| Revision as of 15:01, 13 December 2023 editSkitash (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers11,805 edits →Edomites: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit |
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{{WikiProject Ethnic groups |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Ethnic groups |class=C |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Arab world |importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Yemen |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Palestine|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Western Asia |class=C |importance=high |Bahrain=yes |Bahrain-importance=high |Kuwait=yes |Kuwait-importance=high |Qatar=yes |Qatar-importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Palestine|class=C|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Africa |importance=High |Libya=yes |Libya-importance=high |Tunisia=yes |Tunisia-importance=Top |Somalia=yes |Somalia-importance=high}} |
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{{Copied|from=Arabs|from_oldid=754076258|to=Arab identity|diff={{fullurl:Special:Diff/754078242}}|date=10 December 2016}} |
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== Wrong information == |
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== RfC about arabs being ethnolinguistic group == |
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This is just generalizing on entire groups of people with different cultures and ancestries that they are all Arabs. This article like ] is entirely misleading. There are Arabic speaking people ] of Iranian Ancestry and ] of origin, further more ] and ] in generally have completely ] (same with ] most of which are ]) and history and ] influenced by their older languages. The ethnic Arabs are those with high level of J1 Haplogroup such as Yemen and Saudi, and that's it. Actual Arabs are a minority everywhere else. ] (]) 16:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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<!-- ] 17:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1692723711}} |
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recently there have been a debate on whether arabs are ethnolinguistic group or not. |
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:You appear to be conflating ethnicity with haplogroups. ] (]) 17:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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there are many reliable sources stating clearly that arabs are ethnolinguistic group: |
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::I understand the distinction you're drawing, but ethnicity is about more than just language. It's a complex combination of shared cultural practices, language, history, and sometimes genetic ancestry. My point is that labeling entire populations as "Arabs" based solely on the fact that they speak Arabic today ignores the diverse ethnic and cultural backgrounds of these groups. |
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::For example, many people in Bahrain ], despite speaking Arabic, retain distinct Persian cultural and ancestral ties—our cuisine, music, language, and traditions have been preserved over time. Similarly, North Africans, like the ], have their own rich history and culture, which predates the introduction of Arabic. These differences are often reflected in local dialects, influenced by older languages and cultures. |
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::Haplogroups, while not the sole determinant of ethnicity, are helpful in understanding deep ancestral origins, especially when discussing the relatively small populations of ethnic Arabs (e.g., in Yemen and parts of Saudi Arabia) compared to the broader Arabic-speaking world. |
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::According to Cambridge, is a noun that refers to a large group of people who have the same national, ], or ] origins, or the state of belonging to such a group - we share none of that with Syrians or Egyptians, we don't speak the same dialect, our culture is entirely different, and we never ever felt like we belong to such groups, they look nothing like us, have different dialects, have different cultures, and our history is entirely different. |
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::Last but not least; I was brainwashed to identify as Arab as a child in school (how is that consensual?) and did so for some time, and then we got older and realize we're all not Arabs. So whatever you say or write, we will always remain as such. I am proud of being able to speak Arabic (Bahraini-which is heavily influenced by Persian), but that's were our similarities end, many words in our dialect are not even understood by Egyptians and co. I also speak English, and Persian, both Bushehri and Iranian/Tehrani,so what am I then? |
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::Moreover, of scholars like ] and ] to Arab culture is factually incorrect. ] (]) 19:03, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Map == |
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* “Nor are Arabs a race, but they can be loosely defined as an ethnic group or, more accurately, as an ethnolinguistic group.”<ref name=":0">{{Cite book |last=Waxman |first=Dov |url=https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=wTCPDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&dq=Nor+are+Arabs+a+race,+but+they+can+be+loosely+defined+as+an+ethnic+group+or,+more+accurately,+as+an+ethnolinguistic+group.&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiy65ea6JSAAxX7bKQEHYDCBeYQ6AF6BAgNEAM#v=onepage&q=Nor%20are%20Arabs%20a%20race,%20but%20they%20can%20be%20loosely%20defined%20as%20an%20ethnic%20group%20or,%20more%20accurately,%20as%20an%20ethnolinguistic%20group.&f=false |title=The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: What Everyone Needs to Know® |date=2019-04-01 |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=978-0-19-062534-4 |language=en |quote=Nor are Arabs a race, but they can be loosely defined as an ethnic group or, more accurately, as an ethnolinguistic group.}}</ref> |
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* “Arabs are the largest ethnolinguistic group”<ref>{{Cite book |last=Stewart |first=Dona J. |url=https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=tXGTAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA29&dq=arabs+ethnolinguistic+group&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlz-C_r5SAAxX3U6QEHXr_Be84WhDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=arabs%20ethnolinguistic%20group&f=false |title=The Middle East Today: Political, Geographical and Cultural Perspectives |date=2008-12-22 |publisher=Routledge |isbn=978-1-135-98079-5 |language=en}}</ref> |
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* “not only are Arabs the overwhelmingly dominant ethnolinguistic group …”<ref>{{Cite book |last=Held |first=Colbert |url=https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=WyZhDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT132 |title=Middle East Patterns, Student Economy Edition: Places, People, and Politics |date=2018-10-03 |publisher=Routledge |isbn=978-0-429-97307-9 |language=en}}</ref> |
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The map in the lede is a bit misleading. Rather than grading on amount of Arabs on each country, it should be done on the percentage of the population being Arab. ] (]) 12:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:The percentages are not mentioned in the article. ] (]) 12:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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sources stating the importance and centrality of arabic language in Arab ethnic identity: |
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::Good point ] (]) 12:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semitic language == |
