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			== Persian vs Iranian ==
	== proposed text for theology section ==

			Isn't Zoroastrianism of Persian origin? ] (]) 08:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
	@]

			:Persia is another name for Iran. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 08:26, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
	I provided a text, based on your new added overview and have integrated some paragraphs from the theism subsection in this text too. this text should be added to "Theism" subsection:

			== Mazdaism ==
	Zoroastrianism is often regarded as one of the oldest monotheistic religions in the world. Although Ahura Mazda is the supreme god, and Zoroastrians regard him as the creator of the world and their only God, Zoroastrianism believes in lesser divinities known as Yazatas, who are several kinds of positive spiritual beings that support humanity.” (ref: Ferrero and dorothea ludekens). These yazatas ("good agents") include Anahita, Sraosha, Mithra, Rashnu, and Tishtrya. Richard Foltz has put forth evidence that Iranians of Pre-Islamic era worshipped all these figures, especially Mithra and Anahita. (foltz ref)

			We believe in ahura Mazda as god not Zoroaster so use Mazdaism to show who we are and who our god is ] (]) 18:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
	In addition to this, Zoroastrianism believes in an evil principle whose origin is separate from God and acts in opposition to Ahura Mazda and his creation. This antagonist who is called “Angra Mainyu” or “the evil spirit” in the Avesta, is the embodiment of evil and his only desire is to bring disorder and destruction to Ahura Mazda’s Perfect world. (ref hintze)

			:The common name in English is Zoroastrianism. Per ], it should stay as is. Mazdaism is mentioned in the etymology section. ]'''\|'''] 20:39, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
	The unique features of Zoroastrianism has caused Scholars and theologians to debate how best to classify Zoroastrianism theism, and according to Almut Hintze, “usually the labels attached to Zoroastrianism combine two features out of a possible three (or four). (ref hintze)

			== Wrong information ==
	During 18th century, the Orientalist Thomas Hyde, concluded that Zoroaster was a strict Monotheist sent by god to repeat the work of Abraham among the ancient Iranians and he supposed that his teachings was misinterpreted by Greeks and other people. This Judeo-Christian interpretation of Zoroastrianism established itself firmly in the academic world nearly for 75 years. (ref boyce)

			“Zoroastrianism is sometimes credited with being the first monotheistic religion in history, antedating the Israelites”
	During 1860s, Martin Haug, German Philologist suggested that In the Gathas, Zoroaster rejects every divine being other than Ahura Mazda, and the Dualism is merely philosophical and the Amesha Spentas were nothing but Abstract Nouns and Ideas. (ref mary boyce)

			Isrraelites are much older and also this ignores back to Abraham and before. Noah. Abel etc ] (]) 01:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
	The arrival of the German orientalist and philologist Martin Haug led to a rallied defense of the faith through Haug's reinterpretation of the Avesta through Christianized and European orientalist lens. Haug postulated that Zoroastrianism was solely monotheistic with all other divinities reduced to the status of angels while Ahura Mazda became both omnipotent and the source of evil as well as good. Haug's thinking was subsequently disseminated as a Parsi interpretation, thus corroborating Haug's theory, and the idea became so popular that it is now almost universally accepted as doctrine (though being reevaluated in modern Zoroastrianism and academia). (ref)
			:Those are ] characters. The ] has no claim to ]. ] is just as much of a ] character as ]. ] (]) 06:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

			== Vegetarianism ==
	In 1912, George Foot Moore, American Historian of Religion, calls Zoroastrianism, the only Monotheistic religion of Indo-European Origin. Further, He believes that in the Gathas, Ahura Mazda has no partner or rival, the Yazatas or Zoroastrian Divinities are subordinate to Ahura Mazda and believes this is certainly a Monotheistic Doctrine. (ref foot moore)

			Ancient Traditional (mainstream)Zoroastrianism, as practised during ancient times in Iran before the advent of Islam, never promoted nor mandated vegetarianism. In fact, meat consumption was wide spread, and hunting culturally celebrated, viewed as a symbol of royalty and strength.
	Later, Boyd and Crosby suggest: “that Zoroastrianism combines cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique to itself among the major religions of the world. This combination results in a religious outlook which cannot be categorized as either straightforward dualism or straightforward monotheism. Zoroastrianism proclaims a movement through time from dualism toward monotheism, i.e., a dualism which is being made false by the dynamics of time, and a monotheism which is being made true by those same dynamics of time. The meaning of the eschaton in Zoroastrianism is thus the triumph of monotheism, the good God Ahura Mazdä having at last won his way through to complete and final ascendancy.” (ref boyd)

