Talk:Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor: Difference between revisions

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			== No YF-22 image? ==
	== No mention of: possibility of shoot down the F-22 Raptor aircraft by a Syrian missile ==

			Surely this page can accommodate one photo of the YF-22 for comparison? It might also be prudent to add a picture of the YF-23. ] (]) 03:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
	“According to the Oklahoman newspaper Post, citing U.S. military sources that the F-22 Raptor crashed in the north of Jordan, sources tell about the possibility of shoot down the F-22 Raptor aircraft by a Syrian missile Syrian everything and happened near the Syrian border, while a military expert John Blu Reed told the newspaper that the shoot down of the F-22 Raptor confirmation that Syria has a defense system updated the S-300, S 400 missiles or rockets, U.S. expert also stated that U.S. relations – Russia will be even more strained if it is confirmed that Russia has provided to Syria missiles S 400.

			:Why? They already have photos in their respective articles, ] and ]. Why would we need them in this article? ] (]) 04:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
	On the other hand according to reports from the United States, according to the Los Angeles Times of America, the Syrian defense forces have shot down four missiles launched by the Americans type Tomahawk, sources tell us that it was the defense systems (Pantsir-S1) anti-aircraft missiles that have made that American missiles struck, and centered in the middle, the sources of Washington state that four missiles were launched to test the degree of defense of the Syrian forces, the sources have also confirmed that one of the main reasons in stopping aggression against Syria is the overthrow of the American F-22 Raptor crashed yesterday in the north of Jordan, also also deal with the part of the Syrian air defense missiles to the four Tomahawk, remember that Jordan is still home to its territory five F-22, and this was one of the main reasons to postpone the trial of aggression against Syria.”

			== More detailed description of NATF in the YF-22 article ==
	Link: https://www.moddb.com/groups/aircraft-lovers-group/images/syrian-air-defense-possibly-shot-down-a-f-22

			I added a more detailed description of the Lockheed team's NATF design in the YF-22 article and linked it appropriately. The reason is that I try to keep most of the F-22 development information in this article on post Dem/Val work, including FSD/EMD, production, and modernization, while the YF-22 article would cover the period ATF RFI to Dem/Val. Given that the Navy began backing out of NATF even before the ATF winner for FSD/EMD was selected, the design never progressed beyond Dem/Val, which is why I feel that it's more appropriate to have it the other article. ] (]) 03:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
	Probably this information should be included in article since sources are US News papers… ] (]) 19:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
	:We would need to see the actual sources before discussing this. A forum for a game modding website isn't a ]. --] (]) 03:41, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
	:The newspaper referred to in that post doesn't actually exist. This nonsense shouldn't be entertained. ] (]) 04:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
	::Just to follow up, not sure why this nonsense hasn't been deleted or archived yet, this story was first circulated in September 2013 in some Arabic online sources, which was then machine-translated into Italian and then into English. The allegation is extremely dubious as there is no newspaper that matches the name provided, and even accounting for errors in translation, no Oklahoman news sources have ever reported anything similar to confirms these allegations; there are no articles from the LA Times regarding Tomahawk shot by Pantsir either. Additionally, there are no sources or references for a "military expert" named "John Blu Reed" (a rather laughably generic name), and there is no evidence to show that the S-300 or S-400 was deployed to Syria in the 2013 timeframe, nor is there evidence to show any F-22 deployments to Jordan at that time either. To this day, no evidence of this allegedly shootdown has been presented. In other words, Calimero is basing his assumptions on an extremely dubious report with no actual news sources to back it up and no evidence to support or verify the alleged event. The fact that people fall for this kind of nonsense is quite irritating, but this shows the pernicious effect of disinformation on the ignorant or uninformed (or those who have an agenda and want to believe anything that may support that regardless of the truth). ] (]) 14:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
	: Tail doesn't look like a F22; maybe an Iranian F14?

