section=May 2006 |
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| title=Dueling edits dog Misplaced Pages's Cuba entry |
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== Human Rights section in need of review; who wrote this? == |
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== Human Rights section in need of review; who wrote this? == |
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=== Torture and weird sources === |
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=== <s>Torture and weird sources</s> === |
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First of all, simply writing "The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions" is not sufficient without mention of proper sources, for example NGO's or some recognized polity. I could accuse Norway of torture right now, so? What is this source supposed to be? http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Cuba67sp/indice.htm It is dated 1967? Surely something more recent should be found, otherwise the section might aswell be moved to "history of Cuba" Torture? Extrajudicial executions? I can't find any mention of these in recent reports. Not even the US state department claims the Cuban government practices torture or extrajudicial execution. Here is the recent report by human rights watch https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/cuba#3159b0 It does not mention torture, sexual abuse of inmates or extrajudicial executions. Those parts should be removed or changed to include what time this accusation was made. |
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<s>First of all, simply writing "The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions" is not sufficient without mention of proper sources, for example NGO's or some recognized polity. I could accuse Norway of torture right now, so? What is this source supposed to be? http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Cuba67sp/indice.htm It is dated 1967? Surely something more recent should be found, otherwise the section might aswell be moved to "history of Cuba" Torture? Extrajudicial executions? I can't find any mention of these in recent reports. Not even the US state department claims the Cuban government practices torture or extrajudicial execution. Here is the recent report by human rights watch https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/cuba#3159b0 It does not mention torture, sexual abuse of inmates or extrajudicial executions. Those parts should be removed or changed to include what time this accusation was made. |
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'''Needs update''' |
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'''Needs update''' |
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5. Extend the section about the media with more information and remove the part about imprisonment of journalists. |
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5. Extend the section about the media with more information and remove the part about imprisonment of journalists. |
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-- <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18 March 2022 (UTC)</span><sup></sup> |
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-- <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ])</s> 18 March 2022 (UTC)</span><sup></sup> |
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== Democratic Pluralist Ideology == |
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Many edits are confusing democracy with partisan or pluralist democracy. Single party democracies exist *prior* to our own ideological beliefs on what the correct form of democracy is. Democracy is not pluralism of *parties* (partisanship) but the pluralism of *participation* in the form of *voting*. |
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People vote in Cuba, have elections, and change policies at local, regional, and national levels. Recently, they even rewrote their constitution starting at the grassroots level. It is, regardless of ideology, a literal democracy. ] (]) 22:11, 6 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:"rewrote their constitution starting at the grassroots level"?? The Cuban constitution ascribes the role of the party to be the "leading force of society and of the state". Did the party stand aside while the grassroots did whatever they wanted?? Unlikely.--] (]) 20:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::"Democracy is when billionaires entirely control all major political parties, allowing roughly half the populace to choose which spokespeople they would prefer to explain the decisions of the ruling class; freedom of the press, similarly, is when billionaires control the media." — American Rich Guy Burger Foundation, 100% Not Funded By Nazi CIA Cutouts ] (]) 18:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC) |
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::: I agree, Cuba is very clearly a democracy, but it doesn't fit the very narrow definition of democracy that the United States lays out. ] (]) 23:30, 27 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Reliable sources disagree. ] (]) 23:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Please don't engage in ]. There are billionaires in communist countries, they're called communist party bureaucrats. ] (]) 23:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::@]: although I agree with your suggestion in your first sentence, the latter sentence appears to be ] on your end. We're speaking of Cuba here, and I presume you were talking about China. There appears to be only one entry at ] at the moment: ] (amusingly, an American-based Cuban-born businessman and friend of literal Nazis/KKK members). As for billionaires in communist countries in general, maybe it's because these countries are ] at this stage, with China being the most prominent example of a state capitalist country. If a country produces domestic billionaires, it's not communist, apart from rhetoric. –] (]) 02:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::I apologize for engaging in whataboutism, as such, I'm not going to elaborate further on my second point. ] (]) 02:10, 30 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::@]: feel free to elaborate if you wish, we're here to learn from each other while trying to improve articles on those subjects. –] (]) 02:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::When I say communist party bureaucrats are billionaires, i'm not refers to billionaires in the capitalist sense, I'm refers to billionaires in terms of power. There may be no billionaires in communist countries, but the people in charge of the communist parties in these countries effectively are billionaires. But in the end, all of this is just my opinion. I was just annoyed by the soapboxing. ] (]) 02:40, 30 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::@]: Thanks for elaborating, it's worth it to avoid confusion. Criticism of bureaucracy is not in shortage among orthodox Marxists (particularly those critical of Leninism). See the theory of ] for example. |