			“Although there have been various theological statements supporting vegetarianism in Zoroastrianism's history and those who believe that Zoroaster was vegetarian”
	According to the oldest texts of the Zoroastrian tradition, the Gathas, Schwartz defines Zoroastrianism as a Monotheistic Dualism, while Gnoli calls it a dualistic Monotheism; and Panaino, because of Ahura Mazda’s sovereign role in the religious system, considers Mazdaism to be Monotheistic. But Kellens accepts cosmic dualism for the opposition between Asha and Druj, but not for that between the two spirits. (ref Hintze)

			this is purely opinionated. That Zoroastrian theology CAN be interpreted to support vegetarianism is evident, but there is no explicit encouragement nor endorsement of it. To the opposite, ritual consumption of meat was the norm historically during the golden age, and there even exist purity laws regarding what can and cannot be consumed.
	Prods Oktor Skjærvø states Zoroastrianism is henotheistic, and "a dualistic and polytheistic religion, but with one supreme god, who is the father of the ordered cosmos". Other scholars state that this is unclear, because historic texts present a conflicting picture, ranging from Zoroastrianism's belief in "one god, two gods, or a best god henotheism.” (ref sk)

			vegetarianism seemed to only have become somewhat widespread upon its arrival in India due to obvious Hindu influence.
	Dr Almut Hintze believes that Zoroastrianism has its "own form of monotheism" which combines elements of dualism and polytheism, and calls it Monotheism, the Zoroastrian way. (ref hintze) It has otherwise been opined that Zoroastrianism is totally monotheistic with only dualistic elements. (ref)

			as to Zoroaster’s vegetarianism, it is simply speculative, there exists no definite evidence of it, which, whilst acknowledged by asserting it as a belief, may deserve clarification.
	Shernaz Cama suggests that the definition of dualism lends credence to the monotheism of the Zoroastrian faith. A basic definition of dualism is “a doctrine that the universe is under the dominion of two opposing principles one of which is good and the other evil.” But Cama contends Zoroastrians believe in the supremacy of Ahura Mazda, for Zoroastrians, Ahura Mazda is the only God.

	According to Ferrero, Zoroastrianism’s dualism is an attempt to describe the nature of evil as the product of a separate entity from Ahura Mazda: an entity which will be destroyed at the end of the world, resolving the dualism. In addition to this, He interprets Yazatas as being roughly analogous to angels in Judaism or to the saints within Christianity, pointing out that these holy beings are subordinate to godhead. (insert ref) ] (]) 16:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

			The passage should be elaborated on, to underline clearly that this is a specific interpretation and a historic minority view. ] (]) 16:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
	:I think this is a misapplication of Ferrero - the source is useful for describing the socio/political factors that led to transitions and transformations within Zoroastrianism; it is not an ideal source for describing an interpretation of Yazatas except in as far as he uses that description as a basis for exploration of the political and economic social factors at play. In other words use Ferrero in the context of what he was writing about rather than cherry-picking a description. ] (]) 17:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	::I think we should swap "good agents" for "divinities worthy of worship and sacrifice" as that is one of the most accepted definitions. We should also mention something about there being three Ahuras. We should also shy away from using an economist as a source, honestly. ] (]) 18:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Also, Jenny has sent me . ] (]) 18:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::I mentioned this scholar in my sources too. however a great number of scholars have different opinions. ] (]) 21:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	::Ferrero is an expert on religious matters. he has several articles on religious subjects. ] (]) 20:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	::: {{u\| Researcher1988}} . Please present evidence if he has more expertise elsewhere. 16:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 16:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::Look at Ferrero's bibliography - he is principally interested in the political economics of religions mostly originating in a geographic range between Greece and India. The issue is not whether Ferrero is used but rather what he should be used for. The paper in question is being mis-applied. I know. I read it. ] (]) 16:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::My objection on that front is mostly because Researcher1988 demands that only truly focused scholars of Zor be included on the page, and I was trying to hold them to that. ] (]) 19:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I also agree, Ferarro is not an expert on Zoroastrianism and we should certainly defer to the opinions of academics who study and teach Zoroastrianism, not an economist. I also agree that the paper does not support what Researcher1988 is attempting to use it to support. ] (]) 19:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

			== Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2025 ==
	== Proposal to revert to 18 September 2023 version ==

			{{Edit semi-protected\|Zoroastrianism\|answered=yes}}
	I propose that we revert to of the article, from before {{u\|Researcher1988}} began to edit it. It is a much more balanced presentation, and a better starting point for improving the article. ] (]) 21:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
			change the typo in diffuculties to difficulties ] (]) 11:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