			:Uhhh... ok? No offense intended, but this reminds me of that quote from Robin Williams in ''Good Morning Vietnam'', "Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P."
	== "Chrome coating" ==

			:So the question I have is, how does that translate into English? ] (]) 18:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
	Ok, I have a bit of a problem with the whole bit about the so-called chrome coating. The problem is, other than people having seen it, everything else is utter speculation. Now I know that much about this aircraft is still top secret, so in many cases speculation is all we have, but at least it's very reasonable and educated. In this case, it sounds more like those TV shows where they're trying to speculate on how UFOs function. It's just wild guesses, and that's how it reads.
			::Explaining why I think the description of the naval variant should be in the YF-22 rather than F-22 article, because almost no development work on that variant happened after the downselect. Some of its design cues were taken for A-X and A/F-X but those are different aircraft and programs. ] (]) 06:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

			== Why are we referring to it as the Lockheed/Boeing F-22 Raptor? ==
	My guess is that people often have a natural human-tendency to jump to the extremes of their imagination and forget to employ a little Occam's razor. It's probably something much more simple. The sources said these aircraft were spotted participating in actual Red Flag war-games as aggressor aircraft, rather than flying in some kind of testing arena, likely going up against other F-22s. I think it's just to make them look different, more like enemy aircraft so they're not easily confused with friendlies. But whatever the reason, I think we need something better than all these wild guesses. At most, we should just mention the sightings and leave it at that, at least until we have something that doesn't sound like we're tossing everything against the wall to see what sticks. ] (]) 22:46, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
	: I agree with this. While it's clear that USAF has many upgrades to the F-22 planned, including its RAM coatings, there's nothing definitively confirmed about the disposition of the chrome-like coatings (which frankly look almost like an applique on top of the existing skin). I would also move to the upgrades section. ] (]) 00:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
	: It's also worth mentioning that these jets, 04-4065 and 04-4070, are OT (Operational Test) jets based at Nellis, while development test is typically done with dedicated flight sciences jets like 06-4132 at Edwards. While it's not out of the question that upgrades may directly move to OT without being see at Edwards, it would definitely be unusual. ] (]) 00:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

			I don't want to start an edit war, but Lockheed/Boeing F-22 Raptor seems to plainly violate WP:UCRN, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:COMMONTERM.
	::I think, given the evidence, and especially the fact that the source says they were flying as ] during aerial-combat training, that they just painted them a different color for the same reason football teams wear different colored uniforms. It's important to know who's who. I wouldn't be surprised if it washed right off with some soap and a hot-water pressure washer. The source also mentions them mounting mirrors on the nose cones, which the only reason I could think of for that is to increase the radar signature to, perhaps, (I don't know) appear on the scopes as a enemy aircraft. That all makes much more sense than trying to pass off a chrome-plated aircraft as being somehow less visible (which makes no sense at all).

			The F-22 does not appear on Boeing Defense's website as a aircraft they manufacture, the actual title of the article does not include Boeing, the Air Force museum refers to it as the Lockheed Martin F-22 (https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196040/lockheed-martin-f-22a-raptor/).
	::All of this, however, is just raw speculation without anything to back it up one way or another. We don't even know if it's chrome at all. Maybe it's just some metallic paint meant to resemble the aluminum of common aircraft. We just don't know, and there is no point in reporting on the things we don't know about. At this point, I would just call it a ]. I say include the reports of sightings if we want, but avoid the speculation without any facts to back it up. ] (]) 03:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

			There are other aircraft that have contract partners in the program, most importantly the F-35, but we don't refer to the F-35 as the Lockheed Martin / Northrop Grumman / BAE Systems F-35 Lightning II.
	== This sentence seems grammatically incorrect but I'm unsure how to rewrite it as I don't understand 100% the meaning. ==

