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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Kim, Jong-Il|1= |
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{{Vital article|level=5|topic=People|subpage=Politicians|class=B}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=high|military-work-group=yes|military-priority=}} |
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{{Talk header|archive_age=28|archive_bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}} |
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{{WikiProject Korea|importance=High|nk=yes|milhist=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=C|b1=no|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes|Biography=y|Korean=y|Post-Cold-War=y}} |
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{{WikiProject Politics|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=B|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=high|listas=Kim, Jong-Il}} |
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<!-- DO NOT PUT NEW POSTS HERE: New posts go at the BOTTOM of the page --> |
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{{old move|date=6 April 2023|from=Kim Jong-il|destination=Kim Jong Il|result=moved|link=Special:Permalink/1149753649#Requested move 6 April 2023}} |
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== Move discussion in progress == |
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There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Yuri Kim (ambassador)#Requested move 25 May 2022 crosspost --> —] 06:06, 25 May 2022 (UTC) |
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== A Kim here, a Kim there, and before long you're talking some real Kim == |
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Does anyone see the inherent difficulty in colloquially referring to the subject as "Kim" when the article necessarily deals with two other principals who share the family name "Kim"? ] (]) 02:52, 30 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:Kim by surname only should exclusively refer to ], who is the subject of this article. If there are specific instances that's ambiguous, use the full name. This should be the case with any other bio article, and I don't think such edits would be deemed controversial so it should be free of edit wars, in theory. --] (]) 14:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC) |
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==Edit request== |
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{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}} |
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{{noredirect|Юрий Ким}} ({{langx|ru|Yuri Kim}}; the recorded birth name in the article) redirects here. Please add a hatnote to handle the situation. |
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{{tlx|redirect|Юрий Ким|other people|Yuri Kim (disambiguation)}} |
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{{redirect|Юрий Ким|other people|Yuri Kim (disambiguation)}} |
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-- ] (]) 21:21, 7 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> This is English Misplaced Pages not Russian Misplaced Pages, a redirect of Russian title to the English title is not a valid reason for such inclusion. '''<span style="color:#f535aa">—</span> ] <span style="color:#f535aa">(] • ])</span>''' 13:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC) |
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== Typo Fix == |
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In the section Ascension to Power, subheading Initial Career, the last sentence of the second paragraph has a typo. "...indicating that Kim Il-sung '''bight''' have already planned for Jong-il to succeed him as leader." ] (]) 21:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2022 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Kim Jong-il|answered=yes}} |
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] (]) 10:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC) |
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Birth date |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ]'''</span></sup>]] 10:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC) |
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== Eternal General Secretary vs. Eternal Chairman == |
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{| class="wikitable" |
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! Method |
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! Eternal General Secretary |
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! Eternal Chairman |
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| Google search |
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{{Ping|TaerkastUA}} What settings are you using for your "cursory Google searches"? Mine return greater results for Eternal General Secretary each time. Even if you search the exact phrases "Eternal General Secretary Kim" and "Eternal Chairman Kim", you still get greater results for the former. </nowiki>.] |
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Eternal General Secretary is the more common posthumous title for Kim Jong-il because the General Secretary of the WPK was a more prominent position than the Chairman of the NDC. Eternal Chairman has always been a secondary title, like how Chairman of the NDC was a secondary title for Kim Jong-il during his lifetime. |
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It's also worth noting that Google Search (i.e. just the general search engine) is a terrible measure because it includes self-published material (including social media), which often copies sites like Misplaced Pages without much thought. "Generalissimo Kim Jong-il" for example returns a significant number of results, but no reliable secondary sources use "Generalissimo" in this manner, nor do any official English sources from the DPRK. An editor on the English Misplaced Pages made the translation themselves and nobody questioned it for years, and now YouTube videos, blogs, and other social media parrot it even though it has never been reliably attributed. <big>]]</big> 00:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Move discussion in progress == |
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There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Kim Jong-un#Requested move 6 April 2023 crosspost --> —] 17:31, 6 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== Birth place == |
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== Infobox Picture change? == |
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The Korean wikipedia as well as state that Kim was born in Camp '''Voroshilov''' near ]. They further mention that his father Kim Il-sung came to '''Vyatskoye''' only in July 1942. Moreover, Namu Wiki mentions that the widespread belief of Kim being born in Vyatskoye stems from a guerilla fighter named Ri Jae-dok (리재덕) without any further reference given. Anyways, there is also the book , where it says on page 121, that Kim was born in either Voroshilov or Vyatskoye. Moreover, there is , where Lim claims on pages 9-10, that Kim cannot have been born in Vyatskoye and that his birth place should be Voroshilov, because that is where Kim Il-sung was until July 1942. --] (]) 18:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC) |
