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{{Short description|New Zealand dairy farmer and shipwreck hunter}} {{Short description|New Zealand dairy farmer and shipwreck hunter}}
{{Use New Zealand English|date=November 2024}} {{Use New Zealand English|date=November 2024}}
{{Sections|date=November 2024}} {{Use dmy dates|date=December 2024}}
{{Infobox person {{Infobox person
| name = Noel Edward Hilliam | name = Noel Hilliam
| image = | image =
| alt = | alt =
| caption = | caption =
| birth_name = Noel Edward Hilliam
| birth_date ={{Birth date|1937|12|25}} | birth_date =
| birth_place = ], Northland, New Zealand
| birth_place =
| death_date = {{Death date and age|2017|09|10|1937|12|25}} | death_date = {{Death date|2017|09|10|df=y}}
| death_place = ] | death_place = ]
| other_names = | other_names =
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| notable_works = | notable_works =
}} }}
'''Noel Hilliam''' (died 10 September 2017)<ref name=dies>{{cite news |title=Dargaville historian Noel Hilliam passes away |date=11 September 2017 |url= https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/dargaville-historian-noel-hilliam-passes-away/Y7EXYW7NEEK56WJN5CDXBXCLMQ/ |newspaper=Northern Advocate |via=nzherald.co.nz |access-date=16 November 2024}}</ref> was a dairy farmer,<ref name=Newshub2017/><ref name=McMartin/> shipwreck hunter, and often controversial amateur historian from ], in Northland, New Zealand.<ref name=dies/><ref name=Hamilton2017/><ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under- Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=136}}</ref> '''Noel Edward Hilliam''' (died 10 September 2017)<ref name=dies>{{cite news |title=Dargaville historian Noel Hilliam passes away |date=11 September 2017 |url= https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/dargaville-historian-noel-hilliam-passes-away/Y7EXYW7NEEK56WJN5CDXBXCLMQ/ |newspaper=Northern Advocate |via=nzherald.co.nz |access-date=16 November 2024}}</ref> was a dairy farmer,<ref name=Newshub2017/><ref name=McMartin/> shipwreck hunter, and often controversial amateur historian from ], in Northland, New Zealand.<ref name=dies/><ref name=Hamilton2017/><ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=136}}</ref>


]
Hilliam researched and documented a large number of shipwrecks in the ], including the numerous wrecks at the ]. Hilliam claimed to have material he had salvaged from wrecks including, a 'rubber pintle' alleged to date from 1590, planks of wood from 1560 and more.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under- Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=137}}</ref> There are 110 recorded shipwrecks on the Kaipara and Ripiro Beach coast, but Hilliam claimed to know of 153 (17 of which are unidentified).<ref>{{cite web |title=Quakes and big tides work for wreck spotter |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/quakes-and-big-tides-work-for-wreck-spotter/QTKVTTW22WRNS32KH63W7BSKCQ/ |website=NZ Herald |access-date=22 November 2024}}</ref>

Hilliam researched and documented a large number of shipwrecks in the ], including the numerous wrecks at the ]. Hilliam claimed to have material he had salvaged from wrecks including, a "rubber pintle" alleged to date from 1590, planks of wood from 1560 and more.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=137}}</ref> There are 110 recorded shipwrecks on the Kaipara and Ripiro Beach coast, but Hilliam claimed to know of 153 (17 of which are unidentified).<ref>{{cite web |title=Quakes and big tides work for wreck spotter |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/quakes-and-big-tides-work-for-wreck-spotter/QTKVTTW22WRNS32KH63W7BSKCQ/ |website=NZ Herald |access-date=22 November 2024}}</ref>


==Notable dates and claims== ==Notable dates and claims==
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===Ancient Spanish and Dutch ships=== ===Ancient Spanish and Dutch ships===


In 1982, Hilliam reported seeing the wreck of a Spanish ship while flying over ], but the 'swirling sands quickly covered the find over again'.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under- Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=68}}</ref> In 1982, Hilliam reported seeing the wreck of a Spanish ship while flying over ], but the "swirling sands quickly covered the find over again".<ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=68}}</ref>


In the same year Hilliam identified a wooden ship exposed in the shallow waters of Midge Bay, north of the Kaipara Harbour entrance. After researching this, Hilliam suggests that the wreck could be from between the voyages of Tasman & Cook – pointing towards further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific. This wreck is suggested to be New Zealand's oldest shipwreck.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Palmer |first1=Jonathan |last2=Turney |first2=Chris |last3=Hogg |first3=Alan |last4=Hilliam |first4=Noel |last5=Watson |first5=Matt |last6=van Sebille |first6=Erik |last7=Cowie |first7=Winston |last8=Jones |first8=Richard |last9=Petchey |first9=Fiona |title=The discovery of New Zealand's oldest shipwreck – possible evidence of further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific |journal=Journal of Archaeological Science |date=2014 |volume=42 |pages=435–441 |doi=10.1016/j.jas.2013.11.024 |bibcode=2014JArSc..42..435P |url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313004202}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=Shipwreck points to 18th-century race to colonize New Zealand |url=https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2014.14464.pdf |website=Nature.com |access-date=22 November 2024}}</ref> In the same year Hilliam identified a wooden ship exposed in the shallow waters of Midge Bay, north of the Kaipara Harbour entrance. After researching this, Hilliam suggests that the wreck could be from between the voyages of Tasman & Cook – pointing towards further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific. This wreck is suggested to be New Zealand's oldest shipwreck.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Palmer |first1=Jonathan |last2=Turney |first2=Chris |last3=Hogg |first3=Alan |last4=Hilliam |first4=Noel |last5=Watson |first5=Matt |last6=van Sebille |first6=Erik |last7=Cowie |first7=Winston |last8=Jones |first8=Richard |last9=Petchey |first9=Fiona |title=The discovery of New Zealand's oldest shipwreck – possible evidence of further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific |journal=Journal of Archaeological Science |date=2014 |volume=42 |pages=435–441 |doi=10.1016/j.jas.2013.11.024 |bibcode=2014JArSc..42..435P |url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313004202}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |title=Shipwreck points to 18th-century race to colonize New Zealand |url=https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2014.14464.pdf |journal=Nature |date=2014 |doi=10.1038/nature.2014.14464 |access-date=22 November 2024 |last1=Callaway |first1=Ewen }}</ref>