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* “the Arabic language is perhaps the single most important aspect of Arab identity”<ref>{{Cite book |last=Nasr |first=Seyyed Hossein |url=https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=Gi5vbnoAGm4C&pg=PA918 |title=Routledge History of World Philosophies |date=1996 |publisher=Taylor & Francis |isbn=978-0-415-13160-5 |language=en}}</ref> |
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* “Language and Identity in the Arab World explores the inextricable link between language and identity, referring particularly to the Arab world.”<ref>{{Cite book |last=Rashdi |first=Fathiya Al |url=https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=c-p5EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA3 |title=Language and Identity in the Arab World |last2=Mehta |first2=Sandhya Rao |date=2022-09-05 |publisher=Taylor & Francis |isbn=978-1-000-61305-6 |language=en}}</ref> |
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* some reliable sources even went as far as defining an Arab as: “a person from Western Asia or North Africa who speaks Arabic as a first language”<ref>{{Cite web |title=Arab |url=https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/arab |website=Cambridge Dictionary |publisher=Cambridge University Press & Assessment}}</ref> |
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Semitic is a proto-language or a family. The article should not reference a "Semitic language", because it is not an attested language. It is only known through historical reconstruction. ] (]) 09:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:"Semitic language" is the ordinary way to characterize a language as a member of the Semitic language family, in the same way that we say English is an Indo-European language, Malagasy is an Austronesian language, etc. ] (]) 16:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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'''Important.''' there are some important things you need to be aware of before replying: |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2024 == |
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* ], like ], Are ]. Ethnolinguistic groups share ethnicity. So when some sources say that arabs are an ethnic group, and others say arabs are ethnolinguistic group. Describing arabs as ethnolinguistic group will fulfill both sources. |
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* Try avoiding personal opinions and personal philosophies about what an Arab is as much as you can. If you want to falsify any of the reliable sources above then provide a reliable source that falsifies or contradicts it rather than just personal opinions. |
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{{edit extended-protected|Arabs|answered=yes}} |
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First sentence of fourth paragraph states 'during the middle ages arabs fostered a vast arab union'. This should be changed to something such as 'After the emergence of Islam in the 7th century an unprecedented conquest established a vast Arab empire'. The term 'arab union' is highly anachronistic and the accompanying description fails to capture the reality of this remarkable and violent (see: fostered) event. ] (]) 19:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 09:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== The map colours are very misleading == |
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'''goal of this rfc:''' |
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The black and dark green colours are too similar, which could lead to a misconception thinking Brazil and Turkey are Arabic or something. I propose using a different colour scale for non-Arabic countries. ] ]<sup>/</sup>] 08:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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describing Arabs as ethnolinguistic group rather just ethnic group in the lead of ] article because it is more accurate and descriptive<ref name=":0" />, and goes in agreement with a wider range of reliable sources (i.e sources that describes arabs as ethnolinguistic group and those who describe the centrality and importance of arabic language in Arab ethnic identity). |
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'''Hint:''' Arabs and their case is identical to ]. ] (]) 16:39, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*''' Strong oppose''' and suggest a speedy close. This is a joke and not a RfC. First, there is nothing remotely neutral in the wall of text by the biased editor who's not even supposed to edit the contentious article and is actually blocked for edit warring. Second, there has been no recent debate about the issue (just some mumbo jumbo about them having gained imaginary consensus). ] (]) 17:36, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose''': Stephan rostie is clearly trying to push a POV here while ignoring the 16 sources right next to "The Arabs are an ethnic group". The fact that they have edit warred against multiple editors shows that they're not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 10:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Hi skitash. Thanks for your contribution with us. |
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*:{{Tq|ignoring the 16 sources right next to "The Arabs are an ethnic group".}}. |
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*:apparently you didn’t read the content written above because if did you would have known that ], like ] are ]. All ethnolinguistic and ethnoreligous groups are ethnic groups, but not all ethnic groups are necessarily ethnolinguistic or ethnoreligous groups. So when stating that arabs are ethnolinguistic group like many sources do as the ones above it fulfills both the source saying that arabs are ethnic groups as well as the sources stating that arabs are ethnolinguistic groups. It doesn’t contradict any of the sources you referred to and in fact fulfills them. But the difference is that it is more accurate <ref name=":0" /> (as reliable sources directly and clearly stating), and goes in agreement with a wider range of reliable sources like those saying arabs are ethnolinguistic group and those stating the importance and centrality of arabic language in Arab ethnic identity. So what do you think about it (per reliable sources) ? And please assume a good faith and stop personalization.] (]) 14:02, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*::{{tq|All ethnolinguistic and ethnoreligous groups are ethnic groups, but not all ethnic groups are necessarily ethnolinguistic or ethnoreligous groups. So when stating that arabs are ethnolinguistic group like many sources do as the ones above it fulfills both the source saying that arabs are ethnic groups as well as the sources stating that arabs are ethnolinguistic groups. It doesn’t contradict any of the sources you referred to and in fact fulfills them. }} You have it exactly backwards. If: |
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*::*there are two sets, S1 and S2; |
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*::*everybody agrees that S2 is a subset of S1 (for example, that ethnolinguistic groups are included in the set of ethnic groups, as you've stated); |
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*::*some people believe that X is a member of S2; and |
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*::*the rest of the people believe that X is a member of S1 but don't agree that it's a member of S2 |
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*::then ''both'' groups agree that X is a member of S1. So if Misplaced Pages writes "X is an S1", ''that'' is going to satisfy everybody. "X is an S2", placing it in the subset, will ''not'' satisfy everybody. ] (]) 16:19, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::{{Tq| the rest of the people believe that X is a member of S1 but don't agree that it's a member of S2}} |