			Similarly, the F-16 has been manufactured by Lockheed since 1995, but we don't refer to it as the Lockheed Martin F-16, but, instead, the original designer General Dynamics. ] (]) 18:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
	<blockquote>"Customers for U.S. fighters are acquiring earlier designs such as the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon or the newer F-35 Lightning II, which contains technology from the F-22 but was designed to be cheaper, more flexible, and available for export."</blockquote> Any thoughts? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]</span>''' 08:02, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
	:Having re-read several times I now understand the meaning of the sentence and apologize for my initial failure to grasp the finer details of this construction. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]</span>''' 02:40, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

			:The reason is that unlike the F-35, where Lockheed is the prime contractor with Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems being subcontractors, the F-22 was designed as a team with three roughly equal partners, originally Lockheed California (CALAC), General Dynamics Fort Worth (GDFW), and Boeing Seattle, and the work was split evenly between the three, not just the airframe but the entire system including avionics, training systems, etc. See the YF-22 article for the background of the partnership. Unlike other aircraft programs with partners, the Lockheed F-22 design involved GDFW and Boeing Seattle at the fundamental system level, including the overall shape and the avionics design. Lockheed only got majority of the program when they absorbed GDFW in 1993 (the design was also transferred from Lockheed California to Lockheed Georgia for EMD and production). It's for similar reasons that the YF-23 is listed as a Northrop/McDonnell Douglas aircraft. Given the involvement Boeing Seattle had in both the design and production of the F-22 since the program founding, I think it's suitable in this case to list them in the opening sentence. ] (]) 19:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
	== Max altitude 65,000 feet ==
			::Thanks, Steve. It is possible that Boeing is no longer a principal partner in the program, which has been out of production for years, and became a mere sub-contractor at some point in the program. We'll have to research that. ] (]) 22:38, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
	Is this worth a mention in the specs? ] (]) 10:45, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
			:::The relationships and workshare has definitely shifted now that the aircraft is no longer in production and the program is in the sustainment phase as well as ongoing modernization. That said, the opening sentence should reflect the prime contractors and principal partners during the time of design and production, IMO. Other examples include the General Dynamics/Grumman EF-111 Raven, Bell/Boeing V-22 Osprey, and the stillborn General Dynamics/McDonnell Douglas A-12 Avenger II (flying Dorito). ] (]) 15:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::I totally agree. ] (]) 01:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

			:::::Looks fine to me. ] refers to article titles, but the first sentence of the article usually gives a subject's full name, which may differ from the title. (For example: ] or ]). Either way, it seems like a silly thing to edit war over. ] (]) 00:05, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
	: 65,000 ft is listed under "Service ceiling" in the specs table now. But there could be a difference between maximum altitude and service ceiling. ] (]) 16:10, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

			== Designation and testing section ==
	::There is a difference. At 65,000 feet the air is incredibly thin, the sky above looks black and blue down below, and you can really see the curvature of the Earth. Control surfaces are extremely sloppy and slow to respond, engine speed is slowed and so is the rate of climb. There just isn't enough air to keep everything working at full potential.