===Pre-Māori village=== ===Pre-Māori village===


]In 1998, elders of ] restricted access to sacred Māori sites in Kaipara after Hilliam visited without permission and claimed to have discovered a prehistoric village, allegedly occupied by a people displaced by Māori around 600 years ago.<ref name=Newshub2017/><ref>{{cite web |title="Ruins may show Incas beat Māori to New Zealand?" |url=https://www.morien-institute.org/dlnews1998.html |website=Morien Institute|date=22 February 2023 }}</ref> Although he did not disclose the location, it is locally suggested to be the man-made, stone structures in the ].<ref>{{cite web |last=Taylor |first=Michael |date=1986 |title=Report on the Proposed Historic and Traditional (Archaeological) Reserve in Waipoua State Forest 13 |url=https://whangarei.recollect.co.nz/nodes/view/1769#idx14068 |publisher=New Zealand Forest Service |via=Whangarei District Libraries |access-date=14 November 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Lawlor |first1=Ian |title=Waipoua Archaeological Sites and Te Roroa History |url=https://forms.justice.govt.nz/search/Documents/WT/wt_DOC_111494834/Wai%2038%2C%20D022(a).pdf |website=Justice Govt NZ |date=20 February 1990}}</ref> Hilliam has since argued that these structures were evidence of pre-Māori settlement.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Dick |first1=Allan |title=The mysteries of Waipoua Forest |journal=NZ Today |date=2005 |volume=14 |pages=10–23 |url=https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/permalink/f/1fro764/INNZ7121774290002837 |language=English |issn=1176-3051}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last=Little |first=Paul |date=31 July 2016 |title=The truth is possibly out there |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paul-little-the-truth-is-possbily-out-there/IRMAB2GUFNE6NDAKX6TCMGYC2Q/ |website=New Zealand Herald |access-date=14 November 2024}}</ref> Hilliam has worked in the forest near this location and suggested that the 75 year embargo on the site and government redacted information was a conspiracy to hide evidence of pre-Māori settlers.<ref>{{cite web |title=Waipoua Forest, Northland – Stone Ruins |url= https://walkinnz.home.blog/tag/stones/ |website=NZ Short Walks|date=8 October 2020 }}</ref> In reality, the embargo was lifted in 1996 (67 years early).<ref>{{cite web |last=Williams |first=David |date=6 November 2023 |title=NZ forest structure mystery is based on myth |url= https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/nz-forest-structure-mystery-is-based-on-myth/ |website=AAP Factcheck}}</ref> ]In 1998, elders of ] restricted access to sacred Māori sites in Kaipara after Hilliam visited without permission and claimed to have discovered a prehistoric village, allegedly occupied by a people displaced by Māori around 600 years ago.<ref name=Newshub2017/><ref>{{cite web |title="Ruins may show Incas beat Māori to New Zealand?" |url=https://www.morien-institute.org/dlnews1998.html |website=Morien Institute|date=22 February 2023 }}</ref> Although he did not disclose the location, it is locally suggested to be the man-made, stone structures in the ].<ref>{{cite web |last=Taylor |first=Michael |date=1986 |title=Report on the Proposed Historic and Traditional (Archaeological) Reserve in Waipoua State Forest 13 |url=https://whangarei.recollect.co.nz/nodes/view/1769#idx14068 |publisher=New Zealand Forest Service |via=Whangarei District Libraries |access-date=14 November 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Lawlor |first1=Ian |title=Waipoua Archaeological Sites and Te Roroa History |url=https://forms.justice.govt.nz/search/Documents/WT/wt_DOC_111494834/Wai%2038%2C%20D022(a).pdf |website=Justice Govt NZ |date=20 February 1990}}</ref> Hilliam has since argued that these structures were evidence of pre-Māori settlement.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Dick |first1=Allan |title=The mysteries of Waipoua Forest |journal=NZ Today |date=2005 |volume=14 |pages=10–23 |url=https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/permalink/f/1fro764/INNZ7121774290002837 |language=English |issn=1176-3051}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last=Little |first=Paul |date=31 July 2016 |title=The truth is possibly out there |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paul-little-the-truth-is-possbily-out-there/IRMAB2GUFNE6NDAKX6TCMGYC2Q/ |website=New Zealand Herald |access-date=14 November 2024}}</ref> Hilliam has worked in the forest near this location and suggested that the 75 year embargo on the site and government redacted information was a conspiracy to hide evidence of pre-Māori settlers.<ref>{{cite web |title=Waipoua Forest, Northland – Stone Ruins |url= https://walkinnz.home.blog/tag/stones/ |website=NZ Short Walks|date=8 October 2020 }}</ref> In reality, the embargo was lifted in 1996 (67 years early).<ref>{{cite web |last=Williams |first=David |date=6 November 2023 |title=NZ forest structure mystery is based on myth |url= https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/nz-forest-structure-mystery-is-based-on-myth/ |website=AAP Factcheck}}</ref>