	*'''Support''' as ~~proposer~~. ] (]) 21:57, 18 ~~April~~ ~~2024~~ (UTC)		:{{re\|Hanke1977}} Good call. Thanks. Done. I've also fixed a couple of other typos in that section. ] (]) 11:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thank you! ] (]) 12:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

			:{{already done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> by ]
	* '''Oppose''' (Edited) As Simonm223 says, the article is improving by leaps and bounds. There are sections that I feel we do need to drastically redo, such as the theology section - which should probably be organised into chuncks. Each with a rough timeline. I think we could also do more to document the lack of academic consensus on monotheism/polytheism etc. I would also suggest the controversial claims of influence toward other religions be made part of the existing section, and balanced against the newly uncovered evidence that it was most likely the other way around. ] (]) 08:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
			] (]) 16:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Yeah, you are probably right. We should move forward, but we might want to compare here to there in the process. ] (]) 10:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::If we think about it, it might be a good opportunity to paint a more vivid picture as well. Perhaps by including broad-strokes summaries of some of the stories & characters etc. What do you think? ] (]) ] (]) 11:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' I would prefer not to just roll everything back. A lot of productive changes have been made recently. ] (]) 11:54, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Yes, actually. I think I agree. I think the new parts that were added are a lot more accurate than what was there before, and that we can actually fix this article. 13:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 13:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

	== Rough Timeline of Zoroastrian's Mutation ==

	A lot of things have been bugging me about this religion for a while, and I think I've finally finished collating a timeline of events that point towards the true nature of Zoroastrianism and why we're having so much trouble categorising it. Please tell me what you think, but here's what I think happened. A lot of this is directly from this Wiki page:
	* Zoroastrianism is massive a polytheistic religion based in almost pure oral tradition until the ~6th-13th centaury.
	* Islam arises and crushes Zoroastrianism. They have to pretend to be monotheistic to survive, and start equating Yazata with angels etc. Islam has a massive effect on the society.
	* Missionaries like The in the 18th-19th centaury cause a massive collapse in Zoroastrian confidence in their faith. They literally break the back of the religion, and cause them to start adopting Christian ideas into it (this kind of adoption of a dominant invading faith is a common factor in polytheism).
	* Other missionaries then document that the Zoroastrians are talking about monotheism.
	* Academics like ] speculate that Zoroastrianism is actually the original root of all the Abrahamic religions. To quote the wiki page: "Haug postulated that Zoroastrianism was solely monotheistic with all other divinities reduced to the status of angels while Ahura Mazda became both omnipotent and the source of evil as well as good. Haug's thinking was subsequently disseminated as a Parsi interpretation, thus corroborating Haug's theory, and the idea became so popular that it is now almost universally accepted as doctrine (though being reevaluated in modern Zoroastrianism and academia)."
	* Zoroastrians and Westerners then work together to turn the Avesta into a messy hybrid. Importing Christian words directly into the text, and concealing the true nature of Zoroastrianism beneath a thin skin of Christianity.
	* Modern Zoroastrians functionally grow up practicing a broken hybrid of both religions.
	] (]) 16:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

	:Be careful of ] here - we want to communicate the present academic perspective on this rather than conduct our own historical survey. Do you have a source that lays out this timeline? ] (]) 17:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	::That is fair enough @]. I wasn't suggesting we add any of that to the page, though essentially all of it is already there in a fragmentary form. My source here is actually, for the most part, the article itself as it stands. The theology section in the main part where I finally put the last pieces together. However; the sources we acquired recently that suggest the religion was mutated by Islam and the missionaries in the 19th centaury were the main part of this. ] (]) 18:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

	== Any idea how many Ahuras there are? ==

	I suspect there's two, but the stuff I've found so far allege three. Are there any others?

	* ] - specific in the text
	* ] - specific in the text
	* ] - at least according to his wiki page, but I can't find him referred to as such in the text.
	] (]) 10:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