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*:::the point here is that there is no source disagreeing that X is a member of S2 to begin with !, if you note one then please provide it. '''There is no disagreement or contradiction among sources about it (being ethnolinguistic group) to begin with'''. So i just want to know why are ] being rejected if there is no disagreement with other sources and go in agreement with a wider range of sources ?, while at the same time, in fact, reliable sources even state that it’s more accurate to describe X as member of S2 than S1 <ref name=":0"/>. So what is the basis of the rejection ? ] (]) 16:57, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::If that was your point, then you wasted some of my time by writing something that conveyed a different point, the one I responded to. As for RS, if your claim as to what they say is correct, then that's a good point. ] (]) 21:43, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*::I already know what an ethnolinguistic group is, thank you. Adding that to the lead is really unnecessary and redundant, especially when there are already many sources which correctly identify Arabs as an ethnic group. The majority of sources say that they're an ethnic group and we should stick to that. Besides, language isn't the only thing Arabs share. Not all Arabs speak Arabic, and many speak other languages as their native language, such as speakers of South Arabian languages in Yemen. ] (]) 19:03, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::{{Tq|Adding that to the lead is really unnecessary and redundant}} |
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*:::How is following reliable sources redundant and unnecessary ? You are rejecting ], as far as i know you need to provide reliable sources that contradicts or disagree with it to do that. The sources saying arabs are ethnic groups goes hand in hand with sources saying arabs are ethnic groups, as all ethnolinguistic groups are inherently ethnic groups, '''but not all''' ethnic groups are ethnolinguistic groups. |
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*:::{{Tq| The majority of sources say that they're an ethnic group and we should stick to that.}} |
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*:::and there are many sources saying they are ethnolinguistic groups, again, no contradition, defining arabs as ethnolinguistic group fulfills them all, “ ethnolinguistic group” is the equivalent of saying (ethno) “arabs are an ethnic group …” but with adding other extra important information about their being which is (linguistic)“whose language plays an exceptional important role in their ethnicity and ethnic identity”.and in fact, reliable sources even say that it’s more accurate to call arabs ethnolinguistic group than just ethnic group. <ref name=":0" /> the cited sources (which say that arabs are generally ethnic group) don’t deny nor contradict that (that it is more accurate to describe arabs as ethnolinguistic or arabs being ethnolinguistic group), so on what basis should we reject or falsify the sources and omit a such important information ?. And above that, it goes in more agreement with other sources that emphasizes on the exceptional importance of arabic language in arab ethnicity as in the sources mentioned above. |
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*:::{{Tq| language isn't the only thing Arabs share. Not all Arabs speak Arabic}} of course !, nor religion is the only thing jews share, there are atheist ethnic jews, and language isn’t the only thing slavs share, there are slavs who don’t speak slavic languages for several reasons and are still ethnic slavs. That’s basically why they are '''ethno'''linguistic and '''ethno'''religous groups. |
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*:::{{Tq|such as speakers of South Arabian languages in Yemen.}} not all yemenis and omanis are ethnically arabs, in fact, ancient south arabians who spoke south arabian languages as ], ], and ] weren’t ethnically arabs. Anyway, thanks for sharing your rationale with us.] (]) 19:29, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Robust oppose''': It's essential to recognize and respect the multifaceted nature of identity and culture. Language is undoubtedly a significant aspect of any ethnic group, including the Arabs. However, limiting the discussion of an ethnic group solely to its language can indeed be overly simplistic and exclusionary. If you wish to discuss this matter, it is preferable to do so within the context of an article focused on the ], as Arabs are indeed considered an ethnic group by definition. ] (]) 18:25, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*:{{Tq|Language is undoubtedly a significant aspect of any ethnic group, including the Arabs.}}. Yes indeed, but language for ] as Arabs (per sources) and ], like for religion for ] as ], hold a special position in their ethnic identity and ethnic being as stated in reliable sources above. And that’s why many reliable sources defined arabs as ethnolinguistic group, and even ] saying that it is more accurate to define arabs ethnolinguistic group than just ethnic group.<ref name=":0"/> |
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*:{{Tq| as Arabs are indeed considered an ethnic group by definition}}. |
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*:Again, let me confirm, ], like ] '''are ethnic groups'''. There is no disagreement or contradiction between sources to begin with, all ethnolinguistic groups and ethnoreligous groups are ethnic groups, but not all ethnic groups are ethnolinguistic and ethnoreligous groups. So may you tell us what is you basis for rejecting ] if sources are in agreement with each others ? ] (]) 19:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''', in principle, though I doubt this RFC is going places. This article gross oversimplifies Arab identity. Arab peoples form an ethnolinguistic group is the truest meaning of the term in that the most common thread between all Arab peoples is their language. Beyond language, Arab identity (including ethnic identity) is highly diverse, reflecting the rich tapestry of the Arab world's peoples and history. There are multiple layers of Arab identity at work in the Middle East and North Africa, from purely linguistic association (and little more than this, e.g.: the Maronites) through to deeply tribal identity still rooted in the Bedouin past. The current lead of this page says Arab people share common ancestry, which is a highly dubious statement at best and a good example of the gross reductionism and generalization that is at work here. And if Britannica's version of "according to tradition" is the best anyone could come up with to support this, then that bodes poorly for the overall level of verification and sourcing on the page. ] (]) 20:35, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{re|Iskandar323}} Does that mean that someone who doesn't speak Arabic is not an Arab? Equally, does it also mean that if someone speaks Arabic, then they must be Arab? ] (]) 22:34, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::You can imagine your same question as being asked about a ]. And it’s answer will be the same answer. |