===Historic shipwreck uncovered=== ===Historic shipwreck uncovered===
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In 2004, after pursuing it for 30 years, Hilliam participated in excavating a shipwreck west of Dargaville. This shipwreck had previously surfaced in both 1973 and 1909. Items recovered including an anchor chain and a 1.5-meter cannon known as a ].<ref>{{cite web |last=Stirling |first=Rose |date=24 August 2011 |title=Ancient facts unfold |url=https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/northland/dargaville-districts/5420481/Ancient-facts-unfold |website=Stuff.nz}}</ref> In 2004, after pursuing it for 30 years, Hilliam participated in excavating a shipwreck west of Dargaville. This shipwreck had previously surfaced in both 1973 and 1909. Items recovered including an anchor chain and a 1.5-meter cannon known as a ].<ref>{{cite web |last=Stirling |first=Rose |date=24 August 2011 |title=Ancient facts unfold |url=https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/northland/dargaville-districts/5420481/Ancient-facts-unfold |website=Stuff.nz}}</ref>


===Claim of U-Boat discovery=== ===Claim of U-boat discovery===


In 2008 The Underwater Heritage Group (of which Hilliam was vice-president) announced that they had discovered a German ] off the ]. Hilliam claimed the submarine had been 'observed seven times' and three divers had been to it – however, no photographs exist and it has not since been seen.<ref>{{cite web |title=U-196 found off New Zealand ? |url=https://uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,78500,78513 |website=Uboat.net}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=German U-boat found in Northland waters, group claims |url=https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/11147/german-u-boat-found-in-northland-waters,-group-claims |website=RNZ|date=7 November 2008 }}</ref> In 2008 The Underwater Heritage Group (of which Hilliam was vice-president) announced that they had discovered a German ] off the ]. Hilliam claimed the submarine had been "observed seven times" and three divers had been to it – however, no photographs exist and it has not since been seen.<ref>{{cite web |title=U-196 found off New Zealand ? |url=https://uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,78500,78513 |website=Uboat.net}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=German U-boat found in Northland waters, group claims |url=https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/11147/german-u-boat-found-in-northland-waters,-group-claims |website=RNZ|date=7 November 2008 }}</ref>


===Spanish caravel - San Lesmes=== ===Spanish caravel ''San Lesmes''===


In 2009, it was suggested that Spanish sailors might have reached New Zealand over a century before ]. An unnamed, 'Oxford-educated' researcher examined these claims, based on Hilliam's belief that a Spanish ship visited in the 16th century and sank near ] on Northlands west coast. It was suggested by ] (a contemporary of Hilliam<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Palmer |first1=Jonathan |last2=Turney |first2=Chris |last3=Hogg |first3=Alan |last4=Hilliam |first4=Noel |last5=Watson |first5=Matt |last6=van Sebille |first6=Erik |last7=Cowie |first7=Winston |last8=Jones |first8=Richard |last9=Petchey |first9=Fiona |title=The discovery of New Zealand's oldest shipwreck – possible evidence of further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific |journal=Journal of Archaeological Science |date=2014 |volume=42 |pages=435–441 |doi=10.1016/j.jas.2013.11.024 |bibcode=2014JArSc..42..435P |url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313004202}}</ref>) that this ship was the ] San Lesmes<ref>{{cite web |title=Spanish twists provoke research |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/spanish-twists-provoke-research/M3V3ODWSQRCZ5Y35UDKWYQLZUI/ |website=Northern Advocate |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under- Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=68}}</ref>. Hilliam claimed that 22 of the 53 crew members were from ], Spain—a name also found in a Northland area where the wreck was seen (e.g. the Northland town of ]). He also claimed that the main street in that Spanish town was ‘Rua Tui’, which resembles a Māori name.<ref name=Newshub2017>{{cite news |title=From a non-Māori Maui to Spanish shipwrecks: Who is Noel Hilliam? |url=https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/05/from-a-non-maori-maui-to-spanish-shipwrecks-who-is-noel-hilliam.html |website=Newshub |date=19 May 2017}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=Spanish twists provoke research |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/spanish-twists-provoke-research/M3V3ODWSQRCZ5Y35UDKWYQLZUI/ |work=Northern Advocate |date=27 December 2009 |via=nzherald.co.nz}}</ref> There are at least four streets in Spain called 'Rúa Tui' and while the name does sound like Māori , 'Rúa' is a Spanish word meaning 'street'. The town of Aranga does not have a street called Rúa Tui, although the nearby (about 40 mins away) towns of ] and ] both do. It is of note that there are multiple theories on where the caravel San Lesmes ended up, or if it simply sunk somewhere in the pacific. ]'s book, ''The Lost Caravel'' suggests it sunk at the ] with theories of Polynesians with European features and Spanish words.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Langdon |first1=Robert |title=The Lost Caravel |date=1975 |publisher=Pacific Publications |location=Sydney |isbn=9780858070219}}</ref> In 2009, it was suggested that Spanish sailors might have reached New Zealand over a century before ]. An unnamed, "Oxford-educated" researcher examined these claims, based on Hilliam's belief that a Spanish ship visited in the 16th century and sank near ] on Northland's west coast. It was suggested by ] (a contemporary of Hilliam<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Palmer |first1=Jonathan |last2=Turney |first2=Chris |last3=Hogg |first3=Alan |last4=Hilliam |first4=Noel |last5=Watson |first5=Matt |last6=van Sebille |first6=Erik |last7=Cowie |first7=Winston |last8=Jones |first8=Richard |last9=Petchey |first9=Fiona |title=The discovery of New Zealand's oldest shipwreck – possible evidence of further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific |journal=Journal of Archaeological Science |date=2014 |volume=42 |pages=435–441 |doi=10.1016/j.jas.2013.11.024 |bibcode=2014JArSc..42..435P |url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313004202}}</ref>) that this ship was the ] ''San Lesmes''.<ref>{{cite web |title=Spanish twists provoke research |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/spanish-twists-provoke-research/M3V3ODWSQRCZ5Y35UDKWYQLZUI/ |website=Northern Advocate |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=68}}</ref> Hilliam claimed that 22 of the 53 crew members were from ], Spain—a name also found in a Northland area where the wreck was seen (e.g. the Northland town of ]). He also claimed that the main street in that Spanish town was ‘Rua Tui’, which resembles a Māori name.<ref name=Newshub2017>{{cite news |url-status=dead |title=From a non-Māori Maui to Spanish shipwrecks: Who is Noel Hilliam? |url= https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/05/from-a-non-maori-maui-to-spanish-shipwrecks-who-is-noel-hilliam.html |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20240413121559/https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/05/from-a-non-maori-maui-to-spanish-shipwrecks-who-is-noel-hilliam.html |archive-date=13 April 2024 |work=Newshub |date=19 May 2017}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=Spanish twists provoke research |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/spanish-twists-provoke-research/M3V3ODWSQRCZ5Y35UDKWYQLZUI/ |work=Northern Advocate |date=27 December 2009 |via=nzherald.co.nz}}</ref> There are at least four streets in Spain called ''Rúa Tui'' and while the name does sound like Māori , ''Rúa'' is a Spanish word meaning ''street''. The town of Aranga does not have a street called ''Rúa Tui'', although the nearby (about 40 mins away) towns of ] and ] both do. It is of note that there are multiple theories on where the caravel ''San Lesmes'' ended up, or if it simply sunk somewhere in the pacific. ]'s book, ''The Lost Caravel'' suggests it sunk at the ] with theories of Polynesians with European features and Spanish words.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Langdon |first1=Robert |title=The Lost Caravel |date=1975 |publisher=Pacific Publications |location=Sydney |isbn=9780858070219}}</ref>


