| Revision as of 22:05, 21 August 2003 editSlrubenstein (talk | contribs)30,655 edits explanation for cut← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 17:12, 30 December 2024 edit undoA. Randomdude0000 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users15,225 edits Restored revision 1263850330 by Yue (talk): WP:NOTFORUM/WP:TALKTags: Twinkle Undo |
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Excellent explanation of the "global" perspective: |
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{{notice|{{large|'''This page is about Marx, not ].'''}}}} |
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:Some argue that capitalism does not exist as an independent system in any one country, and that one must analyze it as a global system. They further argue that when examined as a global system, capitalism is still organizing and exacerbating the gulf between rich and poor |
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Also there is a point of view that an emerging ] is a next stage in development of ], because it'll make a ] unnecessary and so it will completely change a ]. -- ] |
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: Within Marxist thought, capitalism is defined by the alienation of labor power, not by the amount of manual labor. Also, Marx characterized capitalism as the most revolutionary system because the means of production were constantly changing. In other words, a new technology, like nanotechnology, is not sufficient to create a new mode of production, indeed it is completely consistent with this mode of production. And whether people are working at home or in factories or behind desks is secondary to whether people own the technologies they rely upon, and whether people sell their labor (for wages or salaries). Capitalism has changed tremendously in the past 200 years, and will continue to change. But IF you use Marx's notion of mode of production, I do not see how nanotechnology will change the mode of production, SR |
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::I sorry for my English, under "manual labor" I meant a production of goods (as distinct from "creative labor" like ], ]s etc, producing ]). And here, I can't see how it is possible to alienate industrial labor power, if all such labor is performed by ]s? Robotization and automation of labor already changed capitalism greatly (and now ] is even more "social" then the ] implemented in ]). I think, all relations that were and are in industrial area now are steadily moving into the area of creative labor. Particulary, "]" battles - they are a sign of new emerging relations. May be, the mankind will pass all modes of "creative production" it has passed through in "industrial production". But industrial production itself seems reaching its last point - the nanotechological "communism". It doesn't mean that progress will finish - it just means that it will be continued (and may be repeated) on a new - informational - level. -- ] |
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:::Well, bear in mind that Marx's model may simply not be very useful for describing current transformations in capitalism. But I see two issues: first, people have to make the nanobots. I suppose one day machines might make machines, and machines will be able to produce all material goods without human supervision, although this seems a long way off. Marx would suggest that this would not be possible under capitalism, because it would lead to a falling rate of profit. That doesn't mean that it isn't possible, just not possible under the current system. Perhaps I am agreeing with you that such technology would indicate the end of capitalism, but I am suggesting that rather than the end of capitalism being caused by nanotechnology, the end of capitalism would be a necessary precondition for the full development of nanotechnology (again, only if Marx's theories are right). |
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:::But even if nanobots produce all material goods, including other nanobots and the fuel necessary for nanotechnology, the question remains about the organization of other labor (e.g. writing poems, playing rollerball, performing music): will people own their own technology, and own their own labor, or will they work for others? Most poets for example own their own computers and their own labor. But some musicians are employees of symphonies. What will the future be like? Will all artists work for themselves, or will they work for others? Again, only if you take Marx seriously, this is the issue -- not whether people "have to" work with their hands (many people in fact enjoy working with their hands and would not want to rely on nanobots!) but rather whether they sell their labor or not. Nanotechnology MIGHT accompany and end to the labor market, but it might not. Certainly, people are coming to see information as a commodity that can be bought and sold. Thee are biologists, chemists and physicists who work for big corporations and do very creative work yet their ideas legally belong to their employers, not themselves -- this is precisely what Marx called "capitalism" in the 1850s. The parts of the system may have changed, but the relationship among hte parts has not. SR |
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== House in Trier, Germany, where Marx spent his childhood and youth == |
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I cut the following: |
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], the father of Karl Marx, bought the small mansard roof building in ]´s Simeonstrasse in 1819 <ref>{{cite book |last1=Longuet |first1=Robert-Jean |title=Karl Marx mein Urgroßvater |date=1977 |location=Berlin |page=16}}</ref> when Karl was only one year old. The later socialist grew up here with his parents and five siblings and moved out aged 17 after his graduation from secondary school (Gymnasium). Yet as a grown up man, he returned to Trier several times to visit his relatives. |
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Marx's analysis of capitalism began with classic political economy, exemplified by ]. To their analysis of the role of the division of labor in capitalist production, Marx explored how the labor market drove the price of labor down: |