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:::Skitash asked the same question and he was answered in details and with real-time examples. Check it out. ] (]) 22:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Please do me a favour and refrain from replying to my comments. The non-neutral RfC aside, you have literally ] the process to death with your colourful walls of text. ] (]) 23:02, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::I think you there is a misunderstanding. I am not replying to you. your sarcastic and personalizing comment about the RfC alone is enough for anyone to not think about opening a talk with you. I am replying for the users and readers who will come and read that. Anyway, thanks for the “bludgeoned” link, i never knew that it was even a thing. one is knowing new things about WP policies everyday i guess :) ] (]) 23:25, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I mean ... on the face of it, no to both. E.g. when Arabs become expatriates, even if their languages falters, their linguistic connections to Arab culture remain, in their family names, their foodstuffs and other cultural references. As with any ethnic identity, their connectivity to their Arab identity will evolve and change depending on their personal circumstances. Thus, while not speaking Arabic does not make you not Arab, a generation or two of detachment from Arabic language can quite quickly make individuals feel less or not attached to any Arab identity. Conversely, speaking Arabic will not make you Arab, because it is still an ''ethno''-linguistic identity. Just because language is key does not mean other cultural attachments are meaningless. Someone who speaks Arabic but has not grown up in an Arab society has not been imbued with the full cultural milieu that forms an Arab identity. They will likely identify as something else. But ultimately, gradual cultural assimilation is ''exactly'' how the Arab conquests proceeded, with entire societies becoming slowly Arabizing under a tribal Arab elite. As Patricia Crone puts it: {{tq|"Where the Romans built up their empire over centuries, the Arabs carved out theirs in less than one In the first centuries after the conquests, all native converts were Arabized, and Arabization continued thereafter too in Iraq, Syria, and Egypt, while Arabic everywhere remained the high cultural language ..."}} ] (]) 05:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' No opinion on the article. But this looks like a complete abuse of the RfC process to me. I am not at all a fan of procedural closes, but I don't think this should be allowed to continue. ] (]) 01:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Copied over from my ]: |
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*:{{tq|hey !,}} |
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*:{{tq|You recently commented on ]}} |
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*:{{tq|with that you think it is abuse of rfc. Can you elaborate why do you think that exactly ? And what should i do or have done ?] (]) 02:24, 20 July 2023 (UTC)}} ] (]) 14:43, 20 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*::Given that you haven't been editing for long it is understandable that you are not familiar with all the rules. So the fact that you edited an article in a ] area without the required number of edits is absolutely excusable. So is unfamiliarity with rules on ]. But the way this RfC is formulated is so far from neutral that in my opinion any result would be unusable. See ] for information on how to write an RfC. What I would recommend for future RfCs is to first discuss with others how the RfC should be worded. Ideally even when people can't agree on the issue they can at least agree on the options that should be presented. Only if that fails should you consider unilaterally formulating an RfC. And that RfC should be ''short'' and ''neutral''. As a rule of thumb, if you can tell from the way the RfC is formulated which option the writer prefers it is not neutral. In this instance a neutral RfC could look like this: |
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*::Should the opening sentence say that |
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*::a) Arabs are an ]? |
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*::b) Arabs are an ]? |
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*::] (]) 14:59, 20 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' The RfC is a non starter, simply because it lacks merit. Arabs are accurately described as an ethnic group. Perhaps a '''procedural close''' given the canvassing by the OP (which led to the lone support vote) and the clearly POV starting statement. ] (]) 08:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' One last comment to clarify a few things befor closing. The Arab people can be classified in various ways, such as ethnosocial, ethnolinguistic, ], and ], considering factors such as ] and ], among others. All these classifications contribute to defining the current ethnic group without excluding any factor at the expense of others. |
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# There are approximately 50 million expatriate Arabs, and between 20 and 30 million reside in South America. Most of them, however, do not speak Arabic; instead, they identify as Arabs through their ancestors and their ethnic heritage. |
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:: Key aspects of ] include: Language - Traditions and Customs - History and Heritage - Religion and Beliefs - Food and Cuisine - Art, Music, and Literature - Clothing and Fashion - Geographical Location. |
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* Comparing Arabs and Slavs is like comparing Portuguese to Italians who speak ]. Arabs speak Arabic, which is understood by most Arabs, albeit with regional dialects. The Arabic language belongs to the Semitic language family, along with languages like Hebrew, Aramaic, and Maltese. On the other hand, Russian and Macedonian are both Slavic languages, but they have distinct grammatical structures and vocabularies, it difficult to understand each other without prior learning of the other language. ] (]) 18:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''': The RfC makes little sense in the first place, not to mention that the question is ignoring a number of relevant sources. — ''']''' ] 23:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''': There is no comparison between the Arabs and Slavs, it is a ridiculous comparison. The Arabs are an ethnic group that shares their own characteristics, just like any other ethnic group. In Portugal, there are Arabs who do not speak Arabic at all but ethnically identify themselves as Arabs. This should be closed. ] (]) 17:53, 2 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:{{ping|Portoseecalm}} in New York, just as for every major global city, there are lots of people who ethnically identify as Slavs but do not speak a Slavic language. Slavs and Arabs are absolutely equivalent concepts – i.e. a trans-national macro identity across states and dialects, bound fundamentally by a disparate but related language family. ] (]) 10:41, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Partially agree, with suggestion''': The nominator has a point, and many of the commentators have not read the post in full. There also appears to be a poor understanding here of both the history of the term Arab, and what it means today. And a poor understanding of what ethnic identity is more broadly - this is a problem in many ethnic group articles in the encyclopedia. |
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:Beating down the nominator here will not fix the wider problems, such as too many ethnic-group articles being written from an ] viewpoint, incorrectly implying that ethnicity equals genealogical descent, and not acknowledging that ethnicity is at its core a very personal matter. |
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:<u>An Arab is simply a person who identifies as such,</u> via one or more of many possible cultural connections. As the nominator says, this is true for Slavs, and many other ethnic groups. |
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:If there is opposition to the concept of "ethnolinguistic group", because it is true that not everyone who considers themselves Arab speaks the language, we can instead state that the genesis of the modern Arab identity was language-based. Language is what created the modern Arab identity, a fact central to every work on modern Arab ]. |