===Co-authored ''To the Ends of the Earth''=== ===Co-authored ''To the Ends of the Earth''===
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===Claims of P-51 in Northern Wairoa=== ===Claims of P-51 in Northern Wairoa===


In 2016, Hilliam claimed to find remains of a ] in the ].<ref>{{cite web |title=Dargaville Aero Club |url=https://dargavilleac.weebly.com/uploads/3/2/2/3/32238283/summer_2016_screen.pdf |website=Dargaville EAC}}</ref> Although attempts were made, they were not able to successfully find and raise the plane before Hilliams death. No photographic evidence exists of the plane in the river. In 2016, Hilliam claimed to find remains of a ] in the ].<ref>{{cite web |title=Dargaville Aero Club |url=https://dargavilleac.weebly.com/uploads/3/2/2/3/32238283/summer_2016_screen.pdf |website=Dargaville EAC}}</ref> Although attempts were made, they were not able to successfully find and raise the plane before Hilliam's death. No photographic evidence exists of the plane in the river.


===Welsh skulls=== ===Welsh skulls===
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==Doubt surrounding Hilliam's claims== ==Doubt surrounding Hilliam's claims==
{{Original research section|date=December 2024}}
===Anonymous "experts"===


Hilliam has frequently relied on anonymous "experts" who cannot be verified<ref>{{cite web |title=EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE |url=https://www.mediacouncil.org.nz/rulings/ewan-morris-against-northern-advocate/ |website=Media Council |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref>. Examples include:
===Anonymous 'experts'===


*An unnamed "Oxford-educated" researcher examined Hilliam's claims of the Spanish ship ''San Lesmes''.<ref>{{cite news |title=Spanish twists provoke research |url= https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/spanish-twists-provoke-research/M3V3ODWSQRCZ5Y35UDKWYQLZUI/ |work=The Northern Advocate}}</ref>
Hilliam had a tendency to rely on anonymous 'experts' who cannot be verified. Examples include:


*The "Welsh" skulls were examined by a “forensic expert” from Edinburgh University.<ref>{{cite web |title=EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE |url=https://www.mediacouncil.org.nz/rulings/ewan-morris-against-northern-advocate/ |website=Media Council |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref> Hilliam then said the person had since died.<ref>{{cite web |title=A Northland man is under investigation by Heritage New Zealand for tampering with historic burial sites |url=https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/93122299/a-northland-man-is-under-investigation-by-heritage-new-zealand-for-tampering-with-historic-burial-sites |website=Stuff.nz |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref> A spokesperson for the University of Edinburgh said none of their academics contributed to the project.<ref>{{cite web |title=EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE |url=https://www.mediacouncil.org.nz/rulings/ewan-morris-against-northern-advocate/ |website=Media Council |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref><ref name=Hamilton2017>{{cite web |last=Hamilton |first=Scott |title=The white tangata whenua, and other bullshit from the 'One New Zealand' crew |url=https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/22-05-2017/the-white-tangata-whenua-and-other-bullshit-from-the-one-new-zealand-crew |website=The Spinoff |date=22 May 2017 |access-date=13 November 2024}}</ref><ref name=McMartin>{{cite web |last1=McMartin |first1=Anna |title=Ake ake ake |url=https://theendisnaenae.substack.com/p/ake-ake-ake |website=The End is Naenae|date=8 September 2024 }}</ref>
*An unnamed, 'Oxford-educated' researcher examined Hilliam's claims of the Spanish ship San Lesmes.<ref>{{cite web |title=Spanish twists provoke research |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/spanish-twists-provoke-research/M3V3ODWSQRCZ5Y35UDKWYQLZUI/ |website=The Northern Advocate}}</ref>


