| Revision as of 02:42, 6 December 2009 editMiszaBot I (talk | contribs)234,552 editsm Archiving 2 thread(s) (older than 30d) to Talk:Death of Jeremiah Duggan/Archive 3.← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 18:39, 4 January 2025 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,640,651 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 5 WikiProject templates. (Fix Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell with unknown parameters)Tag: Talk banner shell conversion |
| (48 intermediate revisions by 19 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
|
{{Article history| action1 = AFD |
|
|
| action1date = 20 March 2006 |
|
|
| action1link = Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jeremiah Duggan |
|
|
| action1result = speedy keep |
|
|
| action1oldid = 44687760 |
|
|
|
|
|
| action2 = AFD |
|
|
| action2date = 6 October 2009 |
|
|
| action2link = Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jeremiah Duggan (2nd nomination) |
|
|
| action2result = keep |
|
|
| action2oldid = 319852839 |
|
|
|
|
|
| action3 = PR |
|
|
| action3date = 10:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
| action3link = Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Death of Jeremiah Duggan/archive1 |
|
|
| action3result = reviewed |
|
|
| action3oldid = 349198340 |
|
|
|
|
|
| currentstatus = |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|listas=Duggan, Jeremiah|blp=no|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Biography}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject United Kingdom}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Germany|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Law|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Death|importance=low}} |
|
|
}} |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|maxarchivesize = 250K |
|
|maxarchivesize = 250K |
| Line 6: |
Line 34: |
|
|archive = Talk:Death of Jeremiah Duggan/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|archive = Talk:Death of Jeremiah Duggan/Archive %(counter)d |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{talkheader}} |
|
|
{{oldafdfull|page=Jeremiah Duggan|date=20 March 2006|result='''keep'''}} |
|
|
{{oldafdfull|page=Jeremiah Duggan (2nd nomination)|date=6 October 2009|result='''keep'''}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{WikiProjectBanners|blp=no|1= |
|
|
{{WPBiography|living=no|class=B|priority=|listas=Duggan, Jeremiah}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Law|class=B|importance=Low}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{Notable Citation|Baroness Sarah Ludford, Member of the European Parliament: "MEP urges investigation of Jeremiah Duggan's death"}} |
|
{{Notable Citation|Baroness Sarah Ludford, Member of the European Parliament: "MEP urges investigation of Jeremiah Duggan's death"}} |
|
{{LaRouche Talk}} |
|
{{LaRouche Talk}} |
|
|
|
|
__TOC__ |
|
__TOC__ |
|
|
==Main sources== |
|
|
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article tools|1=Death of Jeremiah Duggan}} |
|
|
In the order they appeared: |
|
|
{{refbegin}} |
|
|
*Kirby, Terry (2003). , ''The Independent'', 28 August 2003. |
|
|
*Midgley, Carol (2003). , ''The Times'', 7 November 2003. |
|
|
*Samuels, Tim (2004). , BBC ''Newsnight'', 12 February 2004. |
|
|
*Smith, David James (2004). , ''The Sunday Times'', 18 July 2004. |
|
|
*Kirby, Terry (2004). , ''The Independent'', 21 July 2004. |
|
|
*Witt, April (2004). , ''The Washington Post'', 24 October 2004. |
|
|
*Townsend, Mark (2004). , ''The Observer'', 31 October 2004. |
|
|
*Townsend, Mark (2006). , ''The Guardian'', 17 September 2006. |
|
|
*Townsend, Mark and Doward, Jamie (2007). , ''The Observer'', 25 March 2007. |
|
|
*Nugent, Helen (2007). , ''The Times'', 28 March 2007. |
|
|
*Nordhausen, Frank (2007). , ''Berliner Zeitung'', 4 April 2007. |
|
|
*Degen, Wolfgang (2007). , ''Wiesbadener Kurier'', 19 April 2007. |
|
|
*Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitutional Court of Germany) (2010). , 4 February 2010; . |
|
|
*Taylor, Jerome (2010). ''The Independent'', 27 February 2010. |
|
|
*BBC News (2010). , 20 May 2010. |
|
|
*Taylor, Jerome (2010). , ''The Independent'', 21 May 2010 |
|
|
*Wardrop, Murray (2010). , ''The Daily Telegraph'', 21 May 2010. |
|
|
{{refend}} |
|
|
] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> |
|
|
|
|
|
== Citations needed == |
|
== External links modified == |
|
|
|
|
I believe we need sources for the following content: |
|
|
|
|
|
{{quotation|The British inquest heard from a psychiatrist that Duggan had no history of mental illness. His mother told the court she believed he had been the victim of a recruiting technique used within the LaRouche movement known as "ego stripping," in which recruits are made to doubt all their basic beliefs. A psychiatrist testified that a severe stress reaction can be caused by a rapid change in a person's belief system.}} |
|
|
|
|
|
I can't find it in the sources indicated. The sources probably got displaced somewhere along the line. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 22:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Lorscheid mentions that the LaRouche group uses psychological terror measures, and gives examples. He raises the possibility that Duggan was psychologically destabilised. However, he does not mention ego stripping. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 08:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the work on the sources. I accept that the Witt article, which has the Duggan case as its main focus, arguably justifies a description of the White deprogramming here. However, I can't find anything covering the sentence "His mother told the court she believed he had been the victim of a recruiting technique used within the LaRouche movement known as "ego stripping," in which recruits are made to doubt all their basic beliefs" in Witt. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 00:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
The report, which we cite at length (linked to a webarchive snapshot of justiceforjeremiah.com), appears to be a primary source. The only google match for ''"Jeremiah Duggan" Tylden'' is this WP article: . Is there any secondary source that quotes this report? --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 00:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:It's a report that was presented to the court. We're allowed to use primary sources, particularly when they've been mentioned by secondary sources. Newspapers have talked about a psychiatric report. They just didn't publish her name. We can remove the name if you want to, though I don't see it as an issue given that she wrote a report for a public inquest. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 01:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