			I've noticed that the "Designation and test" section of this article is under "Operational history", which appears to be an exception as most aircraft articles have that under "Development". Should the section be moved? As a side note, this article is becoming quite along, and admittedly I may be guilty of a lot of content addition over the years, despite my earlier work that trimmed it down substantially. ] (]) 02:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
	::The max altitude a plane can go is called its absolute ceiling. This is when the craft can no longer climb any higher, and you can only fly at one speed (full power) and still maintain steady, level flight. "Service ceiling", on the other hand, sets a safety margin that is a little lower than the absolute ceiling, because it's very easy to lose control up above the service ceiling and end up in an unrecoverable spin. The service ceiling is defined as the altitude at which the maximum rate-of-climb has fallen to 100 feet per minute. This is still a lot higher than the cruise altitude, which is where the aircraft tends to operate most efficiently, and that's generally limited by what's called the maximum operational altitude. I don't know if that helps, but I do think it's a number worth mentioning. ] (]) 02:15, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
	::* I thought there was a difference, thanks. So are altitude records based on the absolute ceiling, in level flight? ] (]) 03:53, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
	::::Not sure about records. Service ceiling is something they usually determine during test flights, but not something pilots usually take the plane to in normal operation. Absolute ceiling often remains untested, simply because it is so dangerous. You're literally flying the plane just at the edge of buffeting, the ailerons don't have much authority and the vertical stabilizers (tail fins) aren't doing a whole lot to keep the yaw under control. And god help you if you hit a pocket of low pressure or turbulence. From a safety standpoint, I guess you could say that the service ceiling is (for all intents and purposes) the maximum altitude recommended for an aircraft. Not that it can't go higher, but it's usually too dangerous to attempt it, but I'm sure some daredevils have tried. There's a reason absolute ceiling is called the "coffin corner", because, once you get there, there is really not much you can do without going out of control. ] (]) 04:27, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
	:::::Maybe link to this? ] <span style="color:#AAA"><small><nowiki>{{u\|</nowiki></small>]<small><nowiki>}}</nowiki></small></span>  <sup>]</sup> 10:36, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

			:I don't necessarily see that all aircraft articles need to adhere to some strict format. I don't really have an opinion on that one way or the other, but the question I would ask myself is: in which spot does it make the most sense?
	Ref for "service ceiling 65,000+ ft.": https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Magazine%20Documents/2016/August%202016/0816classics.pdf
	Having just taken a shot w/o fear of airframe loss at 58k this doesn't sound absurd. ] (]) 15:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

			:As for your other point, I quite agree that the article is excessively long. Not blaming anybody, it just is what it is. There are just a lot of boring details bogging down the flow and obfuscating the points. The thing to keep in mind is that an encyclopedia is a quick reference, which is why you find them in the reference section of the library. They're meant to give brief summaries of subjects in easily digested form, and summarizing --by definition-- means cutting out all the extraneous details and whittling it down to the nitty gritty. Such details are great for the avid enthusiast, but to the general reader they're boring and monotonous as hell. An encyclopedias purpose is to give the basic gist of the story for those who don't want to read the whole damn story. I think paring down on a lot of these details will improve the flow and understandability by a huge amount, while at the same time bringing this article down to a reasonable size. ] (]) 02:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
	:No, it doesn't sound absurd. I mean, that's getting pretty close to the max operational altitude (MOA) of the U2, but as the craft is supposed to be pretty lightweight, I'd imagine it can get up pretty high. Don't expect peak performance up there, though. Lockheed themselves says a pretty round number of 10 miles, , which is 52,800', so I imagine this is where people are getting the 50K from. But they also say it can cruise and even supercruise at that altitude, so it looks to me like more of a MOA rather than a service ceiling, give or take a few thousand feet. (10 mi is a pretty round number.) The service ceiling is something defined by the FAA as the point where performance has dropped beyond an acceptable threshold, and the margin of error becomes exponentially narrower from then on, which is different from operational ceiling (MOA). So if Lockheed is giving an MOA of 10 mi, then a service ceiling of of 12 mi doesn't sound at all unreasonable. ] (]) 19:30, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
			::In terms of prose, this article is currently about 11,600 words. I decided to check some featured articles to compare their lengths to this one, and the ] article is actually a bit longer at about 12,300 words. Another article, the ], is about 10,900 words while ] is around 11,300 words. So this article is long but not drastically so. All of these articles are smaller in terms of number of bytes, however, so I wonder if perhaps something else is adding to the size of this article other than the prose. That said, some sections do seem a bit bloated, partly because until recently the ] and ] articles weren't fleshed out yet so some of that information was in here. I can try my hand at pruning my own work to try to cut the article down some. ] (]) 07:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

			:::I've pruned the article a bit and also moved some testing information further up to help consolidate and reduce repetition. ] (]) 22:03, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
	== The shilling could be a little more sublte. ==
			:::* Images and templates are probably why the overall article size (not just prose) is larger here. ] (]) 00:35, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

			:::*:Partly. Reading through the article, the design section is considerably more detailed and longer than most other fighter aircraft articles, likely because the F-22's development is pretty well documented with a lot of exposure in both books and in online sources. ] (]) 20:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
	"The fighter's combination of stealth, aerodynamic performance, and mission systems enable unprecedented air combat capabilities and set the benchmark for its generation."

