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==Opinion piece==
This article feels like an opinion piece based on someone's understanding of where professions are today. Reference to the history of the professionalisation of medicine in different countries shows that the basis of professionalism is the formation of self regulation to ensure quality and to combat devaluation and charlatans. The sequence provided, especially of establishing a training school is largely wrong. Apprenticing was the general route historically.

Professions self regulate until a power group seizes control. Then government regulation and oversight ensure internal processes of control are not abused by the power group for the benefit of the profession and society. Ethical rules are established. Training and education in formal schools and curriculum come later not before. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:24, 21 April 2020 (UTC)</span><!--Missed by SineBot, found by TiTJiL-->

: I agree. Some parts, such as Characteristics and Autonomy, look like a high school essay, not an encyclopedia. There are too many quotations and in-line citations. I have tried to get the section on prestige up to standards more ...''prestigious'' and ''professional''. ] (]) 06:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

== Left out a "rule"? == == Left out a "rule"? ==


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: ... it's hardly universal. Many professions, including those mentioned here, can exist when paid for by the state, the client for their work, to act for third parties (patients, litigants/defendants, citizens) who then isn't the client in the fiscal sense. For example, an English doctor is paid by the ] to be a doctor, and is expected to act professionally towards her patients, her colleagues and other members of the medical profession. The patients are service users, and receive the benefit of the service. They may or may not have actually paid for it. ] (]) 15:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC) : ... it's hardly universal. Many professions, including those mentioned here, can exist when paid for by the state, the client for their work, to act for third parties (patients, litigants/defendants, citizens) who then isn't the client in the fiscal sense. For example, an English doctor is paid by the ] to be a doctor, and is expected to act professionally towards her patients, her colleagues and other members of the medical profession. The patients are service users, and receive the benefit of the service. They may or may not have actually paid for it. ] (]) 15:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
::I agree. One of the skills of profesionals is to manage this triangle. Difficulties are particularly acute when the patient has little or no voice - a child, an elderly stroke patient, a non-verbal autistic person, a foreigner without language or translator... or an animal (in the case of veterinary work). ] (]) 09:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


Eid fazer ] (]) 20:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Eid fazer ] (]) 20:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


== Professional Associations - inappropriate reference ==
== The Profession of Arms ==

Not included on the list of professions, the profession of arms is arguably one of the first and fundamental professions. Far before science and technology lent it's hand to doctors or lawyers it was applied to the profession of arms first I believe the definition has "lost touch" in recent times and would like to engage on any alternate opinions. I believe the profession of arms includes all required criteria. I recognized the following criteria apply to all professions. A defined set of practices. Education and/or training requirements for entry. Some type of measurement for entry (like an examination). A process for advancing its practices. A set of ethics/rules/etc. A controlling or defining body
Why the Military is a profession?
-- A defined set of practices--Successful Military forces throughout history refer to these practices as "Doctrine", a method by-which they do business. -- Education and/or training requirements for entry.-- All professional military forces throughout history have some variation of a "basic training". -- Some type of measurement for entry (like an examination).-- Standards for mental capacity and physical fitness are more often than not the most common example of this. -- A process for advancing its practices.-- Continuous demand/review to upgrade military capacity, capability, or combat power are a constant effort. The US military reviews/edits/trains doctrine to match changes in science, technology or capability. -- A set of ethics/rules/etc.
The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and the Code of Conduct are two examples by-which the US have established ethics and rules. -- A controlling or defining body.-- Militaries throughout history have a Chain-of-Command (CoC). In the US the CoC begins with the President and Secretary of Defense all the way down to Joe in a fox hole. We have executive and judicial oversight by civilians outside the CoC.

With this discussion, I would like the Profession of Arms to be added to the overall list of professions, and should be recognized as one of the fundamental professions alongside Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers.
:A cogent argument in opposition to your view exists on the Talk page of ]. I don't have a dog in this fight, so I will not express an opinion. I think some 'rules' have been enumerated on several pages regarding what defines a 'profession,' but these 'definitions' are not consistently applied, hence the confusion.

