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::::::That sounds good - I'd be interested in revising the 1914-1922 part, although this may take a while with other commitments. The evolution of views too, if sources permit. I'll welcome your help. But let me address your concerns first. ] (]) 15:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
::::::That sounds good - I'd be interested in revising the 1914-1922 part, although this may take a while with other commitments. The evolution of views too, if sources permit. I'll welcome your help. But let me address your concerns first. ] (]) 15:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Awesome, agreed. Sources should be fine as long as we don't have to rely on ] too much—it's Mussolini after all, hardly an obscure figure. The previously posted books by De Grand and Sternhall will certainly be useful. I look forward to reading your response to my concerns :) ] (]) 15:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Awesome, agreed. Sources should be fine as long as we don't have to rely on ] too much—it's Mussolini after all, hardly an obscure figure. The previously posted books by De Grand and Sternhall will certainly be useful. I look forward to reading your response to my concerns :) ] (]) 15:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
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== Tema falso,Musolinni republicano y no facista ==
== Tema falso,Musolinni republicano y no facista ==
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As suggested by Tom B in his closing opinion on the Rfc provided above, I am starting a thread to narrow down alternatives to the current lede image for future discussion. If you feel so inclined, please share your opinion on which option you prefer.
C, B, status quo, A, most to least preferred, for reasons given in previous rounds. Reject D outright as too grainy and washed-out. However, if a much better-quality version of that image can be found, it would actually be my 2nd or 3rd choice. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 06:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
A/C, not B/D/status quo. When i closed I hadn't intended to participate, but i just got pinged. I generally prefer colour so have put C. A looks the highest quality. D is the lowest quality, and B is lower quality. I like the status quo the least, as that side profile only shows half his face, Tom B (talk) 08:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
B, C, D, A. The only picture in which Mussolini is himself is B, all the others are official pictures meant to show him as an authoritarian man. Alex2006 (talk) 14:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
C. It is a clear image that displays his signature look. Most people wouldn’t even be able to tell that D is Mussolini. Trakking (talk) 15:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
C, then A. And I have no problem with the man being represented in a propagandistic way; it is a part of the cultural image we have of him. (Next time it would be nice if you kept the same numbering/lettering, so we can just re-vote easily, rather than having to reanalyse or re-code our last answer.) — HTGS (talk) 22:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
C this one looks as a formal portrait if people not want propaganda picture they should vote for D as this one is most neutral but lacks quality. Shadow4dark (talk) 19:57, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
This poll is to determine the best of the alternative images. Once decided, the top choice will be measured against the status quo. Also “It is often preferable” is meaningless to us. We can clearly choose any image, even one that doesn’t face the text. — HTGS (talk) 04:06, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Comment: Based on my review of the tally, it appears that most people are in favor of C. Does anyone have any other ideas on what would be the best alternative image? Emiya1980 (talk) 05:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Minor corrections in Early Life
Hi!
in the "Early Life" section the text says: Mussolini was sent to a boarding school in Faenza run by Salesian monks. However Salesians are not monks, but 'religiouses'.
Suggested change: Mussolini was sent to a boarding school in Faenza run by Salesians.SiGe91 (talk) 19:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
@VampaVampa per BRD. I think the inclusion of this section (given below) is pretty problematic. My issues with it are as follows:
Explicitly calling Mussolini an "MI5 agent" is pretty extraordinary. Given the extensiveness of scholarship on Mussolini, I'd like to see a proper scholarly source supporting this specific claim in context, rather than relying on a modern newspaper report that already gets things wrong (e.g. saying he "got his start in politics" in 1917 is ludicrous for the man who was made chief editor of Avanti! in 1912). Similarly, drawing a through line from British payments to his support of the breaking up of strikes would require a stronger source—especially when books suggest his position didn't actually change as a result of this external funding (e.g. ) Neither nor suggest this conversion to supporting strikebreaking either.