*The 'welsh' skulls were examined by a “forensic expert” from Edinburgh University. Hilliam then said the person had since passed away. A spokesperson for the University of Edinburgh said none of their academics contributed to the project.<ref>{{cite web |title=A Northland man is under investigation by Heritage New Zealand for tampering with historic burial sites |url=https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/93122299/a-northland-man-is-under-investigation-by-heritage-new-zealand-for-tampering-with-historic-burial-sites |website=Stuff.nz |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE |url=https://www.mediacouncil.org.nz/rulings/ewan-morris-against-northern-advocate/ |website=Media Council |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref> *Hilliam said he presented a forensic pathologist ("one of the top 10 in the world"<ref>{{cite news |title=No legal action over Noel Hilliam's ''Welsh'' Māori skulls |url= https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/no-legal-action-over-noel-hilliams-welsh-maori-skulls/D4SCDFKFRJM5NFV63ILX4GSTNQ/#google_vignette |work=Northern Advocate |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref>) with teeth for DNA testing. However, he would "not name them or the institutions where they work".<ref>{{cite news |title=No legal action over Noel Hilliam's ''Welsh'' Māori skulls |url= https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/no-legal-action-over-noel-hilliams-welsh-maori-skulls/D4SCDFKFRJM5NFV63ILX4GSTNQ/#google_vignette |work=Northern Advocate |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref>


*Hilliam said he presented a forensic pathologist ("one of the top 10 in the world") with teeth for DNA testing. However, he would 'not name them or the institution's where they work'.<ref>{{cite web |title=No legal action over Noel Hilliam's ''Welsh'' Māori skulls |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/no-legal-action-over-noel-hilliams-welsh-maori-skulls/D4SCDFKFRJM5NFV63ILX4GSTNQ/#google_vignette |website=Northern Advocate |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref> *Hilliam used an unnamed "expert in computer-imaged facial reconstruction"<ref>{{cite news |title=No legal action over Noel Hilliam's ''Welsh'' Māori skulls |url= https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/no-legal-action-over-noel-hilliams-welsh-maori-skulls/D4SCDFKFRJM5NFV63ILX4GSTNQ/#google_vignette |work=Northern Advocate |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref> to create images purporting to show what the pre-Māori settlers looked like. These were published by a ''Northern Advocate'' journalist. The article was soon removed, and an apology issued by the newspaper. <ref>{{cite web |title=EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE |url=https://www.mediacouncil.org.nz/rulings/ewan-morris-against-northern-advocate/ |website=Media Council |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref>

*Hilliam used an unnamed 'expert in computer-imaged facial reconstruction' to create images purporting to show what the pre-Māori settlers looked like. These were published by a Northern Advocate journalist. The article was soon removed and an apology issued by the newspaper. <ref>{{cite web |title=EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE |url=https://www.mediacouncil.org.nz/rulings/ewan-morris-against-northern-advocate/ |website=Media Council |access-date=19 November 2024}}</ref>


===Unverified claims=== ===Unverified claims===
Line 75: Line 78:
Many of his archaeological finds have not been verified or, in some cases, even seen by anyone outside of Hilliam's group of friends. Examples include: Many of his archaeological finds have not been verified or, in some cases, even seen by anyone outside of Hilliam's group of friends. Examples include:


*The remains of the 'Spanish ship' Hilliam found in 1982 vanished before he could show it to anyone. It has not been seen since. *The remains of the "Spanish ship" Hilliam found in 1982 vanished before he could show it to anyone. It has not been seen since.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Tasker |first1=John |date=2012 |title=Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under – Volume Three |isbn=9781470981136 |page=68}}</ref>
*German U-boat off the Kaipara Coast. It was apparently seen 'seven times' and three divers had been to it. But no pictures exist, no one else has verified the find and the Hilliam refused to share the location.<ref>{{cite web |title=German U-boat found in Northland waters, group claims |url=https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/11147/german-u-boat-found-in-northland-waters,-group-claims |website=RNZ|date=7 November 2008 }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=U-196 found off New Zealand ? |url=https://uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,78500,78513 |website=Uboat.net}}</ref> *German U-boat off the Kaipara Coast. It was apparently seen "seven times" and three divers had been to it. But no pictures exist, no one else has verified the find and Hilliam refused to share the location.<ref>{{cite web |title=German U-boat found in Northland waters, group claims |url=https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/11147/german-u-boat-found-in-northland-waters,-group-claims |website=RNZ|date=7 November 2008 }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=U-196 found off New Zealand ? |url=https://uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,78500,78513 |website=Uboat.net}}</ref>
*Prehistoric village. In 1998 Hilliam claimed to have discovered a prehistoric village once occupied by a pre-Māori civilisation.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Dick |first1=Allan |title=The mysteries of Waipoua Forest |journal=NZ Today |date=2005 |volume=14 |pages=10–23 |url=https://natlib-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/permalink/f/1fro764/INNZ7121774290002837 |language=English |issn=1176-3051}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last=Little |first=Paul |date=31 July 2016 |title=The truth is possibly out there |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paul-little-the-truth-is-possbily-out-there/IRMAB2GUFNE6NDAKX6TCMGYC2Q/ |website=New Zealand Herald |access-date=14 November 2024}}</ref><ref name=Newshub2017/><ref>{{cite web |title="Ruins may show Incas beat Māori to New Zealand?" |url=https://www.morien-institute.org/dlnews1998.html |website=Morien Institute|date=22 February 2023 }}</ref> However, he did not disclose the location.<ref>{{cite web |last=Taylor |first=Michael |date=1986 |title=Report on the Proposed Historic and Traditional (Archaeological) Reserve in Waipoua State Forest 13 |url=https://whangarei.recollect.co.nz/nodes/view/1769#idx14068 |publisher=New Zealand Forest Service |via=Whangarei District Libraries |access-date=14 November 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Lawlor |first1=Ian |title=Waipoua Archaeological Sites and Te Roroa History |url=https://forms.justice.govt.nz/search/Documents/WT/wt_DOC_111494834/Wai%2038%2C%20D022(a).pdf |website=Justice Govt NZ |date=20 February 1990}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=Waipoua Forest, Northland – Stone Ruins |url= https://walkinnz.home.blog/tag/stones/ |website=NZ Short Walks|date=8 October 2020 }}</ref>
*Prehistoric village. In 1998 Hilliam claimed to have discovered a prehistoric village once occupied by a pre-Māori civilisation. However, he did not disclose the location.
*P51 Mustang in the Wairoa River. No evidence exists to show the plane exists in the Wairoa River.<ref>{{cite web |title=Dargaville Aero Club |url=https://dargavilleac.weebly.com/uploads/3/2/2/3/32238283/summer_2016_screen.pdf |website=Dargaville EAC}}</ref> *P51 Mustang in the Wairoa River. No evidence exists to show the plane exists in the Wairoa River.<ref>{{cite web |title=Dargaville Aero Club |url=https://dargavilleac.weebly.com/uploads/3/2/2/3/32238283/summer_2016_screen.pdf |website=Dargaville EAC}}</ref>


