| Revision as of 21:37, 22 December 2024 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,301,031 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks/Archive 3) (bot← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 08:02, 30 December 2024 edit undoUltraodan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers1,252 edits →Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2024 |
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{{old move|date1=17 September 2024|destination1=2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions|result1=not moved|link1=Special:Permalink/1246569339#Requested move 17 September 2024|date2=19 September 2024|destination2=|result2=Inching ever closer to consensus|link2=Special:Permalink/1252382344#Requested move 19 September 2024|date3=21 October 2024|from3=2024 Lebanon pager explosions|destination3=2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks|result3=moved|link3=Special:Permalink/1253669674#Requested move 21 October 2024}} |
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{{old move|date1=17 September 2024|destination1=2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions|result1=not moved|link1=Special:Permalink/1246569339#Requested move 17 September 2024|date2=19 September 2024|destination2=|result2=Inching ever closer to consensus|link2=Special:Permalink/1252382344#Requested move 19 September 2024|date3=21 October 2024|from3=2024 Lebanon pager explosions|destination3=2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks|result3=moved|link3=Special:Permalink/1253669674#Requested move 21 October 2024}} |
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== Requested move 21 October 2024 == |
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<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, #000); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' Thanks, everyone. I take this as "consensus that the solved-in-individual-pieces title was not so objectionable everyone immediately moved to oppose it". ] (]) 15:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC) |
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] → {{no redirect|2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks}} – Please pick EITHER '''2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks''' OR '''2024 Hezbollah device explosions''', and state it clearly in your response. , I am setting up the "simple run-off between '''2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks''' and '''2024 Hezbollah device explosions'''". I'll also explain where I think we're at: The former is more recent, fits ] better and maintains ]. The latter is based on words which had some support ("Hezbollah" and "explosions") and technically also covers attacks in Syria, but possibly ignores civilian casualties and leaves out that these were orchestrated attacks. I'm hoping we can get a quick ] close on this, especially as the first option is so recent and this is the third RM in so many weeks. I'd also like to avoid it becoming a Franken-monster like the last one. We're so close I can feel it. ] (]) 07:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Too soon'''. Give time for the dust from the last RM to settle before proceeding with a new one. ] (]) 08:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Are you sure? The last one had tapered off over the last couple of weeks anyway, so the responses were only coming in in drips and drabs. Most of us probably want to see this resolved (personally, I think the last closer should've just gone with the option they suggested anyway). But I'm happy to park this if you/others feel strongly that we need a break. Let's see if anyone else chimes in. ] (]) 08:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*::I'm happy to reclose it as the Frankenclose if that's what people would prefer - I was uneasy about doing that, as I said, because no one ever got the chance to actually agree that they liked that one as a unit. -- ] (]) 17:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::That may be the way to go. I would be fine with that title. Shall we see if anyone else responds to my RM? If there's crickets all around, it might mean there's no real passion to oppose the Frankenclose, and we can go with that. The last RM had people responding in their droves (at least initially), so I would expect people to do the same if they disagreed with it, at least. ] (]) 17:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*::::Happy with reclosing per the frankenclose. Or happy to proceed on this one. Don't see the point in waiting when the previous discussion did not fail, it was just to complex to complete. In which case this is all part of the same process. ] (]) 18:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*:::::That was my thinking, too. ] (]) 06:07, 22 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:*'''Supporting''' a move to '''2024 Israel's pagers attack in Lebanon''' as there is no reason why we should avoid mentioning Israel. ] (]) 11:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:*:After reconsideration, '''2024 Israel's electronic devices attack in Lebanon''' is better as not only pagers were targeted. ] (]) 08:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:*::Your revised suggestion is better, but I oppose multiplying the options. Let's choose between 1 and 2. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. It need not be the end state but 1 or 2 will be an improvement for the very reason you mention here. ] (]) 08:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:*:::Exactly. We can always do an RM to add ''Israel's'' or ''Israeli'' later, but multiplying the options increases the likelihood we'll get no consensus again. I'd rather we get to a good title now than keep it where it is. ] (]) 08:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*Support '''2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks''' per arguments in last RM.''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 16:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:* '''Support''' moving to '''2024 Israeli electronic devices attack in Lebanon''', as I agree with @] that attribution of the perpetrator should be included in the title. ] (]) 06:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:*:Let's not split the vote. Any RM now won't prejudice and RM later. We can run an RM for ''Israeli'' later. ] (]) 08:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:*::Alright, for the options you presented: |
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:*::'''Support Option 1''' '''2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks'''. The phrase captures the scope and content of the page, and the addition of explosions isn't necessary. The inclusion of Hezbollah is problematic as it implies a targeted, discriminate attack, when the page cites high quality RS including and saying it was indiscriminate. I also agree with your point that "Hezbollah attacks" is very clunky, not policy-based, and creates more problems that it solves. |