It's excessive detail for this top-level biography. We don't need to know the details of his pay or his handler in an article that's already some 14,000 words long (see WP:SIZERULE and WP:ONUS). It would be much more natural to include this in the wiki pages for Il Popolo and Hoare. Besides, we have no context for how important this pay was—if we had stats on the contributions from France, from Italian industry, or the general finances of the paper, it would fit more naturally. At the moment it's just a cash figure devoid of any context that might allow the reader to understand its significance (or lack thereof).
A quick survey of Mussolini biographies: while they typically do make explicit mention of Il Popolo's funding, they don't go into this sort of granular detail—Britain gets at the very most a passing mention. For example:
no mention of the paper's funding
mentions the paper's funding from various sources (Fiat, agrarian interests, Britain and France) but does not go into any numerical specifics
discusses the sources of funding but again without any specifics, stresses the variety of places from which funding came
similar to Neville: mentions both domestic and foreign, private and governmental funding, but no specifics.
mentions French and British subsidies, and actually mentions Hoare's funding of £100 a week—but as an incidental detail in the citation rather than the body, more interesting because of Hoare's later position than because of the actual funding.
Likewise none of these biographies make any mention of breaking strikes with veterans in 1917.
As such inclusion seems very WP:UNDUE to me: if numerous biographies with more luxurious space allowances give only passing mentions, then we shouldn't include such detail. If you have stronger sources, though, I'd love to see them.
There is no consensus to remove the sourced information, so please self-revert. I will present the additional sources for retaining the information before too long. I have been detained by activity elsewhere, but as I have learned the hard way before, no deadlines apply to responding on Misplaced Pages. VampaVampa (talk) 08:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the reply. I waited eight days between posting this initial request for discussion and making the edit—eight days in which you were actively editing on other pages of the Wiki. As such I assumed that you had divested of this discussion and so I opted to make the edit; in lieu of any reply from you to state your position and your delay, I hope you can understand why I made this assumption. Are you able to give any estimate of when you will have your sources ready? Thanks. Meluiel (talk) 13:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
That is a fair assumption. I will aim to summarise the sources within the next three days. For now let me note the general background difficulty present, which is that the period of Mussolini's activity during the later phase of WW1 is poorly covered by the article and needs to be properly made sense of using the available reliable sources before a good judgment can be passed on what is due and what is not. At the moment, the section on WW1 devotes disproportionate if not exclusive attention to the years 1914 and 1915, with the sole exception of combat activity under 1917. Similarly, the evolution of Mussolini's views, which comes into play directly with the problem of potential influence of external funding, lacks clear chronological attribution in the article (note e.g. the paragraph starting "Mussolini rejected egalitarianism..."). Looking forward to discussing the sources within the next few days. VampaVampa (talk) 14:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree a lot of this article is in pretty rough shape. I currently have another project on the go but if you wanted to look at a proper re-write I'd be more than happy to participate. Meluiel (talk) 14:32, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
That sounds good - I'd be interested in revising the 1914-1922 part, although this may take a while with other commitments. The evolution of views too, if sources permit. I'll welcome your help. But let me address your concerns first. VampaVampa (talk) 15:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
Awesome, agreed. Sources should be fine as long as we don't have to rely on A. James Gregor too much—it's Mussolini after all, hardly an obscure figure. The previously posted books by De Grand and Sternhall will certainly be useful. I look forward to reading your response to my concerns :) Meluiel (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
References
Neville, Peter (2014-09-15). Mussolini. Routledge. p. 34. doi:10.4324/9781315750736. ISBN978-1-315-75073-6. His already clear commitment to Italian intervention in the war also made it unlikely that the editorial position of his newspaper was actually influenced by those who funded him.
Grand, Alexander J. De (1989). Italian Fascism. Lincoln: Bison Books. ISBN978-0-8032-6578-3.
Sternhell, Zeev; Sznajder, Mario; Ashéri, Maia (1994). The Birth of Fascist Ideology. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. ISBN978-0-691-04486-6.
Nunca fue facista,era republicano,hace poco venia la historia verdadera,ustedes estan dejando que en wikipedia se cambie todo....y pasa con todos,eliminen ese candado...o aviso a Italia gravemente 79.116.112.142 (talk) 12:12, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Referencing and citation: criterion met
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Done: . JacktheBrown (talk) 04:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)