==Roles== ==Roles==
*First president of the New Zealand Underwater Heritage Group (NZUHG)<ref>{{cite web |last1=Laird |first1=Lindy |title=Kelly Tarlton trophy goes to late Northland shipwreck pioneer Noel Hilliam |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/kelly-tarlton-trophy-goes-to-late-northland-shipwreck-pioneer-noel-hilliam/RJUGRP7HALQJDGKBH2PA6S2SMA/ |website=The Northern Advocate |access-date=9 December 2024}}</ref>

*Committee member of the Northland Historic Places Trust<ref>{{cite news |title=Northern Farming Lifestyles |url=https://issuu.com/nsmm/docs/nfl_mar_2013 |access-date=9 December 2024 |issue=March 2013}}</ref>
*First president of the New Zealand Underwater Heritage Group (NZUHG)
*Curator of the Dargaville Maritime Museum<ref>{{cite web |title=David Bellamy defends controversial book |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/waikato-news/news/david-bellamy-defends-controversial-book/KNLHGWPNQNLRQO6JWZCK6KA47Q/ |website=Waikato Herald |access-date=9 December 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Vincent |first1=Colin |title=David Bellamy backs controversial history of NZ |url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/david-bellamy-backs-controversial-history-of-nz/EQB4PAEQ37CYRZ3QE33QH46OZU/ |website=New Zealand Herald |access-date=9 December 2024}}</ref>
*Northland board of the Historic Places Trust
*Curator of the Dargaville Maritime Museum


==Awards== ==Awards==
2017 The Kelly Tarlton Award for Services to Underwater Heritage<ref>{{cite web |title=Kelly Tarlton Award |url=https://www.underwaterheritage.co.nz/kelly-tarlton-award |website=New Zealand Underwater Heritage Group |access-date=22 November 2024}}</ref>

2017 - The Kelly Tarlton Award for Services to Underwater Heritage<ref>{{cite web |title=Kelly Tarlton Award |url=https://www.underwaterheritage.co.nz/kelly-tarlton-award |website=New Zealand Underwater Heritage Group |access-date=22 November 2024}}</ref>


== References == == References ==

{{Reflist}} {{Reflist}}


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Revision as of 15:14, 3 January 2025

New Zealand dairy farmer and shipwreck hunter

Noel Hilliam
BornNoel Edward Hilliam
Died(2017-09-10)10 September 2017
Dargaville
OccupationHistorian

Noel Edward Hilliam (died 10 September 2017) was a dairy farmer, shipwreck hunter, and often controversial amateur historian from Dargaville, in Northland, New Zealand.

Three-masted barque Anglo-Norman aground on Kaipara Bar, New Zealand, one of the many shipwrecks Hilliam researched

Hilliam researched and documented a large number of shipwrecks in the Northland Region, including the numerous wrecks at the Kaipara Harbour. Hilliam claimed to have material he had salvaged from wrecks including, a "rubber pintle" alleged to date from 1590, planks of wood from 1560 and more. There are 110 recorded shipwrecks on the Kaipara and Ripiro Beach coast, but Hilliam claimed to know of 153 (17 of which are unidentified).

Notable dates and claims

Ancient Spanish and Dutch ships

In 1982, Hilliam reported seeing the wreck of a Spanish ship while flying over Baylys Beach, but the "swirling sands quickly covered the find over again".

In the same year Hilliam identified a wooden ship exposed in the shallow waters of Midge Bay, north of the Kaipara Harbour entrance. After researching this, Hilliam suggests that the wreck could be from between the voyages of Tasman & Cook – pointing towards further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific. This wreck is suggested to be New Zealand's oldest shipwreck.

Pre-Māori village

A image showing how thick and dense the foliage is inside the Waipoua Forest

In 1998, elders of Te Uri o Hau restricted access to sacred Māori sites in Kaipara after Hilliam visited without permission and claimed to have discovered a prehistoric village, allegedly occupied by a people displaced by Māori around 600 years ago. Although he did not disclose the location, it is locally suggested to be the man-made, stone structures in the Waipoua Forest. Hilliam has since argued that these structures were evidence of pre-Māori settlement. Hilliam has worked in the forest near this location and suggested that the 75 year embargo on the site and government redacted information was a conspiracy to hide evidence of pre-Māori settlers. In reality, the embargo was lifted in 1996 (67 years early).