	That's just embarrassing. "the benchmark"? Why are you talking to me as though you're an advertising brochure? I don't know what your "benchmarks are." ] (]) 10:11, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
	:There are two cited sources for that sentence. Did you follow up on them? As for benchmarks, consider how other 5th generation fighters are generally described in terms of their capabilities: mostly in comparison to the F-22. That isn't even necessarily a result of the F-22 being the best thing ever, rather, it's because it was the first 5th generation fighter aircraft. The F-35 gets compared to the F-22, for example, even though the F-22 surpasses it in a number of areas (and the F-35 surpasses the F-22 in some areas). The Su-57 is compared with the F-22, the J-20 is compared with the F-22, etc. Sometimes in those comparisons, the F-22 comes out on top, and sometimes it does not. Setting the benchmark often means little more than "being first," and so setting the standard. It doesn't mean it has the highest standard. --] (]) 21:06, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

	: The F-22 was the the first operational fighter of its generation (5th). So it should be the benchmark. ] (]) 21:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

	::This seems to be a simple matter of misunderstanding the meaning of a word. "Benchmark" is often a word used in promotional campaigns, but it actually has a technical meaning. It was originally a point of reference that surveyors would use to measure altitude, like a church steeple whose altitude is already known. The modern definition is: "Something whose quality or quantity is known and which can therefore be used as a standard or reference point with which other things can be compared or measured." It's not an ] but a purely relative one. Every new thing sets the benchmark until the next new thing comes along and leaves it in the dust. ] (]) 02:44, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
	:I am astonished such promotional language is in the lede. I am skeptical that the source supports that text . ] (]) 03:35, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
	::The word "benchmark" was inserted too. Would it not be more objective and improve clarity if we simply said it was the first fifth gen fighter? ] (]) 03:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
	:::"Fighter generations" is a marketing term, so that would just be exchanging one form of shilling for another one. ] (]) 05:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
	::::"Fighter Generations is a technical reflection of the capabilities of the aircraft. Fifth Gen aircraft are substantially different in design architecture and capabilities. ] (]) 03:45, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
	:::Saying it set the "benchmark" is not promotional, it's factual. No other fighter jet at the time of its release, or arguably now, has approached its level of sophistication.] (]) 21:26, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
	::::I don't know if we can really call anything marketing in this case, at least in the literal sense of the term, when they refuse to sell them to anyone. I guess one could make a case for boasting or maybe even a touch of propaganda, since a lot of the military involves sword rattling to make others think twice about messing with you. But sword rattling does little good if it's all just smoke and mirrors, and if anything the military has a history of downplaying its true capabilities. But any fighter that can get up to 58,000 feet --and still pull its nose up steeply enough to put a missile on something a good mile above it-- has definitely set a benchmark in the literal sense of the term. I agree that "unprecedented" was over the top, but I don't think "benchmark" is just a filler adjective (puffery) in this case. That said, it is kind of stating the obvious, and it is only a temporary thing, so it's not really written with that historical or "timeless" perspective in mind. ] (]) 21:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

	::::Going to need a source regardless. ] (]) 19:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

	:::::Finding sources is not a problem. For example, source from ''Air and Space Magazine''. There are plenty of sources that use the word benchmark when describing the F-22. Have you read the already-cited sources to make sure that they don't say it? Perhaps the better argument against is not one of mere policy but of what separates encyclopedic writing from other forms of expository writing?