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Compared to today, little has changed in the historical city center of Trier: The main characteristics of the old town around the market place have been preserved and looked more or less the same back in the days when Karl Marx lived there <ref>{{cite book |last1=Neffe |first1=Jürgen |title=Marx der Unvollendete |date=2017 |publisher=Bertelsmann |isbn=ISBN-13 978-3570102732 |page=41}}</ref>. In particular the neighbourhood of the house to the Trier's most famous landmark, the Roman city gate ], is still impressive. In most parts unchanged to this day, it is likely that Karl Marx took the very same route to school every day that tourists can walk today <ref>{{cite book |last1=Monz |first1=Heinz |date=1964 |location=Trier |page=164}}</ref>. |
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:The greater division of labor enables one laborer to accomplish the work of five, 10, or 20 laborers; it therefore increases competition among the laborers fivefold, tenfold, or twentyfold. The laborers compete not only by selling themselves one cheaper than the other, but also by one doing the work of five, 10, or 20; and they are forced to compete in this manner by the division of labor, which is introduced and steadily improved by capitalism. |
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The house in Simeonstraße had a lasting impact on Karl Marx, especially since he had been educated here in home schooling until the age of 12 <ref>{{cite book |last1=Baumeister |first1=Jens |title=Wie der Wein Karl Marx zum Kommunisten machte: Ein Kommunist als Streiter für die Moselwinzer |date=2017 |location=Trier |isbn=ISBN 978-3000564710 |page=32}}</ref>. |
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As an adult, Karl Marx returned to live with his family in this house during his visits several times. For example in 1841 after his doctoral studies in Berlin, Marx travelled back to Trier. The main reason for his return home was to be close to his long-term fiancée ]. Also in the following year, 1842, Karl Marx spent some months in the house in Simeonstraße 8 (then Simeongasse 1040) in order to take care of family matters <ref>{{cite book |last1=Longuet |first1=Robert-Jean |title=Karl Marx mein Urgroßvater |date=1977 |location=Berlin |page=52}}</ref>. |
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Location of the house |
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The former home of Karl Marx in Simeonstraße 8 (then Simeongasse 1040) looks rather unremarkable at the beginning of Trier's shopping promenade close to the famous Porta Nigra. Only a few minutes walk leads visitors to the bronze statue of Karl Marx by ] – a present from the People's Republic of China to Trier. |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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Marx continues, "Furthermore, to the same degree in which the division of labor increases, is the labor simplified. The special skill of the laborer becomes worthless. He becomes transformed into a simple monotonous force of production, with neither physical nor mental elasticity. His work becomes accessible to all; therefore competitors press upon him from all sides. Moreover, it must be remembered that the more simple, the more easily learned the work is, so much the less is its cost to production, the expense of its acquisition, and so much the lower must the wages sink -- for, like the price of any other commodity, they are determined by the cost of production. Therefore, in the same manner in which labor becomes more unsatisfactory, more repulsive, do competition increase and wages decrease." |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 19 March 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Karl Marx|answered=yes}} |
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Marx goes on, "The laborer seeks to maintain the total of his wages for a given time by performing more labor, either by working a great number of hours, or by accomplishing more in the same number of hours. Thus, urged on by want, he himself multiplies the disastrous effects of division of labor. The result is: the more he works, the less wages he receives. And for this simple reason: the more he works, the more he competes against his fellow workmen, the more he compels them to compete against him, and to offer themselves on the same wretched conditions as he does; so that, in the last analysis, he competes against himself as a member of the working class." |
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Moses Mordecai Levi, otherwise known as Karl Heinrich Marx (May 5, 1818-March 14, 1883) was a German-Jewish philosopher, economist, historian, revolutionary, and journalist from Trier, Germany. ] (]) 12:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> <br />— ]<sup></nowiki>]]</nowiki>]]</sup> ⋮ 13:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:I am not finding any reliable sources on this. The only ones I found were articles using his Jewish identity to attack him. Here is one very biased article that mentions Moses mordecai Levi https://www.news24.com/news24/karl-marx-and-his-hateful-dream-of-atheism-20120913 |
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:There is also a random reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/karlmarx/comments/riufhh/was_karl_marx_his_birth_name/ |
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:The only potentially legitimate source I found is where it says his paternal grandfather's name was Mordechai Levi |
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:All the other sources are baseless conspiracy theories connecting him to the Rothschilds. |
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:Please present reliable sources before starting a topic on talk pages. ] (]) 21:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Critiques of Marx as a person. == |
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There are two reasons I cut these quotes, much as I love them. First, I think the task of an encyclopedia article is to provide a general outline of knowledge, or debates, concerning a particular topic -- not to provide a catalogue of quotes. The information in these quotes is important in Marxist theory, but to plop the quotes in to the middle of the article is simply poor style. They should be paraphrased or summarized, and more importantly, contextualized, and integrated into the article. Second, once you start quoting, where do you stop? Why not quote the entire first chapter of the Manifesto, which is beautifully written? Why not quote the whole 18th Brumaire? Why were these quotes in particular chosen? In fact, people interested in Marx should NOT rely on an article, they should read Marx's works -- so let's not quote excessively, let us just describe his different books with anough information so that interested people can read the works as a whole. ] |