Historic shipwreck uncovered

In 2004, after pursuing it for 30 years, Hilliam participated in excavating a shipwreck west of Dargaville. This shipwreck had previously surfaced in both 1973 and 1909. Items recovered including an anchor chain and a 1.5-meter cannon known as a carronade.

Claim of U-boat discovery

In 2008 The Underwater Heritage Group (of which Hilliam was vice-president) announced that they had discovered a German U-boat off the Kaipara Coast. Hilliam claimed the submarine had been "observed seven times" and three divers had been to it – however, no photographs exist and it has not since been seen.

Spanish caravel – San Lesmes

In 2009, it was suggested that Spanish sailors might have reached New Zealand over a century before Abel Tasman. An unnamed, "Oxford-educated" researcher examined these claims, based on Hilliam's belief that a Spanish ship visited in the 16th century and sank near Aranga on Northland's west coast. It was suggested by Winston Cowie (a contemporary of Hilliam) that this ship was the caravel San Lesmes. Hilliam claimed that 22 of the 53 crew members were from Aranga, Spain—a name also found in a Northland area where the wreck was seen (e.g. the Northland town of Aranga). He also claimed that the main street in that Spanish town was ‘Rua Tui’, which resembles a Māori name. There are at least four streets in Spain called Rúa Tui and while the name does sound like Māori , Rúa is a Spanish word meaning street. The town of Aranga does not have a street called Rúa Tui, although the nearby (about 40 mins away) towns of Lugo and A Coruña both do. It is of note that there are multiple theories on where the caravel San Lesmes ended up, or if it simply sunk somewhere in the pacific. Robert Langdon's book, The Lost Caravel suggests it sunk at the Tuamotu Archipelago with theories of Polynesians with European features and Spanish words.

Co-authored To the Ends of the Earth

In 2012, Hilliam co-authored To the Ends of the Earth, which controversially argued that the Māori demigod Maui was not Polynesian but an ancient Egyptian navigator. It also claims that New Zealand was discovered by ancient Egyptians and Greeks.

Claims of P-51 in Northern Wairoa

In 2016, Hilliam claimed to find remains of a P-51 Mustang in the Wairoa River (Northland). Although attempts were made, they were not able to successfully find and raise the plane before Hilliam's death. No photographic evidence exists of the plane in the river.

Welsh skulls

In 2017 Hilliam claimed he found human remains of Welsh origin that pre-dated Māori.

Doubt surrounding Hilliam's claims

This section possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research should be removed. (December 2024) (Learn how and when to remove this message)

Anonymous "experts"

Hilliam has frequently relied on anonymous "experts" who cannot be verified. Examples include:

  • An unnamed "Oxford-educated" researcher examined Hilliam's claims of the Spanish ship San Lesmes.
  • The "Welsh" skulls were examined by a “forensic expert” from Edinburgh University. Hilliam then said the person had since died. A spokesperson for the University of Edinburgh said none of their academics contributed to the project.
  • Hilliam said he presented a forensic pathologist ("one of the top 10 in the world") with teeth for DNA testing. However, he would "not name them or the institutions where they work".
  • Hilliam used an unnamed "expert in computer-imaged facial reconstruction" to create images purporting to show what the pre-Māori settlers looked like. These were published by a Northern Advocate journalist. The article was soon removed, and an apology issued by the newspaper.

Unverified claims

Many of his archaeological finds have not been verified or, in some cases, even seen by anyone outside of Hilliam's group of friends. Examples include:

  • The remains of the "Spanish ship" Hilliam found in 1982 vanished before he could show it to anyone. It has not been seen since.
  • German U-boat off the Kaipara Coast. It was apparently seen "seven times" and three divers had been to it. But no pictures exist, no one else has verified the find and Hilliam refused to share the location.
  • Prehistoric village. In 1998 Hilliam claimed to have discovered a prehistoric village once occupied by a pre-Māori civilisation. However, he did not disclose the location.
  • P51 Mustang in the Wairoa River. No evidence exists to show the plane exists in the Wairoa River.

Roles

  • First president of the New Zealand Underwater Heritage Group (NZUHG)
  • Committee member of the Northland Historic Places Trust
  • Curator of the Dargaville Maritime Museum