	:::::I still think there is some misunderstanding about what the word means. The military is constantly benchmarking funds for one project or another. The latest Intel chip was the benchmark of its time until the next generation of computer chip came out. Under the definition of the word, it's plainly obvious that every new technology sets the benchmark for its time, however long or short that may be. It's easy to find sources for that too, such as this from the Air University, : "The United States raised the stakes and established a benchmark in deception when it fielded the F-117, but even that aircraft is not invincible or invisible to radar.... Instead, the lesson learned is the inevitable downfall of technology in combat. The technological benchmark in warfare consistently resets, and there has yet to be a technology that cannot be countered."

	:::::The point is, however true it is for the moment, or even maybe the next decade or two, an encyclopedia should be written as if what we write today will still be relevant 100 years from now and not read as if it's dated. It's also not necessary and, to the contrary, more often than not comes off as condescending to point out the obvious. Finding sources is easy, but writing is hard work, and I think we could probably do a little more to make the writing seem less dated. ] (]) 20:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
	::::::Do you have a better source? That one just makes a prediction, circa 1998, that the F-22 will be the one to beat. ] (]) 04:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
	:::::I'm the one who added the phrase "set the benchmark for its generation". Note that I specifically caveated with "for its generation", i.e. 5th generation fighter. The F-22 is widely accepted as the first 5th generation fighter, and 5th generation fighter programs from many other countries have used the F-22 as a point of comparison. Yes, as technology and tactics march on, the F-22 will no longer be benchmark, but the NGAD, or whatever comes after it. But again, this statement was qualified with "for its generation" for that very reason. ] (]) 00:44, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
	::::::In the future, please don't make unsourced changes to cited content (I'm assuming you didn't check the cited source to see if that claim was there?). ] (]) 04:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
	*The "benchmark" claim needs to be restated in the body at the very least. The lede isn't for making new claims. I would prefer that that statement would be removed from the lede too. ] (]) 04:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

	::While I can't speak for the original edit that added the word "unprecedented", the cited source, Aronstein, does state something similar.
	::{{quotebox \|quote=The success of all four Dem/Val prototype airframe/engine combinations in achieving unprecedented performance characteristics is just one example of how effectively technical risk was managed in the ATF program. \|source=F-22 Raptor: Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter, page 254 \|author=Aronstein, Piccirillo}} ] (]) 15:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

	== Wrong page link ==

	"Update 5 in 2016 added automatic ground collision avoidance system (GCAS)"

	Link leads to the Shell Star page. I have no idea why, but it does. ] (]) 23:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

	:The acronym in astronomy stands for ], so the redirect should probably link to it. I don't see an article for ground collision avoidance systems, and I don't even find anything to pipe the link to, so I just removed it instead. ] (]) 00:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
	::There is an article on ], so I've linked to that instead. ] (]) 01:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
	:::Thanks BilCat. I guess I didn't look hard enough. I've made that mistake myself more times than I care to admit. I've found it's usually best not to use acronyms as links, and even then it's a good idea to check them first. I changed the redirect to link to the correct article. ] (]) 01:52, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

	== Lead formatting ==

	As I understand it, lists should generally be avoided and written as prose as long as it's not too cumbersome, per the MOS. I didn't think the lead was too cumbersome to read, so I'm not convinced that it should be written as a list. ] (]) 14:32, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

	:I concur that this doesn't need to be in a list format. Further, I'd add that it's too much information for the lead, and needs to be summarized for instead. The details should be in the body of the article already, but I haven't had time to check that yet. ] (]) 01:04, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

