Revision as of 05:52, 26 October 2024 editBrusquedandelion (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,551 edits →Mentions of WWII atrocities in lead: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 00:00, 4 January 2025 edit undoMaxeto0910 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users94,445 editsNo edit summaryTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit |
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==Did you know nomination== |
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{{Template:Did you know nominations/Japan}} |
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{{Template:Did you know nominations/Japan}} |
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== I want to right thing Japan's nominal GDP per capita rank == |
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Japan's rank is mistake. ] (]) 22:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Car exports == |
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@]: |
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Please explain why you think that one sentence about Japan's leading position as one of the world's largest car exporters (ranking 2nd worldwide by number of cars exported after having been the top dog for a very long time) is "overdetail". Germany, which is a featured article as well, has a sentence about its car exports too, although it ranks below Japan in that regard. So please explain why that should be overly detailed, since it is anything but obvious. ] (]) 15:26, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:The article already includes a statement about the country's current automobile production; it does not need to include additional historical data on the topic. ] (]) 17:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::1) I'm talking about car exports, not production, which even is the discipline in which Japan performs better (it is 3rd by car production, and 2nd by exports), making it even more notable. |
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::2) This isn't historical data. The added text also stated that Japan is now the world's second-largest car exporter by number, having been overtaken by China in early 2023. |
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::3) The featured Germany article also has information about both car production and exports, although Germany is behind Japan in both metrics. ] (]) 17:59, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I was looking at updating to current numbers for exports, but it appears that the claim is actually disputed - see . ] (]) 18:13, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Then why not state that and explain why it's disputed whether Japan is 1st or 2nd in car exports by number? ] (]) 18:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Because this is not the appropriate article to get into a discussion about the various means of calculating. We could simply say it's top-five for both? ] (]) 18:15, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I'd say that depends on how many sentences it would take to explain it. If it becomes too long, we could also add an explanatory note. If it becomes too long even for that, saying that it's in the top 5 (or rather top 3), like you suggested, would be an option as well. ] (]) 18:18, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I've amended the article to say top-three for both metrics. ] (]) 18:22, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::Good. But we should still either clarify that this rank is based on the number of cars exported (as this isn't clear out of the context) or state that Japan ranks in the top 3 in car exports by both number and value, for example: |
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::::::::"Japan is in the top three globally for automobile production and export, the latter both by number and value " |
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::::::::A reference for the value of car exports would be by ]. ] (]) 19:15, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Why? It's top three in exports no matter how you count that. ] (]) 19:52, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Yes, but that's not clear from the reader's perspective, who at most only knows that Japan ranks 3rd by number, and even that only when the reader reads the source because this isn't stated in the article. How should the reader know that it's not only 3rd by number but also by value when we don't write it and give a source for both? When we don't explicitly write that Japan ranks 3rd by car exports by both number and value, it may be fair to assume that it ranks 3rd by both metrics, but then we should as well give sources for both. ] (]) 20:34, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::No objection to adding sources. ] (]) 20:41, 27 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== First of all, point out what is wrong == |
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I am Japanese. This is my first time seeing the English version of the article, and there are quite a few mistakes. First, the Yayoi period dates back to the 3rd century BC, and the Japanese language existed even before that. Second, Emperor Jinmu was not a grandchild of Amaterasu Omikami, but a further grandchild of Amaterasu Omikami. I think it would be a good idea to include information on the Japanese people and their ecology that appeared in ancient history books of neighboring countries. ] (]) 17:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:postscript |
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:Amaterasu's grandson is Ninigi. Emperor Jinmu is Ninigi's grandson ] (]) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::It appears that dating of the Yayoi period is contested among historians; I've changed the labeling of Jimmu. ] (]) 18:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::No, the Yayoi period is undisputedly from the 3rd century BC to the 3rd century AD. This is a common understanding among scientists from all walks of life, but who claims that it began in the 7th century BC? ] (]) 20:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::{{cite journal | last=Shoda | first=Shin'ya | title=Radiocarbon and Archaeology in Japan and Korea: What has Changed Because of the Yayoi Dating Controversy? | journal=Radiocarbon | publisher=Cambridge University Press (CUP) | volume=52 | issue=2 | year=2010 | issn=0033-8222 | doi=10.1017/s0033822200045471 | pages=421–427}} <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 21:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 10 September 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Japan|answered=yes}} |