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:] (]) 21:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::I disagree, but thats beyond the point here.{{pb}}RFC is about whether or not to describe the group as an <s>ethnoreligious</s> <u>ethnolinguistic</u> group - Which would be inaccurate.{{pb}}Whether or not language was relevant to the formation of the identity is a separate discussion. ] (]) 07:45, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|CapnJackSp}} did you mean ethnoreligious or ethnolinguistic? |
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:::On your second sentence, it was foundational so can’t be truly separate. |
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:::I would be very interested to understand what the oppose commentators here think an ethnolinguistic group is. Do you think there is no such thing? Is there a better example you can think of? ] (]) 09:05, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::They clearly meant ethnolinguistic (as they are referring to the RfC). It's also fair to assume that everyone in here knows what it means. ] (]) 09:13, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Yeah, mistyped. Fairly obvious though, you get the point. ] (]) 09:25, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Thanks {{ping|CapnJackSp|M.Bitton}} could you both provide an example of an ethnolinguistic group? Just one is enough. ] (]) 09:35, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Sure, . Feel free to reach out if you need help in understanding terms in future as well. Cheers, ] (]) 09:44, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{ping|CapnJackSp}} thanks for your help and for your offer of future support as well. This kind of collaboration is the best of our project. |
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:::::::I looked at your helpful list, and thought ] would be a good example of a large yet cohesive group, which also has “ethno-linguistic group” in the first sentence of its article. Could you kindly provide one characteristic of Tamils that is different to that of Arabs, such that you consider Tamils are an ethnolinguistic group but Arabs are not? Just one characteristic will be enough. ] (]) 10:29, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::I don't see the point of this ], but while we're at it, we might as well compare them to Italians. ] (]) 10:43, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Thanks {{ping|M.Bitton}} do you think Italians are or are not an ethnolinguistic group? ] (]) 10:50, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Again, I'm not really sure how my beliefs are relevant, but since you ask, I'd say that all ethnic groups are ethnolinguistic in one way or another. ] (]) 10:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::See our article ]: |
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:::::::::::{{tq| Depending on which source of ] is emphasized to define membership, the following types of (often mutually overlapping) groups can be identified: |
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:::::::::::* ], emphasizing shared ], ] (and possibly ]){{snd}}example: ] |
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:::::::::::* ], emphasizing a shared ] or sense of ]{{snd}}example: ] |
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:::::::::::* ], emphasizing shared physical appearance based on phenotype {{snd}}example: ] |
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:::::::::::* ], emphasizing a distinct local sense of belonging stemming from relative geographic isolation{{snd}}example: ] of ] |
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:::::::::::* ], emphasizing shared affiliation with a particular religion, denomination or sect{{snd}}example: ] |
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:::::::::::* Ethno-cultural, emphasizing shared ] or ], often overlapping with other forms of ethnicity{{snd}}example: ] |
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:::::::::::}} |
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:::::::::::This list provides excellent examples of ethnic groups which are not ethnolinguistic. ] (]) 14:25, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Thanks, but I did say all "ethnic groups", meaning all groups that are defined as such. As for the above: in the ] article for instance, the ] are cited as an example. In their main article, they are described as an "an Arab ethnoreligious group". ] (]) 14:34, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Perhaps this offers a route to a middle ground. We could harmonize both terms along the lines of the Arabs being "an ethnic group of the ethnolinguistic type" - in that way neglecting none of the sources. ] (]) 17:46, 5 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::I don't agree with that and in any case, the result of the RfC is pretty clear. ] (]) 18:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::That's like calling a pet "a dog of the poodle type" to avoid saying it's "a poodle". Whatever problem one might think that would solve, it won't. ] (]) 18:25, 5 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:* '''comment'''. I just revised many of the sources which is cited for saying that “arabs are ethnic group” in the article. Apparently Some of it are vandalism, and others are not specialized sources about the Arabs or even the middle east. All The following sources are the sources cited in the article as supposedly saying “arabs are ethnic group”. Here are what i found for now: |
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:# “''Whatever 'Arab' has meant in the past – marginal camel herds, cultic guardians, tribal raiders – '''it now means, primarily, users of the Arabic language'''.''” () |
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:# “''arab ethnicity is difficult to define. it is generally accepted that '''it is primarily based on speaking the arabic language.'''''” () |
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:# “''As Persians, Syrians, Copts, Berbers and others flocked to the fold of Islam '''and married Arabians''', the original high wall raised earlier between Arabians and non-Arabians tumbled down. The nationality of the moslem receded into the background. No matter what his nationality may have been originally, the follower of Muhammed now passed for an Arab. an Arab henceforth '''now became one who professed islam and spoke and wrote the Arabic tongue, regardless of his racial affiliation.'''''” (), alongside this, I couldn’t find where in the source does it states that the modern term “Arabs” means ethnic group. |
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:# “''In essence, '''in modern times, an Arab is generally someone who speaks Arabic as a mother or primary tongue, or, in the case of Arabs living in the diaspora, who identifies ethnically'''''” and “''Yet because of the ethnic, religious, and linguistic diversity within the Middle East, '''the term “Arab” itself must be understood''' as a loose shorthand referring to people from countries that are predominantly Arabic speaking, though some of them speak Arabic as a second language and may not identify ethnically as Arab at all.''“ () |
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:# ”''In any case, one ought to '''be very cautious about thinking of “Arab” as an ethnic archetype'''. Just as the Arabic language has many dialects, '''Arabic speakers come in all shapes, sizes, and colors'''. Indeed, like most ethnicities, the term “Arab” has, at best, a very imprecise relationship to any physical or cultural attributes.''” () |
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:these were the most reliable and most specialized on Arabs sources cited in the article as supposedly supporting the notion of the modern term “Arab” meaning “just a mere ethnic group” and “arabic have nothing to do with Arab ethnic identity or formation”. The inclusion of these sources suggests that the one who added it didn’t bother to read the sources itself. the rest of the cited sources have passing mention of Arabs and/or not comparable in reliability as the above sources or even have any specialization in the topic. perhaps the only two reliable and specialized sources that didn’t go with much cohesion with all these reliable sources above are that of which says: "''“'''Arab'''” (in '''anthropology''') is a primarily ethnic term denoting a people defined by a '''common language''' and '''putative''' common descent.''", though it did assert about the common language property in defining Arabs and confirmed that the meaning of the term have been continuously changing throughout history: "''the historical transformation of the meaning of the word ʿarab has been a continuous process''". |