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: he is most famous for his analysis of history in terms of class conflict |
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Little to nothing about the personal character or contradictions of Marx as a human being. Seems one sided. Not looking for character assassination but a more balanced view. ] (]) 21:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC) |
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No, he is most famous for creating the thought that led to Communism. He was not just a philosopher -- he founded a movement which swept up one third of humanity. ] takes a back seat to this. --] |
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:Any suggestions on what to add? Please elaborate a bit more ] (]) 21:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Sorry to disagree with you, but from a ] point of view, that's wrong. There Karl Marx ''is'' famous (and I'd say: most famous) for his analysis of history. Just read the "influence" part of the article.--] |
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== Did Marx's parents convert to escape persecution, as many Jews did, or did they sincerely practice Christianity? == |
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::Ed, in this case I think you are quibbling. Surely you know that in a general sense there were "communists" long before Marx -- some argue that early Christianity preached a kind of communism. What distinguishes Marx's communism from some of those earlier forms -- what led to the development of "Communist Parties" with explicitly revolutionary practices (i.e. exactly what you are refering to) was Marx's analysis of class-conflict. Without that analysis of class conflict, the Russian Revolution would have stopped with the liberal reformers and we wouldn't think of it as "communist." Many of those anarchists and socialists who envision a communist utopia but reject Marx reject Marx (and his political program) because they reject the claim for the historical necessity of the class conflict. ] |
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Asking here because this is not mentioned at all in the article and I'm wondering if it's applicable ] (]) 12:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC) |
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I protected this page to stem the vandalism of an AOL proxy. ] |
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:Marx's family were not very religious Jews. After they converted, they were not very religious Christians either. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 12:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Heinrich Michael in Karl Marx and the Birth of Modern Society goes in detail why Heinrich Marx converted in chapter Karl's Marx Parents. Basically Heinrich converted so he could keep he's job as a lawyer. ] (]) 18:54, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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In the section on "Marx's Influence", we read: "before he died Marx declared that he was not a 'Marxist'". But this is an out-of-context misrepresentation. |
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In truth, those words were uttered by Marx, in 1880, to French workers' leader Jules Guesde and Marx's son-in-law Paul Lafargue, accusing them of "revolutionary phrase-mongering" and of denying the value of reformist struggles. So, if that be Marxism, he said, "ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste". |
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In his '''letter to Conrad Schmidt of 5 August 1890, Engels''' reminds Schmidt that "the materialist conception of history . . . has a lot of friends to whom it serves as an excuse for not studying history. Just as Marx used to say with regard to the French 'Marxists' of the late seventies: 'All I know is that I am not a Marxist.'" |
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I would really like to see the misrepresentation removed.-- ] 20:57, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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I deleted this sentence: |
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: ] was a major influence on Marx in this respect, and it is known that Marx has studied works of Vico extensively. |
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First, what do you mean, "it is known?" Known by whom? Please avoid the sloppy passive voice. I, for one, do not know that Marx studied the works of Vico extensively. Do not use the passive voice especially when something is not common knowledge, instead provide a source. Second, the sentence gives us no isight whatsoever as to what influence Vico's work had on Marx. By way of contrast, the article specifies the influence that Hegel, Feurbach, and Engels had on Marx. If Vico was as influential on marx's thought as these three men, Vico certainly should be mentioned -- but the exact nature of the influence should be explained clearly. Finally, the discussion of Vico's influence should be in a logical place in the article. ] |
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Location of the house
The former home of Karl Marx in Simeonstraße 8 (then Simeongasse 1040) looks rather unremarkable at the beginning of Trier's shopping promenade close to the famous Porta Nigra. Only a few minutes walk leads visitors to the bronze statue of Karl Marx by Wu Weishan – a present from the People's Republic of China to Trier.
Moses Mordecai Levi, otherwise known as Karl Heinrich Marx (May 5, 1818-March 14, 1883) was a German-Jewish philosopher, economist, historian, revolutionary, and journalist from Trier, Germany. Prism Steno Book (talk) 12:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Little to nothing about the personal character or contradictions of Marx as a human being. Seems one sided. Not looking for character assassination but a more balanced view. Redonefifty (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
level-3 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.