	== Distribution between test and operational aircraft ==

	Currently, the article states that of the 195 F-22s that were built, 8 were test (EMD) and 187 were operational aircraft. However, the correct figures are 9 EMD, (91-4001 to 91-4009), and 186, (99-4010 to 10-4195).<ref>{{cite web \|title=F-22 Industry Team Delivers Last EMD Flight Test Aircraft - Raptor 4009 - To USAF Logistics Test & Evaluation Team \|url=https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2002-04-15-F-22-Industry-Team-Delivers-Last-EMD-Flight-Test-Aircraft-Raptor-4009-To-USAF-Logistics-Test-Evaluation-Team \|work=Lockheed Martin}}</ref><ref>{{cite web \|title=DEADLY RAPTOR: AN OVERVIEW OF PAST AND PRESENT USAF F-22A OPS \|url=https://www.key.aero/article/deadly-raptor-overview-past-and-present-usaf-f-22a-ops}}</ref> Unfortunately, the incorrect figures of 8 and 187 were stated in official sources sometimes, so I'm not sure how we can correct this. ] (]) 18:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

	:Typically, when there is a discrepancy between sources, there are a few different ways to handle it, and some editorial judgment must come into play. First, you can weigh the reliability of sources against one another. For example, if a magazine says ] can cure all sorts of diseases and ailments, but a book written by medical experts that cites actual studies says the opposite, obviously we would go with the better source. However, in other cases the reliability of conflicting sources may be on par with each other, in which case we simply tell what both sources say, as in "Source A says this, while source B says that..." (or something along those lines). ] (]) 18:26, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

	===References===
	{{reflist}} ] (]) 18:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

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On 15 October 2012, it was proposed that this article be moved to F-22. The result of the discussion was not moved.

No YF-22 image?

Surely this page can accommodate one photo of the YF-22 for comparison? It might also be prudent to add a picture of the YF-23. Schierbecker (talk) 03:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Why? They already have photos in their respective articles, YF-22 and YF-23. Why would we need them in this article? Zaereth (talk) 04:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

More detailed description of NATF in the YF-22 article

I added a more detailed description of the Lockheed team's NATF design in the YF-22 article and linked it appropriately. The reason is that I try to keep most of the F-22 development information in this article on post Dem/Val work, including FSD/EMD, production, and modernization, while the YF-22 article would cover the period ATF RFI to Dem/Val. Given that the Navy began backing out of NATF even before the ATF winner for FSD/EMD was selected, the design never progressed beyond Dem/Val, which is why I feel that it's more appropriate to have it the other article. Steve7c8 (talk) 03:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Uhhh... ok? No offense intended, but this reminds me of that quote from Robin Williams in Good Morning Vietnam, "Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P."

So the question I have is, how does that translate into English? Zaereth (talk) 18:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Explaining why I think the description of the naval variant should be in the YF-22 rather than F-22 article, because almost no development work on that variant happened after the downselect. Some of its design cues were taken for A-X and A/F-X but those are different aircraft and programs. Steve7c8 (talk) 06:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Why are we referring to it as the Lockheed/Boeing F-22 Raptor?

I don't want to start an edit war, but Lockheed/Boeing F-22 Raptor seems to plainly violate WP:UCRN, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:COMMONTERM.

The F-22 does not appear on Boeing Defense's website as a aircraft they manufacture, the actual title of the article does not include Boeing, the Air Force museum refers to it as the Lockheed Martin F-22 (https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196040/lockheed-martin-f-22a-raptor/).

There are other aircraft that have contract partners in the program, most importantly the F-35, but we don't refer to the F-35 as the Lockheed Martin / Northrop Grumman / BAE Systems F-35 Lightning II.