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::::::::That said, different forms and views on democracy exist, although the Marxist–Leninist approaches haven't exactly led to attractive forms of such in practice. And of course, trying to come about socialism democratically gets you a ]. |
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::::::::I believe it's a bit ironical that in 2022 Cuba advanced LGBT and gender equality rights through a ] while over in the U.S. nine undemocratically appointed ] 'justices' ] abortion rights, undemocratically. |
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::::::::Now, all of this requires a serious consensus among reliable scholarly sources to consider any changes. –] (]) 03:12, 30 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::The new class critique is exactly what I'm referring to, hopefully a mistake like that is not repeated in the future. |
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:::::::::"And of course, trying to come about socialism democratically gets you a CIA-funded coup." That's not always the case, India was essentially democratic socialist for a long time from 1947 to 1991. |
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:::::::::"I believe it's a bit ironical that in 2022 Cuba advanced LGBT and gender equality rights through a democratic referendum while over in the U.S. nine undemocratically appointed Supreme Court 'justices' took away abortion rights, undemocratically." I completely agree with this, which is why we need more democracy, not less. |
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:::::::::"Now, all of this requires a serious consensus among reliable scholarly sources to consider any changes." Couldn't agree more. |
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:::::::::I'm glad we could have this conversation. ] (]) 03:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Why didn't the US intervene in India? ] (]) 21:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2023 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Cuba|answered=yes}} |
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Delete the "Back in power, and receiving financial, military, and logistical support from the United States government..." where since the source doesn't even mention the claim in the nearly 40 pages referenced. ] (]) 23:40, 23 September 2023 (UTC) |
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: {{not done}} Even if that source doesn't say so, the United states definitely did support Batista, see ] ] ] 22:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Fake Statistics == |
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I cite these studies that question the statistics prepared by the Cuban government and taken as a reference in international metrics.<ref>{{cite web|access-date=2023-09-16|date=2018-06-20|language=en|last=Ryan|title=Don't Trust Cuban Health Care Statistics|url=https://mises.org/power-market/dont-trust-cuban-health-care-statistics|website=Mises Institute}}<!-- auto-translated by Module:CS1 translator --></ref><ref>{{cite journal|access-date=2023-09-16|date=1969-07|doi=10.1017/S0023879100039881|first=Carmelo|issn=0023-8791|language=en|last=Mesa-Lago|number=2|pages=47–81|periodical=Latin American Research Review|title=Availability and Reliability of Statistics in Socialist Cuba (Part Two)|url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/latin-american-research-review/article/availability-and-reliability-of-statistics-in-socialist-cuba-part-two/B4B66142A87F13F714BBE79ED1C8896A}}<!-- auto-translated by Module:CS1 translator --></ref><ref>{{cite journal|access-date=2023-09-16|date=2015|doi=10.1353/cub.2015.0005|first=Roberto M.|issn=1548-2464|last=Gonzalez|number=1|pages=19–39|periodical=Cuban Studies|publisher=]|title=Infant Mortality in Cuba: Myth and Reality|url=https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/49/article/588705}}<!-- auto-translated by Module:CS1 translator --></ref> ] (]) 22:02, 2 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:They are not the only analyzes that have been done, I clarify. ] (]) 22:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC) |
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{{Reflist-talk}} |
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== Undue "extreme poverty" lead section sentence == |
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Hello @], what I was requesting ] was that the statement to be sourced to '''several''' high-quality academic sources. It should also be put into context (embargo, etc.) and elaborated, as done in the Economy section. When several academic sources are in consensus about a statement, claims do not need to be ] — and such claims are then appropriate for ] inclusion ]. –] (]) 14:54, 4 October 2023 (UTC) |
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: Poverty is only mentioned twice in the article, both times in respect of the 88% extreme poverty figure. An examination of poverty in Cuba would be a good addition to the page but needs more than a one sentence statement based on a report from a marginally reliable source. Does anyone have any doubts about the 88% figure? I had a look around to see what other information is available. Apparently the Cuban government does not release data about poverty. The United Nations Development Programme releases a report which measures something called a global Multidimensional Poverty Index (MPI). The global MPI is a key international resource that measures acute multidimensional poverty across more than 100 developing countries. By this measure, poverty in Cuba is fairly mild in comparison to other developing countries, with 0.7% of the population experiencing severe poverty. ] (]) 15:53, 4 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::@] The problem is that these indices do not measure things such as the scarcity of basic products, in addition to the fact that they are usually made with the exchange rate to the official dollar, which is not the exchange rate that is normally obtained on the street (same problem with Argentina). ] (]) 18:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::@], thank you for bringing this to light. As a Venezuelan who has visited Cuba, I must admit your comment offered