| Revision as of 21:28, 15 March 2020 editGlaaaastonbury88 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users619 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 13:55, 27 December 2024 edit undoUltraodan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers1,265 edits →Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2024 |
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| quote = As Adrianne LaFrance noted in the Atlantic, there is no self-evident unifying theory about why certain Misplaced Pages pages are higher quality than others. But with its combination of primary sources, motivated contributors, and shared vision, St. Patrick’s entry could be hinting at the magic formula. |
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| quote = As Adrianne LaFrance noted in the Atlantic, there is no self-evident unifying theory about why certain Misplaced Pages pages are higher quality than others. But with its combination of primary sources, motivated contributors, and shared vision, St. Patrick’s entry could be hinting at the magic formula. |
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{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1={{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=B|listas=Patrick, Saint}} |
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{{WikiProject Christianity|class=B|importance=Top|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Top|anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Mid|saints=yes|saints-importance=Top|eastern-orthodoxy=yes|eastern orthodoxy-importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Top|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Top|anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Mid|saints=yes|saints-importance=Top|eastern-orthodoxy=yes|eastern-orthodoxy-importance=High}} |
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{{Top 25 Report|Mar 17 2013|Mar 16 2014|Mar 15 2015|Mar 13 2016|Mar 12 2017|Mar 14 2021}} |
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{{afd-merged-from|Battle for the Body of Saint Patrick|Battle for the Body of Saint Patrick|19 November 2017}} |
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== Flechner references == |
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== Lutheran saint? == |
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The text asserts that Patric is "venerated as a saint in the ... Lutheran church...". Lutheran churches do not recognize "saints" or venerate them, even though Lutheran church buildings may be named after disciples, evangelists or archangels venerated by Catholics as "saints". ] (]) 14:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC) |
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Once again, St Patrick's day comes and Roy Flechner's revisionist interpretations get front-loaded into the lede. I have moved them to their appropriate positions in the article - the lede is supposed to summarise the article. --] (]) 12:27, 20 March 2019 (UTC) |
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== Quality of Content == |
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== St. Patrick's Birthplace, Place of Burial and Shrines == |
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This is a truly dreadful article, mostly obsessed with Catholic trivia about shamrocks, bells, and visions. Patrick was actually a most important person in establishing and propagating literacy - a fundamental tool for propagating religious philosophy. Catholicism, for example. By ignoring the literacy part of Patrick's existence, this article becomes an astonishing and execrable waste of time! Is nobody here aware of this other side of Patrick's life, not to mention being able to include some relevant history? ] (]) 01:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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There is absolutely no definitive, provable birthplace or place of burial for Patrick. Surely it makes sense to use the term "possibly" along with suggestions of various, debated places of origin? E.g. "Possibly Roman Britain", "Possibly Roman France". On the subject of major shrines, surely major Irish shrines should be listed? (Croagh Patrick, for example?) Thanks. |
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:We don't really know any of this. You seem to want to replace one style of hagiographical myth-making with another. ] (]) 15:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'm again astonished that a would-be Patrick scholar would be so completely in the dark about Patrick's work as to suggest that it's simply more "hagiographical myth-making"! Here is just '''one''' example of an academic analysis of Patrick's substantial, even monumental, works from 807 A.D.: https://www.confessio.ie/manuscripts/dublin#1 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:::I'm well aware of the ''Confessio'', but I don't think Patrick actually mentions teaching reading, let alone writing, anywhere in it, though he may well have done some of that. ] (]) 02:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:I wholehearedly concur. There is a load of deliberate obfuscation here. What is the point of quoting an idiot from 130 years ago who was so arrogant as to assert that Patrick could not spell at all. You quote him as referring to "Bonaven Taburnia" when it is, of course, ''Bannavem Taburniae''. Yes... this does refer to the Roman Fort Banna on Hadrian's Wall (now usually called Birdoswald). |
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:The Bannaventa near Coventry is matched by another, now Banwen, in Wales and means "pig market". On the other hand Bannavem Taburniae means "The Boars' Inns" because when the legionaries left it became a hunting lodge complex. ] (]) 15:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Myth? == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 22 May 2019 == |
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So, is St. Patrick a myth? ] (]) 14:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Saint Patrick|answered=yes}} |
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Can you please check this: St. Patrick died about 460/461 as the article says but the date of his death given on the top says 385- 431. |
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:Err..... no, but the Catholic Church did so mess with eg his dates (for their own political reasons) as to make their story as worthless as a myth. There was a real person born c420 at Gretna who died in 493. ] (]) 15:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Thank you. ] (]) 19:21, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:Thanks for spotting that! Those incorrect years had been recently added and had been overlooked. – ''''']''''' ] 20:39, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2024 == |
