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⚫ == Left out a "rule"? ==


⚫ Professionals are paid by the person or entity they work on behalf of. e.g. a doctor is paid by their patient, a lawyer by his client. If, in the case of "social work" the client is not the one doing the paying, problems like a conflict of interest arise. Why is this 'payment by client' not in the list of rules? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:42, 2 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Science as not fitting rule 5 and 6 ==


: ... it's hardly universal. Many professions, including those mentioned here, can exist when paid for by the state, the client for their work, to act for third parties (patients, litigants/defendants, citizens) who then isn't the client in the fiscal sense. For example, an English doctor is paid by the ] to be a doctor, and is expected to act professionally towards her patients, her colleagues and other members of the medical profession. The patients are service users, and receive the benefit of the service. They may or may not have actually paid for it. ] (]) 15:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
Plenty of national associations out there... many commonwealth nations have a Royal Society (not to mention THE Royal Society). America has the AAAS. All of these societies have codes of ethics. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:22, 13 January 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::I agree. One of the skills of profesionals is to manage this triangle. Difficulties are particularly acute when the patient has little or no voice - a child, an elderly stroke patient, a non-verbal autistic person, a foreigner without language or translator... or an animal (in the case of veterinary work). ] (]) 09:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


⚫ Eid fazer ] (]) 20:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Agreed. ''Scientist'' is quite a broad term. In the UK, the terms ], ] and ] are legally protected and only granted to professionals.
--] (]) 10:16, 12 April 2012 (UTC)


== Professional Associations - inappropriate reference ==
== Philosophy ==


In the section Etymology, the sentence " liberal professions are professions that require specialized training and that are '''regulated''' by "national governments or ]"." (my bold) shows an inappropriate reference. While "professional bodies" may be appropriate, the intenral link goes to "professional associations" which are correctly IMHO described as "a group that usually seeks to ] a particular ], the interests of individuals and organisations engaged in that profession, and the ]."
Philosophy does not meet criteria 6-7, but it does meet 5. For example, in America, we have the ]. So I have changed the entry to reflect this fact.


While '''regulators''' are very concerned with the public interest, they should not be at all concerned with furthering "the interests of individuals" - the reverse, they are concerned with keeping individuals' conduct within ethical bounds and disciplining them if they are in breach. This subject is addressed in some detail in a page on Professional Ethics (which I haven't examined yet).
Concerning criteria 6-7: Philosophy does (and probably always will) fail to meet criteria 7, but criteria 6 is a strange standard to apply to philosophy. Given that philosophy takes ethics as one of its topics of research, philosophy is uniquely unable to adopt a profession-wide standard of ethics. If the profession is inquiring into, disagreeing over, debating, and questioning ethics, the profession cannot have a profession-wide ethical standard. Which is to say, you can't have a profession-wide ethics for philosophy for the same reason you can't have a profession-wide theory of physics for science. Inquiry into, disagreement over, debate concerning wildly different theories of physics is one of the subjects of science and so science cannot have a theory of physics imposed upon it as a professional standard.


So I recommend removing the link to "professional associations" for the meantime and I will check if a link to Professional Ethics page is more suitable. ] (]) 09:51, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I am not saying criteria 6 is an incorrect criteria for professions, but this would seem to be a special case given the nature of this particular profession that it only makes sense to judge philosophy by criteria 1-5 and 7. Which is to say, that given the unique circumstances regarding philosophy, criteria 6 doesn't make sense as a criteria for judging whether or not philosophy is a profession. Criteria 6 must be "bracketed"/"ignored" here since philosophy uniquely cannot force a philosophical ethical theory on the field as a whole. Good general criteria often need to make exceptions for unique cases, and philosophy is one of them concerning criteria 6 given that ethics is a part of the subject matter of philosophy.