Similarly, the F-16 has been manufactured by Lockheed since 1995, but we don't refer to it as the Lockheed Martin F-16, but, instead, the original designer General Dynamics. 2600:4040:297C:8F00:3DF5:9183:2248:E353 (talk) 18:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The reason is that unlike the F-35, where Lockheed is the prime contractor with Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems being subcontractors, the F-22 was designed as a team with three roughly equal partners, originally Lockheed California (CALAC), General Dynamics Fort Worth (GDFW), and Boeing Seattle, and the work was split evenly between the three, not just the airframe but the entire system including avionics, training systems, etc. See the YF-22 article for the background of the partnership. Unlike other aircraft programs with partners, the Lockheed F-22 design involved GDFW and Boeing Seattle at the fundamental system level, including the overall shape and the avionics design. Lockheed only got majority of the program when they absorbed GDFW in 1993 (the design was also transferred from Lockheed California to Lockheed Georgia for EMD and production). It's for similar reasons that the YF-23 is listed as a Northrop/McDonnell Douglas aircraft. Given the involvement Boeing Seattle had in both the design and production of the F-22 since the program founding, I think it's suitable in this case to list them in the opening sentence. Steve7c8 (talk) 19:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Steve. It is possible that Boeing is no longer a principal partner in the program, which has been out of production for years, and became a mere sub-contractor at some point in the program. We'll have to research that. BilCat (talk) 22:38, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The relationships and workshare has definitely shifted now that the aircraft is no longer in production and the program is in the sustainment phase as well as ongoing modernization. That said, the opening sentence should reflect the prime contractors and principal partners during the time of design and production, IMO. Other examples include the General Dynamics/Grumman EF-111 Raven, Bell/Boeing V-22 Osprey, and the stillborn General Dynamics/McDonnell Douglas A-12 Avenger II (flying Dorito). Steve7c8 (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I totally agree. BilCat (talk) 01:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. WP:COMMONNAME refers to article titles, but the first sentence of the article usually gives a subject's full name, which may differ from the title. (For example: Buck Dharma or Kim Kardashian). Either way, it seems like a silly thing to edit war over. Zaereth (talk) 00:05, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Designation and testing section

I've noticed that the "Designation and test" section of this article is under "Operational history", which appears to be an exception as most aircraft articles have that under "Development". Should the section be moved? As a side note, this article is becoming quite along, and admittedly I may be guilty of a lot of content addition over the years, despite my earlier work that trimmed it down substantially. Steve7c8 (talk) 02:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't necessarily see that all aircraft articles need to adhere to some strict format. I don't really have an opinion on that one way or the other, but the question I would ask myself is: in which spot does it make the most sense?

As for your other point, I quite agree that the article is excessively long. Not blaming anybody, it just is what it is. There are just a lot of boring details bogging down the flow and obfuscating the points. The thing to keep in mind is that an encyclopedia is a quick reference, which is why you find them in the reference section of the library. They're meant to give brief summaries of subjects in easily digested form, and summarizing --by definition-- means cutting out all the extraneous details and whittling it down to the nitty gritty. Such details are great for the avid enthusiast, but to the general reader they're boring and monotonous as hell. An encyclopedias purpose is to give the basic gist of the story for those who don't want to read the whole damn story. I think paring down on a lot of these details will improve the flow and understandability by a huge amount, while at the same time bringing this article down to a reasonable size. Zaereth (talk) 02:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

In terms of prose, this article is currently about 11,600 words. I decided to check some featured articles to compare their lengths to this one, and the Boeing 747 article is actually a bit longer at about 12,300 words. Another article, the Boeing 777, is about 10,900 words while McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II is around 11,300 words. So this article is long but not drastically so. All of these articles are smaller in terms of number of bytes, however, so I wonder if perhaps something else is adding to the size of this article other than the prose. That said, some sections do seem a bit bloated, partly because until recently the Advanced Tactical Fighter and Lockheed YF-22 articles weren't fleshed out yet so some of that information was in here. I can try my hand at pruning my own work to try to cut the article down some. Steve7c8 (talk) 07:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I've pruned the article a bit and also moved some testing information further up to help consolidate and reduce repetition. Steve7c8 (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Images and templates are probably why the overall article size (not just prose) is larger here. -Fnlayson (talk) 00:35, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Partly. Reading through the article, the design section is considerably more detailed and longer than most other fighter aircraft articles, likely because the F-22's development is pretty well documented with a lot of exposure in both books and in online sources. Steve7c8 (talk) 20:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

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