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Should Jong-Il's picture in the infobox be changed to the posthumous portrait of him which was released after his death? ] (]) 13:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2021 == |
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:No, per ]. Kim's official posthumous portrait is an idealised, drawn picture of him. The current portrait of him in the infobox is an actual photograph taken of him while he was alive; as such a photo exists, there is no need to use a drawn picture. <big>]]</big> 21:14, 19 April 2023 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Kim Jong-il|answered=yes}} |
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In the first paragraph, change "He led North Korea from the 1994 death of his father Kim Il-sung, the first Supreme Leader until his own death in 2011, when he was succeeded by his son, Kim Jong-un. " to "He led North Korea from the 1994 death of his father — Kim Il-sung, the first Supreme Leader — until his own death in 2011, when he was succeeded by his son, Kim Jong-un." |
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== Yuri Irsenovich Kim == |
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This would fix the ambiguity of the sentence. ] (]) 06:15, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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This the claimed birth name of Kim Jong Il in Russia. Is there any evidence that was his actual birth name? ] (]) 13:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp -->. ] (]) 08:38, 21 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{cquote|{{highlight|Is there any evidence}} that was his actual birth name?}} |
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== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion == |
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:Well, there's three sources cited for that claim. Maybe you can look at those first and critique them instead of asking a silly question? <big>]]</big> 23:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC) |
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: |
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* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-18T11:15:23.966344 | Grand People's Study House 08.JPG --> |
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 11:15, 18 March 2021 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2024 == |
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==Shigemura theory of Kim's 2003 death== |
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Why is it even included? The guy clearly didn't have a clue. ] (]) 05:53, 1 June 2021 (UTC) |
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:If it had "baffled foreign intelligence agencies for years" it sounds like a highly relevant issue, even if it turned out to be false. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– ]</span> (] ⋅ ]) 07:24, 1 June 2021 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Kim Jong Il|answered=yes}} |
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::If there is a record of their "bafflement" aside from Shigemura's own self-promotion, maybe a more representative set of examples can be mentioned. ] (]) 04:12, 2 June 2021 (UTC) |
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Replace {{tl|family name hatnote}}, then place with {{tl|family name footnote}} in the lead sentence. ] (]) 12:29, 24 February 2024 (UTC) |
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: ] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> I think it is better to have the visibility at the top of the article. ] (]) 02:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Koryo-saram? == |
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== Kim Jong Il date of death == |
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Just realized; can he really be considered a ]? To my understanding, Koryo-saram aren't just Soviet Koreans (of which there are also ], who are often excluded from the Koryo-saram label), they're Koreans who were subjected to the ]. None of the Kim family was subject to this deportation. |
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Kim Jong Il died either late Dec. 2012 or early Jan 2013. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:48, 13 December 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Is there any reliable sources calling him as such? It doesn't appear that there's any on the article itself. I may just remove altogether for now; please revert and discuss if disagree. ] (]) 08:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion == |
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: |
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* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2022-01-08T14:22:21.039801 | DPRK-Army-OF-12.svg --> |
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 14:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC) |
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Does anyone see the inherent difficulty in colloquially referring to the subject as "Kim" when the article necessarily deals with two other principals who share the family name "Kim"? rowley (talk) 02:52, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
In the section Ascension to Power, subheading Initial Career, the last sentence of the second paragraph has a typo. "...indicating that Kim Il-sung bight have already planned for Jong-il to succeed him as leader." Alberto996 (talk) 21:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
Eternal General Secretary is the more common posthumous title for Kim Jong-il because the General Secretary of the WPK was a more prominent position than the Chairman of the NDC. Eternal Chairman has always been a secondary title, like how Chairman of the NDC was a secondary title for Kim Jong-il during his lifetime.
It's also worth noting that Google Search (i.e. just the general search engine) is a terrible measure because it includes self-published material (including social media), which often copies sites like Misplaced Pages without much thought. "Generalissimo Kim Jong-il" for example returns a significant number of results, but no reliable secondary sources use "Generalissimo" in this manner, nor do any official English sources from the DPRK. An editor on the English Misplaced Pages made the translation themselves and nobody questioned it for years, and now YouTube videos, blogs, and other social media parrot it even though it has never been reliably attributed. Yue🌙 00:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Is there any reliable sources calling him as such? It doesn't appear that there's any on the article itself. I may just remove altogether for now; please revert and discuss if disagree. toobigtokale (talk) 08:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
.svg){kind=small}
Not done: This is English Misplaced Pages not Russian Misplaced Pages, a redirect of Russian title to the English title is not a valid reason for such inclusion. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Terasail 10:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)