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::::However, the perpetrator is not in question in RS and presents no issues with the phrasing, so it should be included, but that's for a future discussion. ] (]) 09:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''2024 Hezbollah pager and walkie talkie attacks.''' I prefer that to ''electronic device.'' If I have to choose a combination of the phrases given though, I think it should have "Hezbollah" and "attack." ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 06:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*:{{ping|Andrevan}} And why do you think it should not have the perpetrator in the title? ] (]) 08:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*::As raised in the prior RM, the major problem with this is that it could be read as an attack made ''by'' Hezbollah, not ''on'' Hezbollah. ''Lebanon'' was chosen per ] which suggests we should default to what, where and when, not who or why. Hence, ''2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks''. ''Electronic device'' was deemed preferable to ''pager and walkie talkie'' because it was more concise. ''Hezbollah'' was primarily suggested as an alternative since some devices exploded in Syria. Personally, though, I don't think ''Hezbollah attacks'' is policy-based, and creates more problems than it solves. ] (]) 09:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Oppose this suggestion. No point relitigating the previous discussion and multiplying the options. ] (]) 08:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Support option 1''', '''neutral option 2''', '''oppose no action'''. ] describe this as an "attack" as shown in the previous RM. The current title is horrendous as it is, so it should be removed and replaced with something more accurately reflected in sources. We finally converged on a couple titles that work. ] ] 18:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*Support '''2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks''' in this run-off between only the two proposed titles for the reason of using active voice "attacks" rather than passive voice "explosions". Other titles may be better and should be brought up in future requested moves. Support doing this speedily per the outcome of the previous requested move. ] (]) 21:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Yeah, it would be good to keep this on topic so we can resolve it quickly. ] (]) 08:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Support both options. Prefer 2.''' Reasoning in th eprevious discussion. Time to get this done. ] (]) 08:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
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</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div> |
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== There's a typo I'd like to fix but I'm a humble IP editor and thus can't edit this extended-protected article == |
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== There's a typo I'd like to fix but I'm a humble IP editor and thus can't edit this extended-protected article == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2024 == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2024 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks|answered=no}} |
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{{edit extended-protected|2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks|answered=yes}} |
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Under the Heading "Casualties" the article states that Al Jazeera, a pro Muslim and historically anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel newspaper states that "the Lebanese Labour Minister from Hezbollah, said that over 4,000 civilians were injured from the attacks." and does not follow up to state the fact that the Labor Minister, Al Jazeera and Hezbollah all consider Jews and Israel their arch nemesis. There are many articles from sources like the Lieber Report, the West Point military strategy magazine or The Center for Strategic Studies who speak about in their article that Hezbollah's command and control were disrupted by the pager attack, thus verifying that if you were carrying a Hezbollah pager, you were likely Hezbollah operative. Many other articles if you peel away from the lock step media (CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, New York Times, Al Jazeera, AP, Reuters and PBS.) find the attack to be the most precision attack cause mass casualties to a military opponent in History, with minimal civilian collateral damage. ] (]) 07:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Under the Heading "Casualties" the article states that Al Jazeera, a pro Muslim and historically anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel newspaper states that "the Lebanese Labour Minister from Hezbollah, said that over 4,000 civilians were injured from the attacks." and does not follow up to state the fact that the Labor Minister, Al Jazeera and Hezbollah all consider Jews and Israel their arch nemesis. There are many articles from sources like the Lieber Report, the West Point military strategy magazine or The Center for Strategic Studies who speak about in their article that Hezbollah's command and control were disrupted by the pager attack, thus verifying that if you were carrying a Hezbollah pager, you were likely Hezbollah operative. Many other articles if you peel away from the lock step media (CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, New York Times, Al Jazeera, AP, Reuters and PBS.) find the attack to be the most precision attack cause mass casualties to a military opponent in History, with minimal civilian collateral damage. ] (]) 07:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{partly done}}:<!-- Template:EEp --> I have added additional context to the Background section explaining that Hezbollah and Israel are historic enemies. If you want any other changes made, please request those changes in a {{tq|Change "A" to "B"}} format. Thanks – ] 22:14, 28 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== CBS journalism deep dive 3 months on == |
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== CBS journalism deep dive 3 months on == |
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Looks like there is a 15-minute deep journalism TV segment being aired later today by the ] journalists at ]. Appears it will include interview with a pseudonymous Israel Mossad agent. Here's the source for the upcoming segment, but not the segment itself: , CBS News, 20 December 2024. Could potentially have some newly uncovered information in ] that could improve the article. ] (]) 14:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Looks like there is a 15-minute deep journalism TV segment being aired later today by the ] journalists at ]. Appears it will include interview with a pseudonymous Israel Mossad agent. Here's the source for the upcoming segment, but not the segment itself: , CBS News, 20 December 2024. Could potentially have some newly uncovered information in ] that could improve the article. ] (]) 14:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Link to the full 14 minute interview segment: , ], 22 December 2023, retrieved 23 December 2023. It was actually with two retired Mossad agents, including the commander of the project at Mossad. |
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{{outdent}} Here is a print journalism source from a military analysis publication about revelations about how the operations pager/walkie talkie attacks were planned, based on the Mossad agent interviews: , The Warzone, 23 December 2024. This source may be easier to use than the video source for improving the article. ] (]) 02:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Death damage to the milita/terror org == |
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At this two days: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bj7izdk6r ] (]) 06:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
Under the Heading "Casualties" the article states that Al Jazeera, a pro Muslim and historically anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel newspaper states that "the Lebanese Labour Minister from Hezbollah, said that over 4,000 civilians were injured from the attacks." and does not follow up to state the fact that the Labor Minister, Al Jazeera and Hezbollah all consider Jews and Israel their arch nemesis. There are many articles from sources like the Lieber Report, the West Point military strategy magazine Lieber or The Center for Strategic Studies who speak about in their article that Hezbollah's command and control were disrupted by the pager attack, thus verifying that if you were carrying a Hezbollah pager, you were likely Hezbollah operative. Many other articles if you peel away from the lock step media (CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, New York Times, Al Jazeera, AP, Reuters and PBS.) find the attack to be the most precision attack cause mass casualties to a military opponent in History, with minimal civilian collateral damage. LionofYehuda (talk) 07:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
Partly done: I have added additional context to the Background section explaining that Hezbollah and Israel are historic enemies. If you want any other changes made, please request those changes in a 