	:I always thought that the ] were pre-Zorastrian and that ] was more or less a Roman attributation to Persian faiths, but not necessarily Zorastrian. However, I would like to use the oppotunity to throw in additional background information about later veneration of Devas among Iranians, since it might shed light on the nature of veneration of various spirits in Iranian thought: "Demonology & worship of Dives in Iranian local legend" by Reza Yousefvand. ] (]) 13:58, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
	:: {{u\|VenusFeuerFalle}} They are indeed pre Zoroastrian, and they are in Indian and Iranian texts. They are also at least two Ahuras mentioned in the text itself, however. I think we need an entire section on all these characters so we can be sure we've gotten them straight. Thank you for the recommendation. ] (]) 18:25, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Wait, am I reading this right? I'm not sure about this being true. Though it may be they placate the dark god as the Egyptians did. "So we see dualism in Zoroaster religious that they worship both of the Ahura Mazda and devil. Demon worship never disappeared in Iran, in Zoroastrianism worshipers called Div. (demon) as Daevayasna. According to Vandidad, worshipers met each other in Cemeteries and cryptand where to spend their disgusting ritual meal that was dead bodies (Vandidad, Fargard, 53-58 articles and Fargard 16, 17)." ] (]) 19:16, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::Since it is the only source covering this, I would be cautious. Though just because it is rarely covered, does not mean it is wrong. I would not put it in the article though, since the leack of coverage indicates a lack of notability in academic circles. But I thought it might be helpful to keep in mind. ] (]) 18:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::@] Yeah, I'm not sure about putting it in there either. I do keep hearing little hints that the Zoroastrians practice magic, but the only 'spells' I hear about are actually just rituals related to their good gods. ] (]) 06:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Maybe it is some folkloric practise. Post-Islamic Devas/Divs (see also the ]-article) became demonic entities all across Central Asia in general. Some of them may have a positive depiction as they were assimilated with other animistic spirits. However, the post-Islamic Divs are more of their very own unique concept and have not much today with the previous depiction of Divs as we find it in earlier (antuquity) sources. ] (]) 20:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Possibly. It's likely very hard to say now because they have been so impacted by other cultures. ] (]) 10:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

	== Persian vs Iranian ==

	Isn't Zoroastrianism of Persian origin? ] (]) 08:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

	:Persia is another name for Iran. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 08:26, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

	== Mazdaism ==

	We believe in ahura Mazda as god not Zoroaster so use Mazdaism to show who we are and who our god is ] (]) 18:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

	:The common name in English is Zoroastrianism. Per ], it should stay as is. Mazdaism is mentioned in the etymology section. ]'''\|'''] 20:39, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

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Zoroastrianism

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Result: Delisted, 24 citation needed tags (t · c) buidhe 00:42, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

The prose for this article is not always clear and concise, and large chunks of this article are left uncited. Therefore, I believe delisting this article should be considered. 777burger 03:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Persian vs Iranian

Isn't Zoroastrianism of Persian origin? Jei tii (talk) 08:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Persia is another name for Iran. Remsense ‥ 诉 08:26, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Mazdaism

We believe in ahura Mazda as god not Zoroaster so use Mazdaism to show who we are and who our god is 2404:3100:1408:ADAE:F72A:8959:AE4F:CEBD (talk) 18:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

The common name in English is Zoroastrianism. Per WP:COMMONNAME, it should stay as is. Mazdaism is mentioned in the etymology section. Snowman304|talk 20:39, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Wrong information

“Zoroastrianism is sometimes credited with being the first monotheistic religion in history, antedating the Israelites”

Isrraelites are much older and also this ignores back to Abraham and before. Noah. Abel etc 72.92.45.87 (talk) 01:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Those are mythological characters. The Book of Genesis has no claim to historicity. Moses is just as much of a fairy tale character as Abraham. Dimadick (talk) 06:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Vegetarianism

Ancient Traditional (mainstream)Zoroastrianism, as practised during ancient times in Iran before the advent of Islam, never promoted nor mandated vegetarianism. In fact, meat consumption was wide spread, and hunting culturally celebrated, viewed as a symbol of royalty and strength.

“Although there have been various theological statements supporting vegetarianism in Zoroastrianism's history and those who believe that Zoroaster was vegetarian”

this is purely opinionated. That Zoroastrian theology CAN be interpreted to support vegetarianism is evident, but there is no explicit encouragement nor endorsement of it. To the opposite, ritual consumption of meat was the norm historically during the golden age, and there even exist purity laws regarding what can and cannot be consumed.

vegetarianism seemed to only have become somewhat widespread upon its arrival in India due to obvious Hindu influence.

as to Zoroaster’s vegetarianism, it is simply speculative, there exists no definite evidence of it, which, whilst acknowledged by asserting it as a belief, may deserve clarification.

The passage should be elaborated on, to underline clearly that this is a specific interpretation and a historic minority view. 77.47.38.183 (talk) 16:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2025

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change the typo in diffuculties to difficulties Hanke1977 (talk) 11:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@Hanke1977: Good call. Thanks. Done. I've also fixed a couple of other typos in that section. Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you! Hanke1977 (talk) 12:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Already done by Feline Hymnic

The AP  (talk) 16:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

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