== Lack of Coordination ==
⚫ - ] (]) 22:34, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

::I tried keeping it short, but in some way indicating that while philosophy fails to meet criteria 6-7, criteria 6 may be inappropriate to apply in this case. Here's the way I put it in the entry: "Philosophers (does not fulfill criteria 7, thus does not qualify as a profession as described above; also does not fulfill criteria 6, but 6 may be uniquely inapplicable in this case since ethics is a subject in philosophy)" - ] (]) 22:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

== Doctors are not necessarily physicians ==

The link of Doctor should be corrected and pointed to http://en.wikipedia.org/Doctor_%28title%29 which is more appropriate than physician. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:14, 7 February 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Provincial color? ==

What the hell is this? I google and only get paint and wood stain colors. As a section it seems trivial and unnecessary. Maaaaaybe it would be worth keeping as a sentence in the History section. ] (]) 19:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
:Good point. was very odd and I have undone it. – ] '''<font color="#FF0000">]</font>'''] 21:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

⚫ == Left out a "rule"? ==


The general area of professionalism seems to me to be unhelpfully split over several articles, including Professionalism, Profession, Professional Conduct, Professional, Professional Ethics, Professional Judgement and Professional Certification. While there is a lot of duplication, there are also gaps in some that are addressed by others. For instance, the response to uncertified persons working as if a professional is not mentioned in Professional Certification. There may also be some disagreements – concerning different professions, geographies and legislation traditions. How could they be better coordinated? ] (]) 10:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
⚫ Professionals are paid by the person or entity they work on behalf of. e.g. a doctor is paid by their patient, a lawyer by his client. If, in the case of "social work" the client is not the one doing the paying, problems like conflict of interest arise. Why is this 'payment by client' not in the list of rules? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:42, 2 February 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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Left out a "rule"?

Professionals are paid by the person or entity they work on behalf of. e.g. a doctor is paid by their patient, a lawyer by his client. If, in the case of "social work" the client is not the one doing the paying, problems like a conflict of interest arise. Why is this 'payment by client' not in the list of rules? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.252.113 (talk) 10:42, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

... it's hardly universal. Many professions, including those mentioned here, can exist when paid for by the state, the client for their work, to act for third parties (patients, litigants/defendants, citizens) who then isn't the client in the fiscal sense. For example, an English doctor is paid by the NHS to be a doctor, and is expected to act professionally towards her patients, her colleagues and other members of the medical profession. The patients are service users, and receive the benefit of the service. They may or may not have actually paid for it. Matt Whyndham (talk) 15:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree. One of the skills of profesionals is to manage this triangle. Difficulties are particularly acute when the patient has little or no voice - a child, an elderly stroke patient, a non-verbal autistic person, a foreigner without language or translator... or an animal (in the case of veterinary work). DS0022 (talk) 09:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Eid fazer Alex Macuácua (talk) 20:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Professional Associations - inappropriate reference

In the section Etymology, the sentence " liberal professions are professions that require specialized training and that are regulated by "national governments or professional bodies"." (my bold) shows an inappropriate reference. While "professional bodies" may be appropriate, the intenral link goes to "professional associations" which are correctly IMHO described as "a group that usually seeks to further a particular profession, the interests of individuals and organisations engaged in that profession, and the public interest."

While regulators are very concerned with the public interest, they should not be at all concerned with furthering "the interests of individuals" - the reverse, they are concerned with keeping individuals' conduct within ethical bounds and disciplining them if they are in breach. This subject is addressed in some detail in a page on Professional Ethics (which I haven't examined yet).

So I recommend removing the link to "professional associations" for the meantime and I will check if a link to Professional Ethics page is more suitable. DS0022 (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Lack of Coordination

The general area of professionalism seems to me to be unhelpfully split over several articles, including Professionalism, Profession, Professional Conduct, Professional, Professional Ethics, Professional Judgement and Professional Certification. While there is a lot of duplication, there are also gaps in some that are addressed by others. For instance, the response to uncertified persons working as if a professional is not mentioned in Professional Certification. There may also be some disagreements – concerning different professions, geographies and legislation traditions. How could they be better coordinated? DS0022 (talk) 10:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

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