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I would like to edit a few words with spelling mistakes ] (]) 13:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{not done}}. It's unclear what you mean. <span style="font-family:cursive;color:DarkBlue;cursor:help"><span>]</span><sup>(])</sup></span> 13:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2024 == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2024 == |
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::::If the involvement of the entire company can be sourced, that could be something to discuss in the company's article - but still not here. ] (]) 02:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::If the involvement of the entire company can be sourced, that could be something to discuss in the company's article - but still not here. ] (]) 02:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::It was an open secret that the president of Johnny's was committing sexual crimes against men. This has been revealed for a long time through disclosure books and court cases by multiple singers. Sexual crimes were also committed in the restrooms of the national broadcasting station and Asahi TV. When Mr. Kitagawa died, many politicians and the media paid tribute to him and held a grand funeral. This was despite the fact that the crime had already been discovered in court in the 1960s. ] (]) 12:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::The topic here is human rights.And while LGBT is described as a problem, descriptions of discrimination against women are not allowed. Japan has been famous for its gender discrimination since ancient times. In fact, many women were discriminated against in medical school entrance exams. It is also not acceptable for a woman to have an abortion without her partner's consent. Please tell me why you can't even describe the gender gap index even though you can write about LGBT. ] (]) 22:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::The topic here is human rights.And while LGBT is described as a problem, descriptions of discrimination against women are not allowed. Japan has been famous for its gender discrimination since ancient times. In fact, many women were discriminated against in medical school entrance exams. It is also not acceptable for a woman to have an abortion without her partner's consent. Please tell me why you can't even describe the gender gap index even though you can write about LGBT. ] (]) 22:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Do you have a source for the claim that "Japan has been famous for its gender discrimination since ancient times"? ] (]) 00:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Do you have a source for the claim that "Japan has been famous for its gender discrimination since ancient times"? ] (]) 00:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::If you've ever lived in Japan, you'll understand. More than 70 years have passed since the birth of women as national representatives, but the proportion of women in Japan's House of Representatives has increased from 8.4% in 1946 to 9.7% in November 2021. The proportion of cabinet positions held by women is 10.0% (2 out of 20), ranking 151st in the world. The Minister of Justice once said, ``Women are child-bearing machines.'' By the way CHIKAN, a sex crime committed on a train, involves not only touching but also putting one's hand inside someone's clothes, but even if a complaint was filed with the police, it was not treated as a crime for many years. Moreover, many men say that the problem is not so much the crime of CHIKAN but the false accusation. The BBC reports that CHIKAN crimes are being circulated as cell videos.And Housewives are forced to work only up to an annual income of 1,030,000 yen because they are taxed and don't want to pay their own pension premiums. As a result, women who do not get married also have trouble finding employment.This is Japan.https://hrn-or-jp.translate.goog/eng/news/2024/09/16/cedaw-japan-review-report/?_x_tr_sl=en&_x_tr_tl=ja&_x_tr_hl=ja&_x_tr_pto=sc ] (]) 13:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::The part about Kitigawa was only a portion of what was removed. The text stating {{tq|Japan's 2024 gender equality ranked 118th among 146 countries}} and the fact that {{tq|A woman cannot have an abortion without her partner's consent}} is ''exactly'' the sort of information you would expect from a {{tq|high-level summary article}}, and yet some folks are pushing back on that too. ] (]) 05:39, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::The part about Kitigawa was only a portion of what was removed. The text stating {{tq|Japan's 2024 gender equality ranked 118th among 146 countries}} and the fact that {{tq|A woman cannot have an abortion without her partner's consent}} is ''exactly'' the sort of information you would expect from a {{tq|high-level summary article}}, and yet some folks are pushing back on that too. ] (]) 05:39, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::To be clear: my position is simply that the material required some level of preliminary editing and attention before it was added to the article. I hope that comes off in good faith. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 05:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::To be clear: my position is simply that the material required some level of preliminary editing and attention before it was added to the article. I hope that comes off in good faith. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 05:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Did you actually read {{noping|流山隆一}}'s edits that did exactly that before reverting them again? The most recent version they tried to include in the article has none of the prose issues earlier versions did. ] (]) 05:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Did you actually read {{noping|流山隆一}}'s edits that did exactly that before reverting them again? The most recent version they tried to include in the article has none of the prose issues earlier versions did. ] (]) 05:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I mean, their most recent addition had {{xt|Johnny Kitagawa, a prominent J-pop agent, committed child sexual abuse. More than 300 people are demanding compensation from their agency.}} How on earth would this be an acceptable addition to this article? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 05:49, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I mean, their most recent addition had {{xt|Johnny Kitagawa, a prominent J-pop agent, committed child sexual abuse. More than 300 people are demanding compensation from their agency.}} How on earth would this be an acceptable addition to this article? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 05:49, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::It would have been fine to delete that sentence instead of reverting the entire edit. That sentence was also not in their original edit, and is problematic on other grounds that have been raised above. Regardless, would you support a version of their edit without the mention of Kitigawa? ] (]) 05:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Yes, I likewise think that the material on gender equality as most recently articulated would be fine to re-add by itself: apologies for not being immediately forthcoming about that. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 05:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::It should be explained that this ranking comes from the ], but that's an easy fix. The article already cites other WEF rankings, so I support re-adding this paragraph. More broadly, ] seems conspicuously undersized in proportion to its significance to the topic, and in proportion to ]. This is an overview article, so we do expect some redundancy with sub-topic articles. ] (]) 06:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Have redone the section to summarize the main article with new sources.....best keep random stats to a minimum in the article and simply state the facts to sources that explain over general index stats.<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 08:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Thank you for your discussion. Last time, I was dissatisfied because the human rights content was limited to LGBT issues, but I now understand that other human rights issues were also covered. ] (]) 13:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Mentions of WWII atrocities in lead == |
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== Mentions of WWII atrocities in lead == |
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I {{diff2|1253474675|recently}} introduced a line mentioning the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Japanese Empire to the lead. This is a significant event in Japanese history and failing to mention it here would be like failing to mention the Holocaust in the lead for ]. @] apparently wishes to challenge these changes, but provided no policy-based explanation for their challenge. Moxy, do you care to say more? ] (]) 05:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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I {{diff2|1253474675|recently}} introduced a line mentioning the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Japanese Empire to the lead. This is a significant event in Japanese history and failing to mention it here would be like failing to mention the Holocaust in the lead for ]. @] apparently wishes to challenge these changes, but provided no policy-based explanation for their challenge. Moxy, do you care to say more? ] (]) 05:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Simply ] .....as its not something that is covered in quick summarizes of the country like Germany and the ]. Every major power has crimes attached to them but only a few are defining in nature. <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 06:06, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::So, I checked Britannica,<ref>{{mref|{{Britannica|231186|Germany}}|{{Britannica|300531|Japan}}}}</ref> and it's a bit complicated since the lead for Germany's is significantly longer than Japan's or either of ours'. However, it seems to roughly equivocate to the present proportion. Are there any other tertiary sources we can be looking at to evaluate lead dueness here?<span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 06:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::But ''why'' is it undue? Contrary to your claim, the Misplaced Pages article for ] ''does'' mention the Holocaust in its lead. ] (]) 23:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I was under the interpretation that they were making roughly the some observation as me above: i.e. it is mentioned in tertiary summaries elsewhere for Germany more often than for Japan. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 00:11, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::] states that {{tq|Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources}} and not anything specifically about tertiary sources. ] says that {{tq|Base articles largely on reliable secondary sources}}. Could you cite the specific policy that states or suggests we should weight our coverage based on how Brittanica, or another tertiary sources, covers the topic? This runs into all sorts of issues in application, including one that you have already encountered—the Britannica Germany lead being significantly longer than the Japan lead. ] (]) 00:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:I suspect having it in the lead of the ] article (it isn't) might be the bigger priority. As for defining, I note that what happened then is still very much present in many people's minds in nearby countries (see ]) so it affects current regional politics. ] (]) 07:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::This is a good point, I might focus there. The body of that article also has some major holes. ] (]) 00:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:It's already in the lead of the ] article, where they are more closely associated with. Modern Japan is usually not often associated with these acts anymore, if you like that or not. Even in the lead of the Germany article, a country that is still widely known today for its war atrocities and is often regarded as having started both World Wars, the Holocaust is only mentioned in one word. ] (]) 23:48, 3 January 2025 (UTC) |
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{{talk ref}} |
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== Video game sector == |
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I feel like the content about Japan's video game sector in the science and technology section would fit better in the media section since it is more focused on Japan's video game market instead of its video game industry. ] (]) 07:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:I now because placing it in the science and technology section was probably just a mistake by someone. However, I still think the content about the video game sector rather belongs in the media section. ] (]) 07:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC) |
Whenever I make edits related to issues of discrimination against women, they are deleted. The fact that abortion can only be performed with the consent of the man and the fact that the gender gap index is poor are always deleted. This is true, and all sources have been disclosed. The gender gap was also included in the Japanese version.I don't understand why they were removed even though these are true.流山隆一 (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
I feel like the content about Japan's video game sector in the science and technology section would fit better in the media section since it is more focused on Japan's video game market instead of its video game industry. Maxeto0910 (talk) 07:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)