::I've taken out the sentence as to what the mother told the court, pending a source. I have had a look for newspapers mentioning a psychiatrist's presentation to the British inquest. I cannot find one; the nearest there is is this Times report http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article455431.ece which states, without giving a source, that Jeremiah "had never been treated for depression or any psychiatric illness, and had never been heard to express suicidal thoughts". There is also Lorscheid suggesting that Duggan was "psychologically destabilised by the LaRouche cult", which is a useful statement we could use. |
|
|
::*{{find sources|"jeremiah duggan" psychiatrist OR psychiatric}} |
|
|
::Do you recall a specific source commenting on the psychiatrist's presentation to the court? I don't mind us using her name, but a third-party source commenting on the psychiatrist's presentation would help IMO. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 22:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Original Research == |
|
|
|
|
|
The following items are a violation of ]: |
|
|
* ''Erica's father was a German Jew, most of whose relatives died during ], and who himself fled to England to escape it.'' This is unsourced, and has no relationship to the subject. SlimVirgin has included it in an effort to bolster the case she is making. |
|
|
* ''In December 1973, The New York Times obtained a tape recording of an "ego-stripping session" of a British activist who LaRouche believed had been brainwashed to kill him. LaRouche was present during the session. On the tape, there are sounds of weeping and vomiting, and someone says "raise the voltage," though LaRouche said later this referred to bright lights, not an electric shock. The activist is heard complaining about a terrible pain in his arm, and LaRouche can be heard saying, "That's not real. That's in the program."'' This one has a source, but it certainly doesn't mention Jeremiah Duggan. Again, SYNTH. --] (]) 07:58, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
::I agree that we need a source linking the White session, which is well attested, to the Duggan case. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 08:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
::As for Mrs Duggan's father, I wouldn't know whether it was SlimVirgin who added this info, but it is sourceable: . I'll add a ref. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 11:44, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
::In fact, that Erica Duggan's father escaped Germany and most of his family died there was sourced already, via the ref at the end of the paragraph: in the Washington Post mentions it, as does the Times article linked above. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 11:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
*I propose that to avoid this sort of thing in future, we agree to use sentence-level, rather than paragraph-level, referencing in this article. Otherwise, whenever we insert a sentence from another source in the middle of a paragraph, the beginning of the paragraph gets separated from its correct reference. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 13:20, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::Re: ego-stripping and Chris White. ''The Washington Post'' writes about it in the context of Duggan, so it's not a violation of SYN. |
|
|
|
|
|
::Re: references. Jayen, the Witt ref was at the end of the paragraph, and there was nothing in between. I don't think it's necessary to have sentence-level sourcing when there's no interruption, unless the point is a very contentious one. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 17:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Yes, but Slim, this topic is one of the most contentious we have. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 18:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
|
::::There are lots of points within the article that aren't contentious, though. That his grandfather was a Holocaust survivor isn't contentious, nor is that Duggan attended the Tavistock and that LaRouche regards it as a brainwashing centre, but you repeated the refs for those though they were already there. It's not a big deal, but personally I'd prefer to confine sentence-level referencing to the contentious points, or to paras with multiple refs. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 19:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
<— Okay. If you'll allow me, I'll explain what I mean. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
|
{{quotation|Assume there is a para with five sentences sourced to ref X. Each sentence is signified by an Xxx: <br /> |
|
|
|
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090106112310/http://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2005/2005_10-19/2005_10-19/2005-11/pdf/40-42_11_intduggan.pdf to http://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2005/2005_10-19/2005_10-19/2005-11/pdf/40-42_11_intduggan.pdf |
|
*<nowiki>Xxx. Xxx. Xxx. Xxx. Xxx.<ref X></nowiki><br />Now I come along and insert a sentence sourced to Y:<br /> |
|
|
*<nowiki>Xxx. Xxx. Yyy.<ref Y> Xxx. Xxx. Xxx.<ref X></nowiki><br />You see? Now I need to access ref X to check if the first two sentences came from ref X as well. If I am unable to access ref X (because I haven't got JSTOR, or the book has no preview in google books, etc.), then I can't verify if I should add ref X after the first two sentences. These two sentences will now look effectively unsourced. Or worse, a new editor may think they come from ref Y. If they check Y, and can't find it there, they may delete the info as unsourced. None of that can happen in a para that looks like this:<br /> |
|
|
*<nowiki>Xxx.<ref X> Xxx.<ref X> Xxx.<ref X> Xxx.<ref X> Xxx.<ref X></nowiki><br />After adding a new sentence, it'll be<br /> |
|
|
*<nowiki>Xxx.<ref X> Xxx.<ref X> Yyy.<ref Y> Xxx.<ref X> Xxx.<ref X> Xxx.<ref X></nowiki><br />Everything is still clearly sourced, easily verifiable for readers and other editors, and I don't have to look up another source to check what to do with the first two sentences. The downside is, it looks messier.}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
|
In my experience, single-ref-per-para articles (and editors) get confused after a while. That is by the by; I'll respect your wish henceforth. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 00:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
|
:No, please, you make a good point, and if you prefer sentence-level refs, it's fine. It's just that personally I prefer not to see lots of little numbers, and I often combine multiple refs for that reason between one set of ref tags. But it's just personal preference. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 01:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 03:48, 25 December 2017 (UTC) |
|
::: <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 01:47, 7 November 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