Awards

2017 – The Kelly Tarlton Award for Services to Underwater Heritage

References

  1. ^ "Dargaville historian Noel Hilliam passes away". Northern Advocate. 11 September 2017. Retrieved 16 November 2024 – via nzherald.co.nz.
  2. ^ "From a non-Māori Maui to Spanish shipwrecks: Who is Noel Hilliam?". Newshub. 19 May 2017. Archived from the original on 13 April 2024.
  3. ^ McMartin, Anna (8 September 2024). "Ake ake ake". The End is Naenae.
  4. ^ Hamilton, Scott (22 May 2017). "The white tangata whenua, and other bullshit from the 'One New Zealand' crew". The Spinoff. Retrieved 13 November 2024.
  5. Tasker, John (2012). Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under – Volume Three. p. 136. ISBN 9781470981136.
  6. Tasker, John (2012). Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under – Volume Three. p. 137. ISBN 9781470981136.
  7. "Quakes and big tides work for wreck spotter". NZ Herald. Retrieved 22 November 2024.
  8. Tasker, John (2012). Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under – Volume Three. p. 68. ISBN 9781470981136.
  9. Palmer, Jonathan; Turney, Chris; Hogg, Alan; Hilliam, Noel; Watson, Matt; van Sebille, Erik; Cowie, Winston; Jones, Richard; Petchey, Fiona (2014). "The discovery of New Zealand's oldest shipwreck – possible evidence of further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific". Journal of Archaeological Science. 42: 435–441. Bibcode:2014JArSc..42..435P. doi:10.1016/j.jas.2013.11.024.
  10. Callaway, Ewen (2014). "Shipwreck points to 18th-century race to colonize New Zealand" (PDF). Nature. doi:10.1038/nature.2014.14464. Retrieved 22 November 2024.
  11. ""Ruins may show Incas beat Māori to New Zealand?"". Morien Institute. 22 February 2023.
  12. Taylor, Michael (1986). "Report on the Proposed Historic and Traditional (Archaeological) Reserve in Waipoua State Forest 13". New Zealand Forest Service. Retrieved 14 November 2024 – via Whangarei District Libraries.
  13. Lawlor, Ian (20 February 1990). "Waipoua Archaeological Sites and Te Roroa History" (PDF). Justice Govt NZ.
  14. Dick, Allan (2005). "The mysteries of Waipoua Forest". NZ Today. 14: 10–23. ISSN 1176-3051.
  15. Little, Paul (31 July 2016). "The truth is possibly out there". New Zealand Herald. Retrieved 14 November 2024.
  16. "Waipoua Forest, Northland – Stone Ruins". NZ Short Walks. 8 October 2020.
  17. Williams, David (6 November 2023). "NZ forest structure mystery is based on myth". AAP Factcheck.
  18. Stirling, Rose (24 August 2011). "Ancient facts unfold". Stuff.nz.
  19. "U-196 found off New Zealand ?". Uboat.net.
  20. "German U-boat found in Northland waters, group claims". RNZ. 7 November 2008.
  21. Palmer, Jonathan; Turney, Chris; Hogg, Alan; Hilliam, Noel; Watson, Matt; van Sebille, Erik; Cowie, Winston; Jones, Richard; Petchey, Fiona (2014). "The discovery of New Zealand's oldest shipwreck – possible evidence of further Dutch exploration of the South Pacific". Journal of Archaeological Science. 42: 435–441. Bibcode:2014JArSc..42..435P. doi:10.1016/j.jas.2013.11.024.
  22. "Spanish twists provoke research". Northern Advocate. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  23. Tasker, John (2012). Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under – Volume Three. p. 68. ISBN 9781470981136.
  24. "Spanish twists provoke research". Northern Advocate. 27 December 2009 – via nzherald.co.nz.
  25. Langdon, Robert (1975). The Lost Caravel. Sydney: Pacific Publications. ISBN 9780858070219.
  26. Strebe, Daniel 'Daan' (2013). "Maxwell C. Hill, To the Ends of the Earth: did the Greeks circumnavigate the world and settle New Zealand before the birth of Christ?". The Globe (72). Australian and New Zealand Map Society – via The Free Library.
  27. "David Bellamy defends controversial book". Waikato Herald. 30 March 2012 – via nzherald.co.nz.
  28. Dubov, Kalman (2021). Journeys to New Zealand Aotearoa: Review & Analysis.
  29. "Dargaville Aero Club" (PDF). Dargaville EAC.
  30. "EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE". Media Council. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  31. "Spanish twists provoke research". The Northern Advocate.
  32. "EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE". Media Council. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  33. "A Northland man is under investigation by Heritage New Zealand for tampering with historic burial sites". Stuff.nz. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  34. "EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE". Media Council. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  35. "No legal action over Noel Hilliam's Welsh Māori skulls". Northern Advocate. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  36. "No legal action over Noel Hilliam's Welsh Māori skulls". Northern Advocate. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  37. "No legal action over Noel Hilliam's Welsh Māori skulls". Northern Advocate. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  38. "EWAN MORRIS AGAINST NORTHERN ADVOCATE". Media Council. Retrieved 19 November 2024.
  39. Tasker, John (2012). Sixteenth Century Portuguese Down Under – Volume Three. p. 68. ISBN 9781470981136.
  40. "German U-boat found in Northland waters, group claims". RNZ. 7 November 2008.
  41. "U-196 found off New Zealand ?". Uboat.net.
  42. Dick, Allan (2005). "The mysteries of Waipoua Forest". NZ Today. 14: 10–23. ISSN 1176-3051.
  43. Little, Paul (31 July 2016). "The truth is possibly out there". New Zealand Herald. Retrieved 14 November 2024.
  44. ""Ruins may show Incas beat Māori to New Zealand?"". Morien Institute. 22 February 2023.
  45. Taylor, Michael (1986). "Report on the Proposed Historic and Traditional (Archaeological) Reserve in Waipoua State Forest 13". New Zealand Forest Service. Retrieved 14 November 2024 – via Whangarei District Libraries.
  46. Lawlor, Ian (20 February 1990). "Waipoua Archaeological Sites and Te Roroa History" (PDF). Justice Govt NZ.
  47. "Waipoua Forest, Northland – Stone Ruins". NZ Short Walks. 8 October 2020.
  48. "Dargaville Aero Club" (PDF). Dargaville EAC.
  49. Laird, Lindy. "Kelly Tarlton trophy goes to late Northland shipwreck pioneer Noel Hilliam". The Northern Advocate. Retrieved 9 December 2024.
  50. "Northern Farming Lifestyles". No. March 2013. Retrieved 9 December 2024.
  51. "David Bellamy defends controversial book". Waikato Herald. Retrieved 9 December 2024.
  52. Vincent, Colin. "David Bellamy backs controversial history of NZ". New Zealand Herald. Retrieved 9 December 2024.
  53. "Kelly Tarlton Award". New Zealand Underwater Heritage Group. Retrieved 22 November 2024.
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