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:Outside the sources cited in the Arab ethnicity note in the article, other sources like agrees with the above sources: “''Arab, Any member of the Arabic-speaking peoples native to the Middle East and North Africa.''”, in addition to the sources already cited when the RfC was posted. It seems that the overwhelming majority of the most reliable and specialized sources support describing Arabs as ethnolinguistic group (as described by many reliable sources already) rather than a mere ethnic group. I request from the respectable editors @], @], @], @], @], @], @], who voted to reconsider their stances after the news i provided above from the sources that is cited to supposedly argue that “Arabs are a mere ethnic group” or that “arabic language have nothing to do with Arab ethnic identity or formation”. |
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:Thanks everyone for your contribution in advance, and pardon me for the unbalanced RfC lead. ] (]) 08:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::Yes, all of those five sources are eminently well-grounded on the subject and hit the mark. Perhaps we simply need a new "definition" section to include this top-level secondary/tertiary material. ] (]) 08:56, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{tq|argue that “Arabs are a mere ethnic group” or that “arabic language have nothing to do with Arab ethnic identity or formation|q=yes}} Nonsense! Nobody said that language has nothing to do with ethnicity. If anything, I specifically said that all ethnic groups are ethnolinguistic in some form or another (meaning that language is an intrinsic part of ethnicity). This subject covered in multiple RS (just Google "language and ethnicity" and help yourself to plenty). This simple fact about how important language is to ethnicity makes the Arabs no different from any other ethnic group and I see no reason to single them out. ] (]) 08:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|M.Bitton}} I am disappointed to see the repetition of your claim that {{tq|all ethnic groups are ethnolinguistic in some form or another (meaning that language is an intrinsic part of ethnicity)}} when the examples provided above prove beyond doubt that there are many other types of ethnicity. ] (]) 09:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::I'm disappointed to see that you failed to reply to that comment when a perfect example (taken from the very list that you supplied) was given. ] (]) 10:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::{{Tq| Nonsense!}} |
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:::can we please have a constructive discussion for a once ? |
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:::{{Tq| I specifically said that all ethnic groups are ethnolinguistic in some form or another (meaning that language is an intrinsic part of ethnicity)}} |
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:::with all due respect, that’s your personal opinion, not what any reliable source says. And it is wrong. ] have exceptional emphasize on their language as the '''most important factor''' of their ethnic vitality than the general ethnic groups. If you just clicked and opened the page of ethnolinguistic groups the first thing you will see is: |
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:::''(or ethno-linguistic group) is a group that is unified by both a common ethnicity and language. '''Most ethnic groups share a first language. However, "ethnolinguistic" is often used to emphasise that language is a major basis for the ethnic group''', especially in regard to its neighbours.'' |
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:::Not all or most ethnic groups are ethnolinguistic groups, whether they do share language as ] or not as ]. Similar to how not all ethnic groups are ethnoreligous whether they share religion or not, even though most ethnic groups do share religion as well. |
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:::Try asking or searching on Quora questions like: “are Slavs ethnic group ?”, and read the replies of average slavic people. this might help you to understand more. |
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:::also check: |
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:::] (if you haven’t checked it before) ] (]) 13:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Nope, that's the opinion of all RS that deal with the subject of "ethnicity and language". Like I said, Google it and help yourself to some decent books. As for Quora, I'll pass (I have better things to do than read some random opinion of a random nobody). In any case, rather than quote an out of context sentence, I suggest you read everything I wrote (in context) and respond there if you wish. ] (]) 13:33, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::{{Tq| Nope, that's the opinion of all RS that deal with the subject of "ethnicity and language".}} |
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:::::you mean there is a reliable source (just one source) that says all/most ethnic groups are ethnolinguistic groups ? ] (]) 13:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::What part of what I said in my previous comment (about your out of context cherry picking nonsense) don't you understand? ] (]) 13:41, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{A note}} ''Stephan rostie'' is aware of the fact that they are not supposed to participate in a RfC about this contentious subject, so the question is: why are they deliberately ignoring what ] says? ] (]) 09:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::It's not an RFC anymore; it's been delisted. It's just a discussion. ] (]) 11:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Oppose''' - Coptic people speak Arabic and do not refer to themselves as Arabs. They are Egyptian. ] (]) 10:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:It's not an RFC any more, and you seem to be refuting something that no one particularly claimed. No one has said that everyone who speaks Arabic is Arab. And you don't need to go to cases as liminal as the Copts to day otherwise, because the world contains people who study and speak Arabic, but are not Arabs. So yeah, duh, language alone doesn't define a person. This page doesn't mention the Copts, and this discussion isn't about them. ] (]) 11:54, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::If speaking Arabic doesn't necessarily make one an Arab and not speaking it doesn't exclude one from being Arab, then how can the Arabic language be described as the defining characteristic of the Arabs? ] (]) 12:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::Aren't you the first one to use the phrase 'defining characteristic' on this page? All of the sources presented above use words such as "primarily" and "generally". ] (]) 12:55, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::Does that change anything to what I said? Are the Arabs primarily/generally Muslims or are they not? ] (]) ] (]) 13:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::I'm not sure I understand the segue, but I doubt there's a definitive Pew or Gallup poll on the matter. What I do know is that there are countless religious minorities in Arabic-speaking countries, not least to mention the legion nominally Muslim people (in the sense of having a presumed faith from birth) who