a momentary chuckle. It's very important to understand the challenge of conducting an independent and comprehensive study in a nation under a dictatorial regime. The claim suggesting that Cuba's poverty levels mirror those of developed countries is, to put it mildly, perplexing. I completely agree that on Misplaced Pages, we should rely on high-quality academic sources, and I've provided one to support the information. However, using the discussion page to make such astonishing claims is a tad humorous. IMHO, I respect the importance of sourcing and ensuring our content is as accurate as possible. Let's collaborate and ensure we represent the reality as best as the available data allows. ] (]) 05:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::: "By this measure, poverty in Cuba is fairly mild '''in comparison to other developing countries''' ". '''Developed countries''' are not included in the MPI measurement. ] (]) 08:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::@], I value the diligence you've displayed in seeking high-quality academic sources and the contextual information from the UNDP's Multidimensional Poverty Index (MPI). However, as someone with firsthand experience and a deep connection to the region, I'd like to emphasize the importance of looking beyond the numbers. And yes the MPI is a significant metric, it isn't a comprehensive representation of all aspects of poverty. It's well-documented that the nature of a regime can significantly hinder the availability and transparency of data. Independent journalism and research in such environments often face challenges. But IMHO, a metric like the MPI, though valuable, might not capture the complete socio-economic reality in nations where data can be controlled or suppressed. Drawing parallels between Cuba and other developing nations based on the MPI alone might give a skewed perspective. We must consider other elements such as access to basic commodities, the real street value of the currency, and other socio-economic factors that aren't encapsulated in the MPI. I propose that instead of concentrating on a singular percentage or metric, we expand our scope to include qualitative accounts and broader indicators. This would provide a more nuanced understanding of the situation in Cuba. I'm committed to ensuring our discussions and articles reflect a balanced and well-informed view of Cuba's intricate socio-economic landscape ] (]) 14:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::At least some version of the extreme poverty statement must be included, it adds balance to the statements that Cuba outperforms in literacy, infant mortality and life expectancy. In fact, I would say that issues regarding the healthcare system should also be reflected. As the main section states: "Challenges include low salaries for doctors, poor facilities, poor provision of equipment, and the frequent absence of essential drugs". --] (]) 09:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I already explained above in another section why this data is mostly false or outdated. You cannot have low infant mortality with high levels of malnutrition ] (]) 21:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2023 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Cuba|answered=yes}} |
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Christopher Columbus didn't discover Cuba, people were already living there. He just landed there. ] (]) 16:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC) |
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: ] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> I don't see where it says Columbus discovered Cuba. It says he arrived there and that there were already people there. ] (]) 17:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2023 == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Cuba|answered=yes}} |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Cuba|answered=yes}} |
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other languages--]br<<]br<<] ] (]) 00:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC) |
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I am trying to give the Lucumí name for Cuba as well as it's original native name "Cubanascnan" ] (]) 23:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 23:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> I've add all the languages mentioned in the Languages subsection. ] (]) 11:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Correction == |
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== Missing Hyperlink for English Language == |
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cuba is a state capitalist country, not socialist. Please fix this. ] (]) 05:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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It seems like at some point the hyperlink for the English Language in the Other Languages section got dropped somehow. If this is purposeful please educate me, I'm very new to editing. ] (]) 21:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] ]<sup>]</sup> 06:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{Fixed}}, not sure why it wasn't linked. –] (]) 12:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC) |
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Here it is mentioned that the statistic stems from 2008, which is good. But this statistic is kind of useless other then mentioning a previous condition. It missrepresents Cuba for the average reader. Cuba did not even make the list of this 2018 ranking for imprisoned journalists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/12/13/where-the-most-journalists-are-imprisoned-worldwide-infographic/?sh=1b693b336332
The situation of journalists in Cuba is still under scrutany, but for different reasons. For example HRC writes: Cuba has the “most restricted climate for the press in the Americas” according to a 2019 Committee to Protect Journalists report.
The section does not balance out the negatives with the positives, such as information about Cubans access to healthcare, free abortions and school etc. Accusations from 70 years ago are being represented as if they are currently being made (torture and executions)
1. Remove claims of torture and extrajudicial executions from the first sentence
2. Mention were all accusations come from and source it
3. Remove the part about sexual abuse of inmates
4. Update section to represent current conditions.
5. Extend the section about the media with more information and remove the part about imprisonment of journalists.
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. (CC) Tbhotch 06:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)