:Please sign your posts on talk pages. The sinebot missed your entry, or possibly did not exist when you posted. Consequently, there is no way to contact you on your usertalk page. Thank you. ] (]) 06:12, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Totally agree; also theft out is the Profession of Public Service. ] (]) 15:03, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

== Disinterested ==

I have restored this adjective to the principal definition, as originally defined by the Webbs. In this sense being "disinterested" means being uninfluenced by considerations of personal advantage; it does not mean behaving without feeling or interest. ] (]) 13:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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In the section Etymology, the sentence " liberal professions are professions that require specialized training and that are '''regulated''' by "national governments or ]"." (my bold) shows an inappropriate reference. While "professional bodies" may be appropriate, the intenral link goes to "professional associations" which are correctly IMHO described as "a group that usually seeks to ] a particular ], the interests of individuals and organisations engaged in that profession, and the ]."
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.


While '''regulators''' are very concerned with the public interest, they should not be at all concerned with furthering "the interests of individuals" - the reverse, they are concerned with keeping individuals' conduct within ethical bounds and disciplining them if they are in breach. This subject is addressed in some detail in a page on Professional Ethics (which I haven't examined yet).
{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}


So I recommend removing the link to "professional associations" for the meantime and I will check if a link to Professional Ethics page is more suitable. ] (]) 09:51, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 23:05, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


== Contribution of Muslim scientists == == Lack of Coordination ==


The general area of professionalism seems to me to be unhelpfully split over several articles, including Professionalism, Profession, Professional Conduct, Professional, Professional Ethics, Professional Judgement and Professional Certification. While there is a lot of duplication, there are also gaps in some that are addressed by others. For instance, the response to uncertified persons working as if a professional is not mentioned in Professional Certification. There may also be some disagreements – concerning different professions, geographies and legislation traditions. How could they be better coordinated? ] (]) 10:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
The muslim scientists had played a great role in the development of biological, physical and other more than thousands of education fields. And they continued their efforts for many years and even centuries, so they deserve a lot of success.
They proved that there is a great presence of Muslims. ] (]) 16:56, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

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Left out a "rule"?

Professionals are paid by the person or entity they work on behalf of. e.g. a doctor is paid by their patient, a lawyer by his client. If, in the case of "social work" the client is not the one doing the paying, problems like a conflict of interest arise. Why is this 'payment by client' not in the list of rules? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.252.113 (talk) 10:42, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

... it's hardly universal. Many professions, including those mentioned here, can exist when paid for by the state, the client for their work, to act for third parties (patients, litigants/defendants, citizens) who then isn't the client in the fiscal sense. For example, an English doctor is paid by the NHS to be a doctor, and is expected to act professionally towards her patients, her colleagues and other members of the medical profession. The patients are service users, and receive the benefit of the service. They may or may not have actually paid for it. Matt Whyndham (talk) 15:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree. One of the skills of profesionals is to manage this triangle. Difficulties are particularly acute when the patient has little or no voice - a child, an elderly stroke patient, a non-verbal autistic person, a foreigner without language or translator... or an animal (in the case of veterinary work). DS0022 (talk) 09:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Eid fazer Alex Macuácua (talk) 20:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Professional Associations - inappropriate reference

In the section Etymology, the sentence " liberal professions are professions that require specialized training and that are regulated by "national governments or professional bodies"." (my bold) shows an inappropriate reference. While "professional bodies" may be appropriate, the intenral link goes to "professional associations" which are correctly IMHO described as "a group that usually seeks to further a particular profession, the interests of individuals and organisations engaged in that profession, and the public interest."

While regulators are very concerned with the public interest, they should not be at all concerned with furthering "the interests of individuals" - the reverse, they are concerned with keeping individuals' conduct within ethical bounds and disciplining them if they are in breach. This subject is addressed in some detail in a page on Professional Ethics (which I haven't examined yet).

So I recommend removing the link to "professional associations" for the meantime and I will check if a link to Professional Ethics page is more suitable. DS0022 (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Lack of Coordination

The general area of professionalism seems to me to be unhelpfully split over several articles, including Professionalism, Profession, Professional Conduct, Professional, Professional Ethics, Professional Judgement and Professional Certification. While there is a lot of duplication, there are also gaps in some that are addressed by others. For instance, the response to uncertified persons working as if a professional is not mentioned in Professional Certification. There may also be some disagreements – concerning different professions, geographies and legislation traditions. How could they be better coordinated? DS0022 (talk) 10:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

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