are actually simply agnostic or atheist. I fail to see the point here. ] (]) 15:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::::The question is very simple: are the Arabs primarily/generally Muslims or are they not? Start by answering it and then we'll talk about the point that you fail to see. ] (]) 15:16, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::::I'm not interested in a rhetorical or philosophical tussle; I'm interested in reflecting the quality secondary and tertiary sources on the matter. Religion is not a be-all and end-all for Arab identity: e.g. a Palestinian Christian is no less 'Arab' than anyone else. ] (]) 16:14, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::::::Equally, the Arabs who don't speak Arabic are no less "Arab" than anyone else. ] (]) 16:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::Sure, but ... not speaking Arabic does not mean people are not still connected to Arabic language and culture - not by a long shot. ] (]) 18:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::::::::So much for {{tq|I'm not interested in a rhetorical or philosophical tussle|q=yes}}. I give up. ] (]) 18:20, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::{{Tq|Equally, the Arabs who don't speak Arabic are no less "Arab" than anyone else.}} |
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*:::::::::Yes !, @] you are indeed right, exactly as how ] are no less “jewish” than anyone else, and American-Russians and American-Serbs who don’t know to speak a slavic language are no less “Slav” than anyone else. ] (]) 01:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::::::::Do you find quoting people out of context amusing? ] (]) 10:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::::::::I believe that is plain analogy. ] (]) 17:26, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::::::::::Give me a break. ] (]) 17:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::] |
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*::@] It's important to cultivate a more empathetic and considerate approach when interacting with others. Avoid giving the impression that you believe yourself to be more knowledgeable, and refrain from making others feel uninformed about what they already know. Instead, strive to create an atmosphere of mutual respect and understanding, valuing the perspectives of all individuals regardless of their background. If you wish to apply this matter to the Arab population and your insistence is strong, then it should be done across all ethnic groups. |
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*::Given that I am Swiss, I can confidently state that my ethnicity is Swiss. However, when we find ourselves in Switzerland coming from two distinct regions, it is more accurate to describe myself as ] (That my mother tongue is German does not mean that I am German, but rather the Swiss take from themselves an independent ethnicity. So here the Swiss are divided into an ethnolinguistic group. Another example of ethnolinguistic groups are the ]. An Afghani defines himself as an Afghani, but in the geographical scope the language plays a role in ethnolinguistic division. |
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*::In essence, the articles should cover various aspects of topics such as ethnicity, language, religion, etc. The level of discussion should be comprehensive, akin to the depth found in Misplaced Pages articles. The ultimate goal is to work collaboratively towards finding holistic solutions that can be applied universally across all ethnic groups. ] (]) 12:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::I'm happy to collaborate, but this entire discussion is born out of an entire sets of sources that present more nuanced and less blunt definitions of 'Arabs' being written off. Collaboration cannot occur until there is acknowledgement that a plurality of sources and perspectives exist on the subject. ] (]) 13:05, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:@] That’s how most reliable and specialized sources define Arabs and Arab ethnic identity as mentioned above. Note that you are arguing with the reliable sources not us. the reason these reliable sources made these definitions is not that they were unaware of small exceptions like levant Armenians for example. But because they (reliable sources) are making a general definition that fits the bulk of the defined people. Small exceptions that defies the general rule like Armenians can be mentioned on the side. ] (]) 01:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::Actually, most sources describe them as an ethnic group, they also acknowledge that they are difficult to define and then try to define them. When they mention what they think is an important factor (such as language, which is important to every ethnic group), they do it in context. ] (]) 10:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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* If there are reliable sources for "ethnic group" and reliable sources for "ethno-linguistic group" it would be reasonable for us to decide either that {{olist|"ethno-linguistic group" is a subtype of "ethnic group" and that both can be used in the article, depending on the context|or that "ethno-linguistic gorup" is not a subtype, and that there is therefore disagreement between reliable sources. In this latter case, we should use both terms and explain the disagreement, in order to comply with ].}} I am having a hard time understanding how we could come to some other conclusion. ] (] / ]) 17:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Yes, exactly. Either one is a subordinate term of the other, or they conflict. ] (]) 18:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::{{ping|Iskandar323}} You said {{tq|This page doesn't mention the Copts, and this discussion isn't about them.}} I mentioned the Copts because Stephan did mention Copts.. with {{tq|“As Persians, Syrians, Copts, Berbers and others flocked to the fold of Islam and married Arabians, the original high wall raised earlier between Arabians and non-Arabians tumbled down.}} Good day. ] (]) 22:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::Well that's a very modest and very general statement (and not Stephan's, but a source's) - yes, a "high wall" (a language, culture and marriage barrier) did come tumbling down across the region with the Arab conquests. ] (]) 04:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::You mean "the Muslim conquests". ] (]) 10:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::No I don't; I mean the for those events. ] (]) 17:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::::Good luck renaming ] (using ngram). ] (]) 17:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::::Thanks. ] (]) 18:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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* '''Book share''' - Sharing this Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License, book where I found this interesting quote, "Ethnolinguistic nationalism is ''the'' norm of political thinking and practice in today’s Central Europe, as encapsulated by the handy algebraic-like formulation, Language = Nation = State. But outside of this region (with the exception of Southeast Asia, see Map 42), the norm is different, and ordinarily, State = Nation."<ref name="Kamusella">{{cite book| first=Tomasz |last=Kamusella |title=Words in Space and Time- Historical Atlas of Language Politics in Modern Central Europe | publisher=Central European University Press | year=2021| url=https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/gdc/gdcebookspublic/20/21/04/76/36/2021047636/2021047636.pdf | access-date=August 8, 2023|page=xvi}}</ref> |