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== Germanus and Catocus == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Saint Patrick|answered=yes}} |
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In tracing the mission of Germanus of Auxerre to Britain in 429, I've come across 19thc. scholarship that refers to Cattug/Catocus/Catwg as a member of that mission along with Patrick, with a suggestion that Catocus also turned up in Ireland. I can't find the sources for these assertions, and am wondering if there's any substance to them. Shtove 00:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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Add a hyperlink to 'Ireland' in the patronage that leads to the Ireland Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 21:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:What 19th century sources are you getting this from? It's very likely that Palladius was an associate of Germanus, as according to Prosper Germanus was sent to Britain by Celestine on the recommendation of a deacon called Palladius, and the same pope then appointed Palladius, presumably the same one, as the first bishop to the Irish. Perhaps your source thought Palladius and Patrick were the same person? --] (]) 11:44, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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::Thanks Here's one discussing Patrick in Germanus's mission - the lengthy '''note a''' at the foot of p.21: https://archive.org/details/councilsecclesia01hadduoft/page/21/mode/1up |
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::It does cover your suggestion of mistaking one for the other. I have somewhere another source that accepts the possible mistake at face value, but can't find it just now - and it's likely that source hasn't considered the possibility. |
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::Any inklings about Cattug/Catocus/Catwg in respect of that mission? Shtove 16:31, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Now I see where you're coming from. There is a tradition, found in Fiacc's Hymn and many of the medieval lives of Patrick, that after he escaped from slavery, he went to the continent and studied with Germanus and others. Victorian scholars tended to regard these medieval Irish texts as historical sources. Most modern scholars don't. The only authentic sources on Patrick are his Confession and Letter, which make no reference to Germanus. The later sources are all unreliable and unverifiable. In particular, the traditions associating him with Germanus, as your link points out, most likely derive from a confusion between Patrick and Palladius. |
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:::No idea about Catocus. The only person of that name I'm aware of is St. ], who is supposed to have lived the following century. --] (]) 19:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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== Potential Birthplaces in Somerset and links to Glastonbury, UK == |
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There are a few pieces of information that may add to the richness of the article and relate to potential birth places within Somerset. One being Banwell as outlined in the book "Saint Patrick's Somerset Birthplace: A Serious Study into the Birthplace of Saint Patrick in the Fifth Century Paperback – 1 Mar 1998" by Harry Jelly. Bannaventa Berniae has been debated and one explanation is it translates into Banwell, not far from the Bristol Channel and easy enough to access during a raid. |
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Although theory (like most of St.Patricks life) there was a local article that included a depute between local historians as to what My Jelly believed to be a cross in the Earth that may have been linked to St.Pattick. |
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There are also strong local links from Glastonbury - with some even claiming that St.Patrick was buried within the Abbey grounds next to the high alter, with some believing this is why Glastonbury was popular among Irish pilgrims, but was also documented by the honourable William of Malmesbury in his document "De antiquitate Glastoniensis ecclesiae (Concerning the Antiquity of Glastonbury)" that was compiled between 1129-35. The Abbey also has a chapel named after St.Patrick which is a sight of pilgrimage to this day. |
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The Glastonbury Shrine to Our Lady (the Catholic Church opposite the Abbey) also has a bit of information on the possible link between St.Patrick and Glastonbury, Somerset. |
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Sources: |
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http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artgue/guestjelley.htm |
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https://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/st-patrick-in-banwell-riddle-1-312946 |
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https://clasmerdin.blogspot.com/2015/08/st-patrick-at-glastonbury.html |
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http://www.glastonburyshrine.co.uk/Shrine/StPatrick.php |
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:{{not done}}:<!-- Template:ESp --> already linked under died and should not be relinked as per ] ] (]) 13:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Thank you in advance. comment added by ] |
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The text asserts that Patric is "venerated as a saint in the ... Lutheran church...". Lutheran churches do not recognize "saints" or venerate them, even though Lutheran church buildings may be named after disciples, evangelists or archangels venerated by Catholics as "saints". Jarmo K. (talk) 14:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
This is a truly dreadful article, mostly obsessed with Catholic trivia about shamrocks, bells, and visions. Patrick was actually a most important person in establishing and propagating literacy - a fundamental tool for propagating religious philosophy. Catholicism, for example. By ignoring the literacy part of Patrick's existence, this article becomes an astonishing and execrable waste of time! Is nobody here aware of this other side of Patrick's life, not to mention being able to include some relevant history? Henrilebec (talk) 01:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done: already linked under died and should not be relinked as per MOS:REPEATLINK Ultraodan (talk) 13:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)