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*'''Comment''' Ethnolinguistics is one way to measure a country's ethnic structure.<ref name="Kelly 2010 d062">{{cite web | last=Kelly | first=L. | title=What is hidden behind the indicators of ethnolinguistic fragmentation | website=Semantic Scholar | date=2010 | url=https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/What-is-hidden-behind-the-indicators-of-Kelly/5d52e26c0a3dc4ace5eb30ea6eadc99bc8307db5 | access-date=August 8, 2023}}</ref> ] (]) 14:11, 8 August 2023 (UTC) |
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{{talk reflist}} |
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== Missing ref == |
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{{ping|Sarah SchneiderCH}} please fill in the definition for the ref named "gudaszewski" that you added last month.] (]) 16:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC) |
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== Sentence in lead == |
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A part of the sentence in the third paragraph of the lead doesn't make grammatical sense, specifically (my bold added): |
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" leading to significant Arab migration from the East, '''extremely to''' North Africa, under the rule of Arab empires " |
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I'm not 100% sure what this is trying to say; that the extreme edge of Arab migration was North Africa? Or that migration was extremely intense in North Africa? ] (]) 18:57, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:I removed the confusion part. ] (]) 19:37, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Thanks. My only minor further recommendation would be to word it more generally still, since Arab migrations (and Arabization) occurred across most of the caliphate. ] (]) 19:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I'm not sure about that given that the sentence is about the migration of the Arabs. ] (]) 20:13, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Abrahamic mythology == |
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Why are we treating Abrahamic mythology too seriously by giving it this much weight? This is all recent updates as far as I can remember, which have seriously reduced the article's credibility. Islam's narrative about the origin of Arabs is built on Abrahamic beliefs -the Torah was written in 500 BC- which completely contradicts historical facts written in this very same article that Arabs built civilizations 3000 BC. This conflation of historical facts and myths is extremely problematic. One possible solution is to create a new article where content in the Origins section, could be moved there, keeping only a very brief mention here; but I don't know if this fulfills WP:Notability. ] (]) 11:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:I agree that the mythology is given too much weight in both the lead and the Origins section. I'm not sure a separate article is needed as much as just a heavy trim. ] (] / ]) 13:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::I have trimmed this from the lede; but still huge chunks are remaining in the origins section, which are harder to summarize to one paragraph (maximum in my opinion). ] (]) 14:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Hyperlink change == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Arabs|answered=yes}} |
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Under the Religion subsection, at the end of the first sentence of the second paragraph, the hyperlink to the goddess Uzza links to a species of animal. This should be changed to the https://en.wikipedia.org/Al-Uzza page. ] (]) 00:45, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 03:37, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== far northwest africa as arab as arabian peninsula to the east == |
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== Edomites == |
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according to this, almost eerie map legend implying whole populations 'erased' and arabized (which does imply genetics, thus 'eerie', as in potentially irreversibly altered to 'foreigners' more likely preference). it'd be like, take italy today, with a long antique and roman history, was depicted today as much say 'russian' as very russia itself, despite the distance, and historical differences. wouldn't you at least wonder whose/if so agenda it served, to see it that way.. |
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{{ping|Skitash}} The presentation of the Edomites as one of the Arab peoples is not in the body of the article, and also the source used does not adequately support the text. ] (]) 23:29, 12 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:I reverted your changes because you were not providing an adequate explanation for them. As to the source, it indeed supports the statement, and I have added it to the body of the article. ] (]) 15:01, 13 December 2023 (UTC) |
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in the maps, morocco in the far west is depicted as arab as arabia to the far east, plus the article mentions ancestry as a continuum within the arab sphere.. well, if its indigenous ancestry, and not clear cut sudden to 'appear' at some point in history, would seem to matter.. ] (]) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
This is just generalizing on entire groups of people with different cultures and ancestries that they are all Arabs. This article like Persians is entirely misleading. There are Arabic speaking people in Bahrain of Iranian Ancestry and most Kuwaitis are Iranian of origin, further more Egyptians and North Africans in generally have completely different genetics (same with Morocans most of which are Amazigh) and history and dialects of Arabic influenced by their older languages. The ethnic Arabs are those with high level of J1 Haplogroup such as Yemen and Saudi, and that's it. Actual Arabs are a minority everywhere else. Mrox2 (talk) 16:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
The map in the lede is a bit misleading. Rather than grading on amount of Arabs on each country, it should be done on the percentage of the population being Arab. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Semitic is a proto-language or a family. The article should not reference a "Semitic language", because it is not an attested language. It is only known through historical reconstruction. 83.110.109.171 (talk) 09:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
First sentence of fourth paragraph states 'during the middle ages arabs fostered a vast arab union'. This should be changed to something such as 'After the emergence of Islam in the 7th century an unprecedented conquest established a vast Arab empire'. The term 'arab union' is highly anachronistic and the accompanying description fails to capture the reality of this remarkable and violent (see: fostered) event. Mdmagnitogorsk (talk) 19:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
The black and dark green colours are too similar, which could lead to a misconception thinking Brazil and Turkey are Arabic or something. I propose using a different colour scale for non-Arabic countries. Youprayteas 08:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
according to this, almost eerie map legend implying whole populations 'erased' and arabized (which does imply genetics, thus 'eerie', as in potentially irreversibly altered to 'foreigners' more likely preference). it'd be like, take italy today, with a long antique and roman history, was depicted today as much say 'russian' as very russia itself, despite the distance, and historical differences. wouldn't you at least wonder whose/if so agenda it served, to see it that way..
in the maps, morocco in the far west is depicted as arab as arabia to the far east, plus the article mentions ancestry as a continuum within the arab sphere.. well, if its indigenous ancestry, and not clear cut sudden to 'appear' at some point in history, would seem to matter.. 12.146.12.2 (talk) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 09:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)